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Caramel1  (Level: 136.5 - Posts: 21602)
Tue, 10th Feb '09 4:26 PM


President Obama is articulate and charming. However, when a man like Geithner who I distrust in the first place-sorry believe his tax mistake was deliberate and not small by my standards- comes out with a plan to spend trillions with no specifics after that we are told the situation is dire, believe this guy ought to have stayed up late and got some kind of plan together. Also because he had his hands all over the first TARP and was head of the Federal Reserve when people in both parties were rushed into hurrying it through by then President Bush. Also find it very offensive when Senator Chuck Schumer says the public does not and should not care that there are earmarks and yes, Pork, in the package. President Obama is carrying this thing on his own personal popularity-which is a good thing if it works. I have no confidence whatsoever in people like Pelosi and Reid either. The defenders of the pork just seem to bed saying the Republicans did it, now it is our turn. Whatever party or whatever huge plan that does not include specifics about how it will work, I find offensive. Linda

Collioure  (Level: 115.6 - Posts: 9952)
Tue, 10th Feb '09 4:47 PM

Linda, are all those who were dying to know what went on at Cheney's meetings also clamoring for these details, or are they taking a (partisan) pass?

Caramel1  (Level: 136.5 - Posts: 21602)
Tue, 10th Feb '09 6:01 PM

Sorry, Andy, not trying to be snide but haven't a clue as to what you are talking about- Linda ;s ( I resent anything done behind closed doors where politics are concerned- if that makes me partisan which you seem to consider a "dirty" word-also have no idea where my partisan side leans- don't trust the lot of them so want to see what they are doing whether they believe me capable of understanding or seeing the "BIG" picture.).)

Collioure  (Level: 115.6 - Posts: 9952)
Wed, 11th Feb '09 6:09 AM

Well, Linda, partisans object only to secrecy by officials of the other party. Most recent examples

use of TARP money

Dick Cheney's energy meetings

Hillary's health care task force

Hillary's meetings were declared illegal by a court. They went after Cheney for years, and I frankly don't know if he ever had to divulge what went on. I don't understand why Freedom of Info requests can't open up the TARP records.

Caramel1  (Level: 136.5 - Posts: 21602)
Wed, 11th Feb '09 6:46 AM

Okay-now I get that part-thanks for that-still don't GET how anyone can buy into the HUGE impossible to imaginable numbers for most of us without anyone who votes having a clue how they will stimulate. They are being forced onto the folks without trust in anyone by the people excluding at least currently President Obama by folks who do not have the confidence of anyone that I can see.,. Chuck Schumers remark, partisan or not, should be offensive to all. Speculation now is that not only did the stock market drop because of Geithner's vagueness but people are beginning to realize that the leaders of f many large corporations are as crooked as most politicians and thus people are not putting money into the market. GE was given as example-the head guy has run GE stock to the bottom while taking a huge salary and giving huge perks to his Board of Directors. The real irony comes in that the President has made him a member of his economic council. This guy traded with Iran while they gave the folks in Iraq money to blow up US troops not to mention that GE was a sponsor for a Network that was said to be "in the tank" for Obama during the campaign-the corruptness sickens me-Linda (don't believe anyone should trust the folks who handle investments either-Bernie Madoff might be an example)

Caramel1  (Level: 136.5 - Posts: 21602)
Wed, 11th Feb '09 7:28 AM

Think it was old gravely voice Everett Dirkson who said in effert- a billion here, a billion there-pretty soon you're talking about REAL money Linda

Collioure  (Level: 115.6 - Posts: 9952)
Wed, 11th Feb '09 7:49 AM

Linda, Bernie Madoff is not an example. He is an ugly exception (whose case demonstrated how ineffective is the Securities and Exchange Commission)

Caramel1  (Level: 136.5 - Posts: 21602)
Wed, 11th Feb '09 8:00 AM

Is GE an exception too???

Collioure  (Level: 115.6 - Posts: 9952)
Wed, 11th Feb '09 8:07 AM

I am not familiar with the GE story, Linda.

Godwit  (Level: 82.1 - Posts: 434)
Wed, 11th Feb '09 11:34 AM

you two. I have to stop in just to make my day.
(And then exit, stage left.)
The President is not able to come in, despite his wishes to do so, and completely revamp Washington. He is already learning, no doubt, just how deep and wide the chicken coop droppings are, and how big a shovel you need to get anything changed, or done.
Due to laws allowing monopolies, tax loopholes and a host of other things passed decades ago, we now have monster lobbies and corporations and trillionaires, running most of everything. Nearly our entire system is thus corrupt.

Any President-- any politician-- must deal with their enormous power and influence. For me, the fact that these monsters and trillionaires are running the planet IS the problem. What has happened is "we" left a feudal system in Europe where everything was run and owed by a small few super rich. We came to America for freedom from their tyranny. Then, it took a few hundred years for them to get a foothold, and re-create the exact same situation, here, and globally wherever they can. Right now MOST of the property on the planet is owned by a small few, for instance. Most of the resources are being bought up at phenomenal rates, by a small few.

Obama I think believed that he could use intelligence, pre-planning and the strong support of the people to take them on. MAYBE...we'll see. It will take some time, though, and a lot of compromising, and a determination by the free world to get back our middle class and balances of power.

He has already passed a number of good changes. Not based on charm, but on good thinking and planning he did months ago (set out in detail in his book to Americans). I think though we will see his hair start to turn grey pretty fast. We're in a seriously bad way across the globe.

As for tax "mistakes," I agree. There is no way, no how a skilled, high level tax guy doesn't notice his own taxes aren't paid.
But they never claimed he was right. They made him pay it, plus a fine, like they would anyone else caught trying to cheat. That's the punishment anyone gets.

However, if he is good enough to hide his taxes for some years, then he is a very skilled tax guy. Every tax guy learns a thousand ways to beat the system, because his whole job is to look for that in everyday citizens. My mom is a CPA and she says you could make yourself rich overnight, if you want to, since the first thing every tax person learns is how people cheat.
She never did well, since she is so ethical, and she sure believes that isn't right.

The tax system, anyway, is corrupt, like everything else. As I said, there were loopholes of every kind opened up, decades ago, and people have used them. For all we know, there is not a single high level option who HASN'T used those loopholes, so Obama's only choice was to expose someone, make him pay the taxes back, and move on. Wouldn't that be a kick? If there is no one he could have chosen who hadn't cheated? I think that's how corrupt we have become. Maybe he did well to expose someone as a warning to others they need to shape up.

You see, the ground rules are all changed. It's not that we can assume most people are ethical. We can assume, these days, most people are not. That doesn't make them evil. That makes them doing the wrong thing everyone else is doing.

I'm pretty sure any super rich tax guy got there by using those methods for himself. BUT...I think we can rest assured he's not going to be hiding a single penny, in the spotlight he's in now.

Just a different perspective, perhaps.

Leaving now....will stop in with some cookies, later.

Collioure  (Level: 115.6 - Posts: 9952)
Wed, 11th Feb '09 12:01 PM

I'll just comment on a three things.

1. The IRS should have caught Geithner's errors right away.

2. Obama seems to be rolled by his own party in Congress on his stimulus bill. If it doesn't work, it'll be his head, probably not theirs.

3. The biggest problem with our politics today is the influx of big money. So far only a few states have tried to reform campaign financing.

Caramel1  (Level: 136.5 - Posts: 21602)
Wed, 11th Feb '09 12:19 PM

Godwit makes sense-not sure though if Geithner was forced to pay penalties. Do know he did not pay for 01 or 02 even he was forced to anti up for subsequent years so much for his ethics. Think you kind of hit the nail on the head, Godwit, that Obama had to chose among the least obvious unethical people. I think I am going back to watching movies as will sure get physically ill by watching the likes of Barney Frank questioning the unethical bankers on their use of the first TARP. Also cannot stand watching any more when the party in control votes against Charlie Rangle having to step down while investigations are supposedly being conducted as to his failure to pay taxes because he didn't uunderstand he had to do that. Republicans are not one bit better and believve you are also correct, Godwit, that Obama is finding his ideals of his campaign difficult to impossible to implement in the corruption that abounds. Think I am fortunate to have lived the majority of my life not having the technology to become aware of the corruption- Linda

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