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caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 4:36 PM

WHO IS GOING TO PAY FOR ALL OF THIS?

I am not asking this to be sarcastic and and not the best person to post and express myself. but Tex is history and Smaug seems to be choosing to remain silent. I have nothing against Jank-think she is a nice woman- but she has religous views (respect her for having them) which seem to come into her political ones. It is obvious from my past posts that I admire TsK.

SO.....cannot help but believe that some folks-not necessarily people here-believe "GOVERNMENT" to be some nebulous entity with unlimited resources for anyone with his hand out from mortgage companies to auto companies. I know failure of the auto industries would put so many out of work. The answer seems to e to extend unemployment benefits. Personally, during my many working years I was always fortunate enough to not have to get those benefits. The way it was back then though unemployment was a stop-gap measure while you looked for a job. People had to report to an office and go out for interviews. Now, if I am understanding things all of this can be done by phone or online. Just cannot see where the accountability is in this nor than to any of the people who have received money to account for anything. The people ARE the government and just do not believe there are enough super-rich people to foot the bill. Detroit is basically my home and don't want to see it go down in flames as it surely will if the auto industry dies. I taught in the City of Detroit for 27 years and the city always needed money from the State-which now must be hurting too- and the Federal Government.

As I stated am not asking this sarcastically and would like an answer in simple enough terms for a person like me to understand. In other words don't want to know what works idealistically nor on paper but out here in this real world. Linda

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 5:54 PM

Producing energy efficient cars is something that can hopefully renew Detroit. Who will pay for it? Taxpayers of course. But we will get much more for our money than we do for multiple wars.

cujgie
Cujgie  (Level: 173.4 - Posts: 754)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 6:04 PM

During my half hour drive toi work every afternoon at 1:00-1:30 p.m. I've been very recently listening to the Rev. Al Sharpton's talk show. Since the election, I've been amazed to hear callers, both black and white, asking eagerly, "How can we get our neighborhoods back from the gangs?" and "What can I and my family do to help improve things in this country?" and "If my child doesn't want to go to college, what other avenues are there?"

Of course, this need to problem-solve may dissipate as time goes on, but I hope not. This kind of thinking and asking (and doing) is exactly what I believe Obama wants to inspire in us and I hope continues during his presidency.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 7:10 PM

Thanks to those who responded. I guess I was asking for a simplistic answer to a complex problem thanks again-Linda.

lucimoore
Lucimoore  (Level: 183.1 - Posts: 1683)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 7:55 PM

Linda, I think everyone our age is a little anxious about what is going on with the economy, the world in general. We have looked so forward to retirement only to realize that this will not be the time to relax. I think this is going to take "the backbone of our nation" as well as the younger citizens doing what a great number of the older ones have had to do most of our lives. There are many members who grew up in times that were trying and we struggle on a daily basis to make ends meet but this country has reinvented itself more than once and I really have to believe we can do it again. I have children and grandchildren for whom I want a better world. There have been divisive times before but I am an optimist and truly believe we can work hand-in-hand as Americans to get our country back to the place we have been before. I think, no I know, it will take sacrifice and I think we must humble ourselves to be proud of how we can rebuild our country again. The time for finger pointing is over. When I think of America and the men and women who made this country what it is and those who will unselfishly work to build it up again, this is what The United States of America means to me. As we head into Thanksgiving and the Christmas or Holy season I will every day "Believe". As simplistic as this answer is maybe we can all hope for a better world.

bbear
Bbear  (Level: 161.0 - Posts: 2301)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 8:39 PM

Linda - I can't imagine what life is going to be like in Detroit in 10 years.

Here in New Orleans we have the Michoud plant, which makes the orange fuel containers for the shuttles. It employees over 2,000 people with good jobs and is really the only good job outside of tourism and medicine. When the shuttle stops what is going to happen?

I know it is a microism of what is happening in Detroit, but did any see Moore's movie Roger and Me? It's too scary.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 9:57 PM

I know finger pointing is uncomfortable...but we have to dig in and figure out what caused this so we can: 1. Reverse it; 2. Avoid doing it again; or 3. Take it apart and rebuild it from scratch.

I think probably option 3 is impossible. But how do you know how to fix something that you don't know what part is broken in? It's like the entire economic structure of our country is sick, and Dr. House is taking more than one episode to figure out what's wrong and how to save the patient. I'm wishing the most brilliant minds in our country would get together and write an equation to get us out of this mess.

That, and the equation for cold fusion. Or at least a way to meet our energy needs by using our garbage.

bbear
Bbear  (Level: 161.0 - Posts: 2301)
Fri, 7th Nov '08 11:05 PM

I dunno. But just about every phone call I make about getting a fridge repaired, calling about my cell phone, questions about my new microwave, I end up talking to someone from Calcutta or New Delhi. What's that all about?

papermanbill
Papermanbill  (Level: 41.3 - Posts: 1313)
Sat, 8th Nov '08 6:42 AM

The American people have nobody to blame but themselves when it comes to losing jobs and industries. Here's a few examples: Remember when everyone laughed at the cute little VW Bug when they were driving their 12MPG Chevy. Why do Americans drool all over Toyota cars and made them the top selling car while GM, Ford and Chrysler are going broke. Does anyone remember when the "Made in Japan" label was a code word for junk ?? How about in the 50's +60's when a high school kid or garage mechanic would develop a carbeurator that could get 50-60 MPG ??? Did somebody buy them out ?The main reason big industries can't keep their manufacturing here is the environment. People had to decide whether they wanted clear skies and clean water or the good job that put food on the table. If it wasn't for the tourist and service industries in this country what would the jobless rate be ?? It's a good thing that there are lotteries, casinos and theme parks to keep everyone;s credit cards loaded to the MAX... Does anyone remember when college was a privilege or for the rich kids. Now it is a $30,000 a year requirement to finish what they kids didn't learn in high school. Last Tuesday, our Savior was voted into office and in four or eight years, everything will be fine. Professor Barry is going to straighten out our economy and rid the world of and violence from terror and nuclear weapons. Will he have time to write anymore books ? Isn't life wonderful !!!

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Sat, 8th Nov '08 6:53 AM

Why is Toyota building in Tupelo? Why is Volkswagen building in Chattanooga? Unions killed Detroit. Simply math will tell you the guy making $10 an hour can not afford any product made by workers maker 5 times that much. Greed killed the US car industry. A tachometer is now requires to measure how fast Henry Ford is turning over in his grave. He wanted everyone to be able to afford a new automobile. Union Spin Guy, you're up!

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Sat, 8th Nov '08 7:33 AM

I have to agree with you once again, Felix. The original good purpose of the unions got lost. I was a member of the Detroit Federation of Teachers all of my working years. I am no different. I (WE) looked out for ourselves and repeatedly went out illegally on strike to get money from a school system that had no money because the city had no tax base. Any large industry had moved out and any "mom and pop" stores which had ever been there could not withstand the crime against them Except for city workers who were required to live within the city limits and old people the vast mojority of folks were not working-welfare recipients-so there were few working people to tax. It is all well and good to say "think of the good of the country or in my case the city" when you have moved out. But when you are a WORKINg person trying to live there and send your kids to the schools that even though many tried were horrible because of unrealistic goals which look good on paper being imposed on kids who see themselves much better off as prostitutes, pimps, or drug dealers. They certainly were correct financially. I wanted people then to climb down from the ivory toweres as I do now and put in place a system where ALL contribute for the good of anything by working at what they are physically/mentally able to do not just say "gimmee" I have it coming-Linda

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 8th Nov '08 8:03 AM

I think much of what has been described was caused or worsened by "white flight" when the Civil Rights Acts desegregated schools, jobs and housing, and fearful whites fled to the suburbs, abandoning the inner cities and gutting the tax base.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 8th Nov '08 8:07 AM

Totally agree about unions losing their focus and getting too greedy. As an 18-year member of the UAW having been through several strikes (and finally crossing the picket line to get my job back when the union was busted in my plant), my observation from serving on the strike committees was that the union was more about the union than it was about the workers.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Sat, 8th Nov '08 8:10 AM

Think I am responding to you Paperman-never really sure here. Detroit was one of the first major cities along with Clevland to elect a Black maor. There are major differences between his being elected and the man who will soon become the leader of our country. Coleman Young did not have the support of most white people. Probably in large part because he called white police officers PIGs and screamed onTV every chance he got that "Whitey" was responsible for the woes of the city. He was very successful in improving the face of the downtown area guessing because that looked good for the TV cameras. Will say he did NOTHING to improve nor inspire the kids in the neighborhood where I taught other than to inspire them to hate and blame.. I am still hope this future president is above folowing down this same path-Linda

chickfbref1
Chickfbref1  (Level: 120.7 - Posts: 2012)
Sat, 8th Nov '08 11:02 AM

My dear Linda, how dare you forget Chicago!

We elected a female mayor in 1979 then an African-American in 1983.

Chicago is always ahead of it's time!!

Me.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Sat, 8th Nov '08 11:23 AM

Chick believe Detroit beat Chicago in the election of a Black major. My memory is faulty but believe Coleman Young's first election win was in the 70s. Chicago is much more like NYC than Detroit because the city offers much more in theater and like things. No offense to the city where I lived and worked all of my adult life, but Detroit at least was a "lunch box" town. Don't be offended-I have pretty much always been a lunch box person myself. The point I was trying to make is that Pointing fingers of blame and Bailing out individuals or corporations et al is not a solution-(someone(s) have to work ) for a Black person or a White one. I have said before don't pretend to know national politics nor have a solutuion that will be effective.- I DO know what happened to Detroit from the late 60s until the early 90s. After that I too moved out not only of the city but of the state. People can post all the links they choose and am finding one pretty much contradicts the other-just appreciate people who speak from experience not some intellectual podium-Linda

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Sat, 8th Nov '08 11:47 AM

Do believe that all people at times need temporary help. However, the welfare system seems to have perpetuated generation after generation of people depending on it to live. Perhaps the system should be revised to give people help with things like their medical care and basic existence without making it necessary for them to be totally dependent or thrown off. It is really "SCARY" to me to see this whole welfare mentality -it suddedenly becomes "THEIR" money ?? to extend beyond the individual to other things. Getting in over my head here so will back off!! Linda

papermanbill
Papermanbill  (Level: 41.3 - Posts: 1313)
Sat, 8th Nov '08 3:46 PM

I don't know what everyone sees on tv, but people in Chicago don't move out because of Black people. Anyone here see what marched down Madison Street in May of 2007. BTW "most" people who bitch about unions never were in a good one. 30 years a Teamster and never one complaint. My family up to my grand father and the same with my wifes's family were all Teamster families and we loved every bit of it. You guys are saying the greed thing. The next time you bitch about a driver cutting you off, 99 chances out of a hundred he is not union and he is working for $8 or $9 an hour. I worked for a SOB who didn't want to replace brakes, tires or safety equipment. Myself and a couple of the other guys would pull over the State Police and turn the MF in. I don't know what the UAW or any trade union officials do, but I still keep in contact with my Business Agent and probably will the rest of our lives. BTW, he is very black.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Sat, 8th Nov '08 4:00 PM

I have no complaint against the teacher's union that I belonged to in Detroit. Because of that union I now have a retirement income that allows me to live in some comfort with excellent health benefits in a totally nonunion state. People including teachers here do not make a comprable wage to other areas of the country. There are the arguments that Fl. living is cheaper-don't knoiw about that so won't comment. My comments were more directed on teachers going on strike against a school system that had no money because the tax bse had been destroyed. I am sure that multiple opinions exist as to what destroyed thattax base-just gave you mine. I asked for practical not theoretical possible solutions. Curious-what came down madison St in May of o7??

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 8th Nov '08 4:06 PM

It has never made a whit of difference to me what color anyone is. Admittedly I've never been a teamster, and my comments should have been made specific to my own UAW shop in Pennsylvania. One thing that stuck in my craw was that when we had a strike meeting they let us use the union hall for the meetings, but not a single union official ever showed up for any of the meetings, and they left a note taped to the fridge door saying "help yourself to a soda but don't touch the beer." Not that we even wanted the damn beer, but our union dues paid for it!

Then a couple of years later they let my company fire me for lost time when my son died, and never even showed up to represent me and wouldn't answer my calls. When they went out on strike and the company locked them out and started hiring replacement workers I didn't hesitate for a second to go get my job back, as did about half of the former employees, and we were hired back at the same salary and benefits we'd had before. The company has since been absorbed by a competitor and moved to Germany.

I acknowledge that my personal experience affects my general attitude about unions. Didn't mean to offend any union members.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Sat, 8th Nov '08 4:17 PM

I too did not mean to offend union members and Paperman you used concrete examples to illustrate your views. Selfuish or not the Detroit Federation of Teachers -mostly all Black people as were the majority of teachers and over 90% of the students-was responsible for me being able to live as I do today. I sincerely believe working folks should be adequately paid and given adequate benefits. Just cannot see how this is going to happen with all the hand-outs for nothing. Not sure I would have had the personal integrity to work as hard as I did at a very difficult job in very difficult circumstances if I had been told that I would be given money not for my work or efforts but simply because I needed and deserved it-Linda

cujgie
Cujgie  (Level: 173.4 - Posts: 754)
Sat, 8th Nov '08 5:02 PM

There will not be handouts for nothing.

Take a deep breath. This will all be okay and will work out.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Sat, 8th Nov '08 5:53 PM

Cujgie, just so you know GM and Ford are standing behind you making faces.

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Sat, 8th Nov '08 7:10 PM

I will support labor and labor unions. One -- by no means the only -- issue with the domestic auto industry is that Japan has national health care and pension systems that are funded through general taxation. That is, Japanese automakers don't have certain costs that the domestic industry does -- and these are not insubstantial costs.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 8th Nov '08 7:23 PM

Hadn't thought of that. What aren't conservatives more interested in taking the burden of health care and pensions off of business?

papermanbill
Papermanbill  (Level: 41.3 - Posts: 1313)
Sat, 8th Nov '08 8:03 PM

Mr. T, Back in the mid-90's, I had a friend from Ohio that told me that the costs that automakers had to pay into union Health & Welfare funds added $2,000 to each new car.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Sat, 8th Nov '08 8:13 PM

TSK, you say "general taxation". What and/or Whom are you reffering to? Taxation is a general term. Sales tax would include everyone. Other taxes such as Property, Corporate, and Income narrows the field down considerably. Said I have no answers but appreciate insight into everything-Linda

donleigh
Donleigh  (Level: 147.5 - Posts: 5072)
Sat, 8th Nov '08 8:15 PM

Up in the Great White North (and it is white out there today) our universal health care doesn't cover everything. I still pay for private health care (for glasses, dental, etc) and I have to contribute to a pension plan over and above my government coverage. It isn't the Union who demands these things, they just negotiate the best rate for us. These extras do drive up the cost of everything made or done in a Union shop, but I'd hate to try make it without them.

alvandy
Alvandy  (Level: 229.1 - Posts: 7560)
Sat, 8th Nov '08 9:06 PM

I am a union leader in my area; a delegate to our local AFL-CIO Central Labor Council.
I joined the United Steelworkers of America in 1973. I've taken many union leadership courses in the past and teach a leadership and community activist workshop every year. I majored in history while attending college and have a special appreciation and knowledge of Labor history. I was on strike twice- but our small local union stuck together. We came out of those events with our heads high and our dignity. We were able to negotiate a fair settlement. That's the purpose of collective bargaining.

[My profile provides more about my philosophy.]

Obviously , I disagree with the "perception" [of some ] that unions were once important, but not anymore.
As union membership as a percentage of the work force has declined, so has the standard of living of most workers.
So, unions ARE important!. "A rising tide raises all boats" and vice versa!
Unions are even more critical today since corporate America has gained a huge upper hand over the lives of workers through exploitation, government neglect to enforce Labor laws and a global economy that is predicated on the bottom line and tied into "stock market profits"; desire for low cost labor and "worker vs. worker" mentality prevalence.
Productivity is up; wages are stagnant. Something is wrong there.

I'll be glad to chat with Caramel; Smoke or anyone about their personal problems as a past union member. Send a personal message if you so desire.
As a general statement, a local labor union is only as effective in accomplishing it mission as its chosen leaders have the desire and skills to do that. Not always the case.
So- many local unions suffer in this regard. Just like some employers and its choice of management representatives, the "Peter Principle" does rear its ugly head.

But , I'll definitely defend the Labor movement. It would be nice if Labor history was discussed and taught in schools. It would open eyes [perhaps some minds] and be educational. Big business has no interest in supporting that, of course.



felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Sun, 9th Nov '08 5:06 PM

Oh, I apologize. You were being serious. My Bad!

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Sun, 9th Nov '08 5:18 PM

Linda. I'm not sure, but I believe it is just funded through all tax streams that are not specifically dedicated for other purposes. I would think that because the western European democracies generally have national health systems, at least in that respect, European auto manufacturers would also enjoy a cost benefit, but it would depend on how the tax was assessed. For instance if a special health care tax is assessed on each corporation base on employee count, the only cost savings would be related to lower health costs in those nations.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Sun, 9th Nov '08 6:08 PM

Thanks, TSK. Still not sure I understand but you have given me something to think about and I appreciate that and the fact you are willing to say you are not sure. So many people lately on both sides of any issue have said things not based on fact or experience but expect to be believed simply because they said it. Takes me back in time once again when I believed because I heard something on the news it had to be true. Linda

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Sun, 9th Nov '08 6:22 PM

LOL Linda, I remember thinking that too!

fudypatootie
Fudypatootie  (Level: 197.1 - Posts: 1302)
Mon, 10th Nov '08 12:45 AM

Linda, you made some good points about welfare and unemployment. I have been unemployed for over a year now. The way the system works now (and I've never been part of it before, so I don't know how much it has changed) is that each week a claimant must call or go online to make a claim. Basic questions are asked about whether or not any work was done or any wages earned. I then had to provide the number of job contacts I had made that week and hit submit. Every 4 weeks, I had to go to the unemployment office (Career Center) and complete a 4-week report, which consisted of logging in and clicking a button. I kid you not. Took all of 2 minutes to do.

Now, I was honest and really have been looking for work, but it would be so completely easy to lie. When you first sign up for unemployment, you are told to keep a record of all job contacts for audit purposes, but no one has ever asked for those records and I doubt anyone will. Maybe the sheer number of unemployed right now prevents much oversight.

While this system would be easy to cheat, at some point your unemployment runs out and that's just it. Welfare doesn't work that way. Maybe it should.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Mon, 10th Nov '08 3:16 AM

Fudy, do certainly appreciate you being so candid and honest. If all recipients of all programs of anything were equally so folks like myself would not be complaining so loudly. No one seems to be accountable to anyone for anything-thanks again-Linda

mplaw51
Mplaw51  (Level: 179.5 - Posts: 1582)
Mon, 10th Nov '08 7:46 AM

In NJ welfare isn't an entitlement. Are there families in a cycle of dependency? Sure. What a get rich quick scheme. A mother and child get $322 a month, they get about $265 in food stamps and a voucher for $600.00 for rent. All of your utilities must be paid with this. That voucher will allow you to live by the crack house or gang area, good stuff. It lasts for one year only. Once you get a job, you pay the rent. To remain on welfare you are required to attend work related activities that have been assigned to you. Hopefully this will lead to a job. If you don't attend the activity, you are sanctioned and the adult portion is removed. Now you get $162/month. A mother and two children get $424, 3 kids-$488.

Many have only known welfare and need a social worker to help them attack their problems. My experience is with women who have been victims of domestic violence. They're trying to get their lives together and do right by their children.

So sure, get a job, knock off that crap, I've heard it from many of you. Most of these women have had the rug pulled out from under them when the man they married took a walk. Won't pay child support, arrears are in the tens of thosuands, they've lost the house. They tried everything and now to their shame, they're on welfare. Keep judging them, they just eat bon bons, watching TV. The women I interact with take buses, get up at 5AM so that they can get places on time, day after day. Try walking in their shoes...

I don't work for the welfare agency. I work with the welfare agency for a non profit that helps parents get their lives back together. I get tired of the judgment is all.

I won't say we don't meet "hoodlums". They're out there, but their life is nothing to brag about and in NJ the door is shut in about 90 days if they don't get it together. No cash assistance, no food stamps, no medicaid. If philosophically, you don't believe in any of that, well....

mplaw51
Mplaw51  (Level: 179.5 - Posts: 1582)
Mon, 10th Nov '08 7:56 AM

Sorry if that came across as harsh. Just a private vent, I guess.
Maureen

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Mon, 10th Nov '08 8:08 AM

I never claimed welfare was a get rich quick scheme. The system itsaelf though do believe is rife with faults. In the area where I taught most of the homes were female headed either by a mother or grandmother. Not certainly all but many also contained a transient male figure. I don't pretend to know how to reform it or the SS system which perpetuates the idea of a widowed woman if she cares for another man now simply lives with him rather than marrying him as then her benefits would be cut off. I make no moral judgments as have never felt myself above reproach and thus in a position to do that. No one can convince me thast reform is not needed in a systyem which perpetuates itself-poverty level or not. I am not intelligent enough nor young enough to do that but there are folks who are-that's my vent-Linda

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Mon, 10th Nov '08 8:36 AM

Before wrath descends on my head want to clarify a couple of things. I have never depended upon a male for income and thus subsitence of myelf or my children or what he paid into SS. I do know women who did though as that was my mother's generation. When I was considering options for a career the only really viable ones for me at that time included teacher, nurse, social worker or nun. There were of course those more courageous than I who ventured into other fields. I loved the kids I taught-middle schoool age-which any parent will admit are often hard to love or even like. I abhor what the system as much as anything did to their lives. I did not vote for the incoming president but in retropspect am glad he was chosen No one can say again that anyone is hindered by gender or race. Don't expect miracles but the example is there if anyone is willing to work hard perhaps in public service.Think I'm done ranting now but one can never be sure about me LOL Linda

mplaw51
Mplaw51  (Level: 179.5 - Posts: 1582)
Mon, 10th Nov '08 9:00 AM

My vent was not directed at you, Linda but has been brewing for awhile. May have been best left unsaid. I always understand where you're coming from even when I don't hold the same opinion you hold. Good post.
Maureen

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Mon, 10th Nov '08 9:11 AM

Yours was also a good post. I often post things that would most likely better be left unsaid. Mine although from a opposite perspective has been brewing fr a bit. Hate when people speak from their or anyone else's
IDEALS" and not from experience nor practicalty. Reform anywhere will certainly not make anyone very popular-difficult to give and then take away-glad you are here_Linda

salzypat
Salzypat  (Level: 156.3 - Posts: 5314)
Mon, 10th Nov '08 9:27 AM

Maureen, you must work for an agency similar to the one we have in my community. When I first knew about it, it was called Curtis & Associates, but it's undergone so many name changes, I have no idea what it's called now. It works through government contracts to help get people off assistance.

They work with people who are, in many instances, getting jobs for the first time. Some of them are second and third generations on welfare. A few years ago long-term assistance was to be phased out and each recipient able to work had to have a plan to get off assistance and have a job in place within 24 months.

There are people who need to be taught simple logic about a job: You have to call in if you are sick and can't make it to work, you have to take regular baths and use deodorant, you have to show up and be ready to work 5 minutes before your assigned starting time or call in if you're going to be late (and that better be a rare occasion), how to dress appropriately for the job, how to do an interview or write a resume, how to answer the telephone properly, etc.

These companies then help the clients find jobs and work with them through the first year I think it is to make sure they are working out well. The company gets a break in some way for hiring one of the clients. I convinced my boss to hire someone from the program and she turned out to be a hard worker, fast learner, dependable and always eager to better herself. We had some rough spots that needed to be worked out but she kept learning and has been with the company 7 or 8 years now.





mplaw51
Mplaw51  (Level: 179.5 - Posts: 1582)
Mon, 10th Nov '08 9:36 AM

Pat, Yes I work for an agency that does that and lots more. You expressed it very well when you wrote about people who needed to learn about life skills like timeliness, hygiene, appropriate attire,etc.
Unfortunately, in stressful times children get abused and neglected more often and we are seeing more of that as well. Children are always the priority.
Maureen

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Mon, 10th Nov '08 10:03 AM

Pat and Mpaw-very good points. Think much of what you were talking about I alluded to briefly somewhere in some thread. The curriculum for the students that I taught looked good on paper and was aimed at making Detroit Public Schools score better on national tests. We literally taught the tests-suspect some helped students take it but have no proof of that. We did not teach these kids the practical life skills they needed that you mentioned to get and keep a job. It was all about qualifying for federal or state funding. Personally, I went to places like MacDonalds and got aplicatiions and showed kids the correct way to compete them.. Geting interest was indeed difficult as the wage MacDonal's paid could not compare with what they could get by selling their bodies or each others or drugs. I didn't have the answer then and don't now. I do not believe, however, that anything practical will come out of the mouths of people Black or White who if they ever do venture into neighborhoods like where I taught drive threw quickly with car doors seculely locked in daylight hours -Linda

bbear
Bbear  (Level: 161.0 - Posts: 2301)
Mon, 10th Nov '08 10:23 AM

Linda et al:

When I was 24 I found myself alone with a 1 1/2 year old son and a high school diploma, no income. I went to the AFDC office and spoke to a social worker. I told him I needed help for exactly two years and then never wanted to see him again.

I received 416.00 a month (26 years ago), 112.00 in food stamps; they also pain my tuition to community college and paid child care (The Head Start program).

Exactly two years later, diploma in hand, I met up again with my social worker and shook his hand. Never saw him again.

That is what the system is supposed to do.

I know am the nursing director of a hospice, make 65,000 a year and my son makes 6 figures as a successful computer programer.

It can work. I am living proof. I'm glad it was there for me.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Mon, 10th Nov '08 10:33 AM

You are indeed a succes story, Beth and I applaud both you and yours. The system allows many to fall through the cracks, however. It would be nice to know where your inner motivation came from as it seems to be key in making this or any assistance program work other than on paper-Linda

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Mon, 10th Nov '08 10:45 AM

"That is what the system is supposed to do". Could not agree with you more and do not believe even the hardest heart would deny help on a temporary basis. Most of us have needed that n one form or another. The problem is that there is a huge difference between "supposed to" and DOES-Linda

mplaw51
Mplaw51  (Level: 179.5 - Posts: 1582)
Mon, 10th Nov '08 11:07 AM

Beth, what a pleasure it is to hear that! Congratulations on your tenacity and fight!
For those so called blips on the radar screen the system can work. Motivation needs to be there of course. There's a responsibility in accepting the hand that is extended to you. That would make it a "hand up" not a "hand out".
Maureen

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Mon, 10th Nov '08 11:16 AM

Maureen, could not agree with you more. Think we might still disagree on what constitutes the blips as opposed to the norm. In any event, Beth is to be congratulated as are you and anyone who looks out for our children-Linda

mplaw51
Mplaw51  (Level: 179.5 - Posts: 1582)
Mon, 10th Nov '08 11:19 AM

Very true, Linda. I'm never on here during the day. I have the day off and keep signing on and off! Fun!!!
M.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Mon, 10th Nov '08 6:42 PM

Maureen - I'm very glad you wrote every word.

I think the judgment is a generalization and fear about those people who use/manipulate the system (welfare pays the rent and food so their cash goes for their drug habit).

But absolutely, there are untold thousands (maybe more) who are legitimately in need, and we need to be there to help. i just wish we could do that on a local level, not national.

And I totally blame the church for not doing its job - God gave the church the command to take care of the widow and orphan (and figuratively for all intents and purposes, that fits people in situations like the ones you listed). By church, I mean ALL churches, all denominations, all beliefs. We all have a central belief of helping the helpless (the Good Samaritan - we're taught to take care of people - even those we might consider an enemy). As I understand the Bible, God never meant that responsibility to fall on government - it is the responsibility of the church. If we had followed that commandment, the government wouldn't have needed to step in. We didn't do our job enough - and our absence created a void the government (and thereby, our taxes) had to fill.

Bless you for what you do. You are helping make miracles happen. And I for one would never judge anyone in those situations.

mplaw51
Mplaw51  (Level: 179.5 - Posts: 1582)
Mon, 10th Nov '08 7:49 PM

Thanks for the kind words. The ones who blow their money up their nose or shoot in their arm, lose their children. Yes, we see them as well. They struggle to make themselves clean so that they can win their kids back and get reunified. Toeing the line when your kids are gone is motivation for some, for others, well they just sign their rights away and let good people adopt their children. Sometimes the courts make that decision for them.
Believe me it's hard not to be cynical sometimes, but the success stories bring tears to your eyes and energy running through your veins. It's what its all about....the children.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Mon, 10th Nov '08 8:16 PM

Maureen, I agree with you that the children should be the focus. In my job they certainly should have been. The school system has such waste and misdirection of its resources though. Can remember unused books being shipped off to some unknown place because a new system had been adopted to improve reading and math scores. Black English and new math were just two of the multiple tried and failed programs that Detroit had while I was there. I did love he kids though. Watching the news now wonder how anyone whose field is Economics survives past age 25. AIG wants more money from the taxpayer or all insurance companies willl fail The auto companies say they are close to bankruptcy in large part because of union trust funds for healthcare and they too need more money or the economy will surely fail. Large cities have been broke for ages with possible exceptions as well as states like Michigan. I am more than sure they will be in line. Where and when does it stop? No one will ask me to figure this out and I am certainly glad because I haven't a clue-Linda

fudypatootie
Fudypatootie  (Level: 197.1 - Posts: 1302)
Tue, 11th Nov '08 12:46 AM

I, too, was a single mother. I did not receive any kind of check because I was lucky enough to be allowed to move back in with Mom, but I did get state-paid daycare while I completed my first degree. I, too, never saw that social worker again.

The problem isn't that people are being helped, but that the system perpetuates itself. People are penalized for trying to pull themselves up. Families can lose food stamps or dollar amounts from checks when they finally get that job, so what's the point of taking a minimum wage job? I taught a GED class in a federal housing development and the students were required to attend a certain number of hours each week, but there was no time limit on actually completing, so many students put in only enough effort to avoid getting asked to work harder or leave. Students on probation around here are required to obtain their GED within 30 days. That's impossible in this state due to paperwork delays alone, much less the readiness of the student. It's a mess. As they say, you can't win for losing.

I agree, Linda, that I'm not the one with the answers, either. But I can see how people can see the problems with the system and wonder how in the world it can ever get fixed.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Tue, 11th Nov '08 2:42 AM

Thank you, Fudy. You said pretty much what i mean only better. Went to bed last night after my last post-up now on "potty' break- because the situation is so tangled and complex it is depressing. I just know from experience that when things get bigger they become moreso that way. My example is that Detroit Schools when I first started working for them were divided into districts and seemed more effective and manageable-not there was not mismanagement and waste. For some reason the districts were all brought under the control and direction of one board for all things-always had been the ULTIMATE authority-and that is when things really started downhill. Cannot see the control by anyone of the current monies being given out so that might not be the same. I see a different issue of the "no strings attached" that there is no accountability and thus see it repeating itself. Smarter minds than mine will have to figure this thing out-Linda

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Tue, 11th Nov '08 3:31 AM

Judy (Fudy) and Beth (Bbear) both seem to illustrate that education which the government will help with without penalty is the key to breaking the self-perpetuating welfare system. The idea of working one's self up from a minimum wage paying job is dashed because once an individual has know money coming in, things are taken away like food and health care It is not surprising at all that individuals would rather stay in the system if they cannot get a job and come out ahead. Believe it also contributes to the illegal and underhanded activities-keeping a male individual living in the home as a family member (father figure a "secret") and on and on


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