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smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Thu, 27th Nov '08 3:21 PM

PHILOSOPHY OF PERCEPTION

I'm just starting a seperate discussion for a topic that began on another thread, here's how the discussion has gone so far:

Gfawkes: Tri-partite critical realist. Anyone else?



Luvnmexsun: Great start Alan, I had to look it up. If I understand it correctly, this line of thought is what I believe to be a problem with science and research. If the transitory knowledge is removed from research, then science is held back from true innovation.

I personally think science should serve humanity and work to solve problems. Science would be far more effective if it worked in conjunction with art, especially at the research stage. Science should be creative.

Though perspective in society changes, it is still part of reality.



Gfawkes: The tri-partite part refers to what there is: the external world, the inner mind and incorporeal ideas outside the mind. Related to the issue of choice and knowledge, I would refer everyone to the most recent episode of Radio Lab (available as a podcast from iTunes), which had several compelling segments about the role in the brain that seem to coincide with rational analysis and with emotional impulse.

We were all interested in the podcast.


smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Thu, 27th Nov '08 3:23 PM

I hate to admit it Alan, but I don't know how to access podcasts, do you have to have a mp3 player or an ipod for that??

gfawkes
Gfawkes  (Level: 36.2 - Posts: 30)
Thu, 27th Nov '08 3:29 PM

I am sure you can download iTunes at www.apple.com. The podcasts can be found in the iTunes Store accessible from the iTunes interface. This podcast (and many other excellent ones) are free. Podcasts serve the same function for radio shows that DVRs do for TV shows.

gfawkes
Gfawkes  (Level: 36.2 - Posts: 30)
Thu, 27th Nov '08 3:31 PM

Sorry about the are/is problem in the last post. The name of the Radio Lab episode is "Choice" and the release date is 11/18.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Thu, 27th Nov '08 3:36 PM

Thanks Alan, if I have any troubles locating it I'll PM you, and I'll be sure to comment in this forum when I'm done.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Thu, 27th Nov '08 11:38 PM

I downloaded a bunch of stuff, and think I found it, Is it WNYC's radio lab?? Not sure why, but when I click on it, it brings me back to a previous page. Do you know what I'm doing wrong? Should I PM you with questions, or should I just contact the support staff at www.apple.com? I'm obviously not that technologically sophisticated.

gfawkes
Gfawkes  (Level: 36.2 - Posts: 30)
Sat, 29th Nov '08 9:09 AM

The Radio Lab program can be accessed more directly at:
http://www.wnyc.org/shows/radiolab/



smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sat, 29th Nov '08 2:15 PM

Thanks Alan. The program makes a fairly strong case for the determinist view on things, that we aren't really as in charge of our choices as we think we are. The casino part of it was particularly interesting for me since I'm going to Vegas for Christmas. Maybe I'll watch for that, I didn't even know casinos did that! Curious, how does this relate to the tripartite critical realism you were referring to? FYI, anyone who goes to listen to this program will find that the last 15 minutes or so repeats itself.

gfawkes
Gfawkes  (Level: 36.2 - Posts: 30)
Sat, 29th Nov '08 7:33 PM

Without providing spoilers for those who may wish to listen to the program, I think the content about the emotional component of making choices is counter to determinism. Please clarify your question about tripartite critical realism -- are you asking specifically about the casino story, and if so, is it the actions of the customer or of the casino?

luvnmexsun
Luvnmexsun  (Level: 147.4 - Posts: 711)
Sat, 29th Nov '08 10:37 PM

Actually Jeremy, the last 15 minutes are not a repetition, and one of the best segments, I thought.

The studies are provocative, and not surprising to me. "Feelings are short hand for the total of our past experience" (paraphrased, sry). As part of our decision-making then, we are ruled by our total past, not rational thought. Which negates, for the most part, determinism or free-will as just an illusion.

My last post under "the good life" thread does make this proposition even more alarming in terms of our media-saturated society. Most our our young people are gaining most of their experience vicariously though the media. They are exposed to massive amounts of information (sometimes a good thing, they know a physical world way beyond what men ever saw before), but from a chair. There is no doubt these "experiences" become part of their memory...and their culture subconsciously.

Since much of it is simply knowledge or information without understanding, it seems to me that there is even less possibility of analytical balance, therefore perhaps, no possibility of free will at all.

I would be interested as well, Alan, in how you see this in your "tri-partite critical realist" model. My understanding of the studies in "Choices" is that the external world becomes part of the inner mind (as "feelings"). How does that apply? And what part does "incorporeal ideas outside the mind" play in this paradigm?

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sun, 30th Nov '08 2:50 AM

That's funny, on the determinism comment I was only really referring to a particular segment, I have a tendency to root for determinism because my parents are so strictly "free will" people. Any study that backs up that view has a tendency to pump me up a bit more. Really Sun? I'll have to re-listen to it, Madawn and I were both listening, and we both thought it was repeating itself, same studies, same jokes, maybe it was a glitch after I paused it.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sun, 30th Nov '08 2:52 AM

Oh, and Alan, I wasn't really referring to just the casino story, I meant the talk as a whole...You have to remember I'm still a bit fuzzy about the topic in particular, though your comments are helping me get it.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sun, 30th Nov '08 4:59 AM

However, as long as we are on the topic of free will, does anyone know that much about religion? I've gotten the impression from several religious folks that I know that the extreme "free will" position is the view of the majority of Christians (though I have found exceptions in books), is this true? One example of this that I could give from a "pop culture" standpoint on Christianity would the book, "In His Steps: What Would Jesus Do?" by Charles Sheldon. According to a very simplified definition in my philosophy book, free will is, "the power to detach yourself from any inner motivation and to choose any of several alternatives." The basice premise of this book, which to my knowledge is the source of the What Would Jesus Do bumper stickers we see all over the place, is that when it comes to following Christ there is really nothing more to it than making the right choices from moment to moment. Is this the view of the majority of Protestants in this country?

oogie54
Oogie54  (Level: 201.2 - Posts: 1120)
Sun, 30th Nov '08 1:09 PM

The ideal christian would be a person who cedes their will to that of God. In essence the perfection of Christ was not that he never did anything wrong or had any human blemishes, but that he followed the will of the Father all the way to the cross, perfect obedience. "Father if it is possible let this cup pass from me, nevertheless not my will,but Thine". The problem with followers is "hearing" the urgings of the Holy Spirit, is God leading or is the "power" moving them their own self-interests. If all Christianity was led by the spirit of God, seems to me the world would be a better place by now.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sun, 30th Nov '08 1:33 PM

Wow, I guess I've heard of that view you stated but never really in the free will determinism context, and I think that particular post puts the discussion "outside of my abilities" on the topic, but I'll keep talking anyway until I get it. I like it when those views are put in a philosophical context, it helps me to understand them better. If you were following God's will, how would this fit into the free will/determinism debate? What would the position you described be labeled? Would it be free will because you were able to "take motivational factors into account" including God as a factor, and "decide" to be not casually determined by them or Him/Her, thus "able" to disobey God's will? Wouldn't an extreme determinism view mean you heard God's voice and were "unable" to disobey, unable to "disconnect" from motivational factors, to step back and "decide" what to do, so to speak? I would think the position you described would still be free will, because you would still have the "ability" to step back, consider motivational factors, and decide whether to obey, correct? I'm no religious expert here...and like I said the discussion went beyond my abilities a little.

oogie54
Oogie54  (Level: 201.2 - Posts: 1120)
Sun, 30th Nov '08 1:49 PM

Free will remains the prerogative of the believer, you would still choose between right and wrong, but be divinely inspired to make better choices. The basic textual inference of scripture is that the angels, being in God's presence, always worship him and obey him, but that he created mankind so that beings would willingly choose him.


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