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tuzilla
Tuzilla  (Level: 134.1 - Posts: 3779)
Sat, 9th May '09 1:08 PM

A QUESTION OF PREJUDGMENT, PRESUMPTION AND INTOLERANCE

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090508/ap_on_re_us/us_school_dance_flap

Such a fine, forgiving Christian attitude.

lodi
Lodi  (Level: 98.8 - Posts: 2144)
Sat, 9th May '09 1:13 PM

Extremists, in all forms, suck.

These people are batsh** crazy.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 9th May '09 1:14 PM

It's just intolerance to me, Steve, but I'd be interested in hearing from someone who supports the fundamentalist school's position.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 9th May '09 1:46 PM

First of all, never heard of such a thing.

Second, if they signed an agreement to abide by such crazy rules, they are as crazy as the school.

Third, if they signed an agreement to follow such crazy rules, the school has the right to act as it wishes. I can't imagine enough people agreeing to such craziness for the school to even exist, but obviously they do.

ladyvol
Ladyvol  (Level: 205.4 - Posts: 5491)
Sat, 9th May '09 1:51 PM

Total craziness if you ask me...I'm a Christian and I don't see anything wrong with dancing or music..if that were so God would have punished me a long time ago! There is a Christian school here where I live and they have no rules like this one. In fact, they have their own prom!
Vickie

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sat, 9th May '09 1:57 PM

This makes absolutely no difference to me but believe a sarcastic phrase like "such a fine Christian attitude" is much me offensive than any political statement- Linda

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sat, 9th May '09 2:11 PM

So sorry-omitted the word "forgiving'-have to practice copying someone's exact words so I don't misquote anyone-the sarcasm was there with or without that word, however, and every bit as offensive perhaps we should discuss Fine Jewish or Muslim attitudes-your call- Linda

papajensai
Papajensai  (Level: 193.3 - Posts: 1025)
Sat, 9th May '09 2:14 PM

I heard they had a rule against having sex while standing up, too. Someone might see you and think you were dancing.

madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.6 - Posts: 893)
Sat, 9th May '09 2:45 PM

One of my favorite jokes, Ron.

First, I wonder whether a 17-year-old can be held accountable, legally, for a signature, and especially one for this purpose. Second, if he has completed the requirements for high school graduation, can the school deny it, under state law. In other words, does graduation from this school meet state standards.

We had a situation in our school where our principal, several weeks in advance, warned students who participated in senior sneak (skipping school and partying) that they would not be allowed to graduate or participate in student activities for the rest of the year. A large group did anyway, and the principal followed through. Some of the kids had parents in high places and they found out that the principal could not stop their graduation. It could exclude them from school events for the rest of the year.

lodi
Lodi  (Level: 98.8 - Posts: 2144)
Sat, 9th May '09 3:06 PM

All I know is somebody's gonna cut loose. Maybe even foot loose.

suzer22
Suzer22  (Level: 165.6 - Posts: 1982)
Sat, 9th May '09 3:07 PM

At my school, senior pranks will not stop you from graduating if you fulfilled all the requirements, but it will stop you from participating in the graduation ceremony. Those are two different things.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 9th May '09 3:40 PM

They'd catch me. No one would ever think I was dancing.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sat, 9th May '09 3:45 PM

Hard for me to imagine anyone killing masses of people and blowing themselves to bits in the process in the name of their Divinity-how forgiving and tolerant of them-seems rather rigid to me-perhaps even EXTREME intolerance. Still don't believe it wise for anyone other than Justin to start a thread on religion-mocking tones or not-Linda

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 9th May '09 4:05 PM

I'm so used to being mocked for my faith and beliefs it kind of flew under my head.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 9th May '09 4:22 PM

I think that is unfortunate too, Jank.

I'm not religious but I can spot Christian-bashing a mile away and I just hate it. I've been hearing it since early in the Clinton admin.

Say whatever you want about Christianity, but it along with Judeo-Christian ethics are at the foundation of the success of Western Civilization.

tuzilla
Tuzilla  (Level: 134.1 - Posts: 3779)
Sat, 9th May '09 4:43 PM

Linda, perhaps it is due to your self-professed lack of Christian following, but you should ready a little about the concept of forgiveness, as it relates to Christianity and its beliefs and attitudes. Also, pay attention to the fact they are threatening a person way before anything has happened, and it may never happen.

I agree with Janice, that it is within the school's right to punish behavior if they signed the paper...but I still of more of the forgiving love the sinner, hate the sin school. Seems like an exclusive, not inclusive sect.

No, Christians are not so much into blowing up themselves in the name of their religion. The extreme fundamental Christians, such as the KKK, anti-abortion folks, etal prefer blowing up other people

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sat, 9th May '09 4:53 PM

Yes, and then there were the Japanese who used their planes to destroy ships for the country- Religions make their own rules and if you choose to practice them you do and if you don't you don't. I was raised a Catholic and raised my kids the same-now choice is theirs. I also am a product Catholic Schools- extreme discipline at times but quite a good education. Saying one thing and doing another not exclusive to any religion-our current Administration is an excellent exampled- in short hypocrisy not limited to any religious group- Linda

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 9th May '09 4:56 PM

"Saying one thing and doing another not exclusive to any religion"

Isn't that what Steve brought to our attention in the first place?

lodi
Lodi  (Level: 98.8 - Posts: 2144)
Sat, 9th May '09 4:56 PM

Contracts with minors are voidable at the behest of the minor. I'm curious about the level of duress these minors would have to be under to sign such a thing in the first place.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sat, 9th May '09 5:03 PM

The article was never the point of what I thought offensive-school obviously extreme-but Steve's remark about Christians- has qualified his dislike now to the Fundamentalist folks- was snide and offensive-Linda

papajensai
Papajensai  (Level: 193.3 - Posts: 1025)
Sat, 9th May '09 5:21 PM

Oh, for Pete's sake, Linda.

He said "Such a fine, forgiving Christian attitude" or something like that. It was irony. He didn't say anything about "Christians", except that these people weren't showing the attitude you might expect of Christians, given what the group generally preaches. That's not Christian bashing, it's bashing those idiots who run the school.

Okay?

fudypatootie
Fudypatootie  (Level: 197.3 - Posts: 1302)
Sat, 9th May '09 5:58 PM

I taught at a Christian school for 5 years. In my contract, it said that I would not consume any alcohol. I honored it because I did sign it knowing fully what was in there, even though I don't share the same belief. I agree that the concept of dancing as a sin is ridiculous, but they had to know what they were signing before attending that school and they can be held to it. Just consider how the kids in the Bong Hits for Jesus flak were ruled against by the Supreme Court, and that was a public school, if memory serves.

Linda, the point is that we Christians like to rest on the knowledge that we are forgiven by God for wrongdoing, but many so-called Christians are not forgiving of others' actions. I am a Christian and I was not offended by Steve's ironic aside.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sat, 9th May '09 6:01 PM

You are most likely correct, Ron and Steve was pointing out the hypocrisy in this Christian school. When I post on something political there is no doubt that is what is what i am doing. Perhaps this is a meanful post and I simpy missed the irony of it all dunno..

garrybl
Garrybl  (Level: 280.2 - Posts: 6643)
Sat, 9th May '09 6:24 PM

First of all Ron and Madamec8 I can see we have the same sense of humor. Coming from a non-orthodox Jewish background I know a lot of people whose favorite joke this is.

Secondly Linda I’m sorry you were upset by Steve’s phrase. I think I can see why and I don't disagree…. And I assume that means that all of us including you will avoid making such snide references in the future to avoid giving gratuitous hurt and weaken our argument? So your comment about Jewish and Muslim attitudes would fit right into that.

We can all hold strong views but we don't have to give offense by ad hominem arguments. Politeness costs nothing. I'm guilty of the crime as much as anyone I suppose.

madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.6 - Posts: 893)
Sat, 9th May '09 6:34 PM

Andy, Christian bashing has been going on ever since Christianity began I know what you're talking about in recent times, though, and it really took off when the far right religious groups took control of the Republican Party and the word 'conservative' took on a new meaning. Unfortunately, Christianity as a whole was hurt by the politicizing of their faith, using the government to push their agenda. These same groups even smear other Christians who don't hold to the same fundamentalism they believe in. Challenging schools such as the one mentioned is not Christian-bashing, but they can play the Christian card in much the same way as some play the race, gender, or whatever other card when it suits their purpose.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 9th May '09 6:54 PM

Colleen, I don't agree that what the Cultural Right and Republicans did justifies the Christian-bashing I've been hearing from the Left since the early 90s. For me that's really intolerant.

BTW I have nothing in common with the Cultural Right.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sat, 9th May '09 7:23 PM

If that is your way of urging me not to make political posts, Barry, forget it. Religion or lack of it is not controlling almost everything in my life but the government is right down to my last cent- and it scares me. Also agree with Madamec8 that somehow the Republican Party has opened itself up to bashing because Conservatism now equates with Fundamentalist Christianity (nothing against these folks) - makes a good target . I am conservative in most of my views but don't like the label nor the target on my back-Linda

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 9th May '09 7:34 PM

Ahy, thar's the difference, matey!

Bashing Republicans is fair game. Bashing Christians is intolerant. There is a difference.

garrybl
Garrybl  (Level: 280.2 - Posts: 6643)
Sat, 9th May '09 7:36 PM

Linda I assume you can read me but maybe not understand me. I'll explain; and all the words will be one/two-syllable from now on; I promise.

Write what you like.
The idea was for all of us not to make mean mean comments along the lines of the one you hated so much. It weakens the power of your comment and upsets other people.
I repeat; write on what subject you like; just focus on facts not snide asides about the people you dont like


caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sat, 9th May '09 7:43 PM

Believe Collen's point was that since the Republican Party in the minds of many usually when it suits their purpose, it is inseparable from Fundamentalist Christianity-thus bash on bash the other- fair or not that is what is being done- Linda

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 9th May '09 7:50 PM

As noted, there is a difference between bashing Republicans and bashing Christians.

Sorry, but IMO nothing justifies Christian-bashing. Just like racism, I know it when I see it.

(FYI in some elections the cultural conservatives split their votes 50-50 between the two parties.)

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sat, 9th May '09 7:51 PM

Wow, that was certainly polite of you, Barry. Yes, I can comprehend "See spot Run". I never noticed you had any sense of humor except at the expense of someone else. I am more than sure that anything I say along political lines you will construe as "snide' SO... TOTUS=FAKE Speech

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 9th May '09 7:51 PM

"Christians are not so much into blowing up themselves in the name of their religion. The extreme fundamental Christians, such as the KKK, anti-abortion folks, etal prefer blowing up other people"

Sigh....because all we Christians have been members of the KKK, or at least know somebody in the KKK. I just can't keep my sheets white enough. I think I blew up 2 or 3 abortion clinics last week while we were out of school for the swine flu scare. We all do it. They won't baptize us if we don't sign a contract to be racist building- blower-uppers.

It's the anti-Christianity party line to use in the bigotry against Christians - "KKK and blowing up abortion clinics". Because most Christians are out there being loving, giving, kind, gentle, selfless people who serve others and give to others in need, and they're working every day and supporting their families and just doing God's work wherever and whenever asked, so there's not much to use as a bad example against them except endlessly bringing up a few horrible people who have committed some horrible crimes.

And just because somebody claims to commit a crime in the name of Christianity doesn't mean they were or are Christians. But at least their claims to be give those who hate Christianity something to use as ammunition.

I do know this, which is provable fact, rather than prejudicial, inflamatory words tossed about.

Since 1973, over 40 million Americans have been not blown up but rather purposely killed before they had the chance to see the light of day out of their mother's womb.

In whose name are those innocent souls' lives ended?

Talk about a holocaust.

But by all means, let's be hateful to the group of Americans who probably do more to feed the poor and help the helpless than any other organized group in America. Because you know you can. Because you know they won't fight back. Because you know they're out being good people helping others.

After all, the only people you can say hateful things about in America any more without being thought of as using hate speech are Christians and overweight people. It's open season 24/7 on these two groups.

All you have to do is watch just about any show on TV to see what I say is true.

salzypat
Salzypat  (Level: 156.5 - Posts: 5316)
Sat, 9th May '09 9:40 PM

When I was a teenager (back when the rocks were still cooling), the United Methodist Church did not allow dancing or playing cards. The minister's daughter wasn't allowed to leave her house until she went back to her room and removed her fingernail polish.

Now look at the UMC! What a turnaround in 55 years or so.

There are very fundamental church sects that do not approve of many things. What surprises me is that this young man has a stepfather. I would guess that the boy's father died and the mother remarried. Surely with such strict guidelines they would not allow a child from a divorced family attend the school.

I agree with whomever said if he has earned the credits set by the state, they cannot withhold his diploma from him. It's also my understanding that a contract of any kind signed by someone younger than 18 is not binding. I doubt very much whether this is a true "contract" anyway.



caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sun, 10th May '09 3:02 AM

Having gone to Catholic school, know that any kind of private/ religious school sets the rules and if you don't like them or follow them -get OUT. Don't even remember them giving me any kind of contract to sign. The fact that Notre Dame which calls itself a Catholic University is "bending" those rules and giving him an Honorary degree upsets many. The University policy is not to honor anyone-guess giving a degree would fall unto that category-who publicly does not agree with what the teachings of the Catholic Church. You can say that is silly wrong and/or the Catholic Church is hypocritical. My view on it is that if Obama had any class he would bow out (good at that) of it-but can't hope for that. Sure he will give Notre Dame "bailout" to make up for the contributions from many alumni being withheld. Wonder if TOTUS will also be receiving a degree.. LOL Linda

achad
Achad  (Level: 204.5 - Posts: 661)
Sun, 10th May '09 4:00 AM

"And just because somebody claims to commit a crime in the name of Christianity doesn't mean they were or are Christians. But at least their claims to be give those who hate Christianity something to use as ammunition."

You can also substitute any other religion/creed for "Christianity" with the same degree of validity!

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 10th May '09 4:42 AM

I don't agree, Andy.

IMO the word Muslim just doesn't fit. Too many Muslim leaders urge and condone violence.

achad
Achad  (Level: 204.5 - Posts: 661)
Sun, 10th May '09 5:04 AM

So, a few leaders (of any religion/creed) urging and condoning violence is OK, but, too many is beyond the pale?

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 10th May '09 5:09 AM

In that singular case, Andy, it isn't just a few, and the religion itself preaches intolerance of infidels.

achad
Achad  (Level: 204.5 - Posts: 661)
Sun, 10th May '09 5:22 AM

Andy, your statement may be true, but it doesn't answer my question.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sun, 10th May '09 5:52 AM

Depends on who is doing the judging of okay. Bush was demonized for killing civilians in Iraq as is Israel for killing civilians in the Gaza Strip. However, Obama can justify because people want to justify what he does sending drones into Pakistan where they obviously kill innocent people. Don't believe Bush nor Israel nor Obama for that matter ever said they were doing what they were doing for God's sake. The 9/11 attackers did, however! Linda

achad
Achad  (Level: 204.5 - Posts: 661)
Sun, 10th May '09 6:15 AM

The following is a transcript of the Presidential Oath of Office sworn earlier this year:

ROBERTS: I, Barack Hussein Obama…

OBAMA: I, Barack…

ROBERTS: … do solemnly swear…

OBAMA: I, Barack Hussein Obama, do solemnly swear…

ROBERTS: … that I will execute the office of president to the United States faithfully…

OBAMA: … that I will execute…

ROBERTS: … faithfully the office of president of the United States…

OBAMA: … the office of president of the United States faithfully…

ROBERTS: … and will to the best of my ability…

OBAMA: … and will to the best of my ability…

ROBERTS: … preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

OBAMA: … preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

ROBERTS: So help you God?

OBAMA: So help me God.

So, is it with the help of God that the current President (and previous ones) have gone to "war" (against a variety of idealogical and religious opponents)?

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sun, 10th May '09 6:50 AM

Was that the first public oath he took with his hand on the Bible or his second one behind closed doors-no Bible in sight?? LOL Linda

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 10th May '09 7:26 AM

None of therm urging violence is OK, Andy.

achad
Achad  (Level: 204.5 - Posts: 661)
Sun, 10th May '09 7:34 AM



collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 10th May '09 7:52 AM

Andy, can you cite an example of the US going to war against a religious or ideological opponent for reasons of beliefs?

achad
Achad  (Level: 204.5 - Posts: 661)
Sun, 10th May '09 8:45 AM

Extract from: Religion and the Founding of the American Republic.

"Religion played a major role in the American Revolution by offering a moral sanction for opposition to the British--an assurance to the average American that revolution was justified in the sight of God. As a recent scholar has observed, "by turning colonial resistance into a righteous cause, and by crying the message to all ranks in all parts of the colonies, ministers did the work of secular radicalism and did it better."

Ministers served the American cause in many capacities during the Revolution: as military chaplains, as penmen for committees of correspondence, and as members of state legislatures, constitutional conventions and the national Congress. Some even took up arms, leading Continental troops in battle.

The Revolution split some denominations, notably the Church of England, whose ministers were bound by oath to support the King, and the Quakers, who were traditionally pacifists. Religious practice suffered in certain places because of the absence of ministers and the destruction of churches, but in other areas, religion flourished.

The Revolution strengthened millennialist strains in American theology. At the beginning of the war some ministers were persuaded that, with God's help, America might become "the principal Seat of the glorious Kingdom which Christ shall erect upon Earth in the latter Days." Victory over the British was taken as a sign of God's partiality for America and stimulated an outpouring of millennialist expectations--the conviction that Christ would rule on earth for 1,000 years. This attitude combined with a groundswell of secular optimism about the future of America to create the buoyant mood of the new nation that became so evident after Jefferson assumed the presidency in 1801."

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sun, 10th May '09 9:57 AM

Very persuasive, Andy, but m a it foggy on the date where the US invaded Britian...

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sun, 10th May '09 10:11 AM

don't like this wireless keyboard-couple that with my usual typos and it doesn't come out well. My last post was supposed to read am a bit puzzled-either way still am-Linda

achad
Achad  (Level: 204.5 - Posts: 661)
Sun, 10th May '09 10:21 AM

Linda,
Andy (Collioure) asked "can you cite an example of the US going to war against a religious or ideological opponent for reasons of beliefs?"
My previous post was in response to this question.
Andy.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sun, 10th May '09 10:39 AM

I will not speak for Andy as he will accuse me of misquoting him as he usually does. There has been lengthy debate here and believe almost everyone concurs that wars and atrocities have been committed by many with the premise that God was on their side. Personally, again not speaking for Andy but would like an example where the US attacked another country for their religious or ideological beliefs. I don't doubt that the US has done political maneuvering or stayed in countries because it gives them strategic advantage just want the example of where the US attacked another country because of their religion or creed-Linda

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 10th May '09 11:25 AM

The Revolutionary War is the best example you can cite???

Go hide in the closet, please.

achad
Achad  (Level: 204.5 - Posts: 661)
Sun, 10th May '09 11:35 AM

You asked for an example: you got one.
What is it that you don't like about being given informative answers to your questions?



caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sun, 10th May '09 11:41 AM

Trust me Achad it is equally painful t be on Andy's side in an issue as one is never quite sure where he stands on anything once he gets beyond the intellectual posturing-he and Barry really should team up but Barry is at least clear on his position although equally impressed with himself- Linda

achad
Achad  (Level: 204.5 - Posts: 661)
Sun, 10th May '09 11:54 AM

Linda,
Nothing painful about it: it's just a tad sad when one's only response in an intellectual discussion is to make childish comments.
By the way Linda, were you referring to US beliefs or those of another state or religion?
Andy.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 10th May '09 12:06 PM

Nothing informative about it.

Better known as a COP OUT.

achad
Achad  (Level: 204.5 - Posts: 661)
Sun, 10th May '09 12:28 PM

Well, that was a mildly interesting little series of interchanges with a typically insular and narrow minded American (not you Linda!). It's good to know that the role of religion in American Revolutionary history is so well known that it is not considered informative.

resolsufoolps
Resolsufoolps  (Level: 20.7 - Posts: 95)
Sun, 10th May '09 12:46 PM

What is this "TOTUS" Linda has referred to twice in this thread so far?

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sun, 10th May '09 1:17 PM

Totus is Obama's teleprompter which he totes with him everywhere. He was NEVER without it during the campaign and they still re inseparable. The only thing it says to me is that he is an excellent reader but certainly nothing he says sounds sincere the way things go when everything one says is read. Other people have used one to make important speeches but he uses it while perfecting the ruse of "off the Cuff' Actors use it and I want to know who TOTUS is- even he knows it has become the subject of jokes-see Barry's post about the press dinner-Linda

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 10th May '09 2:08 PM

Sorry, Andy, but the US was hardly a country at that time.

If you have examples of something from the last 110 years, you ought to put them forward.

Otherwise, go back in the closet and keep copping out.

What a country does during its fight for independence is not a valid reference to its behavior as a mature nation.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 10th May '09 2:20 PM

President of the United States call sign is "POTUS" by the Secret Service
Teleprompter of the United States is now called TOTUS

lynnm
Lynnm  (Level: 226.6 - Posts: 1953)
Sun, 10th May '09 2:51 PM

It is entirely likely that kids who sign an agreement in order to attend a particular high school are told by their parents that they must do so. Often these decisions aren't left to the kids.

I feel that a kid should be able to decide whether to go to a prom without it having a negative effect on the rest of his life! If the school chooses not to sponsor a prom they are well within their rights to make that decision. But if the kid's parents allow him to attend a prom elsewhere, how can the school punish him for that? Schools generally do not have rights extending beyond their jurisdiction. Another school's prom is clearly none of their business. Are they going to follow the kid around to see what he's doing outside of school hours? Force him to confess his "sins"? Kick the parents out of the church unless they keep their boy in line? Personally I would not stand for such a clear violation of my child's rights and would find it difficult to respect parents who would allow a school to treat their child in this fashion. Graduation is an academic achievement - either you made the grades or you didn't.

I haven't even touched upon the so-called Christian aspect of this decision because there are so many different versions of the religion. I have no idea which is the "right" interpretation.

lodi
Lodi  (Level: 98.8 - Posts: 2144)
Sun, 10th May '09 2:54 PM

Good post. I was going to say that I would tell that school to take their rules and shove them right up their...... and then I realized that it was unnecessary because my kids would never attend such a freak show in the first place.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sun, 10th May '09 3:24 PM

Need i add anything ? The principle should obviously be sacked, i will add that.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sun, 10th May '09 4:55 PM

My statements were never about the article itself but the accompanying comment which I saw as hateful as it was far from the first bash on Fundamentalist Christianity. I pay attention to what people post from way back Sorry, missed the irony if that was the intent of the comment. Believe the real attitude towards Fundamentalist Christians came out with the words that Jank quoted. Obviously, I am not a Fundamentalist Christian and the religion I was raised with has rules that seem ridiculous to many.-but believe it is way out of bounds to say things like that about any religion. Justin conducted a survey as is his right as the site owner. Also had no objection to Barnie's thread about why someone doesn't believe in God or some such thing as the topic of the that was clear and one could choose to read or not read Linda

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Sun, 10th May '09 5:07 PM

",,,The principle should obviously be sacked, "

As well as the principal.


The kid and his family enrolled at that private institution with screwed up rules. They signed the paper. Their choice. Look at the Amish or Iran or a million other situations we would call non-tolerant.

Catch 22. Are you being non-tolerant of their lifestyle choices?

I went to Catholic school and if were bad the nuns whacked us with rulers. If we were really bad the priest came over and touched our special place. Too bad. That was what we signed up for.

Personally, I think this is all a PR stunt setup for Footloose 2.



oldcougar
Oldcougar  (Level: 220.4 - Posts: 1935)
Sun, 10th May '09 5:21 PM

The US did try to invade us, think it was more about a land grab than religion though



titansgal
Titansgal  (Level: 17.6 - Posts: 35)
Sun, 10th May '09 5:48 PM

What is wrong with you, Linda? Give it a rest. Drink a beer, smoke a joint, exercise, for goodness sakes. Your silly rantings make my head spin. Then again, you do make me laugh. Happy Mothers Day!

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 10th May '09 6:32 PM

In my experience I've found that when a fundamental Baptist church has a church school, the principal is the boss and what he says goes without saying. The parents would know that before they paid the exhorbitant price to have a child in a private school. The rules would be all laid out. Christian school is about a lot more than grades. It's about learning to respect authority and follow rules. This kid didn't get to 17 years old in this school without knowing all about that.

The principal cannot be fired because he absolutely runs the school.

But all the rules are spelled out from the beginning and to enroll in that school ALL involved know exactly what those rules are - parents and students sign agreements. Just because the article doesn't saying anything about the parents signing an agreement doesn't mean they didn't.

All involved knew what the rules were before they paid their $$.

If they didn't agree with the rules, they shouldn't have joined that school - they didn't have to - they PAID to.

Now, let's also remember. The media pretty much is desperate these days for sales, and covering bake sales doesn't sell papers. We all know the media exploits and selectively reports. Facts and truth reporting are no longer are the lifeblood of the media.

Why did they choose this particular story to cover? In choosing this situation in the first place, their bias may be showing. I don't know.

Also - some church or private schools are not accredited. Sometimes students still have to take a GED to get their degree even when they "graduate" from them. Students who are homeschooled, no matter if both their parents have PhDs, still have to take a GED to get their degree unless there is some way around it that I don't know about.

I just know - this church school makes their own rules and they have the right to enforce them. Others have the right to not enroll.

The fact that you and I don't agree with those rules means - neither you nor I will be enrolling our kid there. And that's really probably as far as it's any of our business. Be forewarned before you enroll your child in a school.

If you think public school is better, that's where your child belongs. But for the record, I've seen schools where dancing isn't allowed, but the kids get a much better education in a safer environment.

fudypatootie
Fudypatootie  (Level: 197.3 - Posts: 1302)
Sun, 10th May '09 7:22 PM

"Schools generally do not have rights extending beyond their jurisdiction. Another school's prom is clearly none of their business. Are they going to follow the kid around to see what he's doing outside of school hours?"

As previously mentioned, the Bong Hits for Jesus case that was decided by the Supreme Court stated that the public school had a right to expel students for behavior exhibited when they were NOT at a school-sponsored event. Ridiculous, but true.

As to a private school, they may not follow the kids around, but any activity outside school hours can be cause for discipline, suspension, or expulsion if that's what it says in the rules of the institution. The school I worked at said the kids could not smoke, drink, or have pre-marital sex.

lynnm
Lynnm  (Level: 226.6 - Posts: 1953)
Sun, 10th May '09 7:38 PM

Still, if it were my child, I would give him the choice. It's HIS life. He knows he's earned his high school degree, in spite of the so-called morality issues this school insists on attaching to it. His transcripts will reflect that he has the required credits and so on.. At some point, you decide what kinds of things will define you as a person. You decide whether the school's rule is arbitrary or worthy. You decide whether it's a matter of "principle" or "principal". You decide whether to do what others tell you to do or what you think is right. You decide what you can live with in yourself.

I say, it's all up to the kid.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 10th May '09 7:48 PM

Those are decisions that need to be made BEFORE you sign the papers and pay the money to go to the private school.

madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.6 - Posts: 893)
Sun, 10th May '09 9:16 PM

I've done 2 responses and lost them because Sploofus timed out. So here goes again. Andy, I did not say it was OK to bash Christians. My first point was that it did not begin or peak during Clinton's administration. Second, there is a group of fundamentalist Christians who gained a lot of influence in the Republican Party, and they have used the party to push their agenda through political means, INCLUDING a position that this nation is a Christian nation and our laws should reflect that. Once they do that, they have crossed over a line. They are not cultural Christians. They are a political force. They've opened the door to being challenged for this position. Whether they're called fundamentalist Christians or right-wing Republicans, it's just semantics. They don't speak for all Christians. Remember, Bill and Hilary Clinton are both Christians.



bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Sun, 10th May '09 11:03 PM

Here we go again religion and politics. It is very dangerous line we walk. If you are a good christian you don't have to boast about it as so many do here. You also don't have to tell everyone your beliefs. God knows your heart, and it is not christian to constantly pick arguments on every thread. It is not good debate or something anyone can learn from to outwit each other in a game no one wins. Really it is very discouraging to read some of these threads.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Sun, 10th May '09 11:13 PM

And really Linda I would be so ashamed of some of your comments. You go on and on and pick fights with anyone who disagrees with you. It is hard to believe you are an intelligent retired teacher. My daughter is a teacher and I can't imagine her raving on and on ad infinitum the way you do. Even when she is retired, you are started to be perceived as a fanatic. You don't even agree with your french friend anymore. Don't get all holy over christianity, you were not offended by snide comment which everyone understood. It was not christian bashing and once again you drew thread into politics when it was about school policy. Once again what does this have to do with POLITICS!

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Mon, 11th May '09 12:51 AM


I think the one core gripe here is the severity of the punishment. It could be that every paent/student assumed it would be a one day detention or something. Now they are withholding a diploma.

So....fine. Stupid on the parents not to understand what the ramifications were for various infractions.

Stupid on the school for being so dogmatic that it will DEFINITELY hurt their enrollment, in this economy, next year.

No sympathy on either of them.

Stupid exposed is good.

Stupid holds back genetically challenged people from societal leadership and, in the best scenarios, procreation.

Thin the herd.

Peace out.

madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.6 - Posts: 893)
Mon, 11th May '09 1:12 AM

The reality is ... that politics and religion have not been kept separate. It is only dangerous if we deny it. There is nothing un-Christian about differing with one another. I don't think anyone here is boasting about their own beliefs. It isn't comfortable, but I'd rather see the discussions here out in the open than behind closed doors.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 11th May '09 3:41 AM

Colleen I hear where you're coming from. I don't agree completely, but the nuances don't merit further discussion here IMO.

madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.6 - Posts: 893)
Mon, 11th May '09 5:15 AM


Andy, I was replying to your statement that Christian-bashing was connected with the Clinton administration -- that was the hook into politics that took me down that road. I didn't say it was OK. I just said it is as it is, and why. I think it is worthy of discussion here, and it can be flipped to point out Jew-bashing (such as that by Christian conservative Ann Coulter who says they are unperfected Christians) and her statements that Liberals are Godless. Neither is OK, but it is there. I don't expect to 'convert' you, but by the same token, don't try to suppress me.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Mon, 11th May '09 5:32 AM

Bobo since you insist on making this personal thing with me-please use your influence and get me put on the "extremist watch list" then perhaps it will be possible for you to get OFF my back. The one thing that would truly embarrass me is that if you were on my side. To repeat- I am conservative in my beliefs and not a Fundamentalist Christian. If you had bothered to actually read what I had said it was that I do not like religious principles being the "face" of Conservatism as did not like the label on my back- The federal government has become the "extremist" by intruding where it doesn't belong TOTUS LOL Linda

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 11th May '09 5:33 AM

I heard it loud and clear in the 90s. Maybe I wasn't paying enough attention before.

And let's not excuse the Clintons. A year ago they ventured into racism - real loud and real clear. It was deliberate and it was disgusting. They'll do anything to win. ANYTHING!

mplaw51
Mplaw51  (Level: 179.5 - Posts: 1582)
Mon, 11th May '09 6:44 AM

Cut to the chase....this kid signed the paper before he met this girl. It seems pretty obvious doesn't it? Now he wants to enjoy more than what he's seen so far since he's been a bit insulated. The school's got rights, so does the student. He'll graduate, no doubt. He just may not take part in the ceremony, he'll learn at a young age what it means to stand up for what you believe in.

The wild hair that this post has taken is interesting. I think if a post began about what a lovely day it is, it would turn into an Obama Bashing. It's like the 7 degrees of Kevin Bacon. How long before an Obama Bash comes around on any post?

I took no offense at what Steve said.
Maureen

avdralle
Avdralle  (Level: 183.6 - Posts: 57)
Mon, 11th May '09 7:09 AM

"No, Christians are not so much into blowing up themselves in the name of their religion. The extreme fundamental Christians, such as the KKK, anti-abortion folks, etal prefer blowing up other people"

Are you saying that "anti-abortion folks" are extreme fundamental Christians and are comparable to the KKK? (Or are you saying that there are extremists in any group? How about "Weather Underground, anti-war folks?")

I am opposed to abortion at any stage. I believe it is killing a person, and so I oppose it as much as I would murdering an adult. I try to put these beliefs into practice, by supporeting pro-life organizations which care for unwed mothers and their babies. (And I never knowingly vote for a pro-abortion candidate.) Does this make me an "extreme fundamental Christian?"
- Tony


madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.6 - Posts: 893)
Mon, 11th May '09 7:09 PM

Excuse the Clintons, Andy? Where did that come from? I merely pointed out that they are Christians, too, but weren't being bashed for their faith. I have no idea what you mean by the racism charge -- if it's about opposing Obama, you could as easily say that 50% of the voters, who supported McCain, are also racist. Which is doubtful. Has the Clinton/racism issue been discussed in this forum in the past? If so, would it be helpful to resurrect that thread and reply to it?

fudypatootie
Fudypatootie  (Level: 197.3 - Posts: 1302)
Mon, 11th May '09 7:25 PM

Maureen, Kevin Bacon is more important than that. It's actually 6 Degrees of Kevin Bacon - a very fun game.

lodi
Lodi  (Level: 98.8 - Posts: 2144)
Mon, 11th May '09 7:31 PM

I love bacon. I also love Kevin Bacon.

Wait. I'm having one of THOSE moments.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 11th May '09 7:53 PM

Well, Colleen, perhaps I misread you but it seemed to me that your explanation defended Christian-bashing because the Religious Right had joined up with the Republican Party (a realignment that does not please me either). That realignment occurred in the 1980s and achieved fruition in the landslide election of 1994.

That's when the Christian-bashing really got going and the White House, the White House of the Christian Clintons you say, certainly didn't act to quell it, did they? No their friends on the Left continued and it's still going full steam.

And I pointed out that these same Clintons were also into racism a year ago. Maybe you missed Hillary's unabashed racist appeals to the WHITE voters in West Virginia and Kentucky. As I recall, she even did such on the Today show.



caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Mon, 11th May '09 8:05 PM

Okay lets get this thread on track. Fire the Pope and Bash Bush-most people comfortable with that here. BTW Kevin Bacon got burned by Madoff who I think is Jewish so perhaps we should bash jJews-Kevin has made some good flicks and they go well with eggs. Now this thread makes perfect sense and think might be PC but not sure-Gesus Linda

mplaw51
Mplaw51  (Level: 179.5 - Posts: 1582)
Mon, 11th May '09 10:31 PM

So funny...I couldn't even get the degrees of Kevin Bacon right!

No matter how many degrees there are, it always swings around.....just an inevitibility about it lately. That's what gets the raspberries from me.
Maureen


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