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1mks  (Level: 221.1 - Posts: 5930)
Mon, 20th Oct '08 4:54 PM


Here is something that should cause a lot of introspection by every voter in America . It should go around the country... twice! It appeared in an article written by Charlie Reese of the Orlando Sentinel.

Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them. Have you ever wondered why, if both the Democrats and the Republicans are against deficits, we have deficits? Have you ever wondered why, if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, we have inflation and high taxes?

You and I don't propose a federal budget. The president does. You and I don't have the Constitutional authority to vote on appropriations. The House of Representatives does.

You and I don't write the tax code, Congress does.

You and I don't set fiscal policy, Congress does.

You and I don't control monetary policy, The Federal Reserve Bank does.

One hundred senators, 435 congressmen, one president and nine Supreme Court justices - 545 human beings out of the 300 million - are directly, legally, morally and individually responsible for the domestic problems that plague this country.

I excluded the members of the Federal Reserve Board because that problem was created by the Congress. In 1913, Congress delegated its Constitutional duty to provide a sound currency to a federally chartered but private central bank.

I excluded all the special interests and lobbyists for a sound reason. They have no legal authority. They have no ability to coerce a senator, a congressman or a president to do one cotton-picking thing.

I don't care if they offer a politician $1 million dollars in cash. The politician has the power to accept or reject it. No matter what the lobbyist promises, it is the legislator's responsibility to determine how she or he votes.

Those 545 human beings spend much of their energy convincing you that what they did is not their fault. They cooperate in this common con regardless of party.

What separates a politician from a normal human being is an excessive amount of gall. No normal human being would have the gall of a Speaker, who stood up and criticized the President for creating deficits.

The president can only propose a budget. He cannot force the Congress to accept it.

The Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, gives sole responsibility to the House of Representatives for originating and approving appropriations and taxes.

Who is the speaker of the House? She is the leader of the majority party. She and fellow House members, not the president, can approve any budget they want.

If the president vetoes it, they can pass it over his veto if they agree to.

It seems inconceivable to me that a nation of 300 million cannot replace 545 people who stand convicted -- by present facts - of incompetence and irresponsibility. I can't think of a single domestic problem that is not traceable directly to those 545 people.

When you fully grasp the plain truth that 545 people exercise the power of the federal government, then it must follow that what exists is what they want to exist.

If the tax code is unfair, it's because they want it unfair. If the budget is in the red, it's because they want it in the red. If the Marines are in IRAQ, it's because they want them in IRAQ.

There are no insoluble government problems.

Do not let these 545 people shift the blame to bureaucrats, whom they hire and whose jobs they can abolish; to lobbyists, whose gifts and advice they can reject; to regulators, to whom they give the power to regulate and from whom they can take this power.

Above all, do not let them con you into the belief that there exists disembodied mystical forces like 'the economy,' 'inflation' or 'politics' that prevent them from doing what they take an oath to do.

Those 545 people, and they alone, are responsible.

They, and they alone, have the power.

They, and they alone, should be held accountable by the people who are their bosses - provided the voters have the gumption to manage their own employees.

We should vote all of them out of office and clean up their mess!

And keep in mind, this Congress only worked 93 days last year! The shortest season in history and at a time when we are at war and the economy is tumbling!

Rowlanda  (Level: 70.0 - Posts: 2853)
Mon, 20th Oct '08 5:40 PM

Well said Marsha (and Charlie)

I tried to say something like that in my many posts
but never did as well....

We need Government otherwise it would be a free-for-all.
The winners would be the strong and powerful - exactly
as happens in the so-called Third World countries....

Democracy requires a watchful public.... who believe in and
practise Christian Principles - with Generosity, Tolerance
and Integrity.

Kaelin  (Level: 49.2 - Posts: 1685)
Mon, 20th Oct '08 6:04 PM

Wow Marsha - thanks. I was explaining to my kids the negativity of living in a socialist society this morning. My family is a great example of at least 4 "kinds of families" in this country.

My brother, and his wife, are legally blind. They have SSI - not because they want it, but because they need it. My brother is an amazing artist, and used to work for an auto painter. The Civil Liberties laws on employing the handicap were a detriment to my brother, because even though he was the best there, he was slow - and after 12 years, the auto company decided that he was a danger - even though there were customers who would come in, understood my brother's site issues, but still wanted him to take care of it. He began working on the side with his own business (I come from a family of entrepreneurs) - but he could not make enough, and every little bit he made, he lost a percentage of his SSI benefits. That plus the undocumented workers that the auto company he worked for began hiring, began doing "jobs on the side". They charge less that my brother can even buy the paint without making accusations, some assumptions can be made.

My husband and I, up until January made about 60k a year. That certainly does not put us in a wealthy bracket, but my husband had the same job for 17 years and worked his way up to the top of the pay scale. We had pension, 401k opportunities with partial matching, and insurance that cost us 1% of his salary plus our deductibles which was pretty damn good. He decided that he wanted to quit because "he didn't feel like working anymore and he was sick of the executives who had worked their way up the ladder getting 125k a year and it "wasn't fair". As a truck driver, you have a level of skill - and a good truck drive is hard to find. So now I am faced with a blue collar mentality that people who go pay to college and learn "bookwork" and move themselves up to better jobs are "scum" who don't deserve what they get. Mind you, some of these people in the company started out as truck drivers, educated themselves and moved on up the ladder...shame on them.
I have my own business, which I built with the specific purpose of achieving just enough to put away for my kid's college and having maybe a little extra - but to be there for my kids - and not have them raised by someone else - not criticizing those that have to - but that was important to me.

My dad, has had his own business since I was 11. He has built a reputation for himself as a professional engineer (because he is THAT good) that when a proposal goes in, people want to make sure he's on board because his name carries that much weight and respect, which he has earned. I really don't know how much my 69 year old Dad makes, but he worked like a dog to get where he is, and he has earned it and deserves it.

My youngest brother, 12 years younger than I am, makes an amount of money that I'm not sure of either, but definitely falls into the over 250k bracket that Obama wants to take from and redistribute the wealth. He worked for years to build his income, buy a nice home, and got married. At 33, he felt secure enough that he would be able to take care of himself and his wife and they started a family (my nephew is now 4 months old). The point is, he thought out and planned his life to reach this point - do I think that he should have to pay more taxes so that they go to me because I have less income? No

That runs the course of the closest people to me in my life, and each of their positions. Now the question that I asked my children after going through all of this was "So since Bubba makes so much money, do you think it's his job to take care of us because we don't make as much money or because your Dad doesn't want to work at a good paying job anymore".

Prior to that - they thought "well those rich people can afford it (their Dad's mentality)" but when put on a personal level - the light dawned because they know how hard my Dad and how hard my brother worked for what they have. It's a whole different when you put real faces on those evil rich people.

And my 14 year old son said it best in summation "It seems that people would be lazy if those other people were taking care of them so they did not have to work, that would just be unfair." Then he got quiet and then said "if people don't try to work, or don't try to use their brains, how can new things be thought up?" I said what do you mean. He said "what if the person that is getting money from the rich guy is supposed to be the person that cures cancer (we lost a friend Friday night to lukemia) - if they don't ever do anything, then will that die with them and then no one finds a cure?"

I thought that was a great question.

Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4593)
Mon, 20th Oct '08 7:02 PM

Wow to all.

Then they expect us to be grateful that they merely promise to fix it, while making it worse. Consistently. Always worse.

I'm going to go hug my cats...and contemplate what I can do.

Salzypat  (Level: 162.6 - Posts: 5425)
Mon, 20th Oct '08 7:25 PM

Kaelin, what is your 14-year-old son's first name? I want to write him in for president. What he said makes more sense than anything I've heard so far from either candidate.

Chickfbref1  (Level: 120.7 - Posts: 2011)
Mon, 20th Oct '08 7:44 PM

The assumption that all people who need assistance are lazy is preposterous and narrow minded.

My mom worked for United Airlines for 30 years. She took pay cuts for the last 10. Her "retirement" package that she worked for her whole life is a joke because her retirement package was based on United stock (insert laugh track here).

My dad worked his whole life for a company that screwed him over.

Not everyone that needs help is lazy or looking for a handout. Some people just need a bootstrap to pull themselves up.


Alvandy  (Level: 242.0 - Posts: 7724)
Mon, 20th Oct '08 9:12 PM

From Wikipedia:
Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and the creation of an egalitarian society. Modern socialism originated in the late nineteenth-century working class political movement. Karl Marx posited that socialism would be achieved via class struggle and a proletarian revolution which represents the transitional stage between capitalism and communism.
Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital, and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.

The Wealth Distribution

In the United States, wealth is highly concentrated in a relatively few hands. As of 2001, the top 1% of households (the upper class) owned 33.4% of all privately held wealth, and the next 19% (the managerial, professional, and small business stratum) had 51%, which means that just 20% of the people owned a remarkable 84%, leaving only 16% of the wealth for the bottom 80% (wage and salary workers). In terms of financial wealth, the top 1% of households had an even greater share: 39.7%. Table 1 and Figure 1 present further details drawn from the careful work of economist Edward N. Wolff at New York University (2004).


Why are some throwing around the word socialism so much? There is nothing in Obama/ Biden's campaign to promote "socialism", just a return to fairness and a re invigoration of the middle class and hope for the American dream.

The USA is a market-based; capitalistic economy but based on a concept that government should seek to "form a more perfect union" along with our history of 250 plus years of democracy.. Basically, in the past few decades, too much wealth has been accumulated into the hands of too few. [see above stats].

In another thread [545 people by Charlie Reese], the writer said to vote out the 545 "politicians" and clean up the mess.
Okay- with WHO?
545 wealthy folks or 545 very poor folks or a mixture of all classes?
I don't know one "poor" political leader in Congress, although there are some incumbents who came from a background that allows them to appreciate those who are struggling. Many, however, have come from a privileged background . Their view of the role of government is different, of course.

So, do we continue down the same road that seems to guarantee a two class society instead of three?
What's in your wallet?

This message has been approved by alvandy, not a socialist , but dedicated to the principles of truth, justice and the American way.

Gerryn  (Level: 18.7 - Posts: 141)
Mon, 20th Oct '08 9:17 PM

The views expressed in these chat forums are extremely interesting and passionate. I'm the one chickfref was talking about...Trust me folks. There isn't one soul I know from my generation who wants a "free ride". We are to proud of that and the last thing I would want is to live with my kids or become a burden to the taxpayers (of which I'm one)

Chickfref's dad stopped working before he turned 50 due to a horrific illness. Thank God for Angels of Mercy (Hospice). They made it possible for me to continue to work and pay the bills. No company help, no 401K's no medicare. just a . sh...load of bills and just 4 wonderful Angels who got our family through a rough period.

Not everyone who falls upon tough times is lazy. Just ask me.

In addition if I were lazy non-productive US citizen, how could I have raised the intelligent, eloquent, and yes sometimes "challenging" young woman you all know...

1mks  (Level: 221.1 - Posts: 5930)
Mon, 20th Oct '08 9:51 PM

I'm worried most about the economy and what this crap is doing to those that have worked their butts off for years. What do you think is going to happen to any 401 k.....teacher retirement, anything that we have tried to save? I am truly sorry that there are people that go to bed hungry every night and believe me, I see some of those people everyday.......children that are hungry....actually hungry. In his speech the other night Obama was saying that he wants to see that stop......(while his wife that very night was in the hotel room ordering 2 steamed lobsters and Iranian caviar).......that should not even be a political issue.......I give all I can afford to the food bank here, I have bought coats for children that had no coats. Some of this is human decency for each other. I am really tired of the backbiting and throwing barbs at people. This is the first and last time I will post ANYTHING to do with the terrible state of affairs that we find ourselves in now. There should be no politics played out in what each of us want for this country. Quite frankly, I do not like either candidate.....BUT I do think that this is going to get a whole lot worse before it gets better.....and it will take us years to recover. We are in deep financial trouble and it is going to be hell to get us out of it. I think politics stink......I do not have any answers......but I do look at each and every one of the fat cats in Congress.....both frigging parties....and who are they out for? Not us, not the ones that get up and go to work every morning.....Like I said, I don't have any answers, I am just very afraid for all of us, regardless of what party we are supporting.... because the American workers are the ones that will suffer the most. Nite, I'm done..........and I'm scared as hell.

Smoke20  (Level: 62.6 - Posts: 2812)
Mon, 20th Oct '08 10:05 PM

And in all this fear and uncertainty, what the hell does Michelle Obama's dinner got to do with anything? A google of the words "while his wife that very night was in the hotel room ordering 2 steamed lobsters and Iranian caviar" reveals that this vital information is high on the agenda for Republicans.

Of course, I'm quite sure Cindy McCain has never in her life let her lips touch lobster or caviar.

Gimme break already.

1mks  (Level: 221.1 - Posts: 5930)
Mon, 20th Oct '08 10:16 PM

Once again, you twist things and start trying to take it personally. You should be equally afraid of where this country is headed regardless of what anyone is frigging eating. Okay, read it again and leave that sentence out. Do you just not GET it?

Kaelin  (Level: 49.2 - Posts: 1685)
Mon, 20th Oct '08 10:27 PM

actually the most annoying thing out of Michelle Obama's mouth was how they couldn't afford to give their daughter's piano lessons on their income...I'm proud to say that I just paid off my son's 2500.00 sax - he's first chair and on his way to a scholarship in music -- I eat Ramen Noodles most of the time....

And Chick - I don't think everyone is lazy....the problem is I know where I live even the small town that it is, and where I grew up in Dallas - the people truly in need are not the ones that get the help.

Too many of them have this new found "attitude" my husband has....the simple fact is there is not a good enough system in place for pisses me off when illegals are treated immediately, and can get CHIPS from Texas - and I'm STILL waiting for my kids to be approved since January....

Sorry - I stand by what I say - personal experience colors everything in our lives...and I appreciate where you are coming from Chick & your mom - but instead of being aggrevated at what I say - be aggrevated at the continued mis-distribution that has gone on for years to people who should be working - and don't

Smoke20  (Level: 62.6 - Posts: 2812)
Mon, 20th Oct '08 10:37 PM

"Once again"? And how am I taking it personally?

Smoke20  (Level: 62.6 - Posts: 2812)
Mon, 20th Oct '08 10:45 PM

I did read it again, and again, the reason that comment caught my eye is that it seems so at odds with the rest of what you're saying about being tired of the backbiting and throwing barbs. It seemed like a gratuitous shot.

In my opinion, the fact that Michelle Obama can afford lobster does not indicate in any way that her husband doesn't genuinely care about people in need.

Chickfbref1  (Level: 120.7 - Posts: 2011)
Mon, 20th Oct '08 11:08 PM

We all view everything from our own "window", we see things through our own eyes.

Lorri, I was just responding to how you see things, it's radically different than my view. We all have different perspectives, and that's what makes the world go around.

I think a healthy diatribe about political issues is fabulous, if it makes you think. If not and everyone just postures to impose their own views it's caustic.

I'm worse off than I was 8 years ago, and my 401K statement proves it. I'm happy for you if you are.


Smoke20  (Level: 62.6 - Posts: 2812)
Mon, 20th Oct '08 11:32 PM

Lucimoore  (Level: 194.2 - Posts: 1738)
Mon, 20th Oct '08 11:47 PM

Crap almighty! Man am I glad I didn't go on the death float and think I would be a friend.

Smoke20  (Level: 62.6 - Posts: 2812)
Mon, 20th Oct '08 11:50 PM

It's very confusing. I thought I had a great time while I was there. Everybody hugged me when we said goodbye.

Dunno what happened.

Salzypat  (Level: 162.6 - Posts: 5425)
Tue, 21st Oct '08 12:43 AM

1mks, I'm glad you posted the article. It puts many things in perspective.

you find on local levels so many running for election to a board or office will promise this and the other, and when they get in office they find out they have a notebook 10 inches thick full of laws that tell them why they can't fulfill their campaign promises.

I, too, am concerned about our country's future, no matter who wins the election. I suspect we are in for a bumpy ride for a few months or perhaps years. But I am also encouraged by the wisdom of Kaelin's 14 year old. There's hope on the horizon! There are many good young people coming up in the ranks.

Corruption and self-serving is truly non-partisan. Consider the financial mess we are in right now. Some of us who are older remember the ways of World War II - "Make it over, use it up, make do or do without." It won't be nearly as hard for us to adjust to pinching the pennies as it ill for some of today's young people who have spent far beyond their means. Not all, but a good portion of the younger generation has.

As to what Michelle Obama was ordering, perhaps people's concern is that her husband is saying one thing publicly and she is doing something different in private. As if they are the first and only politicians to ever do that!!! Nothing too scandalous here.

It doesn't matter whether you are talking about the Obamas or the McCains or any other politican, there is no way on earth they can escape criticism from somebody somewhere. After the election is over, the loser will shake hands and "make up" with the winner and pledge to support the winner. I hope we will be able to do that on the Island.

Luvnmexsun  (Level: 147.4 - Posts: 711)
Tue, 21st Oct '08 12:50 AM

I read this entire thread...agreed with some. Al, your post was amazing and rational...thank you.

Chick, thank you for a personal rebuttal of fact. There are many in this country that work hard, and still can't make it. I respect you and your parents, and the 30% of homeless people in this country that work 60 to 80 hours a week for minimum wages and still can't afford decent food and a place to live. If you are interested in this true "American" experience, read the book, Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting by in America by Barbara Ehrenreich, or at least read the article published in Harper's:

Then read Al's post again.

Not much else in this thread, but personal fear and stereotyping. Though, fortunately I am LIBERAL enough that I accept your right to your viewpoint and the right to speak it. (It's in caps, because I refuse to see the label as a dirty word.)

Then I came to this:
“Donna, I'm sick of you using Sploofus for your personal soapbox and attacking anyone who has a different opinion than you. I'm done. Tell Justin he can thank you for the loss of more revenue and another long time Sploofuser.”

I cannot find the “attack” and I see that everyone else seems to have the “personal soapbox” down pat (repeated frequently). Why did you single out Donna? She disagreed and stated her opinion. Everyone gets to do that, except her? How grossly unfair. That IS an attack, obviously personal, because I don’t see the cause here.

I am still shaking my head in disbelief…what the hell is this all about anyway?

I will defend your right to your opinion, but not to single out someone and insult them.


Gerryn  (Level: 18.7 - Posts: 141)
Tue, 21st Oct '08 10:24 AM

Sun, hope you don't leave sploofus.....It appears everyone needs a voice of reason....Chick got me into Sploofus for fun.....Bashing one another is not only unintelligent and a waste of time and in the I care who eats what?????....I hate fish and mushrooms for that fact and pineapple and and veal and just about every food I was forced to endure as a child....

Hope you all have a wonderful, happy day.

PS...Chick doesn't eat mushrooms either

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