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caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Wed, 17th Dec '08 12:14 PM

CHANGE IN BASIC GOOD MANNERS

I know I am older than dirt but when I was growing up and when I taught my sons, thought it bad manners for a man not to remove his hat inside a building. Both of my sons were into the baseball cap thing and I would first ask them to remove them inside the house but if they didn't comply would slap it off their head-child abuse, I know. Today the President-Elect named 2 more picks. One sotod there in the press conference wearing a huge cowboy hat. Perhaps this is something which has always been appropriate in Western states or maybe the change is now universal. Growing up women/girls were required to cover their heads inside the Catholic Church-never quite sure why as many things there you just did because they told you to do or not do it. Not Catholic Church bashing-haven't been there in years or most any other church except for funeral for a long time but know that practice has changed. See young men here in Central Fl. wearing woolen hats pulled down over their heads that were common in Mi. winters in the middle of August. These same young men also seem to wear about three pairs of pants at the same time none of which stays anywhere much above the line of "decency" without hands on at all times. Has fashion and correctness changed hat much or am I just really really decrepit? Linda

salzypat
Salzypat  (Level: 156.3 - Posts: 5315)
Wed, 17th Dec '08 12:36 PM

I, too, am older than dirt, Linda. Unfortunately the times they are a-changin' ... dress has become so casual it's hard to tell the difference between work clothes and church clothes (remember when we wore dresses, gloves and HATS to church - not just the Catholic church).

I didn't see the press conference you mentioned. Since you bring it up, I'm guessing it was inside. The only problem with a big cowboy hat is what do you do with it when you take it off? Surely they had empty chairs somewhere, or a coat rack -- course, those hats may be handmade and very expensive, designed specifically for that person's head. A cowboy sure hates to lose his hat. Don't know who it was, but he may not have a clue about being a cowboy either. He may be just a wanna-be.

Dress codes and proper dress is wide open to interpretation these days.



lisap369
Lisap369  (Level: 61.1 - Posts: 992)
Wed, 17th Dec '08 12:41 PM

Both .. j/k Linda... fashion and manners, unfortunately has changed that much. I was an 80's teenager - big hair, tight jeans, lots of make-up and accessories - but even then, the boys were dressed at least somewhat decent.

And, although I am just a few years younger than you, I still take offence when hats are left on inside.

It really is a shame that during this time of great fashion styles for girls, this is the absolute worst era fashion for teen boys/young men.

pepperdoc
Pepperdoc  (Level: 152.5 - Posts: 4286)
Wed, 17th Dec '08 12:57 PM

Probably big hat - no cow.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Wed, 17th Dec '08 1:07 PM

LOL good one!!

lucimoore
Lucimoore  (Level: 183.1 - Posts: 1683)
Wed, 17th Dec '08 1:11 PM

The person was Colorado Senator Ken Salazar. I'm old as dirt too but knew the hat was just part of the Senator, referred to as his signature. He always has it on in public, so I really wasn't offended to see it today. I'd much rather see a hat than an oily or hairsprayed combover. True story: Once when my father-in-law (82 years old) was in the hospital, we were summoned because he had gotten into a combative paranoid state and the staff could not understand what he was talking about. When we all arrived thinking a stroke or worse, he began to almost cry and said that the old woman across the hall kept looking at him and mocking him and he was about to lose his mind. He was on a hall where the front wall of each room was glass for observation purposes. There was no one in the bed across the hall so everyone thought he had lost his mind. He kept yelling "Look at her, she just keeps looking over here!" I moved next to his bed and leaned over so as to get the same view. The "old woman" as it turned out was the reflection of my father-in-law with his combover hanging over on the wrong side. I pulled his hair back over and showed him that he was actually just seeing himself. When he was able to leave the hospital, my husband asked his barber to cut the combover very short. My father-in-law loved it and said he had now joined the ranks of modern man. In regard to Sen. Salazar's hat: If it makes him feel better then that's fine with me. I just smiled when he came walking out. Guess as I've gotten older I just try to remember "Don't sweat the small stuff." Sure makes my life easier. (By the way, my husband just came in and read this post and we have had a good laugh remembering that day with his dad now gone for almost 8 years.)

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Wed, 17th Dec '08 1:22 PM

Thanks for offering the different view. Don't know if a man wearing his hat indoors will ever not be slightly offensive to me but I will most likely die off before this current custom. Do you happen to know if he attends church and if he does does he keep this "signature" hat on his head? Not trying tioo be combative just trying to figure out how out of step I am-thanks-Linda

lucimoore
Lucimoore  (Level: 183.1 - Posts: 1683)
Wed, 17th Dec '08 1:41 PM

Linda I don't know about that. IMHO I would seriously doubt he would wear it in church (he is of Roman Catholic faith by the way) but I don't know if he even attends church. I just try to keep up with the people elected to serve this country and he has been a public figure for many years and has now been picked by our President elect to serve a position in which I am very interested. Maybe there is a Coloradan amongst us who might be able to answer your question.

cujgie
Cujgie  (Level: 173.4 - Posts: 754)
Wed, 17th Dec '08 1:42 PM

Yup, I remember when women and men dressed up to go to the movies and even to go grocery shopping. It used to be thought that how you dressed influenced your behavior and attitude, e.g., preppily-dressed students or students who wear uniforms do better in school.

That said, the cowboy hat and bolo tie have become Salazar's brand. Apparently he is well thought of -- "He has been an outstanding senator and would be an outstanding interior secretary," according to other politicians.

If he leaves his hat on in church, I just won't sit behind him.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Wed, 17th Dec '08 1:52 PM

Thank you-I am certainly not the one to criticize anyone's church attire as I stated have not set foot in one of any kind except for an occasional wedding and now all to frequent funeral. I know that Orthodox Jewish men wear hats everywhere and every man entering a Jewish Temple dons the little skull cap thing-find no offense in that. Just am seeing more and more of things that I was taught were disrespectful like even though at times outdoors people not rising nor men removing hats when our National Anthem is played at things like sporting events. Then again, I was a college student in the 60s the prime era for flag burning, etc-no. i never took part in that-was too frightened by my Catholic school teachings that God would most certainly GET me for such a deed. Linda

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Wed, 17th Dec '08 1:55 PM

Just for the record-did burn my bra though LOL

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Wed, 17th Dec '08 1:56 PM

I don't see why it matters anyways....fashion has always been the parade of the ridiculous IMO. I don't even bother with it. I do take my hat off in restaurants....if my grandma or mom happens to be around, otherwise I don't. I do take it off at church however, mostly because there is always going to be an elder there who would be offended by it. My pants always fit, within reason, nothing too tight, lol.

diva305
Diva305  (Level: 146.6 - Posts: 1651)
Wed, 17th Dec '08 2:13 PM

Hat Etiquette

Hats are a sure-fire way to boost your confidence. A cool hat can quickly become your signature piece and give you extra swagger. Emily Post is quoted as saying, in 1959, “It is impossible for a hatless woman to be chic.” Hats are both stylish and functional. They keep your head warm, distract from a bad hair day, and can shade your eyes from the sun. Hats can give you a touch of class and sophistication, impart personality and add an interesting and unique access to your outfits.

In adopting the hat as your signature piece, you must also accept the responsibility of hat etiquette. Often ignored, hat etiquette will show that your uniqueness extends not only to your choice of headwear, but your manners as well.

For men, remember the following:

First, promptly remove your hat upon entering an elevator, restaurant or someone’s home. And never wear your had during a meal. Also, when greeting a friend, touch the brim of your hat lightly. When meeting a female in public raise the hat by the crown. During the national anthem, remove your hate and place it over your heart.

In Post's "Etiquette: The Blue Book of Social Usage" from 1959, she wrote that men tip or lift their hat only to strangers, not to friends, although a man would lift the hat if he encountered his wife. A hat also is tipped to a woman when passing in a narrow space or when the man speaks to her. If a man runs into a female acquaintance, he must take his hat off when talking to her, but can put it back on if they start walking.

Ladies, however, keep their hats on indoors, everywhere except their own houses. If it's a formal hat, even during the National Anthem, a woman would not remove her hat.
What if the woman and man are both wearing baseball caps? Does it make sense that only the man takes off his headgear during the National Anthem? Probably not, Miss Manners suggests. Without the traditional ladies' hat, she wrote, "you cannot claim the ladies' exemption."

Miss Manners recognizes that some rules vary peculiarly. It is acceptable for Christian women to wear hats in church, but disrespectful for men to wear them. Not so with Conservative or Orthodox Jews, who would find it disrespectful for men not to cover their heads with a yarmulke when in a synagogue.
Hat etiquette is neither confusing nor irritating. Simple consideration for others and respect for all is expected at all times. Hats are another reason to observe proper etiquette. So when deciding to wear a hat to compliment an outfit or distract from a bad hair day, wear it with pride and respect those around you.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Men are required to cover their heads in Jewish synagogues, but only married women wear hats or scarves representing a display of her increased modesty towards those other than the woman's husband.

The small, round head covering or skullcap worn by men is called a “kippah” which means, “dome” or “cupola”. The Yiddish word for the cap is “yarmulke”. The wearing of the yarmulke is a reminder of humility before God, a mark of respect in a Jewish congregation, and a sign of recognition of something greater above oneself, which is why many male Jews wear a head covering whenever they are awake, with the exceptions of bathing and swimming.

It is acceptable for women to wear hats in Christian churches, (it was once required, but the custom has all but disappeared) but disrespectful for men to wear them.

A woman may leave her hat on indoors or during the playing of The National Anthem, unless it is considered unisex like a baseball cap. When wearing such a unisex cap, a woman should follow the same guidelines as for men.

Why are there different rules for men and women? It may have to do with the difference in the styles of men’s and women's hats.

Men's hats are easily removed, but women's hats with ribbons, bows, flowers and other decorations can be quite a production to remove, especially if they're anchored with hatpins. Women might also risk messing up their hairdos if they had to remove their hats. A lady, however, never wore brimmed hats after 5 PM, a fashion rule that developed because she didn't need a brim after sunset.

Diva Hatitude

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Wed, 17th Dec '08 2:16 PM

Jeremy, I always appreciate anything you say. My originial query was not really about fashion, however, although most likely sounded that way. It was more about what I was taught about good and bad manners and respect and disrespect. Guess my reference to the young men's woolen hats in central Florida and how many and the manner they wear their pants would be some kind of comment on fashion. When I see them I cannot help but think how ridiculous they look and how very uncomfortable they must be and the whole extra bother thin of having to hold up at least 3 pairs of pants while trying to do something else. Yup, I am older than dirt-Linda

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Wed, 17th Dec '08 2:20 PM

Thanks for your post, Diva-Linda

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Wed, 17th Dec '08 2:38 PM

I know Linda, just remarking towards multiple comments on the thread.....On the hat issue, I think people who are younger have been taught that's its rude to not take off your hats, but I don't think anyone my age understands why. I'll take off my hat in respect to others, unless I'm lucky and somebody else is already breaking the rule in which case I won't. I have noticed a trend away from taking off hats indoors though among younger type of folks, and I just generally follow whatever it looks like people are doing around me.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Wed, 17th Dec '08 3:32 PM

I understand what you are saying, Jeremy. We are from a different generations-doesn't make either one right or wrong. In my generation older folks were not expected to give kids any explanation other than "because I said so" as a reason why they should or should not do anything. It was also in no way considered "child abuse" if your teacher or your parents spanked you or even slapped your face if your question was in their view "FRESH"! Linda

lucimoore
Lucimoore  (Level: 183.1 - Posts: 1683)
Wed, 17th Dec '08 4:18 PM

Linda, Not arguing with you personally, however let me say it is Abuse with a capital A for anyone to slap a child in the face. I can assure you I am speaking from personal experience. I know many disagree and have different opinions about what abuse is but verbal or physical abuse toward any child should never be tolerated. Try slapping an adult in the face because you don't like what they said or how they said it and see what it gets you or use an implement sized in comparison to what an adult hand or paddle would be to a child and hit another adult with it. Or better yet, let someone slap you in the face or hit you on the rear end or body with that implement. That's called abuse or battery. Why is it different for a child? Are we teaching them how to to fit into society by being smacked or hit. I grew up being smacked, switched, hit with wooden slats, and verbally abused. My mother's mother did it before her and her mother before her, and so on. It's called a Cycle of Abuse that can only be stopped by breaking the cycle. Like I said Linda this is not toward you personally,I just react strongly when someone talks about smacking a child in the face. I'm 63 years old and my mom at 88 years of age still really doesn't get it (and I love her dearly, just don't like what she did). I hope anyone who ever slapped you in the face has a terminal headache because in my opinion, you didn't deserve that form of punishment, no matter what.

donden
Donden  (Level: 112.5 - Posts: 2127)
Wed, 17th Dec '08 4:25 PM

One of the reasons I did not graduate with my class of '56 was " The dress code". I was continually ordered to cut my ducktail, belt my Levi's, get rid of my pointy toed shoes, etc. The final straw came when I was ordered by the counseler to leave school, go to the barber and get sheared. I walked out the door, lit up a Lucky, went downtown and shot some nine-ball. Never went back. Never regretted it and I am sitting here with my Craftsman hat on. No manners whatsoever.

Onward and Upward

bbear
Bbear  (Level: 161.0 - Posts: 2301)
Wed, 17th Dec '08 4:58 PM

Interesting thread.

I think it is possible that men don't take their hats off anymore because their hands are full. Phone in one hand, briefcase or manbag in the other, Blackberry in the third (how many hands can one man have).

What really gets to me is men that don't take their baseball caps off during the National Anthem and don't make their sons do it either. Tacky

I remember fancy hats and white gloves for church (middle of the road Protestant). Here in New Orleans, many of the black inner city churches, both Protestant and Catholic, the women still dress to the nines.

larefamiliaris
Larefamiliaris  (Level: 135.2 - Posts: 877)
Wed, 17th Dec '08 5:04 PM

Only reason not to take your hat off indoors is if you're wearing a costume...

But: you shuck off your shoes a lil' too hard in the company of a soon to be ex-president...


lucimoore
Lucimoore  (Level: 183.1 - Posts: 1683)
Wed, 17th Dec '08 5:14 PM

I can remember the first time I wore pants to church but I am sure it was well into my young adult years (as in over 21). When I started working there was no such thing as pants on women at work and all women were required to wear stockings year round. I later went to work for a college and remember getting a memo from the Administration outlining the rules for they type of slacks women could begin wearing and the jackets or tops that would be allowed to be worn with them. I wore hats and gloves to church practically from birth until I decided to be a semi hippie or flower child (with children) and wear long shirts and sandals and declare my rights as a first class person instead of "sitting on the left side." That's tongue in cheek but I really did enjoy wearing "dress clothes" when I wanted to wear them, just not when I was told I had to in order to be a "proper lady". OMG did I love to try on hats, spent way to many hours on that weakness and had way too many hat boxes. A fine hat just makes you stand real tall and tilt your head just right. My neck has shrunk too much for hats now but I still wear tall heels when I can stand to, my husband loves them too.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Wed, 17th Dec '08 5:33 PM

Lucy, do not believe anyone in this day and age would think of slapping any child if they had any sense at all. Remember in my day it was also believed it was not anyone else's business if a man almost beat his wife to death as she was HIS wife. My form of discipline changed from my parents-did some spanking and shoulder cuffing and noted knocking their hats off but don't recall ever slapping them in the face. They are now the 2 that have them raising there kids differently than I raised them. I can say that the nuns when I went to school would be considered brutal by today's standard. They could wield a ruler with such skill to make your knuckles ache for a week, were experts in using the soap to cleanse your mouth of foul speech, and knew exactly where that nerve was between your head and your shoulder that when pinched would bring you immediately to your knees. All that said not defending it but noting that I came out of it as basically an upright citizen. I knew my parents loved me in spite of the odd slap and got a good education from those evil nuns.-go figure-Linda

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Wed, 17th Dec '08 5:45 PM

Just adding this as found it terrible but interesting. I have never watched U Tube but seems there is a new "game" where young men post videos of hitting each other and often knocking each other unconscious. The news story said there had been very serious injuries and a few deaths-doesn't surprise me -nothing seems off limits these days-Linda

pepperdoc
Pepperdoc  (Level: 152.5 - Posts: 4286)
Wed, 17th Dec '08 7:58 PM

I found this to be the most intriguing of the etiquette rules:

"In Post's "Etiquette: The Blue Book of Social Usage" from 1959, she wrote that men tip or lift their hat only to strangers, not to friends, although a man would lift the hat if he encountered his wife. A hat also is tipped to a woman when passing in a narrow space or when the man speaks to her. If a man runs into a female acquaintance, he must take his hat off when talking to her, but can put it back on if they start walking."

You acknowledge strangers but not your friends by tipping or lifting your hat. But you DO lift your hat for your wife.
You take your hat off when talking to a female friend but put it back on when you start walking.

It sounds almost like that "permission stick" that is used in meetings where you can only talk when you're holding the stick.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Wed, 17th Dec '08 8:08 PM

Jeez, no wonder we quit wearing hats--too complicated!

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Wed, 17th Dec '08 8:52 PM

You'll get a totally respectful hat etiquette from military and ex-military people. My son, out of the Marines, had a Cowboy wedding in a Baptist church in Connecticut. His bride was Cowgirl Barbie - gorgeous. He wore a very modern, short waist tux with black cowboy hat. He wore it as bride came down the aisle, but immediately took it off and held it when she arrived at the altar. As the bride handed off her huge bouquet, he handed off his hat to his best man.

Sadly, he and his wife went to a Shania Twain concert at a stadium in NY (well, not sadly to the concert - we love Shania). He and wife were in the very front as Shania rode a convertible, waving all the way around at the fans. My son held out his hat, and she took it and wore it the rest of the way around the stadium. The sadly is, well, that was an expensive hat gone - she didn't return it, and he didn't mean for her to take it forever. But - it's the stuff family legends are made of.

cujgie
Cujgie  (Level: 173.4 - Posts: 754)
Wed, 17th Dec '08 9:22 PM

About boys' pants -- I am the supervisor for adults and teens who do court-ordered community service at the library where I work. I recently asked Why???? of one 17 y/o who was constantly pulling up his too big jeans. "Oh, I forgot my belt," he said. "Is that what is going on with all the other boys who walk feet wide apart like they have a watermelon between their knees and who may take as many as three steps before they have to hitch up their pants?" My young friend looked a bit abashed. "Well, that's the fashion," he told me. I went on. "Do you know that this so-called fashion comes from prisonwear? Prisoners are not allowed to wear a belt, so pants slip down over non-existent hips." "Really?" he said slack-jawed. "That's why we do this?" The next time he came in he was wearing a belt.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21598)
Wed, 17th Dec '08 9:33 PM

Carol, your post was so interesting. I like the lad you confronted was clueless as to why young men had ever started this awful fashion trend with the pants. Thank you so much-most likely would not be a wise idea for this old woman to approach them in the nearby Walmart and enlighten them though-thanks again keep giving them the message-Linda


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