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salzypat
Salzypat  (Level: 156.5 - Posts: 5316)
Thu, 6th Nov '08 10:49 AM

PRESIDENT BUSH

I'm hoping I am not starting World War III on the island with this post, but when I read it I realized it said a lot of the things I believe. I'm not saying President Bush hasn't made some poor decisions or that he hasn't followed bad advice from those closest to him. And I definitely am not happy about the economy and the state of my 401k - or more correctly, the lack of state of my 401k.

What I am saying is similar to what I heard on one of the news networks during the night .... that 25-30 years down the road we will have a better perspective of President Bush's terms in office.

I hope some of you will have an open mind and just read the article because I think it makes some valid points. Then you can agree or disagree, politely and respectfully.


This article published in the Wall Street Journal is by Jeffrey Shapiro, an investigative reporter and lawyer who previously interned with John F. Kerry's legal team during the presidential election in 2004.

NOVEMBER 5, 2008
The Treatment of Bush Has Been a Disgrace
What must our enemies be thinking?
By Jeffrey Scott Shapiro

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122584386627599251.html



donden
Donden  (Level: 112.5 - Posts: 2127)
Thu, 6th Nov '08 11:03 AM

Sorry Pat, they said to wait 25-30 years before judging Nixon also and he is still a dork.

garrybl
Garrybl  (Level: 280.2 - Posts: 6644)
Thu, 6th Nov '08 11:53 AM

Again as a non-citizen (but one who has sworn not to apply for citizenship till bush is out of office) I may not have the right perspective.
I say look at his world standing; 8 years ago the US had a surplus and was looked up to by more than half the world.
Now we have record deficits and precisely three countries in the world wanted Republican over Democrat; the suprise? That there as many as three.
I know it may bring down the wrath of the insular to suggest that USA should consider other people than themselves - - look at what happened to Justice Kennedy when he dared to suggest that other people's legal codes might have an impact on what the US could or should do. But perhaps other people's perspective is clearer than our own?

kaelin
Kaelin  (Level: 49.2 - Posts: 1685)
Thu, 6th Nov '08 12:14 PM

It was a good article.



pepperdoc
Pepperdoc  (Level: 152.5 - Posts: 4286)
Thu, 6th Nov '08 1:32 PM

Thanks, Pat, that was an interesting article.

bbear
Bbear  (Level: 161.7 - Posts: 2301)
Thu, 6th Nov '08 2:35 PM

Well written, but.....

One of the things I like to do, Pat, when I travel, is visit Presidential libraries. I have seen Reagan, Truman, Kennedy, George H.W. Bush and the Clinton libraries. They are amazing, fascinating places to learn more about certain eras than you can imagine.

What on earth is W's legacy going to be? What can he possibly put in his library?

The man has disgraced an entire nation, has proven us to be baffoons, has tanked the economy, has created an unnecessary war which has killed our kids, caused us to completely lose face to the entire planet; that is not the legacy I would like to see in our nation's leader.

pennwoman
Pennwoman  (Level: 155.2 - Posts: 2478)
Thu, 6th Nov '08 2:51 PM

I have two words for you
John Kerry
now, thats really scary!

I think one person is as responsible for the state of the country as much as Santa is responsible for Christmas. I agree, that when history looks back, President Bush, will be vindicated, if not completely at least to some degree. And dont forget, 8 years ago was pre 911. With out it, things would be drastically different. I firmly believe there are no simple answers or solutions and I certainly am not equipped to remedy them.

salzypat
Salzypat  (Level: 156.5 - Posts: 5316)
Thu, 6th Nov '08 3:19 PM

Bbear, I don't agree that Bush alone has disgraced an entire nation and has proven us to be buffoons, He had plenty of help from other Republicans and Democrats, more interested in their own agendas than the country's.

I think Pennwoman said it best, "I think one person is as responsible for the state of the country as much as Santa is responsible for Christmas .... And dont forget, 8 years ago was pre 9/11. Without it, things would be drastically different."

Perhaps if the bombing of the World Trade Center in the early 1990s had been taken more seriously, there would not have been a 9/11. But since there was a 9/11, a lot of things changed in this country.

I think Bush trusted people he shouldn't have, but I don't think he created this "unnecessary war" for the purpose of killing our kids. I have to think that he made the best decision he could with the information he had for his use at the time. Can we look back and say it was false information and he made wrong choices? Probably. But everyone's hindsight is 20/20.

I'm still going to stick with my original statement: I think sometime down the road, if the history books tell the truth in hindsight, people will see that Bush was wiser than he was portrayed during his 8 years. Not the wisest, or the best president, but better than his legacy is going to be in the next few years.




jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Thu, 6th Nov '08 8:19 PM

Great article. And I totally agree with Pat and Martina. And the WSJ.

And "Santa responsible for Christmas" made me laugh.

donden
Donden  (Level: 112.5 - Posts: 2127)
Thu, 6th Nov '08 9:31 PM

Well I think we can all agree that "W" will never be remembered as one of the great ones. But then he was only emulating daddy who's only claim to fame was puking in front of whole world.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Thu, 6th Nov '08 9:37 PM

I just wonder if Bush's staff will steal all the letter "O" keys off the all the computer keyboards when they leave, the way Clinton's staff stole all the letter "W" keys?

And how different the uproar from the media would be if they did, from how cute and clever the media thought it was 8 years ago.

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 12:25 AM

You don't need a lot of time to see that the young Bush showed no regard for the U.S. Constitution and committed crimes against it which Nixon would never have dreamed of on his most diabolical day. The gutless Democrats who refused to bring the man up on impeachment charges are also disgraces. I can't see history vindicating this smug little elitist, who had everything in life handed to him. I could barely restrain myself from vomiting when I would listen to him lecture about getting ahead on your own merits. I say he is the worst president in U.S. history, bar none. Maybe the neo-cons at "The Wall Street Journal" will be able to rehabilitate him, but I doubt it.

fudypatootie
Fudypatootie  (Level: 197.3 - Posts: 1302)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 12:39 AM

History can look at a person in a much different light than their contemporaries do. One particular ranking of presidents by university historians ranked the top and bottom presidents. Bill Clinton made #4 best and #3 worst. Historians have political ideologies as well.

I do think it will take more than 30 years for Bush to rise above being ranked lowest, but most historians do not even rank Hoover in the top 10 worst, and he was president when the Great Depression began. But of course, like Bush, Hoover did not single-handedly cause the depression. Considering the economic downturn that has hit much of the world and saying it was ALL caused by President Bush is remarkable, considering how little ability his detractors think he has. So, let me get this straight, he's an idiot, but he was smart enough to find a way to bring down the world's economy. Bull!

What I find interesting is that on other threads, Obama supporters have asked McCain supporters to give the President-elect the respect he deserves, and I totally agree with that. I did not vote for the man, but come January, he will be my President and I will respect him as such. I see no such respect given to Bush by Democrats.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 5:58 AM

I'm just tired of people now saying that we all have to get behind our President. And then slam the President we still have in office. You either feel one way or the other. Don't ask people to get behind the guy from Kenya (his name escapes me at the moment) if you are slamming President Bush. This is not directed to the OP, just people that look silly be inconsistent in their message. God bless America and the blue states as well. Good Day.

loveland
Loveland  (Level: 55.2 - Posts: 521)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 6:10 AM

The respect has to go both ways. I was willing to back Bush until it was obvious that he was going to not listen to anyone else.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 6:23 AM

Then don't expect everyone to get behind the new guy. He's proven nothing other than than his flute works.

mplaw51
Mplaw51  (Level: 179.5 - Posts: 1582)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 6:39 AM

We elected an American for president.

The beauty of this country is that we can criticize and complain. Bush has been a disappointment. The most staunch Republicans have said that. It doesn't mean that every day he didn't work his hardest and love his country or isn't a proud American. He's just been a disappointment.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 6:41 AM


jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 7:05 AM


lettermanfan1
Lettermanfan1  (Level: 88.3 - Posts: 486)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 7:35 AM

W's biggest fallacy, I believe, was surrounding himself with some really terrible people (the exception being Colin Powell). His legacy is thousands of flag draped coffins, Katrina and thousands of foreclosures. How will the history books spin that?

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 7:42 AM

Yes, that's the original misleading story, dated several months before the correction I posted.



jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 7:44 AM

The Salon story is not a retraction. Salon is a left-wing, liberal entity with a very biased spin. The Bush Administration said they wanted to drop it. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. I don't believe much of what I read in the funny paper or in Salon.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 7:46 AM

Obviously, you believe what you want, all evidence to the contrary notwithstanding.

Whatever.

garrybl
Garrybl  (Level: 280.2 - Posts: 6644)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 8:06 AM

http://www.freeindiamedia.com/america/america_1639.php

This summarizes the independent government investigation. 217 pages (77 of which were complaint by Bush's administration and 53 pages of rebuttal!!)
Total cost of repairs S14K.
Investigation cost S200M

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 8:12 AM

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/stories/01/26/whitehouse.pranks.02/index.html
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/stories/01/26/whitehouse.pranks.02/index.html
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2001/05/19/MN169709.DTL
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1689
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1686
http://www.penceland.com/NoVandals.html
http://rw-infopedia.pbwiki.com/Clinton%20Aides%20vandalized%20the%20White%20House

From "The Nation": "Once in office, the Bush Administration put out a widely reported story about Clinton staff vandalism of White House property and operations; for a week the story almost dominated the news. Three months later, a GAO report revealed that virtually none of it happened--except that someone left a few pieces of paper with obscenities on a photocopy machine."

From bushlies.com:
LIE: The Bush administration spread stories that the outgoing Clinton administration vandalized the White House with obscene graffiti, file cabinets glued shut, phone wires cut and pornography left on fax machines.
FACT: The General Accounting Office found no evidence of vandalism, wires slashed, equipment damaged or other evidence to match the allegations. (Boston Globe 05.28.01)

The GAO report said that nothing was found that exceeded the "normal" damage found during any administrational transition.


pennwoman
Pennwoman  (Level: 155.2 - Posts: 2478)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 8:55 AM

I love that we can speak our hearts and convictions. Tis a great country! I always cry at the National Anthem, because we have so much and I am grateful for it and the freedoms that we take for granted.

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 11:06 AM

Smoke;

I was hoping somebody would post to debunk Jank's urban legend. I didn't immediately find the references which would do so and switched to other tasks.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21604)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 11:32 AM

WOW this whole thing amazes me. I do not believe in "trashing" President Bush. I for one was cetainly glad he was there after 9/11. Never thought I would agree with Penn on anything lol but she is correct that one person does not "rule' this country. For the past 4 years the Congress has been controlled by Democrats so what does that say? Every president is given a sort of grace period and believe this one will be too. In listeneing to him and going back over his campaign promises just don't see how he can deliver half of what he has promised without totally pissing off a whole bunch of folks. Any kind of humor about this presidency will be very difficult as anyone who makes any kind of joke will most likely be labled as "racist" The most vocal opposition to him has come from Fundamentalist Christians it seems. I am not one of "those" either. In fact I am not very religious at all. This being said and my previous statements lead me to believe it is best for me not to try and discuss current politics -stated or not race becomes an issue-nor moral "rights" and "wrongs". TSK, I respect you greatly but don't see how you can refer to Bush as an elitist preppie or something of the sort when the Kenedy dynsty was nothing but that. Yes, my early religous teachings were as a Catholic so most like this is offensive to some there too.Linda There it is typos and all!!!

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 11:35 AM

But Barry summed it up:

Total cost of repairs S14K.
Investigation cost S200M

A fitting representation of the entire Clinton era, if true.



garrybl
Garrybl  (Level: 280.2 - Posts: 6644)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 11:53 AM

Liinda I respect your right to comment as you see fit.
But on the facts please be aware that the Republicans controlled congress from 2004-2006.
And if you count Joe Lieberman as a republican --especially on the war -- the Democrats did not control the senate in the period 2006-8.
That's quite important in terms of the farcical goings on of the last four years.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21604)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 12:09 PM

Barry, thank you for that. Wish I had started paying attention earlier. The US Presidency seems about being rich or the ability to raise money. That separates me from whomever wins as much as anything else. I just know that this whole thing strikes fear into an old woman like me trying to keep my house and not worry if I am fortunate enough to be able to afford a plane ticket back to Mi. to see my kids or they coming to see me that the plane will be blown up. Perhaps I was better off with my head in the sand. Linda

kaufman
Kaufman  (Level: 257.1 - Posts: 3936)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 6:15 PM

... The ability for both sides to harp on it with no end years later ... PRICELESS.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 6:18 PM

I ain't harping, I'm defending.

kaufman
Kaufman  (Level: 257.1 - Posts: 3936)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 6:25 PM

I don't care. It's like Roger Rabbit with that Shave-and-a-haircut. If someone starts a MasterCard ad, it's absolutely got to be finished.

Anally-obsessively-compulsively yours ...

lucimoore
Lucimoore  (Level: 183.6 - Posts: 1684)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 8:10 PM

Last word. Slamming door. Opening door and slamming again. And, again and shutting forcefully with my foot.

newyorkgoomba
Newyorkgoomba  (Level: 214.8 - Posts: 58)
Sat, 8th Nov '08 2:49 PM

Suggestion for Bush library: build it underground.

Good riddance to the moron (and no, historical hindsight will only highlight his corruption and
malfeasance) elected by his brother's electoral thievery!





caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21604)
Sat, 8th Nov '08 2:54 PM

You need to really slam the door this time, Luci Lol Linda

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Sat, 8th Nov '08 6:56 PM

Linda. I don't mean to imply that Bush, alone, may be described that way. I do find it hard to listen to him telling people to work hard and earn their reward -- like he never did. I do think, however, that young Bush is the worst president so far, and will be generally so regarded 25 years, 50, or 100 years from now. And, yes, shame on the Democrats who allowed things to come to this point.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21604)
Sat, 8th Nov '08 7:03 PM

Thanks for clarifying your stance, Tsk. Linda


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