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sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Mon, 15th Dec '08 1:45 AM

SHOE THROW IN BAGHDAD

I have to say that this is the most impressed I've been with W. If only his mind was as nimble as his body!

snookerballs
Snookerballs  (Level: 37.9 - Posts: 35)
Mon, 15th Dec '08 3:22 AM

Lets hope that shoes will all Obama will have to worry about.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21605)
Mon, 15th Dec '08 3:44 AM

Yes, lets hope that. I heard that at some point recently he made some kind of statement that if Iran attacked Israel with nukes tthe US would nuke them back. Your dad's comment about him doing that quickly came to mind. His appointments so far seem to sugest he chose folks who know a bit about foreign policy so he should really shut his mouth and leave that to them. Hope his golden image and silver tongue will get him through this current mess in Illinois basically untarniushed. He has promised so much and it would be a plus if he could even deliver a small percentage of that in respect to the economy. Really hope that Tex is not sitting somewhere already saying, "I warned you guys" so soon.- Linda

surreyman
Surreyman  (Level: 261.2 - Posts: 2770)
Mon, 15th Dec '08 4:35 AM

As a point of interest, shoe throwing in Iraq is just about as big an insult as can be imagined, and Obama wouldn't really want to attract that.
Remember when Saddam's statues came down? They weren't broken up, machine gunned or desecrated - they were slapped with the onlookers' shoes, the worst insult that could be devised!

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21605)
Mon, 15th Dec '08 6:15 AM

You are correct about shoe throwing is the supreme insult there. Just wondering what the show of insult will take the form American people after becomuing aware that their new President undeniably came out of the same incestous Chicago cess pool of politics-however far he attempts to "remove himself"-ceratainly cannot help but be at least embarrassing for him when and if tapes are released as Emanuel uses the same street languagwe that Blago does and they certainly talked and it would very odd if they had not. The senator thing is not the only thing being investigating-think Obama and associates are clear her but this prosecutor willk open another whole "can of worms" and we will just have to wait and see what/whom rises to the top of the pond-Linda His nuke comment is still scary-not really a good idea to threaten a country like Iran unless in a case like Israel you follow through with a threat. Israel often just acts not waiting to threaten In theory Iran is not even building nuclear weapons or supposed to be even though everyone knows they are. Seems it would have been a bit more prudent to continue with the policy of erecting something like shields before they are successfull in developing the nuke but who am I? Linda

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Mon, 15th Dec '08 6:22 AM

I don't believe we'd nuke Iran. Israel can do that themselves. We have some weaspons now that are powerful enough without adding the nuclear capability.

I could be wrong.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21605)
Mon, 15th Dec '08 7:11 AM

Obama DID say that though-thus my point that he should shut his mouth o all matters of foreign policy until at least the folks he has picked for those areas scrip tsomething for him to say. Already quite obvious he is GREAT with a teleprompter but fumbles and is not so good when speaking off the top of his head which is the only place he can speak from from his own expertise in foreign affairs That too is only my opinion-Linda

1mks
1mks  (Level: 211.2 - Posts: 5887)
Mon, 15th Dec '08 12:04 PM

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/12/secret-service.html
This shows the actual footage of the incident.

rowlanda
Rowlanda  (Level: 70.0 - Posts: 2856)
Mon, 15th Dec '08 6:43 PM

I thought Bush looked quite amused as the shoes were being thrown....
Which once again shows - he doesn't have a clue about the mores
of countries he was dealing with....

1mks
1mks  (Level: 211.2 - Posts: 5887)
Mon, 15th Dec '08 6:47 PM

He totally handled himself correctly. We certainly do not want an international incident over that petty tirade.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21605)
Mon, 15th Dec '08 8:08 PM

Agree, Marsha. I am a believer that he has done a lot more things correctly than he has been given credit. His facial epressions seem to make him an ideal target. I am not saying he has not made some big mistakes. It is of interest to me what Obama will do about closing Gitmo. The closing part is easy-what to do with those folks there is a whole other story. Other countries although critical of US policy there, have made it clear they don't want them-think it might have been Italy-not sure-that recently agreeed to take a few. Some lawmaker in Kansas is already pressing his case before Obama even takes office that Levenworth is not a viable option. The way they were arrrested and questioned pretty much determines that if they were put on trial under the same rules as apply to US citizens they would have to be released and for the present at least that means released on US soil. Consensus among the pundits-Yes, shame on me I watch Fox Noise (that was for TSK) that they will be tried pretty much as they are now only the trials will have a new name to bde free of the Bush stigma. Linda

tuzilla
Tuzilla  (Level: 134.2 - Posts: 3779)
Mon, 15th Dec '08 8:39 PM

I agree. We shouldn't get all wacked outta shape. In fact, we should return the shoes to the gentlemen. And I know exactly how to do it.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Mon, 15th Dec '08 8:48 PM

I'd like to know where the heck the Secret Service was.

They'll take a bullet, but not a shoe?

If the SS is not on their toes (no pun intended) better than this, the president (whomever that is at any given time) has a lot more to worry about than I thought.

rowlanda
Rowlanda  (Level: 70.0 - Posts: 2856)
Mon, 15th Dec '08 8:53 PM

That "Petty Tirade" was about the bombings in Iraq
and the numbers of women and children and
other innocent citizens killed in Iraq....

The shoes signify that Bush is lower than the dirt
on the soles of his shoes, for killing so many people
in Iraq, who did no harm before they were attacked.

Marsha, if you still think it's "petty" then maybe it
takes another 911 to get through to you....


1mks
1mks  (Level: 211.2 - Posts: 5887)
Mon, 15th Dec '08 9:03 PM

Maybe you best shift your paradigm a tad. 9/11 was why we were there to begin with.....

papermanbill
Papermanbill  (Level: 41.3 - Posts: 1313)
Mon, 15th Dec '08 9:06 PM

Has anyone seen the lobbies of some of the Baghdad hotels. There were mosaic tiled floors with Bush 41's picture on them. This was intended for ultimate disrespect. The reporter showed "W" ultimate disrect throwing his shoes. If Bush was Saddam, the reporter would be a 10-15 pounds lighter. Instantly !!

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21605)
Mon, 15th Dec '08 9:10 PM

Rowlanda, if memory serves me 911 did not involve an attack on Canada. This man represented one faction in Iraq and there are many. Had Bush made a big deal over this incident it would have been an embarrassment for the rest of the press people as well as the leader of Iraq. I am more that sure that Bush realized the significance of this man throwing his shoes. He even commented that he was sure the man was making a point and he had made it-Linda

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Mon, 15th Dec '08 9:14 PM

Gosh Marsha, I forgot that Iraq had attacked us on 9/11. I was under the impression that most of the terrorists were from our ally Saudi Arabia.

foogs
Foogs  (Level: 267.9 - Posts: 848)
Mon, 15th Dec '08 10:04 PM

Repeat a lie often enough and people will believe it.

"WMD. WMD. WMD. 9/11. Saddam Hussein. 9/11. WMD. They're all connected."

It's Nixon syndrome come early.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21605)
Mon, 15th Dec '08 11:32 PM

Think Clinton actually did pretty well according to your theory, Foogs, by repeating the phrase, "I did NOT have sex with that woman." He actually got so ridiculous as to debate the meaning of the word "IS"-believe he holds thed record as a president who repeats a lie hoping it will becme truth-Linda

fudypatootie
Fudypatootie  (Level: 197.3 - Posts: 1302)
Tue, 16th Dec '08 1:29 AM

Jan, I had the same thought as you. It's a good thing shoes were all that were thrown. Granted, the Secret Service guys were trying to tackle the guy, but still, he managed to throw both of them without any interference.

cujgie
Cujgie  (Level: 173.8 - Posts: 754)
Tue, 16th Dec '08 3:01 AM

I've arrived late to this party, and do want to assure you all that Obama did NOT come out of the "same cesspool" as did other Chicago politicians. Obama was never one of those guys, was in the state legislature and never had anything to do with helping govern Chicago. Even Mayor Daley doesn't like him all that much.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21605)
Tue, 16th Dec '08 5:09 AM

Interesting-Mayor Daley and I have something in common. For the sake of the country though as I said hope he comes through this untainted-at present it is only a major distraction for him in putting forth his picks and policies at press conferences. However, I was taught that I was know by the company I kept and even you would have to say he kept some unsavory company, Carol.- Linda

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21605)
Tue, 16th Dec '08 6:30 AM

Illinois in particular Chicago has pretty much taken the "hit" recently. This prosecutor is a tough cookie and one you. don't want to be on the bad side of-word is that he will not stop with the senator appt. thing as he has been taping the Governor for some time. All I am saying is that Obama could not have slid through politics anywhere without going through the "you scratch my back-I'll scratch yours" thing and that is where it might get sticky for him-. Now it seems the theme will not be to define "is" as Clinton did but the word "appropriate". Think most likely Obama would like to fire this prosecutor when he takes office as his right and most past new-electees have done-Clinton all-current Bush all but 2 one of whom who was investigating Hillary. The fall-out would be too big now for him to safely do that. Chicago nor Illinois is certainly not unique. Would be nice if this guy lived long enough to move on to investigations of other cites, states, charities, certain churches and the leaders, unions and even the Federal government and now it seems WAll Street (if I failed to offend anyone by not naming them-my apology) where it seems the biggest scam artist in history was just pulled off-Linda

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Tue, 16th Dec '08 9:25 AM

I fail to see how killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis through indiscriminate ariel bombings is justified by 9/11. 9/11 was executed by non-state actors, with whom the then-government of Afghanistan was sympathetic and abetted -- Iraq was not involved. So..... I am pleased to say that at least my paradigm hasn't changed to a construct that supports gross violations of international norms and common decency because of criminal acts of people who are not even nationals of the nation that we victimized. I was taught that two wrongs don't make a right.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21605)
Tue, 16th Dec '08 10:22 AM

I had to look up the meaning of the word "paradigm" so am most likely not the best person to be involved in a discussion of anyone shifting theirs. I don't pretend to speak for Marsha but perhaps she is among those like myself who are really weary of "Bush Bashing". He is human and has made errors but he has kept the US safe from attacks throughout his 2 terms. I believe him to be a basically honest man who acted as he deemed best given the intelligence he had-that nuclear weapons were hidden in Iraq. The intelligence proved to be wrong after the fact. Do we really want to get into things like the truth behind Truman dropping the bombs on Japan? The media wasn't as critical then so his explanation that the purpose was to end the war earlier and save American soldiers' lives was accepted. In truth Japan was for all practical purposes already defeated although believe a few soldiers appeared years later out of some swamp or woods not realizing the war was over. Always interested in your view of things though, Tsk, as you speak so well-Linda

salzypat
Salzypat  (Level: 156.5 - Posts: 5316)
Tue, 16th Dec '08 12:23 PM

Gosh, I can't believe it - I'm finally being joined by some others who are tired of Bush bashing.

I thought he handled the shoe throwing quite well. If someone threw their shoe at me and yelled at me (even if I couldn't understand it) I would probably have had to be held back as well. Good thing Bush is agile!

Where was this journalist's anger when Sadam destroyed whole villages from elderly to infants? He wouldn't have dared spoken out like that, would be my guess, or he would have joined the tortured and dead. It's only because he has freedom now (thanks to all the countries who helped provide him that freedom) that he was able to express his feelings.

Ever had a boss you thought was a pain in the tush? So he moves on and you get another boss that's not only a pain but a lot of other bad things I would prefer not to say. All of a sudden, that previous boss looks a heck of a lot better in the rear view mirror, doesn't he? I still think down the road, people will realize some of the good things Bush has accomplished. I'm not saying he's been perfect or that I've always agreed with him. But like you, Linda, I think he has done what he thought was right.

OK, all you Bush haters - have at me.



sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Tue, 16th Dec '08 1:27 PM

As I said at the beginning--W is surprisingly nimble.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21605)
Tue, 16th Dec '08 5:00 PM

Sandy, that is a very good start at "reaching across the aisle" LOL Linda

kaufman
Kaufman  (Level: 257.1 - Posts: 3936)
Tue, 16th Dec '08 6:06 PM

All I have to say is this clown was a disgrace to journalism. You're supposed to report the story, not be it!

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Tue, 16th Dec '08 7:48 PM

I can accept Kaufman's characterization of the journalist as a "clown" because I certainly chuckled when I heard of the incident, and I was also impressed that young George still possessed his schoolday cheerleader moves. To the extent the fellow had objectives he was hoping to accomplish beyond entertaining the masses of the world, I don't know whether or not he met the from his perspective.

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Tue, 16th Dec '08 7:49 PM

Re above: "met them". Sigh.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21605)
Tue, 16th Dec '08 8:24 PM

Does my heart good that you actually made a typo, TSK-inspires me LOL Linda

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Thu, 18th Dec '08 10:14 PM

Pat, I too am dismayed by some of President Bush's decisions, but still I respect a lot he has done. There have been no more terror attacks in the U.S. since 9/11, even though there have been elsewhere. Some heavy duty work in the intelligence department which we'll never know about has been done under his watch. The great economic recovery needed right after 9/11 kept this country running and growing until this whole mess came tumbling down a few months ago.

People make statements that Bush is an imbecile. Then turn around and say he masterminded a plot to bring down the World Trade Center buildings. I'm sick of the the lack of logic - the absurdity of people who even give these kinds of statements in the extreme either direction a 1st look, much less a 2nd look.

But sick of the bashing? Sick doesn't begin to express how I feel about it. Awhile back, I signed up for a daily email of the highlights of all the evening talk show jokes and such. But they are just so full of horrible jokes about Bush - they're so numerous and over the line. I no longer can find any humor. I'm actually to the point that I quit reading them because I was starting to cry every time I did read them at just how cruel, merciless, nasty, untrue, and extreme the "jokes" were - about Bush and especially about Palin. So much so that people who don't keep up with the news actually believe the jokes, rather than bothering to find out the truth. The worst of stupidity being that they believe Palin said she could see Russia from her house. They can't even separate Tina Feye's jokes from Palin's actual comments.

And the bottom line is - they're saying those things about Republicans and Conservatives and Christians in particular. They're putting Bush and Palin's name on it - but the bottom line is they have no respect for ME - for my beliefs, my values. Those jokes are about us who are conservatives - they're calling ME stupid for supporting the conservative movement and my Christian beliefs.

No - I'm not changing my core beliefs for any rich, spoiled, cynical comedians or their audiences. And neither are Bush or Palin or any other real conservative.

The Bible says if all humanity stops believing in God, the rocks will cry out to praise God. I don't want any rocks doing my job. And I feel just as strongly about conservative values and my core conservative beliefs.

The news media tries to ignore or begrudgingly cover all the stuff about Chicago and the politics there. Yet they were all over running to Alaska to try hard as they could to dig up anything to attack Palin with. When they couldn't really find anything substantive to convict her with, they chose to just make fun of Palin. I wish the media had tried 1/10th as hard to find out dirt on the other candidates. And you know who I mean.

I can appreciate the first thousand jokes about Bush and Palin as well as the next guy. But eventually, it just reeks of downright cruelty. And unfunny. And unjust. Toward them and toward us. It makes me heartsick.

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Fri, 19th Dec '08 7:37 PM

As I've said elsewhere, I am actually frightened by people of any religion who actually select political candidates based on the voter's perception of how well that candidate upholds certain religious values. Religion has been the source of so much murder, carnage and war through the ages - brought to us by people who claimed to be acting in God's name.

I also disagree that MSM coverage favored Obama.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Fri, 19th Dec '08 7:52 PM

I'm sorry Christianity scares you. It scares satan, too.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21605)
Fri, 19th Dec '08 8:46 PM

Jank, I respect you and your beliefs. Really like you for defending me when I voice my often unpopular opinions filled with typos. I am a person who is conservative in my politics but not religious by any standard. To say I vote Republican because I oppose big government spending would be comical in terms of the deficit President Bush accumulated. I believe my issue is more with how money is spent than the amount itself. The current Welfare/ADC program is massive and a a no-win situation as one cannot get off-earn anything-lose it all. I saw this system not working up close and personal for many years so don't tell me how it is supposed to work on paper. Whether Republicans or Democrats have been in control at any level have not seen concrete steps made to correct this. Find it also ironic that the pick for Secretary of Labor was behind raising the minimum wage in California and that state is approaching bankruptcy. I hate labels and I don't have the answer to any of his mess but demonizing the current president while setting such unrealistic and unachievable goals for the new guy shows me that those in charge don't either- Linda

foogs
Foogs  (Level: 267.9 - Posts: 848)
Fri, 19th Dec '08 10:27 PM

No joke necessary...

Couric: You've cited Alaska's proximity to Russia as part of your
foreign policy experience. What did you mean by that?

Sarah Palin: That Alaska has a very narrow maritime border
between a foreign country, Russia, and, on our other side, the
land-boundary that we have with Canada. It's funny that a comment
like that was kinda made to … I don't know, you know … reporters.

Couric: Mocked?

Palin: Yeah, mocked, I guess that's the word, yeah.

Couric: Well, explain to me why that enhances your foreign-policy
credentials.

Palin: Well, it certainly does, because our, our next-door
neighbors are foreign countries, there in the state that I am the
executive of. And there…

Couric: Have you ever been involved in any negotiations, for
example, with the Russians?

Palin: We have trade missions back and forth, we do. It's very
important when you consider even national security issues with
Russia. As Putin rears his head and comes into the air space of
the United States of America, where do they go? It's Alaska. It's
just right over the border. It is from Alaska that we send those out
to make sure that an eye is being kept on this very powerful nation,
Russia, because they are right there, they are right next to our state.

.... I say, What? Illogicalityness scares me.



caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21605)
Sat, 20th Dec '08 3:24 AM

Most things politicians are doing these days from either party SCARES me- Linda

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21605)
Sat, 20th Dec '08 3:39 AM

What I was trying to say, badly as usual, is that I in no way equate my conservative tendencies to Christianity or any other religion or any particular party for that matter. Politicians are not the only players in the daily drama that are scary in their lack of principals and sense of what might be good for anyone else but themselves. Also believe their is enough stupidity and inexperience for the job at hand to go around for everyone-Linda

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 20th Dec '08 9:09 AM

Oh, and Tsk. You fear religions. i fear some, too, but not Christianity.

You know what I fear most? Drunk driving and under the influence driving, and the entire drug culture. Those are the things that have REALLY killed the most people - every year. There are no Christians in your city (or any city?) trying to push an illegal substance to addict your kids to the point they would steal and commit crimes to support their addiction.

Every illegal drug used was bought from a criminal who bought it from a bigger criminal who bought it from an even bigger criminal. Gangs whose existence center on drug usage. Drug wars.

And who is the biggest seller of illegal drugs? Terrorists. That's one of the biggest ways they fund their terrorist, murdering, maiming activities.

How many people here in the U.S. bought drugs which had roots that could be traced back to the terrorists and the way they funded 9/11?

It could be very truthfully said that for every illegal drug you buy, you are supporting the very thing you say you fear most - not religion, but murder and death.

I don't know any Christians who have murdered anybody. (Now, where did I hide that body????? it must be around here somewhere! - No, by no stretch of the imagination is that even mildly funny). Drugs have literally and provably resulted in the death of thousands and thousands.

I pray for you, Tsk, as you somehow don't see how you protest the wrong things and support the wrong things and expect people to believe you. Christians aren't the ones committing those crimes. You have nothing to fear from Christians. I see no Christians in the U.S. threatening anyone with anything, much less killing or maiming them.

Nope, Christians are not perfect or they wouldn't need God. But they are human beings trying to live a good and giving life of service to other human beings. They're doing their best to feed the hungry - not drug them to addiction and death. They're not the ones creating gangs and terrorizing neighborhoods, keeping people scared to death of drive-by shootings and living a life in fear. That's the truth and the reality of Christianity.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 20th Dec '08 9:20 AM

Oh - and for the record, my being a Christian is not something I am on Sunday, or in a church building. It is a desire to live a Holy Spirit-led life. Therefore, it is a part of who I am in every aspect. As a teacher, as a friend, as a driver on the street. I am in the calling to "do all things as unto the Lord" (Colossians 3:17).

That means in everything. That means even as I vote for a political candidate. I believe there is a real will of God, and in reading the Bible, I try to see what is the heart and mind of Christ - what He said for us to strive to do. And I vote for candidates who come closest to meetings those goals set by what God said.

It's not religion - it's not a way of life. It's literally having God guide my life by His word (if I let him!). He hasn't led me to kill anybody or hurt anybody or do anything that would scare or endanger anyone.

It's just the way this human being-woman-daughter-mother-sister-aunt-cousin was called to live her life daily.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21605)
Sat, 20th Dec '08 10:03 AM

Out of respect for you, Jank, and others here I like ever so much here will pass on any further comments other than to note that one does not have to embrace Christianity to be a good person and an upright citizen. President Bush makes no secret that he is a believer in Christianity. The shoe throwing was not offensive io me just because of that fact although try to respect others whatever their beliefs might be or not be. The offense for me was that this "scumbag" could throw shoes at The President of the United States-missing him but hitting our flag. That outrages me!! Linda

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 20th Dec '08 10:30 AM

Sweety, you're absolutely right, and many believe as you do.

I'm just saying what's right for me, and why I vote as I do and believe as I do, and what hurts my heart and why. And I'm very, very grateful. It's Christmas! And I actually get it about why it's Christmas season and why so many celebrate it as such. I am grateful for the chance to celebrate it as I do.

And I understand the shoe-throwing event. But I abhor it. But many of our military have died and been maimed to give that guy the right to express his feelings and survive the event. It was inappropriate. But our military freed Iraq people. The thrower still has his life and his arms. Freedom includes the foolish.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Sat, 20th Dec '08 4:16 PM

Jank, ever hear about the Spanish Inquisition? Now if you're going to argue that those were not true christians, then you can say that about any and all murderers if it suits you. Billions of murders in history have been committed by christians, as well as people from other religions. Just because you wouldn't consider them real christians doesn't make it different.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 20th Dec '08 7:24 PM

Well, I just don't know what to say to that.

Billions of murders by Christians. You really think there have been a billion murders on earth? Altogether? By anybody? In all of history?

And yet billions of murders by Christians.

Just FYI, the total population of the earth during the Spanish Inquisition is estimated as less than 700,000.

I rest my case about what is being taught in this world and the extreme prejudice against Christianity and Christians.



caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21605)
Sat, 20th Dec '08 7:45 PM

Really did not want to get into this and certainly not into "Christian Bashing" but have to go with the folks who say heinous crimes have been committed by people who have declared God was on their side including but not exclusively Christians Believe Germany, Poland, and the other countries who were stood by and did at the minimum NOTHING while the majority of the Jewish population was wiped out in Europe during WWII were basically considered Christian countries. Have not done intensive research of crimes committed in the name of Godliness but am sure the list is long.. Believe the KKK said they were acting by laws dictated in the Bible and are symbolized in history by a burning cross-go figure-Linda

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 20th Dec '08 8:27 PM

You will find deviant, horrors of behavior everywhere. Murderers are sick, deviant people. And there have been some who did murder in the name of God.

However, God put in the 10 Commandments to not kill. Christianity is built on the teachings of Jesus, the Son of God, and Jesus taught love and peace and nothing else but behavior based on love and peace, and to put others before yourself and to love others as you love yourself.

If you put on one side every deviant so-called Christian who murdered someone and on the other side all the Christians who have blessed the world, fed the hungry, helped and healed the sick, and blessed the areas where they live and work, surely all of you can see that the good would far outnumber the bad.

I don't understand the one-sided debate out here and lack of respect. But God does. And He loves you, no matter how you hate and disrespect Him. He created you and knows your heart and why you have come to believe as you do. And God is the one who gave each of you the right to choose whether to believe or follow Him and the shed blood of His Son, and I'm not even an amoeba next to His Glory and Power. So certainly it is not my place to judge anybody for not believing as I believe.

But to lash out at the Christian people who never murdered or hurt anyone - and lump us in with those few deviants (compared with the numbers of humans who have existed in the world) and say you're afraid of us (I don't know of any wild Christians running around strapping bombs to their bodies to blow up others), is just beyond justification.

But drug addicts and pushers and criminals actually ARE to be feared and actually DO murder and hurt many people in this country.

Yet you find these two groups equal in a debate of fear and regarding murder.

And in the end times, right will be called wrong and good will be called bad.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Sat, 20th Dec '08 8:47 PM

I didn't say billions were killed in the Inquisition, I said in history.

chickfbref1
Chickfbref1  (Level: 120.7 - Posts: 2012)
Sat, 20th Dec '08 10:14 PM

I love a great debate!!

There is a reason that our founding fathers specifically stated that church and state SHOULD be separated. Religion has NO PLACE in government, we are a society of totally differing beliefs. No one is right, no one is wrong. That line has become so incredibly blurred lately that I'm sure they would be mortified (or dead, which they are).

There is no place for religion in my politics or for anyone's for that matter. Pray and worship who you will, but kindly keep that out of my government. Just because I don't believe in the same god you do, doesn't mean I should have to have a leader that votes on his religious beliefs. Isn't this one of the same damn reasons that the Pilgrims boarded that ship? Religious freedom? Because personally I feel like Bush has infringed on my agnostic beliefs...and it pisses me off.

And Jank, while I respect your beliefs, there are so MANY MILLIONS of people that have been killed in the name of religion it boggles the mind. (I personally think that Sandra is right, it's prolly billions). Honesty, let's not get into the whole "never hurt anyone" debate, because there are hundreds if not thousands of kids that were products of the Catholic Church who would beg to differ with you. Denigrating it to the "drug pushers' is tantamount to saying who cares who kills multitudes of people, let's focus on people who essentially want to kill themselves. No one said they were equal.

Suffice to say, to each his own. But that's my entire gripe, keep the religion out of my world, life and my politics. I respect your right to worship the way you want. Please respect mine.

Me.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 20th Dec '08 10:22 PM

The Constitution does not say keep religion out of government. It says keep government out of religion.

chickfbref1
Chickfbref1  (Level: 120.7 - Posts: 2012)
Sat, 20th Dec '08 10:44 PM

I didn't say the Constitution...I said that was the wish of our founding forefathers....don't read into it.

Me.

kaufman
Kaufman  (Level: 257.1 - Posts: 3936)
Sat, 20th Dec '08 10:44 PM

The best, nay the only, way to keep the drug money from the terrorists is to legalize it, People will always seek drugs because so many like their effects, enough so they'll seek them from whatever sources are available. So you have to ask yourself, who do you want getting rich off of the eternal desire for the product, the good guys or the bad guys?

chickfbref1
Chickfbref1  (Level: 120.7 - Posts: 2012)
Sat, 20th Dec '08 10:48 PM

Hey!! Didn't they try that whole thing about banning things that people want?

I believe it was called "Prohibition".

Me.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 20th Dec '08 11:00 PM

Kaufman - legalized or not, addicted poor won't be able to afford them, so crime will still be rampant because of them, legalized or not. If they're legal, who do you want to raise the pot, process and manufacture the meth and cocaine and crack? Do you really want factories for that stuff all over the country?

And the terrorists and criminals will still illegally run them into the country. Legalization just opens up more problems, not fewer. The only ones who win from legalized drugs are the governments who get to collect taxes from their sale. It's a lose/lose proposition.

chickfbref1
Chickfbref1  (Level: 120.7 - Posts: 2012)
Sat, 20th Dec '08 11:07 PM

Just a thought, if it's already illegal, and if it is still rampant, and people are still addicted....dunno, just like alcohol, which...never mind.


Legalize it and tax the shit out of it. Make my life easier, it's a victimless crime, just like prostitution.

Me.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 20th Dec '08 11:09 PM

Guys, please. You can do a search and see how many people have actually ever LIVED on earth, much less been murdered. I don't understand you at all. Let's at least be real for the sake of your debate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population

There were never even a billion people on the planet until after the 1800s. There are graphs showing estimated numbers of humans on the planet from 70,000 BC forward.

It's physically impossible for there to have been a billion murders PERIOD - much less a billion murders by Christians. You've lost all perspective on this debate. Christians have only existed since there were estimated 200,000 people on the entire planet. Christianity did not spread to all parts of the earth for hundreds of years after it began. If a billion people had been murdered by anybody on earth, there would be no humanity left (unless it was done very recently - and it wasn't). There just can't be anything but prejudice behind your debate because there are no numbers anywhere to even begin to back up these claims.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 20th Dec '08 11:12 PM

Illegal drug use is not a victimless crime. People using illegal drugs also drive and kill people on the streets, same as drunk driving (as I've said before, my aunt suffered one year before she finally died from being hit by a driver under the influence). Statistics show that half of everyone driving after midnight is under the influence of either alcohol or illegal drugs.

Not to mention the abuse of families, the heartache of families, the robberies and thefts by drug addicts who can't afford their habit without committing crimes against others. There are countless victims of illegal drug usage more than the addicted user.

chickfbref1
Chickfbref1  (Level: 120.7 - Posts: 2012)
Sat, 20th Dec '08 11:17 PM

Jank,

That site gives the population at a specific time, it's not cumulative.

That's the point.

Me.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 20th Dec '08 11:30 PM

You can do the math though.

At the time Christianity began, there were only 200,000 people on planet earth total (again, estimated).

As the population grew exponentially, it would be impossible for anyone to murder a total of a billion people until quite recently (which has not happened in recorded history - and there weren't enough humans before recorded history). Humanity could not have survived a billion murders even cumulately until quite recently. There have never been a billion murders on earth by anyone. And there have never been a billion murders by Christians. There is no data anywhere to support anything like the wild charges made here tonight.

kaufman
Kaufman  (Level: 257.1 - Posts: 3936)
Sat, 20th Dec '08 11:30 PM

Well, no. The use itself is victimless. What isn't is the abuse, or the irresponsible performance of activities under the influence when you are no longer physically capable of doing them. But that's bathwater, not baby.

Of course, this applies as much to, say, alcohol as to some of the substances that happen to be illegal. Marijuana, for example, will impair one's driving just as booze does, but it won't as likely make you agressive and violent. But the laws are arbitrary and capricious. And/or chosen to protect the habits of the ins while ostracizing the outs.


sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Sat, 20th Dec '08 11:31 PM

what's the difference if it's billions or hundreds of millions. it's still HORRIBLE. The exact astonomical # changes nothing.

chickfbref1
Chickfbref1  (Level: 120.7 - Posts: 2012)
Sat, 20th Dec '08 11:34 PM

As of 1995...estimated population ever born is 106 Billion.

http://www.prb.org/Articles/2002/HowManyPeopleHaveEverLivedonEarth.aspx

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 20th Dec '08 11:34 PM

I believe those laws were enacted after seeing the effects of the lack of the laws. And they were made, as most laws used to be, to protect the masses from the few who would cause damage to the others.

Take murder, for instance, since that word has been bandied about tonight. Murders still happen, though there are strong laws against it all over the world. Yet no one would ever dare suggest the world get rid of murder laws since there's no way to stop murders by people who really want to kill.

People die from the abuse of drugs and alcohol. I agree with that. I'm all for laws that do all they can to prevent the killiing of the truly innocent by those abusers.

chickfbref1
Chickfbref1  (Level: 120.7 - Posts: 2012)
Sat, 20th Dec '08 11:57 PM

Jank,

You said murderers...(not I said the fly). Religion and your desire to help everyone can't stop it. Drugs have always been around, and to think that a government can stop it is like bashing your head against the wall. It does no good, except to make you crazy.

There will always be drugs and pot and LSD and booze and meth and coke and heroin and crack and peyote and...you get the picture. They've been around for thousands of years...and will continue to be around past the time that I'm LONG gone.

People will do what they will, how is alcohol any different? It's victimless because it only affects the addicts and their families (I have family members that are addicts...trust me the current system doesn't work AT ALL). Legalize it and tax the shit out of it.

Me.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21605)
Sun, 21st Dec '08 1:45 AM

Could be wrong but believes the Constitution speaks toi separate of Church and State-leads me to believe that meaning was to keep either one out of the other. Not quite sure how the jump was made from religion to drug use but to keep most of the crime out of it side with folks who say legalize and tax the shit out of it. Drug use will never go away as alchol didn't when prohition came it-just lead folks do make and distribute it in secret-thus the criminal element. The fact that overuse of eiteh is not a good thing is evident but by taxing at least reveneues would/could be brought in to help the addiction as well as compensation for vixtims of their reckless acts whille under the influence. Perfect solution-no but far better than what is now in place. Perhaps as you suggest terrorists do use the money from selling illegal drugs-haven't a clue-but legalizing them would certainly dry up that source. Believe most folks who have no religion or not the same one as you do would like to let you practice yours in peace and be peacefll people as you state Jesus intended.. It is your religious "rants" that inject your religion into all topics including politics that folks find offensive. If Jesus is part and parcel of every part of your life-fine. Please don't try to make him a part of mine.. Now you know why I didn't want to go here- Linda

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21605)
Sun, 21st Dec '08 2:03 AM

Would like to say that Ibelieve there are more decent people in this world Christian, Nonchristian or nonbelievers in any kind of Devine Being than there are deviants probanbly why we are still afloat. The new US President will have the most popular Fundametalist Christian pastor- currently in the US-they all have had someone- at his innauguration-troublesome to many on the far Right and the Far Left. If he sticks to saying a prayer and doesn't try to inject his political views about abortion and such believe these objections will take on no bigger impact and his presence will be no more memorable than the others have nor cause any lasting fallout. Linda (He has far bigger problems with any association he has had with the Illinois Governor than he does anyone else however distant he has tried to keep himself. That very governor and his foul mouth most likely attends some kind of church on an at least a semi-regulsr basis as it ha been proven the "politically correct" course of action-Linda

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21605)
Sun, 21st Dec '08 3:51 AM

This point is really controversial but since we have already entered these waters will go there. At the time I was growing up and attending both the Catholic Church and Catholic school the version of the Bible was different then the one I suspect you use, Jank. Don't believe anyone can successfully debate that the Catholic Church is not Christian. For a long time we the average person were not allowed to read it directly as guess deemed too ignorant to interpret it properly and only the priests could do that-eventually were given that right. Different folks representing Christian religions come to my door-mostly Jehovah's Witness and Mormon. Neither of them seem to want money and neither attempt to force me to allow them into my home. Both express interest in talking with me and give me literature though. Find it of particular interest that the Witness folks write the literature they distribute and thus cannot be wrong when they quote it. The Mormons are an impressive bunch all nicely dressed young men in suits and ties. They use a commonly used Bible but also print as a a sort of additional reading material a book called The Book of Mormon. I am polite to both. The point I am trying to make is that truth is only determined by the truth of the source quoted and even among these Christian groups there are different books . In the Michigan History class I took eons ago the text was written by the professor so truth for his class was what was in that book. Great scholars have debated what is said in the Bible let alone other works as well as what is truth and who wrote what-Linda

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Sun, 21st Dec '08 5:26 AM

Jank:

Fundamentalism of any religious stripe is frightening to me. It assumes that things are a certain way based not on logic and observation, but based ultimately on some text or texts (usually ancient) said to be the word of, or at least inspired by, God, and often ambiguous. Moreover, it assumes that the fundamentalist - even assuming that his or her particular brand of fundamentalism is "true" - has correctly understood the meaning of the text - which is almost certainly a translation from a language that the fundamentalist does not even speak. In fact, people who claim they know what God would want done suffer, in my opinion, from extreme hubris. While I know that it is not only Christian fundamentalists who voted for the young Bush, they were certainly key to his victories. In my view, based on the Bush policies, the fundamentalists either did not correctly understand God, or God is a very cruel God indeed, or there is no God -- at least as fundamentalists talk about him. (Yes, I use the word "him" because I have never heard fundamentalists talk about God in any other terms.)

As to the issue of religious wars, your points in this thread address the question of numbers of victims of religious wars -- they do nothing to dispute the basic premise that religion has been responsible for lots of war, carnage, and murder. Now, this bloodthirstiness is ultimately no real problem to fundamentalists because they believe that God will sort it out anyway, and the true believers will have their afterlife in whatever passes for heaven in their religion. On the other hand, it is more of an issue for people such as myself who are philosophical materialists and believe that there exists no body-spirit duality and that when you are dead, that's it for you.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21605)
Sun, 21st Dec '08 7:25 AM

TSK, if I am understanding you correctly, believe we are in TOTAL agreement. Linda

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 21st Dec '08 7:48 AM

Tsk, though I do believe in afterlife, I do agree also with a lot of what you just said. That's the only way horrible wars and deaths could have been caused by so-called Christians after being clearly taught by Jesus to live a life of peace.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 21st Dec '08 8:02 AM

Linda, not interjecting Jesus in my writing here is to not interject myself as a blogger. It's who I am. I didn't say it's who you are or who you have to be. You interject into all your writings the fact that you have been a union member and a teacher and that you have some experience built through your years of life. Why is that any different, you speaking from the viewpoint of all the parts of your life that make you who you are, and my speaking from the viewpoint of the most important part of my life that makes me who I am? Never has one person attacked you because of your union membership or your teaching career. Shame on anyone who has attacked you for anything here.

My politics are not separate from my religion. My politics are BECAUSE of my religion. Period. Any many here have based their politics absolutely on their lack of religion and want no part of a conservative political point of view specifically because some platforms are based on views that agree with biblical principles.

Sarah Palin's home church was set on fire by an arsonist last week. Acts like that, which are numerous in regard to politics and much more numerous in the past about race, come from people who want to be tolerated for their beliefs or lack of them. Christians surely are the last group of people everyone can mock without tolerance and rather than being ostracized for it, they are joined by the masses laughing at us. Which Jesus said all along - that Christians will be persecuted. And believe me, many Christians have themselves been murdered BECAUSE of their belief in God and Jesus, and many many more will be in the years to come. The last, great prejudice which no one sees any problem with is against Christians.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Sun, 21st Dec '08 8:41 AM

Linda attacked no one. And why do you interpret a disagreement as an attack?
She had no comment (you did-sorry) like "I don't know any teacher or union member who has murdered anybody".

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 21st Dec '08 10:10 AM

I believe if you re-read what I wrote, nowhere did I use the word attack or in any way imply attack. I explained why I do interject religion in my writings, as Linda expressed that I should not.

"Attack" and "billions" came from the same place.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21605)
Sun, 21st Dec '08 10:26 AM

DUH.,. equating TSk with Satan sure seems to border on an attack but most likely he like myself does not believe in the existence of such an entity so would not take offense.-Linda

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 21st Dec '08 10:27 AM

Good grief. I did not equate Tsk with satan.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21605)
Sun, 21st Dec '08 10:35 AM

Due to my computer ignorance cannot cut nor paste. Your comment was something to the effect that you were sorry that Christianity scared him and that it scared Satan too-that is by anyone's premise a comparison. I am not going to debate any further with you,. Jank, as I will surely offend many here who I like very much and am quite sure share your views but do not adopt the "in your face" aspect that you do-Linda

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 21st Dec '08 10:38 AM

I'm through with this thread. A few of you have lost your perspective and have made some "interesting" points. I have defended people, I have disagreed with people, and I have come against illegal drug usage, Bush and Palin bashing, and those who throw shoes or wild, unbased claims.

And I'm not mad, and I'm not leaving Sploofus and I'm not changing my core beliefs for anyone. I truly love God and I love my Savior, and I admit it's because they loved me first. I'm against what God is against and I'm for what God is for, as best I can interpret the Word of God and as the Holy Spirit leads me.

I'm guessing those of you who do not have any belief in God still take Christmas off work as designed by your bosses or as head of your own company, you decorate, celebrate, give gifts.

I do all that too - but my reason for doing so is because I believe in the Christ whose name makes the word Christmas and who is the reason for Christmas.

Merry Christmas! Peace on Earth. God loves you more than anything in the universe.

justsomeone
Justsomeone  (Level: 122.6 - Posts: 39)
Tue, 23rd Dec '08 5:31 PM

"God loves you more than anything in the universe."

Unless you are gay or lesbian of course, which the current pope doesn't seem to be too keen on.


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