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sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Fri, 13th Feb '09 5:49 PM

BAD TIME TO BE A PEANUT FARMER

How disgusting it's becoming with the food industry. I may plant a garden this year.
Back in a Jif!

salzypat
Salzypat  (Level: 156.4 - Posts: 5316)
Fri, 13th Feb '09 5:52 PM

I'm definitely planting a little garden. Don't have room for peanuts though.

Everytime I open a jar of peanut butter and take the first spoonful, I feel like I'm playing Russian roulette! However, I buy only Skippy, Peter Pan or Jif and none of those are supposed to be involved.

Just maddening that of all the things that are possible today, keeping our food 100% safe isn't one of them.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Fri, 13th Feb '09 6:02 PM

I've always been in amazement that this kind of thing doesn't happen all the time. I mean, they have spot inspections, but there are so many plants processing food all over the place and only their personal integrity keeps them going safely day to day.


chickfbref1
Chickfbref1  (Level: 120.7 - Posts: 2012)
Fri, 13th Feb '09 6:03 PM

You've got to be nuts to do that job.

HRH...Me.

bbear
Bbear  (Level: 161.0 - Posts: 2301)
Fri, 13th Feb '09 6:07 PM

Peter Pan wouldn't have let this happy, he would have fixed it in a Jif.

salzypat
Salzypat  (Level: 156.4 - Posts: 5316)
Fri, 13th Feb '09 7:47 PM

Cute Beth and HRH Me.!

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Fri, 13th Feb '09 8:03 PM

Actually, this was all very predictible. The Bush administration decimated the USDA budget for inspections in favor of industry self-regulation. The peanut fiasco is just the latest of a several instances of contamination.

1mks
1mks  (Level: 211.0 - Posts: 5883)
Fri, 13th Feb '09 8:07 PM

Damn, I should have known it was Bush's fault.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Fri, 13th Feb '09 8:24 PM

Don't worry, we have a whole new administration to blame

kaufman
Kaufman  (Level: 256.9 - Posts: 3936)
Fri, 13th Feb '09 9:08 PM

Carter's fault too, of course.

osuzannacollage
Osuzannacollage  (Level: 132.1 - Posts: 1299)
Fri, 13th Feb '09 9:42 PM


Don't blame the farmers. What happens to their produce once it leaves the farm is beyond their control. That's not to say that anyone has done that, but it sure bears mentioning. One slack, careless and profit-greedy company shouldn't be allowed to destroy an entire industry.

My daughter had a stomach flu this past week, and coincidentally, she'd just consumed vast quantities of Reese's Cups, compliments of an admirer. Was it a really a coincidence? I don't know. Will we stop eating Reese's Cups? No way! We will, however, pay careful attention to recalls and advisories about contaminated foods.

Monetary penalties are not enough for something so callous and greedy as this last outbreak. Give the offending manufacturers some prison time, and see how quickly food related companies shape back up. Making folks sick, especially the elderly and young? It's appalling that a mere slap on the wrist could suffice to deliver a message that should be much more powerful. Lock the owners and/or executives responsible up pronto!

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Fri, 13th Feb '09 10:34 PM

Yes, it's true. Young George has a lot to be account for -- but he'll almost certainly never be brought to justice. Because that's how we do things here in America. Not guilty if elected president.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Fri, 13th Feb '09 10:38 PM

You know, he sure is guilty a lot for a stupid guy.

You can't have it both ways - he's either too stupid to do all this bad junk, or he's NOT stupid but just a bad person. You blame him both ways. He's gone. He's neither stupid nor a bad person. And he's not guilty of every bad thing that has or did or was or will happen in this country, as is no other one person either. The accusations are just old trash. Move on. He's not here to kick around any more. You win.

cujgie
Cujgie  (Level: 173.5 - Posts: 754)
Fri, 13th Feb '09 10:51 PM

I remember grocery shopping years ago (25 maybe?) before all the safety covers and such. I watched a young couple in the mayo and jelly aisle opening jars of different brands and flavors, sticking fingers into the contents, and licking their fingers, then going into another jar....................... I reported them. My only fear since the safety thingies were put on has been buying something that has to be kept frozen or refrigerated and wondering if it had been discarded from someone's cart onto any ol' shelf and then reverse shopped back hours later to where it was supposed to be. NOW we have to worry about what has been put inside the bottles and jars and boxes -- plus e.coli and growth hormones in dairy products and meat or pesticides and who knows what on produce.

What can we eat?

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Fri, 13th Feb '09 11:02 PM

Hey Jank: Where is the posting in which I said your hero, young George, was stupid? Based on the policies he pursued, I would argue he is evil.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Fri, 13th Feb '09 11:06 PM

Where in my posting did I ever say he was my hero? But I'm sick of the obsessive Bush bashing. I think everybody is. How can we forget him when you keep bringing him up? You make me think of the old song, "If I kiss you, would you go away?"

salzypat
Salzypat  (Level: 156.4 - Posts: 5316)
Sat, 14th Feb '09 12:35 AM

Hey Tsk, make up your mind. One minute you accuse Bush of being so stupid he couldn't dress himself, the next minute you accuse him of being so conniving that he pulled the wool over the eyes of the whole country (which would take some smarts). You can't have it both ways.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 14th Feb '09 2:50 AM

I don't know where TSK gets his (faulty) info. Often has slanted sources.

This AP article covers the peanut salmonella outbreak rather well.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/health/6233601.html

So, sorry, TSK it's not Bush. He had his pluses and his minuses. This wasn't one of them.

godwit
Godwit  (Level: 78.9 - Posts: 435)
Sat, 14th Feb '09 5:04 AM

I don't think a truly stupid man could become president. Though a person who can do tremendous evil, can also be stupid. Evil is often done by cunning. Not intelligence. Evil can be done as consequence of personality defect--the evil is an unintentional side effect of a personality flaw. I believe that is the case with George.

According to everyone who barbecues with him, George is a charming and likable guy. Even Bill Clinton and President Obama think so. But what he is like around the golf course or baseball game has little to do with the public good. There are other reports that he swears like a banshee and has a number of arrogant, domineering and ugly personal faces. So what? None of us know him personally and unlikely we ever will.

We're sitting here in economic, social, international and personal disaster. We have to talk about how we got here.

I believe a lot of the problems we're having right now started with Reagan. A man I admire, whom I think was a good man. He changed quite a number of laws so that tax loopholes became bigger, monopolies could grow, the rich could become much richer. He believed in "trickle down," his advisors said it would work, and perhaps it did for a time. I feel certain he did not foresee what those laws would help create. Over time, they've given more money, loopholes and power to those who already have them. Leading to super-powers, and high level, widespread corruption. Some of these companies are bigger, with more money, and more power, than entire countries.

I also lived in Texas the 8 years former President Bush was governor. His first act as Governor was to veto a bill that everyone had worked on together for years. It would ask car makers to clean up vehicle emissions. Within a couple of years we went from air that was fine; to three cities with the worst pollution in the country. They had to install signs on the highway to warn us about days the air was unsafe to breath. That was a direct result of the action of then-Gov. Bush.

Another example: he wanted to dump nuclear waste at a site down near the Rio Grande river. Pressure was put by other officials, so he assigned a science team to study his plan. The science team said the site he chose has serious potential for danger, due I believe to an earthquake fault right under the area. They said the site would expose locals to radiation, as well as possibly leak radiation into the river. George had the waste dumped there, anyway.

There was a question of illegal activities involving the governor's circle. Money went to support casino's and certain ships in the Houston area, which is illegal. It went to court, it was being investigated, and suddenly all the papers related to it disappeared. That was the beginning of the closed door, secret meetings and no paper trail policies he kept throughout his political career.

That has nothing to do with democratic or republican. It has to do with a man who from the outset, made poor choices and decisions. He may be a swell guy to his family and friends, but he has a personality flaw. It can be summed up by his own words, "I'M the decider." He repeatedly went against his father, teams of experts, public opinion, CIA Intelligence, Republican tenets...to do what George felt like doing.

Another serious flaw he has--he favors his friends. If you are on his good side, you become a trillionaire. Every one of his closest allies has become a trillionaire. The oil companies, his long time allies, announced record profits last Fall. With any leader, if he and his closest allies prosper in a huge way, while the people they lead sink into recession/depression...that is a flaw in leadership.

George had a long history of making bad choices. He was a party guy in college, he got poor grades, he was a party guy absent most of the time from his military post, he became alcoholic, he ruined a couple of businesses, and then failed to find oil, in Texas.

He finally made a ton of money when I believe it was his father bought him the Texas Rangers baseball team. That was his life, up until he ran for Governor. A really well-connected East coast party boy, an alcoholic, and a repeatedly failed businessman.

When we elected an ACTOR...Reagan...we made a far better assessment. The world laughed at us at first...how typical we would pick someone out of Hollywood as a national leader. But Reagan won them over, because he had class, compassion, intelligence, and of course, the ability to speak and act.

As a national leader, George was a boobie. His policies have hurt or betrayed nearly everyone.

I think we have the right to be quite angry and distressed about the impact of his decisions; and to talk about that, in the course of making things better. It is important to talk things through, examine them, understand what took place. There's no moving on can happen until things are sorted through. For instance, we better look closely at how they were able to ignore the CIA, lie to the Senate and push through a war based on false premises. We need to get over trying to say that never happened, it DID happen, and we have to figure out how, and plug that hole.

Same with Katrina. There was a profound flood in the midwest in the early 1990's--it flooded across state lines, it was so huge. The national guard was there within a day, resources were there, funds were allocated, insurance was paid, infrastructure was rebuilt. Don't tell me we can't handle a huge disaster. Bush, on the other hand, failed us, horribly. I would like to know why, and how that happened.

I would like to know how he managed to create the largest government, and the deepest deficit, this country has ever seen.
We had a huge surplus when he took office. How did he DO that? We need to know so we can put checks into place.

Yes, he's taken his trillions back to his ranch and he's going to jog and golf and hang out with his baseball and oil buddies for the rest of his life. Goodbye, so long. His impact, though, remains. So we need to talk about it.

godwit
Godwit  (Level: 78.9 - Posts: 435)
Sat, 14th Feb '09 5:15 AM

Though not necessarily in here. Some like to talk politics, and many don't. I like the opportunity to hear smart, interested people say what's on your minds. Though I like to come here to relax and play, as well.

Peanuts. I'm reminded of the first time I ever heard of store items called unsafe. Remember Tylenol? When was that? 1970's?

Also, we've had all those deaths and illnesses from things coming from China. Toys, pet food, baby food, medicines, dye in testing fluids, bad seafood. That's become quiet, all of sudden. Is the peanut butter completely unrelated to trading with China?

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 14th Feb '09 5:24 AM

First of all, there is essentially only one disaster - an economic one and it has many, many, many authors. I will list the major ones.

I think Alan Greenspan is the most culpable. Next, Bush and his continuing a practice of appointing go-along guys to the SEC and to other financial bodies with regulatory power. The bankers many of whom ignored long-standing principles that always made them most risk-averse players in the financial community. Barney Frank and Co who insisted on mortgages to those who did not deserve them.

(A note about Katrina - 1 Bush and Co did screw up and so did Mayor Nagin and Governor Blankout 2 This was a storm of a magnitude that the state of Louisiana had decades to prepare for and never did. While rebuilding, they still haven't sought the massive system necessary to protect their state against another perfect storm. )

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 14th Feb '09 5:46 AM

It is important to note that not all banks are in great difficulty.

My son manages risk for a very fine bank in Chicago which steered clear of all this mess. It had record earnings in 2008 and its stock, selling at 17 times earnings, is only down 25% from its 2008 high.

godwit
Godwit  (Level: 78.9 - Posts: 435)
Sat, 14th Feb '09 6:14 AM

Re Katrina:

I understand what you have heard, but in truth the shrimp farmers on the far edge of the coast were first to note the ocean was coming in. They started organizing back in the 70's to shore up the wetlands, but were denied help. Also, it was the constant criss-cross of the oil boats that destroyed the wetlands, in much part, but money from that oil, though the oil rigs are off the coast of Louisiana, doesn't go to LA. Those are Texas owned rigs. So changing the habits of their ships was up to them, and they didn't do it. Third, New Orleans is only a few feet above sea level in much part due to decisions made far upriver, where the Mississippi was diverted and dammed, thus it no longer brought silt to the LA coast, refreshing the land there and building it up. Finally, global warming was in part responsible for the size of Katrina. All of us could or should have been responding to that back in the 50's when they scientists began to tell us.

We can say Houston and other parts of Dallas, the whole state of Florida, many other locations in the US and elsewhere are not prepared or preparing--I was saying once a disaster occurs, there is a big difference between responding, and not responding. We have the example of the midwest floods, recently, to show we have the capacity to respond quite well.

What happened for the Major was there had never been such a massive evacuation before, and they realized too late they could not provide help to those without cars, the disabled, the old. In New Orleans, that's a big population. They initially said there would be buses and other transport out; then they realized no, we can't do it. So those people were all stuck. As you know, New Orleans has only two options for getting out. Across the massive lake on the bridge. Or across the swamps via a raised highway. Though the evacuation went well, New Orleans is far south from the exits, so those without transport or well health can't make it. One woman walked out, we know that. A donkey took a pregnant woman out. Some horses and dogs rescued people. Even a young boy stole a bus, loaded it with people and got them out, early on. There was a policeman who rode a horse back and forth, back and forth, saving people. He disappeared eventually and is presumed dead. The whole media portrayal that they all sat around crying helplessly for help is not correct. What they didn't have was the national level help any area needs, and has always gotten. There is nothing the Mayor or governor could do about that.

So...the Mayor/gov had no choice but to offer them some kind of shelter, bad and ill prepared as it was, as the hurricane approached. So they opened the dome to them.

No one knew the levee's would break, and in several spots. It was the levee's breaking (not a city or state function but a national job the Corp of Engineers is responsible for)...that's what flooded the city, and caused the disaster.

The main problem then, besides the fact we all went to sleep believing we had escaped damage and the hurricane had passed... was our national guard was not here. They were over in Iraq. Thus no assistance was called or available for some days. If the levee's had not broken, New Orleans had the biggest, most successful evacuation in US history. Houston would copy them not long after when a hurricane went that way. It went great, because they didn't have the levee's break.

Glad to hear your son is doing well. We need all the pockets of healthy commerce we can get.

Environment, health care, global warming, national relations, debt to China and the war are other big problems. Not just economics.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 14th Feb '09 6:52 AM

Mullarkey, Godwit

Everyone should have known the levees would break. Even if secure, they were built to withstand a category 3 storm. Katrina was a 5. NO CONTEST!

Louisiana and its Gulf Coast have been UNIQUELY vulnerable to such a storm for decades, and because of their extensive lowlands and a major city lying below sea level, the potential loss was enormous.

Nevertheless their politicians never sought the kind of system necessary to protect the area - and over the decades they have had some very powerful people in Congress from both parties. Now maybe they are talking to the Dutch while poormouthing us for help to rebuild (without protection again).

The governor refused to cooperate with the feds. She did not run for re-election, did she?

The Mayor? Well, I will not soon forget that photo of all those school buses. Neighboring states did work better with the feds and had better results. No excuses for those two, please!

A result of global warming? Really now!!!! Did we not also have global warming the following year when there were very few hurricanes?

PS What other myths have you bought into?

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 14th Feb '09 6:54 AM

Pardon me. I left out something.

Sheesh!

oldcougar
Oldcougar  (Level: 220.4 - Posts: 1935)
Sat, 14th Feb '09 8:35 AM

The majority of climate scientists agree that global warming is primarily caused by human activities such as fossil fuel burning and deforestation. The conclusion that global warming is mainly caused by human activity and will continue if greenhouse gas emissions are not reduced has been endorsed by more than 50 scientific societies and academies of science, including all of the national academies of science of the major industrialized countries. The U.S. National Academy of Sciences, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the American Meteorological Society, the International Union for Quaternary Research, and the Joint Science Academies of the major industrialized and developing nations explicitly use the word "consensus" when referring to this conclusion.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 14th Feb '09 8:47 AM

We don't know if human-induced global warming exists or not.

However, we ought to be acting as if it did.

That said, the idea that Katrina was a result of global warming is ridiculous.

It looks to me like there is on average at least one category 5 hurricane every year.

Eventually one of them was going to hit New Orleans.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.3 - Posts: 21601)
Sat, 14th Feb '09 9:01 AM

Please tell me, Randy, that you are not among those looney PITA people who believe that the biggest cause of global warming is hog growers and meat eaters in general. Everyone has a right to be a vegetarian but since peanut butter is believed to provide protein that they lack from eating meat, they not might want toi think of another source to get that-Linda -

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 14th Feb '09 9:47 AM

Last year was the first year since they have been keeping records that there was no sun spot activity. And the temps across the planet were lower.

I'm just sayin'.....

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.3 - Posts: 21601)
Sat, 14th Feb '09 10:37 AM

I too am not sure if global warming exists. Do know that there has been a name change-now climate changes. I am sure every new administration does it but this one has really caught my eye. "Bailouts" are Bridge loans- no longer stimulus plan but Economic Recovery and Reinvestment Plan. Earmarks are now called something to do with environmental protection which in the end means some kind of mouse in Nancy's district gets a huge sum of money to keep it in existence. Don't know what palatable label was given to Harry's train from from Ca to Vegas. Whether you believe Acorn should be funded or not since they are under investigation for fraudulent voter registration they will get money in the form of Block Grants. There is no more "WAR" on terror just as students no longer think getting under their desks will protect them from Communism. Just believe everyone should be informed of what is happening. I have pointed to just a couple as even the people who voted to pass it had no time to read what they were voting on. Andy, pointed out to me that "partisan' was a name given by the party out of power to the closed door meetings by those in power and I appreciate him doing that as now i have a name for what is going on that will not be deleted. I appreciate Enthusiasm by anyone in anything politicians do as it is often quite boring-think that deliberate a bit. Those who hate Bush so much think will have to admit that many of the policies he got were on the wave of fear after 9/11. People never looked nor perhaps had a chance to look at behind the scenes things-not sure if that is good nor bad Just want folks to realize that the campaign is over and the promise to be all things to all people is an impossible to keep. Whether you like the policies or the bills or not or agree with them or not take time to know with what you are approving-I didn't for a very long time- Linda

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 14th Feb '09 10:46 AM

Linda, ACORN is getting block grants???? You've got to be kidding.

And Nancy Pelosi is getting $30,000,000 to save the the endangered salt marsh harvest mouse in SF Bay.

So much for the new politics.

Seems we've been had!!!!


caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.3 - Posts: 21601)
Sat, 14th Feb '09 2:21 PM

Not sure who has his name on this one but a large amount going to Phiillipino War Veterans most of whom not living in the US- ;(

oldcougar
Oldcougar  (Level: 220.4 - Posts: 1935)
Sat, 14th Feb '09 2:23 PM

No Linda, I love meat. Cows fluffing is the least of our problems How we raise what we eat does concern me, though. I try to buy poultry & meat that has been raised in the most natural way possible & as close to home.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 14th Feb '09 4:27 PM

Right on, Randy.

Free range has the most falvor.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 15th Feb '09 6:00 PM

Gee, Godwit, did you crawl under the table?

No more courage to blame Bush for what Nagin and Blankout didn't do?

Bush did screw up, but federal help arrives only after the storm passes. It was late and insufficient in Louisiana after Katrina.

However, state and local people are the first responders. Your worthless mayor didn't even execute his own evacuation plan. That's why you had so many people at the SuperDome. Most of them should have been evacuated BEFORE the storm passed. Thus the media portrayal of those sitting around crying for help IS accurate.

I'm sure you love your wonderful city that was, but the responsibility for the great loss lies in your backyard with those who didn't act many years ago to seek the funding put in place a huge dike and seawall system that could withstand a category 5 hurricane.

Shall I name some names? Senators Ellender, Johnston, Long and Breaux 3-to-6 terms each plus all your governors and long-serving Congressmen, esp Bob Livingstone. Those are the people who let you down bigtime.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 15th Feb '09 6:24 PM

Katrina was only a Category 3 hurricane when it hit Lousiana. The castrophe occurred because of the failure of the levee. There is enough blame to go around for the loss of life, but somehow President Bush got the blame. First reponders are ALWAYS the local authorities.

But had the levees held as they were supposed to for a category 3 hurricane, the loss of life would have been nowhere as extensive.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 15th Feb '09 6:43 PM

OK, a strong category 3.

Thank you.

Dialing that in makes the Louisiana's preparation for a big storm (decades as well as days in advance) even more inadequate.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 15th Feb '09 6:44 PM

Exactly - and even moreso shows the inferiority of the levee structures.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 15th Feb '09 7:10 PM

The levees apparently are doused in local politics such that the work on them is not necessarily of high quality.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 15th Feb '09 7:11 PM

However, those levees even well-maintained are not sufficient over a period of 50 or 100 years.

godwit
Godwit  (Level: 78.9 - Posts: 435)
Tue, 17th Feb '09 2:19 AM

Wrong. Nothing to say because you are way out in left field.
Next topic, will engage.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Tue, 17th Feb '09 3:34 AM

No, Godwit, you are in left field. You swallowed hook-line-and-sinker all the finger-pointing done by Louisiana politicians to blame someone other than themselves for the devastation that a perfect storm finally wreaked upon their still unprotected, vulnerable coastal state.

godwit
Godwit  (Level: 78.9 - Posts: 435)
Tue, 17th Feb '09 11:35 AM

no. I was there.
I was there before.
I was there after.
I have been in disasters in other locations, such as the midwest flood I mentioned, and other hurricanes.
I have read extensively as well.
It's you who is far away, gleaning from the news, in this case.
So let's do a different topic.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Tue, 17th Feb '09 11:41 AM

Being there seems to enable you to try to blame everything on Bush, but it is your past Louisiana political leaders and the then current mayor and governor who are far and away primarily responsible. You needed to have begun a mammoth project in the early 90s to have avoided such a catastrophe.

Not having done that, can you tell us what is happening now?

kaufman
Kaufman  (Level: 256.9 - Posts: 3936)
Tue, 17th Feb '09 6:24 PM

While the state and municipal governments deserve their share of the blame, putting an incompetent yahoo of a buddy in charge of FEMA was utterly unforgiveable. If someone responsible were in charge, they might have been able to organize the other elements.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Tue, 17th Feb '09 6:34 PM

And yet Mississippi was hit by the same Katrina, with the same president and the same head of FEMA, and they came out much better than Louisiana. The difference is the local leadership. They have to get people out of the way.

And parts of New Orleans are actually below sea level. All that land was good for is what it was used for. No one should be allowed to live anywhere near the coast in an area below sea level. There has to be some common sense used somewhere.

I don't care where I live, if there's a hurricane coming or a tornado - I'm not waiting for someone else to do something. I'm getting my family and getting out. There are churches everywhere willing to help people. Go to the church instead of the government. The government is a huge mess of bureaucracy. The church is full of people who will genuinely go out of their way to help you.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Wed, 18th Feb '09 6:33 AM

Like I said. Bad time to be a peanut farmer.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Wed, 18th Feb '09 6:37 AM

Fortunately I'm not, Sandy.

Oh, never mind!


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