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Sargon  (Level: 111.2 - Posts: 1256)
Fri, 10th Oct '08 4:16 PM


I have a friend that voluntered to serve in Viet Nam. He is pro life, anti flag burning, and I have seen him choke up when receiting the Pledge at a dedication ceremony. He sleeps with a gun under his pillow and doesn't understand why I don't.

Another friend and his wife had a child in the the 1960s. They didn't go to a hospital for the birth because they didn't want records of their son because they were going to be part of the coming revolution. He believes in choice, the right to freedom of speech, and "give peace a chance".

So doesn't matter what side of the fence I ran on there would always criticism of my associations.

It would scare me to have people in power that only talked to people that agreed with their own point of view.

A true leader can bring groups to together and get agreement.

Both of my friends have taught me a lot and I would hate to lose either one of them.

Smoke20  (Level: 62.6 - Posts: 2815)
Fri, 10th Oct '08 4:29 PM

For real. That's beautiful, man. Thanks.

Foogs  (Level: 264.8 - Posts: 848)
Fri, 10th Oct '08 5:28 PM

When I teach media law, and sometimes when I teach
intro to mass communication (the law section), I will
burn an American Flag. Once I put the flag on the floor and
stood on it.

Chugga. Chugga.

But before you label me a pinko, the flag I burn is a stamp
and the flag that I step on is a handkerchief I occasionally
use to blow my nose. I bought it at KMart.

Chugga. Chugga.

I love getting my students to discuss the flag burning
amendment, because by the end of the semester I have
usually changed the minds of students who initially
thought it sounded like a good idea.

(Oh the dangers of the liberal college professor!)

Chugga Chugga

Impossible to define desecration. Impossible to define
flag. Impossible to determine intent. Impossible to kill an

I could never be president because one of my students
would tell FOX that I burned a flag in class just to
make a point and I'd be branded as un-American.

Dammit! Oh well, I didn't want to be president anyway.

Bbear  (Level: 159.3 - Posts: 2301)
Fri, 10th Oct '08 5:55 PM

We have two couples that we hang out with on weekend.

Couple #1 - early 60ish, old hippies, former draft card and bra burners, members of the Green Party, pro-family, pro-choice, wants the troops out now, supports Obama

Couple #2 - early 40ish, ultraconservative, registered Repubs, one's a cop, anti-choice, supports the war, supports McCain

Us - early 50ish, way left of center but registered Democrats, pro-choice, wants the troops out quickly but safely, supports Obama.

We get along just fine, and don't ignore political issues. I just wonder of having a relationship with either of the couples would get me in trouble on Fox News if I chose to run for something.

Foogs, where do you teach? I wanna come to your class!

Fudypatootie  (Level: 194.5 - Posts: 1302)
Fri, 10th Oct '08 5:55 PM

But isn't there a difference between knowing someone and running an organization started by that person, launching your political career in that person's home, and accepting donations from that person? Doesn't that imply you are okay with that person's political beliefs?

Papermanbill  (Level: 41.3 - Posts: 1313)
Fri, 10th Oct '08 5:57 PM

Foogs, I have to give you credit teaching the do's and don't's of the First Amendment, it really must get interesting.
Here's a question you may want to ask a class or even just a friend. Question: If there was such a thing as a real time machine, would you have ever heard of flag burning or whatever is done to disrespect our flag, if you were living in the
40's or 50's...As a seven or eight year old boy, I remember how proud everyone was standing alongside State Street in downtown Chicago welcoming the troops home from Korea. I also remember everyone saluting General MacArthur when
he passed by in his convertible. To my knowledge, except for Christmas and St.Patrick's Day, Chicago hasn't had a parade in quite awhile. Times do change.

Smoke20  (Level: 62.6 - Posts: 2815)
Fri, 10th Oct '08 6:00 PM

Yes, we should end wars and have parades more often.

Sargon  (Level: 111.2 - Posts: 1256)
Fri, 10th Oct '08 6:46 PM

One picture that has always fanscinated me is a Civil War image of Lincoln sitting next to a table in a tent with a Union officer. The American Flag is being used as a table cloth. Was Lincoln guilty of dishonoring the flag?

Bbear  (Level: 159.3 - Posts: 2301)
Fri, 10th Oct '08 7:09 PM

Chicago has the Gay Pride parade every year; would I be dissed if I decided to go watch?

Snookerballs  (Level: 37.9 - Posts: 35)
Fri, 10th Oct '08 8:08 PM

The Gay Pride is on the Northside of the city. Thousands of all persuasions attend and have fun, I am told. There are also
Mexican and Puerto Rican parades but they are not in the downtown area. There is also the Bud Billikin parade on the Southside for the black community.

Foogs  (Level: 264.8 - Posts: 848)
Fri, 10th Oct '08 8:36 PM

Sorry ahead of time if this sounds like a lecture (though it sort of is):
I’m not sure I’m enough of a historian to answer your question, Bill.

I do sometimes have students read an article on the Vietnam War that
argues against the conventional wisdom that the media was to blame
for America’s lack of will

Instead the author says that over the course of the war the range of
ideas that could be discussed and advocated expanded. To use your
example, it wasn’t acceptable in the 40s and 50s to even suggest that
America might be wrong, or to question the rectitude of the CIA’s
subversive actions in Guatemala and Iran. To question such
fundamental beliefs, especially during the Cold War, was to be unpatriotic
and it could cost you your livelihood. (Sound familiar)

But as the Vietnam War progressed, and as people learned what the
government was doing in the name of democracy, it became easier to
question, and critics, even those on the edges like Ayers, became more
credible. When the media reported those criticisms and provided a forum
for emboldened protestors, they expanded even more the range of
viewpoints in the country.

Flag burning could probably be explained in a similar way. Few people
would have even considered burning a flag in the 40s and 50s. Partly
because it would have meant jail and a beating by the police, but because
a group could get their point across without going nuclear, so to speak.

In the 60s it was harder to be outrageous (rock and roll and all that) so
to get attention you had to do the outrageous in order to make your
point. And just to make a different point here: burning a flag is speech.
A Supreme Court justice called it an incoherent grunt, but speech
nonetheless. And as the range of criticism was broader, so too was our
acceptance (still with some limitations) of types of speech.

As for Sargon’s observation: I’m curious what happened between the
1860s and the 1960s that would have made the flag sacrosanct. The
nationalism of the Spanish-American War might explain it in part. Compare
it to what has changed since 9-11. It’s no longer not just enough to doff your
hat, bow your head and sing the National Anthem. Now, if you don’t put your
hand over your heart people start whispering.

Papermanbill  (Level: 41.3 - Posts: 1313)
Fri, 10th Oct '08 9:18 PM

That 1860-1960 thing is something to think about. You are right on with other era facts. After a little thought, I have come to this conclusion. If medical standards would be as they are now, I would've liked to have grown up and lived during my grandfather's time 1888-1959. Except for WW I and the Depression, it seemed like a good time. I would've liked to work
for Al Capone, too. My dad, father-in-law and grandfather all had good stories about him.

Rowlanda  (Level: 70.0 - Posts: 2856)
Fri, 10th Oct '08 11:45 PM

The Al Capone and Jimmy Hoffa Fan Club !!!!
Now I'll never get to vote for
You have put yourself beyond the pale !!!!

Papermanbill  (Level: 41.3 - Posts: 1313)
Sat, 11th Oct '08 10:24 AM

Behind the Palin. Rowlanda, you have to have lived here to understand my "sometimes" erratic thinking. You just
mentioned two Robin Hoods of the 20th Century, Trust me. My 60's hero is looking like he may get my vote again.
The other two are playing games with desperate citizens. BTW, I have voted Communist in the past, too. And Libertarian.

Revdodd  (Level: 68.7 - Posts: 775)
Sat, 11th Oct '08 1:44 PM

I have a picture of one of our old family friends, wrapped in a banner with the letters "KKK" on it. I've also got an authentic Klan belt buckle he gave me. Clearly, associating with him (even though he's passed on for a good 10 years) would keep me from office.

Of course, there's more to the story. He was one of the Lumbees that broke up the rally in Maxton, NC 50 years ago (and subject of the quiz I wrote on it.) He was also the first Native American decorated for combat mission flown over Europe in World War II. He took the Klan banner to the state VFW meeting in Charlotte then night after the "Battle of Hayes Mill" showing it to other minority veterans and telling them that they have nothing to fear from the "bedsheet boys" any longer.

But if all you look at is one image (which you can see at ...DANG! that's a lonnng one!) then make your decisions, he's pretty muchly scuttled me. Good thing I have this autographed copy of Lester Maddox's album to keep me going.

Salzypat  (Level: 154.4 - Posts: 5295)
Sat, 11th Oct '08 7:57 PM

Revdodd, that was a magnificent piece of writing. I enjoyed reading every word. You have a easy-reading style. And what a triumph for the community.

A lot of people don't know it, but the KKK was quite active in the mid 1920s in the small towns of Nebraska. Two of the finest Christian women I've ever known were members in its heyday in the town where I grew up. They were talking about it at Bible study one afternoon and I asked how they could be Christian and be affiliated with such an organization. They said they were told it was only organized to campaign against a presidential candidate. They were appalled when they learned of the organization's true tenets.

By the way, Papermanbill, when Jimmy Hoffa disappeared, they even looked for him in the Sandhills of Nebraska. There was a ranch in north central Nebraska that reportedly had some connections to Chicago and enemies of Hoffa. I don't recall if they dug some of the place up or not. Sections and sections of stubby grasses and knobby hills all look the same as far as the eye can see. It would be impossible to find anyone buried out there.

Also, here's another FYI for you. Back in its wilder days, North Platte was known as Little Chicago, because reportedly the gangsters from Chicago came out here when things got too hot for them in Chicago.

Texlewee  (Level: 34.1 - Posts: 601)
Sat, 11th Oct '08 8:28 PM

Personally, I've never agreed with a constitutional amendment to abolish flag burning.

Violates freedom of speech. I'm a constitutionalist more than I am a conservative.

But, with your freedom to practice your first amendment right to burn the flag comes my first amendment right to call you an idiot.

Often, ( and this isn't a pro Pubby rant here, just a comment on people in general) people mistake their freedom to do something as inoculation from being criticized for it.

You have the freedom to say stupid things. I have the freedom to call you an idiot. And the converse is true as well.

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