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revdodd
Revdodd  (Level: 68.7 - Posts: 775)
Tue, 12th Aug '08 9:04 AM

AFTER THE LATEST BROU-HA-HA WITH WPS...

Granted we'll never please everyone with topic, demeanor or in-depthedness.

I'd like to offer one possibility to solve a problem that, frankly, I didn't even know existed.

When a Platipuzzle appears, would it be possible to award that author the 5,000 points and just let them refrain from taking the quiz? That way no one complains about using the puzzle to improve their position in the quest to receive all those end-of-the-month goodies.



1mks
1mks  (Level: 211.2 - Posts: 5888)
Tue, 12th Aug '08 9:08 AM

You are indeed clever for so early in the morning. Sounds like a winner to me.

nelly
Nelly  (Level: 172.0 - Posts: 1167)
Tue, 12th Aug '08 9:23 AM

I seem to remember the editors saying that they could certainly award the 5,000 points to a player's overall total but they were unable to allocate them to a particular area. This was why it was agreed that players setting WPs would be able to take their own puzzles so that they would not lose out too much on the WP takers leaderboard for the month.

Sploofus Editor
(Editor)  
Tue, 12th Aug '08 9:27 AM

We discussed this at some length at the inception of the Platipuzz program, and in the absence of any ability to adjust points in specific categories, we decided the only way to ensure the points for a puzzle author who is also a competitive solver is to allow them to do the puzzle, but fill in all the letters. This removes any advantage from foreknowledge of the puzzle, as well as removing the risk of losing points, though forfeiting any bonus. An imperfect but workable compromise until something better can be arranged. We also felt there were things to be learned by taking the puzzle and seeing how it plays, for future reference.

What we need to do now is a better job of explaining that to our authors.

1mks
1mks  (Level: 211.2 - Posts: 5888)
Tue, 12th Aug '08 9:34 AM

On the puzzles that I have done......I do indeed fill in all the letters but halfway through I go ahead and click and that way 3 extra moves are longed in so normally I come in pretty close to the bottom but with all my points intact. BUT I think my biggest complaint is all the people that have their panties in a wad about their place on the leaderboards.....good grief! It is a game for heaven's sake and the points get us absolutely nil! Lighten up folks.......this is a place to gather with friends, blow off a little steam (hopefully NOT directed at other players) learn something new and just downright relax. So there!

barb1111
Barb1111  (Level: 104.1 - Posts: 215)
Tue, 12th Aug '08 9:34 AM

When I set my word puzzle, I just clicked on it to see what it looked like and then bailed. I thought that if I did the puzzle it would be really unfair to everyone else.

revdodd
Revdodd  (Level: 68.7 - Posts: 775)
Tue, 12th Aug '08 9:56 AM

Ahhh, thanks for the insight, Sploofanatic!

On mine, I fill in the letters and (I'm ashamed to admit) I actually finished one with 4,900 points. Sometimes we really do forget the puzzles!

And mks, whadya mean they're good for nothing? Haven't you put in for the Ginsu knives yet?

1mks
1mks  (Level: 211.2 - Posts: 5888)
Tue, 12th Aug '08 9:59 AM

I'm holding out for the "thigh master"..........

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Tue, 12th Aug '08 10:30 AM

Quick. Name the leaders of WPs, or any of the games, for the past 6 months.

Right - nobody does except the person him/herself and maybe the top few..

And then next month, it's all to do again. You get nothing. No medals, no trophies, no money, no fireworks. Nothing except personal satisfaction.

And personal satisfaction is worth criticizing, insulting, or blindly hurting another person for?

Here - I'm saying it. The wrong people are leaving.

smoke20
Smoke20  (Level: 62.6 - Posts: 2815)
Tue, 12th Aug '08 10:44 AM

Nobody should leave.

eesusbejesus
Eesusbejesus  (Level: 75.0 - Posts: 3645)
Tue, 12th Aug '08 11:02 AM

I have a thigh master.

slicko
Slicko  (Level: 223.9 - Posts: 1609)
Tue, 12th Aug '08 11:28 AM

Do you wear those really cool shorts when you're using your thigh master?

kaelin
Kaelin  (Level: 49.2 - Posts: 1685)
Tue, 12th Aug '08 11:43 AM

Slicko - ALWAYS Slicko

And how come noone ever complains about that? That's worth complaining about - how in the Hedoublehockeysticks does he know freaking everything.

Hurumph

there - now I feel better

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Tue, 12th Aug '08 12:18 PM

I just love the word "brou-ha-ha"

davidf
Davidf  (Level: 102.1 - Posts: 746)
Tue, 12th Aug '08 12:29 PM

I like the word brew ha ha

revdodd
Revdodd  (Level: 68.7 - Posts: 775)
Tue, 12th Aug '08 1:44 PM

Brew? Ha-ha!!!

rowlanda
Rowlanda  (Level: 70.0 - Posts: 2856)
Tue, 12th Aug '08 4:11 PM

Jank....
You get the Brou-ha-ha AND
the Big Wooden Spoon award !!!!

Judges are elected, not self-appointed !!!!

eesusbejesus
Eesusbejesus  (Level: 75.0 - Posts: 3645)
Tue, 12th Aug '08 4:12 PM

All of my shorts are cool. Some are even ventilated. But that's another story.

bbear
Bbear  (Level: 161.7 - Posts: 2301)
Tue, 12th Aug '08 5:44 PM

Which are the really cool ones? The super duper tight ones that show every goosebump or the really loose ones that show where the moon don't shine when you are on your thighmaster.

Okay, Slicko, if you do know everything you know the answer to that!

slicko
Slicko  (Level: 223.9 - Posts: 1609)
Wed, 13th Aug '08 5:55 AM

I do know the answer to that one - you can find it in the thread "In the spirit of community" about halfway down.

eesusbejesus
Eesusbejesus  (Level: 75.0 - Posts: 3645)
Wed, 13th Aug '08 8:35 AM



Sploofus Editor
Sploofernatural (Editor)  
Wed, 13th Aug '08 6:06 PM

Let's clear up a few things.

There is no hard and fast rule that a puzzle author must fill in every single square in his or her puzzle. Frankly, no editor wants to waste the time counting every distinct letter and calculating a minimum acceptable score to make sure they did so. Besides, if the puzzle is on a subject with some very hard-to-guess letters, many players may use more moves than that anyway.

What we do ask is that authors "not be competitive". Different editors may have different opinions of what this means, but mine is this. Pretend you were not the author of this puzzle. How well would you do? Do no better than this. For instance, if the puzzle is a five letter fruit, and you've guessed enough letters to get A__LE, I'm willing to believe that you could guess it without actually having to guess the P. I wouldn't fault you for that. On the other hand, given the fact that the puzzle is on a subject that you're familiar enough with to have written it, guess a few extra letters along the way to make sure that enough people out there will likely beat you.

Unfortunately, gaugeing a puzzle's difficulty is not an exact science. The incident of a few days ago was not the first time the author of the puzzle underestimated the difficulties most of you would have with it. Had he been able to see beforehand how many moves it was taking people, I'm sure he would have thrown in a few more.

By the way, here's another good reason authors should not be discouraged from taking their puzzles: They might find and report a previously overlooked error and report it before it costs you!

Again, don't get too upset if you see an author usurping your high spot in the standings. It's very easy for an editor to hit the reset button and take that score out of consideration.

kimoira
Kimoira  (Level: 202.3 - Posts: 1190)
Wed, 13th Aug '08 6:44 PM

OK this is news to me because I was under the impression that to be fair, we all had to "guess" every letter of every puzzle and fill them in.

Guess I'm reading Swahili again...

kimoira
Kimoira  (Level: 202.3 - Posts: 1190)
Wed, 13th Aug '08 6:47 PM

or maybe the left hand don't know what the right is up to...

bbear
Bbear  (Level: 161.7 - Posts: 2301)
Wed, 13th Aug '08 8:12 PM

I made that mistake once, thinking my puzzle was easier than I thought and coming in the top 10. I was right and properly bumped out by the editors, and I thank them for that.

I am so old and out of it that I have forgotten what I wrote by the time they come around anyway......

Sploofus Editor
(Editor)  
Wed, 13th Aug '08 10:52 PM

It may seem that Sploorfernatural and I are contradicting each other, but I think we're only articulating our own different methods for taking puzzles when we can't avoid prior knowledge of them. Other editors may say and do it differently, there is no set way. When I said "we" I should've said "I"; it can take a long time to get accustomed to speaking as the editorial "we" and once you do, you can sometimes forget to make it clear when you're speaking as an individual. My apologies for any confusion caused by my imprecision. MY method as a WP author has been to fill in all the letters, and I've so advised the authors with whom I've worked, and others.

The point is not to be competitive in your own puzzle, however you can manage it. For me, that means staying out of the top 10. Taking into consideration Sploofernatural's point about unusual letters, and considering that we've all had those extremely difficult puzzles that used up all the letters, my method may not be 100% reliable, may not have worked for Roby's puzzle or the Welsh castles, so if an author does their own puzzle and accidentally or unknowingly scores too well (ie, in the bonus point positions), they may certainly be reset and do it over if we're aware in time. But if we're not aware in time, we're talking about 500 points one way or the other that the author would likely have won legitimately anyway, so how upset do we really want to be about it?

We thought the most enthusiatic and competitive players would be the most likely to write puzzles, but that the loss of points from missing puzzles might be a disincentive to contribute. On the other hand, there is more than one kind of disincentive to contribution. Harsh, unconstructive criticism and accusations of cheating would certainly be on the list. This Platipuzz program is a grand experiment, in community as much as anything, and it's been a lot of fun learning to do something new and getting to know about each other in this new way. But nothing is programmed, nothing is written in code, or in stone. It's piggybacked onto one of our most popular features, and it's makeshift and imperfect. It's only successful if there is robust participation, with a high level of satisfaction and a low level of maintenance; I think it would be a terrible shame to discontinue it or have it wither away because of hurtful complaints and bickering.

kaelin
Kaelin  (Level: 49.2 - Posts: 1685)
Wed, 13th Aug '08 11:52 PM

"I think it would be a terrible shame to discontinue it or have it wither away because of hurtful complaints and bickering."

I concur - well said

papermanbill
Papermanbill  (Level: 41.3 - Posts: 1313)
Thu, 14th Aug '08 5:14 AM

I say, give the author 100,000 points for their time and trouble, ask Roby. I enjoy writing puzzles and it appears you enjoy them. When I did extra for my boss, I was taken care of. BTW, I don't care about points. When I hit a billion, I'm changing my screen name to SNOOKERBALLS.

Sploofus Editor
Sploofernatural (Editor)  
Thu, 14th Aug '08 6:00 AM

Our fear is that if we offered authors 100,000 points per WP, some people might begin churning out lower quality puzzles just so they could get those points. As it is, with no other incentives, the quality of these Platinum puzzles has been very high, and we'd hate to see it tumble just so their authors could collect a reward.

Then again, many of us wish there was a way to compensate you volunteers that wouldn't threaten the excellent quality of these puzzles.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Thu, 14th Aug '08 6:45 AM

But wouldn't you have the right to refuse to publish a WP if it's not up to standards? Seems that would cover that problem.

kaelin
Kaelin  (Level: 49.2 - Posts: 1685)
Thu, 14th Aug '08 7:04 AM

I don't have a problem taking it - filling in the letters and getting my 5k - it keeps me competitive as the editors pointed out - here's a hint for authors with the new system since it keeps whatever you type out in the box - I copy what I submitted - paste it in the box and go from left to right filling in the letters from the phrase (insuring that I don't accidentally put in a wrong letter) and when it's filled I click submit.

I'm not saying no to 100,000 points "overall", mind you - I still think we should get 100,000 i/o 10,000 for referring new people though (yes I know - another topic)



smoke20
Smoke20  (Level: 62.6 - Posts: 2815)
Thu, 14th Aug '08 9:39 AM

When I first started I thought referrals should be worth a lot more (100k sounded about right), but after thinking about it and seeing some of the things folks will do just to appear to win a WP, it occurred to me that if referrals were worth too much, there would be bogus referrals.

davidf
Davidf  (Level: 102.1 - Posts: 746)
Thu, 14th Aug '08 9:42 AM

Humus still bothers me

maurlin
Maurlin  (Level: 213.5 - Posts: 2672)
Thu, 14th Aug '08 10:33 AM

I do see a problem with an editor being given the authority to decide that a WP is "unworthy". Firstly, what is lousy to some editor may be just fine for another. Also, as long as the WP meets the rules for publication, how is an editor to judge QUALITY of content? I've read enough complaints because a writer doesn't feel that an editor is being fair in Trivia Quiz editing. I can't see Justin giving editors free reign to antagonize Platinum members because of a subjective decision.

bbear
Bbear  (Level: 161.7 - Posts: 2301)
Thu, 14th Aug '08 10:55 AM

How about no points and can't play it either? I love writing them, spend literally hours making sure they are well done and have no mistakes (still mess that up on occasion but thanks to a great editor the boo-boos get caught).

I just like making them. I love doing them, even ones I don't get. I will only worry about the whole silly point thing when I get closer to getting the pony.

kaelin
Kaelin  (Level: 49.2 - Posts: 1685)
Thu, 14th Aug '08 3:48 PM

Bbear - I reject your idea for "everyone" - if you don't want points/don't want to take okay - that leaves it at choice for you - but who writes a wp should have that choice too (to google or not to google - same principle)

This month I'm finally back in the running for top 20 and that's with having done a couple of wp's - if I skipped 3 days / wrote 3 wp's I wouldn't - I don't have much to hang my hat on since leaders by level is gone - so I want my WP points - my first two I didn't take - and dropped over 30 spots -- I want my spot.

Bear can have the pony - heck if they give me one she can have mine!

rowlanda
Rowlanda  (Level: 70.0 - Posts: 2856)
Thu, 14th Aug '08 10:53 PM

I agree with Linda....
If were an Editor - heaven forbid - there'd be
a good long list of topics I'd decline....
However, I do agree with what thy are doing
in screening them and making suggestions

kaelin
Kaelin  (Level: 49.2 - Posts: 1685)
Fri, 15th Aug '08 12:42 AM

I think all the editors are doing great - I have one coming up and I made a modification per the suggestion of my editor based on so many of the negative responses of late - and am grateful for that.

Taking into account regionality is something that many of us don't consider, and the editors have certainly had that experience. I think they work as hard on our WP's as we do.

Overall, I think the variety of puzzles has been quite enjoyable, even those I don't do well on - and I just hope that we are all able to continue taking them, making constructive comments when relevant - and not endanger the Plat Program!

I'm starting a collection for a pony for BBear.

slicko
Slicko  (Level: 223.9 - Posts: 1609)
Fri, 15th Aug '08 7:30 AM

Well put Lorri - I've had the same experience and really have appreciated my editors help in tweaking my puzzles. Agree with your other comments, too. Where do I send my check for the pony?
Gary

1mks
1mks  (Level: 211.2 - Posts: 5888)
Fri, 15th Aug '08 9:19 AM

Are we referring to a "pony keg" here? What type of beverage does it hold? Count me in if it's Mike's Hard Lemonade or sparking wine.

bbear
Bbear  (Level: 161.7 - Posts: 2301)
Fri, 15th Aug '08 10:56 AM

NONONO I wanna a real pony. Ya know, with a tail and ears and stuff.

But...booze will work instead.


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