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bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sun, 31st May '09 10:15 PM

MORE WACKOS

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090601/ap_on_re_us/us_tiller_shooting

This heinous act only gives evidence that the bible stumpers are hypocrites, and murders. What an oxymoron! Save the baby and kill the doctor; a high-quality health care provider. The right wing nuts are surely going to be even more marginalized now. As of today, my opinion, still remains these people are hypocrites nuts. Crazy!


weyoun
Weyoun  (Level: 230.2 - Posts: 36)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 12:15 AM

I think you are overgeneralizing.

osuzannacollage
Osuzannacollage  (Level: 132.1 - Posts: 1299)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 12:22 AM


Although you have a valid point about the particular folks that committed this crime, you're making the egregious error of lumping an entire community of faith into it. If someone reads and believes in the Bible, or the "bible thumpers" as you call them, it certainly doesn't make them murderers or hypocrites. Perhaps you misworded your post. At any rate, you may well wish to clarify your point.

osuzannacollage
Osuzannacollage  (Level: 132.1 - Posts: 1299)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 12:23 AM


Pardon. You said "bible stumpers" there.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 2:30 AM

Here's a response from a pastor who is "sometimes" I think a "right wing" type of person:

"While we are shocked, stunned, and dismayed by this heinous
act and by the hateful words and violent actions perpetuated
upon Dr Tiller in the preceding years leading up to his murder,
we are called not respond in kind with mutual words or actions
of hatred or vengeance.

We pray for justice in this world through the appropriate
punishment of the one or the ones who perpetuated this act, and
comfort and relief for those who deeply grieve for the violent
end to the life of Dr. Tiller.

Neither “pro life” nor “pro-choice” positions are satisfactory or
complete answers to this human dilemma. To say that abortion
is always wrong or that abortion is right in all circumstances is
neither honest nor compassionate. Neither side is respectful of
all of life.

These answers are ultimately not found in politics or rhetoric or
in the making of public policy but within the realm of the Spirit,
working and living together in a milieu of love and respect.
These answers are found as we abandon the old false and
intransigent dichotomies of “either-or”, and as together we
interact in a mutual spirit of humility, open to new paradigms of
thinking and being.

Let us not so closely align ourselves with government or political party that
we cannot hear the voice of God speaking in the still small quiet
of our hearts. Let us always refuse to respond in kind to evil. Let
us love one another as Christ has loved us."

Of course, I suspect you were referring to a minority and not to all Christians who happen to be on the right at times.....but you never know, eh?

barnierubble
Barnierubble  (Level: 93.9 - Posts: 637)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 2:36 AM

When is this going to be blamed on Barrac Obama?

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 3:36 AM

Over the top, Beverly.

No one condones this horrible crime.

NO ONE.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 3:54 AM

Collioure,

You, of all people, with you pompous attitude has the nerve to say Moi "is over the top"? Certainly those people who are attracted to and advocate this type of behavior are hypocrites. Whether they physically participate or not it's the very rationale they have that proselytizes--these type of sick, whacked out, people.
There is no need to clarify any such statement because these people know who they are just like the ones who decry Judge Sonia Satomayor is a racist!!

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 4:45 AM

Okay lets purge religious groups from our country GESUS get a grip , Woman!

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 5:05 AM


Stoutyoungladd
I was only referring to that segment of a demented organization who committed this crime and did so in the past. Moreover, my point is the impact this has on others with an inclination to criticize pro choice. As disgusting as this my be, his martyrdom will allow those who scream, stomp, and roll themselves in the pages of the Bible will now see that murder is a crime against the law; while pro choice is another issue. This doctor is a sacrificial lamb for a non sequitur. If I offended you, those were not my intentions. I only wanted to point out the low-information voters lack of reasoning.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 5:11 AM

Even more over the top, Beverly.

No one condones this horrible crime.

NO ONE.





bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 5:15 AM

Dave
Stop hiding behind your arrogance.

salzypat
Salzypat  (Level: 156.4 - Posts: 5316)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 5:19 AM

Beverly, your use of the words "Bible stumping" in any reference to the murder of this doctor is out of line and offensive to Christians.

The person who did this crime is no more Christian than is the Westboro Church from Topeka whose few members use their hatred of homosexuals as their reason to "rejoice" in the death of every American soldier. I've seen press releases from that church and they are "glad" for every soldier who dies. They not only spew their hatred every chance they get, but they intrude with picketing at every military funeral they can.

To use the word Bible in connection with this murderer or the Westboro "church" people is an offense to true followers of God's word.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 5:42 AM

Dave? No Dave here.

BTW you can dispense with the personal attacks, Beverly. And the distasteful Christian-bashing as well.

They reflect almost as poorly on you as your over the top posts.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 8:29 AM

Pat, do you think its not offensive to hear blatant and subtle comments here on these threads and nearly every day in news media about racism towards a brilliant, African-American President and his administration. In my opinion, those are offensive remarks that are not proper Christianity. I've been more Christian, I think, in my actions than those who swear they are Christian. I was born and raised in the Catholic Church.I attended catholic grammar, high school and a Catholic university. I am an African American and cannot in my adult or childhood life seen so many people call themselves Christians. Yet, practically, everything this last election has elicited is nothing but poisonous, snide over and under tones to practically the pre-civil war days. Personally, I think its healthy and cathartic; as soon we will not have to wrangle with the race factor; as more and more people are inter-dating and inter-marrying.
I know I've gone off tangent a bit. I only wanted to use this as an example of how so many minorities feel when gabbling with being insulted on a constant basis; even christians, myself included, but still carry on. I do not like to think of myself as a victim either. My mom taught school and would except nothing less than perfect from me and my siblings. I've always believed in being upbeat, pragmatic, and positive.
After my Catholic education, I experienced many insults from people with less education or income than me; which is probably why I no longer subscribe to any organized religion. As far as I'm concerned, Christianity for me is a system of oppression for people who are a part of the African Diaspora spiritually, culturally, politically, and economically. Yet, the Black Church is the strongest institution in America as paradoxical as that sounds. I cannot embrace a god that was forced on my ancestors and descendants that is hypocritical in its practices, definitions, and proselytism of-- "do what I say and not what I do". Pro god , pro life, pro marriage, ant- gay, pro abstinence, blame minorities, our current President, although through no fault of his own is of African descent for the swelling budget proposals the government gives away, and pedophiles, etc. I could cite many examples but for space and time I won't. All I'm saying is that its a two way street when we trade insults.

Pat, I have always liked you. In no way do I mean to insult you; rather I wanted to point to the hypocrisy of those types of people and the irrationality of those behaviors. As I've said previously, those people know who they are. Although I don't know you personally, I don't think that characterization in no way describes you.

lodi
Lodi  (Level: 98.7 - Posts: 2144)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 8:35 AM

I know how the old saying goes, but sometimes when you assume, you really don't make an ass ouf me.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 8:40 AM

Andy a.k.a Collioure or should I say ex-expatriate,
You got one very important message that is... you know who you are. The other message only points to your continued repeats of antagonism and arrogance. I said already I wasn't Christian bashing. Why don't you stop Obama bashing?

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 8:50 AM

Where were you when GW Bush a nice old down home by from Texas along with his VP were being called all kinds of names? Believe you have done that too-can't have it both ways. When I was growing up the Office of the Presidency was respected but now political figures as are entertainers are fair game-African American Latina or not. Defend what you believe or whom you believe in with facts not your emotions.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 8:59 AM

Bigmama, in reply to your response to me, I don't particularly "per se" completely identify with the right, or the left or probably the center for that matter. You didn't offend me, just wanted to make sure you didn't mean everybody on that side, and apparently you didn't. I'm not one to chastise endlessly over a comment that obviously needed some clarification and context to be understood, so thanx for clarifying. I now have a better understanding of what you mean.

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 9:30 AM

1. Andy, it is simply untrue that nobody condones the murder of Tiller. There is a segment within the anti-abortion movement that is violent and claims murder of physicians providing abortion services is justifiable homicide. Tiller, himself, had been the object of previous violence. It doesn't take much to do a little research into the anti-abortion movement to find evidence of its violent faction which believes it is perfectly okay to kill those providing abortions. I'm surprised that you would make the claim that "no one" condones the murder. In fact, I think its obvious that some people who denounce the murder are saying that for public consumption given the entirety of the statements issued on the topic.

2. Linda, calling Bush "names" is one thing, encouraging violence is another. Rightwing media actually encourages violence against Obama and "liberals" in general, in a way in which the domestic Left -- as pathetically small as it is -- never did toward the right during the Bush presidency. The right loses the presidential election, and the next thing you know mainstream politicians in states like Texas and Georgia are flirting with secession. Never heard any calls for secession from the left because of Bush's policies, although I admit that had it been a practical option for me, I would have left the U.S. for Europe during the Bush Reign of Terror.

3. I'm not a religious person, and frankly true believers of any religion are frightening to me. Those who think you will have everlasting life in the great beyond have little if any reason to attempt to minimize death because the lord is going to sort it all out anyway. Religious fanatics think they are doing their religious duty by murdering the right sort of people who in their theology deserve to be murdered. I prefer policy to be based on rational thought -- as opposed to faith. The right wing media is now subtly and not so subtly condoning violence on the left -- indeed, on folk who I wouldn't even consider particularly left -- such as Obama. I include in this category such folk as Michael Savage, Glenn Beck, and Rush.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 9:42 AM

Not going to argue with you TSK as you will beat me with words-said before I like it when we agree. Wasn't there an attempted assassination of Reagan? Maybe his detractors liked it but not sure any of them encouraged it.-just like very unsure about the single shooter in the Kennedy thing. There are extremist groups among them those who act in the name of their God but calling people"Bible Thumpers" is inappropriate seems to me. even though I don't consider myself among the religious Personally, I find ACORN and the NEW Black Panthers extremist groups and the mass thinking of any segment frightening Linda

ladyvol
Ladyvol  (Level: 205.3 - Posts: 5487)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 9:52 AM

NEVER argue politics and religion...and I am Pro Life, a Christian and a woman to boot...So, please don't been putting all Christians in the same category as the "so called" one who murdered this doctor. I AM NOT A MURDERER NOR I DO CONDONE MURDER....
Vickie

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 10:03 AM

Vicki I didn't make a blanket statement. I clearly said those people know who they are.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 10:04 AM

Obviously the doctor was a better Christian than his murderer.



caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 10:10 AM

Would you consider Fundamentalist Muslims scary people as well, TSk? They certainly are willing to die for their beliefs as they consider their life in the "next' world will be sublime. Then there were the Japanese airmen who crashed their planes deliberately into battleship for the nobelity of dying for Japan. Group think whether religious, ethnic, political or racial is a scary thing. Not quite clear where belief and pride cross over into power and fanaticism

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 10:22 AM

Linda: I absolutely consider fanatical Muslims scary folk. I consider all people who think that there is a better life beyond this mortal veil to be scary -- at least to the extent that they are sure that they know how "their" God wants them to behave. If they are true believers, they are sure they will get their reward in the next world, and have little reason to be concerned about dying in this one. I would be interested in any empirical research on this one -- I'm not aware of any -- but I would hypothesize that non-religious people in general are less supportive of war, capital punishment, and other types of violence becuase they either don't believe you get more than one life or, at least, are very skeptical about an afterlife so that death is a much bigger deal to them because its final.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 10:40 AM


Stoutyoungladd
Thank you so much for understanding; The tragedy deserves attention and not just to be swept under the rug. I thought when I said you "know who you are" that would allow those who do not ascribe this type of heinous, illogical, behavior would understand its impact. This is not the first time this has happened and I just wanted to claim the impact this culture war has on us.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 10:48 AM

Not sure of that one, TSK, just know that the older I get the closer it gets. and much of my thoughts are about if i have made a positive difference. Having been married to a police officer for a very long period, believe in justice given to victims and not all of this criminal rights thing. Know I wouldn't want to watch an execution but resent the fact that some prison folks live better than the relatives of the victims they left behind. and tremendous amounts of money are spent to keep them in comfort-haven't a clue what the answer might be. I am from a generation that believed if the leaders said a cause was noble enough to go to war for it was the correct thing to do. Realizing rather late in life how big a part politics plays. Do know that the will to survive and for the survival of my offspring is strong yet in me and don't believe kind" words will make that happen whoever or whatever conditions made those people want to wipe us out. Linda

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 11:07 AM

Linda, my friend, you need to get busy again in your research. What have Acorn and the New Black Panthers done to terrorize people and when did they murder anyone? A demonstration is a tool of of the First Amendment. A murder is a crime. Those Acorn people and the New Black Panthers help people more than the nuts? Are you a Sean Hannite, Rush Limbaugh ditto head, inept Glenn Beck trek? The "Bible Thumpers" know who they. Now, those who have been offended have been reassured by me, I hope, will realize those type of domestic terrorist groups should roll themselves in the pages in the bible and remain there in antiquity; if they are not going to practice true Christianity.
If you must fear any group, fear the ones who are setting the tone for attacks on our President like the newspaper in PA, suggesting assassination, succession, right wing talk shows hosts who espouse fear and divisiveness. Oh yea, don't forget you really should be afraid because those guys know diddly about the 1st and 2nd amendments.




tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 11:22 AM

Linda:

1. As I said, mine is a hypothesis re religious fanatics v non-religious people and fear of death in this world.

2. If I'm reading your last post correctly, it seems to be more directly related to opposition to capital punishment. Although I am not religious, I do admire the Catholic Church's consistent anti-capital punishment stance, and I also respect the Jesuit tradition within the church, which seems to strongly seek social justice.

3. I don't know of any convicted murderers who are living comfortable lives in prisons because prisons are not pleasant places. While I would not dispute that a few victims (not the dead ones) or victims' family members may be worse off than some incarcerated murderers, this would definitely be a rare exception and not the norm. As to rights for the criminally accused, I make no apologies for supporting even more such rights, as they have been consistently whittled away since the heydey of the Warren Court. If you don't have money, rights of the criminally accused are more honored in the breach. People are convicted of crimes all the time that they did not commit and this doesn't happen because they have too many rights.

4. In recorded history, war has consistently been used as a tool by governing elites to satisfy personal objectives. It is one of the ways in which the birth of nationalism brought on evil because people are all too willing to follow leaders who induce feelings of nationalist fervor. They simply swallow the lies about the defense and security of the state. Governments are a necessary evil, but somehow, governments regularly con average citizens into supporting war that serves only the interests of those running the governments and their rich friends. Even on Sploofus, I've noticed that the most rightwing of the posters are also the quickest to support anything that smacks of "patriotism". The same people who denounce government the most are the ones most likely to support aggression in the name of the state against other people.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 11:25 AM

Beverly, it just amazes me that you do NOT realize or at least admit that Obama is a politician and does what he does because it benefits him politically. The process by which we elect our officials makes them corrupt. I know you believe in the guy in jack boots standing outside a polling place intimidating voters is fine because the end justifies the means. I do not. I also believe it is long past time Affirmative Action or Positive Discrimination was put to rest. How much more equal results do you want? Please justify the positive changes you see by citing facts not just painting folks who don't see things as you do , one collective negative mind-Linda

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 11:32 AM

Linda, please tell me where men in jackboots stood outside polls and intimidated people into voting for Obama? That's a stategery I only remember seeing in 2000.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 12:01 PM

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/elections/2009/05/29/charges-black-panthers-dropped-obama/ the video which shows them is available on utube as well as Fox

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 12:08 PM

After watching the utube video you might find other realted ones of interest but probably not-you don't want to see or hear that

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 12:14 PM

Linda, Puleezee,Of course I know he's a politician and I also know he is the President of the United States, one of the most powerful jobs on earth. In addition to that Since I'm a Chicagoan I know more about the community organizer who rose out of obscurity to become the president. He wasn't chosen he was elected. Why? He ran an excellent campaign. He dismissed racial slurs, and character assassinations. While I'm mentioning the word assassination; I just heard an unidentified object was thrown over the walls at the House. The news report said a robot has been sent out. We'll chat about that later.

My point is being a politician does have merit as you say. But why would this man put his life on the line if he didn't care about US? How many politicians have made that quest and later chickened our because they had no courage and cared about only power. He was obscure man; whom my younger brother happened to work for during his community organizing days. I know where his heart is. Also, my girlfriend was his wife's secretary. You don't know anything about this skinny little humble man. It can only benefit US, if we have these healthy debates because we do need to realize the benefit comes from the will of the people. Apparently you'll overlooking the fact that the benefit of the power with any politician is the same as his base. Obama won the election! Obama is not as liberal as you think he is.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 12:20 PM

Oh, Fox.

Three of the North Philadelphia Shabazz clan acting out on election day, an action condemned by the so-called New Black Panther Party, which is itself disavowed by the original Black Panthers; reprehensible behavior by extremists, but hardly a comprehensive plot to steal the election, or anything 99.999999999% of us need worry about at our polling places.

Something less than what we saw here in Jacksonville in 2000, where the jackboots came with guns and badges. That's what I think of when I hear a sentence including "jackbooted" and "polling places."

You don't think ACORN and Obama were behind it, do you?

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 12:23 PM

Sorry, Beverly. That last post had absolutely nothing to do with your topic of extremist terroristic anti-abortion murderers.

I hope the doctor and his wife were among one of the sects that believe that because he was murdered in the act of worship he goes straight to heaven, and I hope he never knew what hit him.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 12:36 PM

Smoke
It was a response to Linda calling the president a mere politician.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 12:42 PM

Smoke, I think the Lying Cheating Bush Klan was behind it.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 12:43 PM

Beverly, he got elected because he had a huge political Chicago go based machine behind him. He is a user as are most politicians are starting with the Rev. Wright-discarding him when it became politically not wise. Many folks did not vote like myself or voted AGAINST Bush and now we are stuck with a NIGHTMARE.

Smoke there is no reply to you as even a video does not work. The fact that Fox filmed it does not dispute the fact that the New Black Panthers were intimidating voters with night stick in hand. It is also a fact that even after 2 were found guilty, Holder dismissed the charges-sure smells like fish or is that quacks like a duck dunno.. gesus

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 12:46 PM

I meant my last post. I was talking about something far removed from your subject and I wasn't meaning to hijack your thread, but Linda's right, it is pretty hard to stay on topic here.

When I heard the story I honestly didn't think of the guy's religion. I guess I supposed a truly religious person wouldn't profane a church service. I figured he'd connect up to Randall Terry's bunch and some of those are pretty far out there, but who knows what they believe or if they're all the same?

The killer was obsessed. That's dangerous enough even without religion. Apparently it was more than he could bear that the doctor was cleared of all charges in 45 minutes of deliberation after a 4-year court case a few days before the murder.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 1:06 PM

Smoke, I'm guilty too. I didn't view the link Linda sent. I assumed she was talking about the 2000 Gore v Bush election. Now that I saw that link I think it's deplorable. But as you know we have all kinds of screws loose in the world. As my Mom used to say "just don't black out". I think that's clearly what happened there. Let me know if you here anything about the unidentified object thrown over the walls at White House. I'll bet it was a a copycat.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 1:09 PM

One guy with a nightstick. Brandishing. Not a gang of them beating people up. I don't know why the charges were dismissed, but I'll look in more places than Fox News to find out. Maybe find out what the people who made an apparently stupid decision have to say about why they did it. New Black Panthers are a hate group, and the man with the baton is extremely controversial.

I totally agree that it's a disgusting incident, but I thought your post implied that it was a part of Obama's campaign.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 1:11 PM

I was referring to Linda's post with the link.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 1:18 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmsWm3qi8JY this is justy one-workers in some states have plead guilty to the charges. Fox is investigating a much lkarger fraud which leads to an old funeral home in New Orleans-won't bother to post anyone on Fox as a source but other media cannot ignore this indefinitely or can they??

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 1:19 PM

Well, I'm almost positive Hannity will include it his Liberal translation. I'll watch the edited version from Fox news. I won't know anything, but I'll be informed which won' t me to decide since this propaganda is anti- liberal. There must be some other underlying reason. No one is is supposed to electioneer within a certain nuber of feet from the voting place.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 1:25 PM

Beverly, I don't Obama-bash. I do think he's off to a poor and very partisan start (Guantanamo has become his don't ask-don't tell). I think he's lost in ideology and not facing up to the gargantuan economic problem we have. That's what the American people expect him to solve and why he was chosen over McCain. First review in 17 months.

Nor have I called Sotomayor a racist even though her statement is clearly racist.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 1:27 PM

If you watchg the related videioo on Utube folks carrying signs saying vote Obama were INSIDE the polling place HELPING voters . Don't like hannity much since he ditched the nice but cluelees guy Colmes as he made him look good. now souning pretty much like a hatemonger like many doi here when they speak of Bush/ Cheney -duunno

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 1:38 PM

Colmes was a punching bag. I wanted to punch him myself. I stopped watching when it became obvious his job was to roll over on everything and he was never going to put up a fight. Like after about 10 minutes.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 1:42 PM

Nice guy though...

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 1:49 PM

Colmes was the better intellect but too soft in support for his views.

Hannity is one of those words that begins with A and ends with E

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 2:09 PM

That stupid Hannity the host that needs to validated on a nightly basis. I watch him first of all, because I want to know what's being whispered in his ear and what's on his teleprompter. I have to admit he does anger me. Primarily, because he is so inept and stupid. He also makes me crack up when he trys to be a Colbert or John Steward. Now as the stupid Hannity the host that needs to validated says..."Tell me if I'm right!"

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 2:20 PM

BTW, Beverly, not one thing HUMBLE about that man. One of the most hubris individuals I have ever witnessed-excellent reader though

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 2:33 PM

I would imagine that most people who read this will be well aware that i am an atheist. Having said that, i don't blame christians for killing this doctor, but i do believe the anachronistic trash that too many of them spew out is a contributary factor. It's simple really, terminations are here to stay, one way or another. If you don't want one that is great, but keep your nose out of other people's business. It's up to a woman what she has in her stomach, not some supernatural imaginary friend. Your beliefs are just that, your beliefs. Do not try and push your morals down the throats of people who see things differently.

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 3:27 PM

"No One" condones Tiller's murder, eh? From today's NYT:

Scott Roeder, 51, of Merriam, Kan., whom authorities have described as a suspect in Sunday’s fatal shooting here of George Tiller, was once a subscriber and occasional contributor to a newsletter, Prayer and Action News, said Dave Leach, an anti-abortion activist from Des Moines who runs the newsletter. Mr. Leach said that he had met Mr. Roeder once, and that Mr. Roeder had described similar views to his own on abortion.

Commenting on Dr. Tiller’s death, Mr. Leach said, “To call this a crime is too simplistic.” He added, “There is Christian scripture that would support this."

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 3:31 PM

You mean the invisible man in the sky where trillions will go after this life..LOL. Wait he may on the side of the earth. No it's another universe. My point is these people are dangerous, and have no business of their own. Those people who don't want you too smoke too need some business of their own. It's still my body and I can put whatever I want in it. I try too respect everyone's belief, but when it get's beyond rational I have to speak out.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 3:42 PM

haven't a clue what your point was, Beverly.... It bothers me equally that this "humble" man controls many banks a 2 auto companies, Gibbs in essence said today that he won't get involved in the day to day running of the companies but implication was there if he does not like the decisions the company leaders make-he will replace them And oh all of these czars he has put in place to oversee so many things including the internet were APPOINTED by him and accountable to him only. The lawmakers that are supposed to represent the people but don't had no say in their appointment nor no say in what they do. If that doesn't scare a whole bunch of folks -it should Gesus...

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 3:43 PM

forgot he controls some big insurance companies too

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 3:48 PM

That is a person, TSK?

mrbojangles
Mrbojangles  (Level: 16.6 - Posts: 231)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 3:53 PM

Andy, I love it when you talk dirty!

ravensclaw
Ravensclaw  (Level: 43.0 - Posts: 158)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 4:57 PM

I Think... some come here as their neighbors quit talking to them, long ago!

lodi
Lodi  (Level: 98.7 - Posts: 2144)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 5:34 PM

That has to be the best and truest thing I've heard all day. I'm going to march right to your profile and give you a high five.

lodi
Lodi  (Level: 98.7 - Posts: 2144)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 5:35 PM

It will have to be a theoretical high five. You get the picture.

fudypatootie
Fudypatootie  (Level: 197.2 - Posts: 1302)
Mon, 1st Jun '09 5:57 PM

It seems from what I've heard that this guy who killed Tiller is not associated formally with any group and acted alone. That doesn't mean there aren't people applauding the action, though I can say that I (a Bible-believing Christian) do not condone this action. While there are many who use religion as a weapon, there are many Christians who believe in the sanctity of all life, even someone as reprehensible as Tiller.

As to the GM deal, where in the Constitution does it say the president has the authority to do this? Just curious.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 1:27 AM

TSK, you said: "Rightwing media actually encourages violence against Obama and "liberals" in general, in a way in which the domestic Left -- as pathetically small as it is -- never did toward the right during the Bush presidency."

I would like to see proof of rightwing media encouraging violence against Obama and liberals. I listen all the time and I've NEVER heard them encourage anything of the sort. In fact, I've heard just the opposite.

And - how quickly you forget left wing media talking about assassinating Bush - in fact, they made a movie of it!

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 1:53 AM

Beverly, you know exactly how extremely offensive and hurtful your very purposeful verbage is to Christians here and everywhere you say such things.

If you were to be right and there is no God, then I can see how you can not care if a pre-born baby is killed, which this abortion doctor is responsible for the death of approximately 16,000 deaths of babies in late term. If there is no God, I can see that those babies are nothing more to you than a lump of flesh.

But if so, how is the abortion doctor more than a lump of flesh too?

And for the life of me, I can see you believing a woman has every right with her body. But I cannot understand why you wrap your support for abortion in such flaming, bitter hatred toward anyone who does not believe in abortion.

I hate abortion. But I have never hated anyone who got an abortion, and I know a few. And I have never prevented even one person from getting the abortion they wanted. I've prayed for them. But I've never prevented it. And that is the position of the vast number of Christians and Jews and non-believers who are against abortion.

I am a Bible stumper, thumper, God lover, believer, who tries to help the downtrodden and teach responsibility and self-reliance to those who have great abilities.

You talk as though many people killed the doctor. No - one man did.

There are crazy murderers in all walks of life, and we've talked about that subject before. The murderer here is also a horrible, crazy person, and most real Christian God lovers absolutely condemn murder of ALL kinds, including the doctor's murder.

The truth is, those who are anti-abortion/pro-life not only do not condone the murder of an abortionist (or anyone else), they feel great compassion for the doctor also because this murderer stole God's very gift to the doctor - his life. God loves all without condition, without respect one over another. And God did not want the doctor's murder. I don't believe God wanted the doctor to do late term abortions, but I KNOW God did not want the doctor killed by anyone.

And Christians are commanded by God to love others above ourselves and put them above ourselves.

Beverly, if there is no God, my love of God really doesn't affect you, nor does the love for God of most Christians. I cannot even imagine what has happened in your life that makes you mock God and be so bitterly hate filled against Christians. I hurt for fellow Christians who feel the pointed end of your arrow of hate. We're use to it, but it still hurts.

But I hurt for you more, and I pray for you and I will work to put you above me in my spirit and in my thoughts and in my prayers.

One man killed one man. We Christians out here did not kill him. We do not defend the murderer in any way, on any level.

TSK - no matter what crazy, horrible thing is said or happens, there will always some crazy, horrible person who will condone it. Just because you can find one example, 10 examples, whatever, of fools who would condone this murderer's actions, it has nothing to do with Christianity and from every post I've ever read on this site, you will not find even ONE person here who condones this murder.

And Cloggs, there are geniuses out there who actually believe in God, rather than mocking "our invisible friend." Far smarter people than I have studied and are convinced there is a God.

The mocking for the God who created the universe and who loves us and who is far above anything we can imagine hurts those of us who love Him and appreciate Him and who have been saved from horrible things by Him. You are mocking our loving Dad who has given us every breath of oxygen we've ever had, every heartbeat. And He's done the same for you.

We're used to it, and for sure the creator God can handle mocking and always has. But all He has is love for you and for us.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 2:37 AM

Jank, Scott Roeder didn't exist in a vacuum. He was deeply involved for many years in radical organizations that approve and condone and celebrate these acts. And he didn't have to look far in the right-wing media for motivation and approval of what he did. No one is trying to say all Christians are like this man, but so many of those who are like him or approve of him are also loudly, aggressively Christian and cite it as their primary motivation. I've seen them at clinics and I saw them picketing the nursing home when Terry Schiavo lay dying. They're terrifying, fanatical people. They are the breeding ground for the right-wing domestic terrorists Homeland Security was ridiculed for warning us about.



collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 4:03 AM

Yes, Donna, there is a small, fanatic and violent element within the anti-choicers.

However, the Napolitano fiasco (regarding Tim McVeigh types) was borne of thin air.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 5:28 AM

Andy
Probably, you getting a heart after yesterday's tragedy.

kaufman
Kaufman  (Level: 256.8 - Posts: 3936)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 5:52 AM

As far as I'm concerned, those who commit acts of terror in the name of religion are the worst blasphemers of all. And that goes for any faith, all faiths.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 5:57 AM

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A07EFDD163DF930A15751C0A9639C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted= seems to the some who think all the religious "Whackos" aren't Christians Linda And then their are the plain old "whackos" supported by a whole bunch of folks who "Group Think".

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 6:07 AM

I'm not French, Beverly, but the whole country is in mourning today.

BTW I have

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 6:08 AM

Of, course some disagree that guy had one bad thought in his head. Sure the 9/11 folks didn't either. EVERY president for a VERY long time at least going back too the death of Kennedy has had to be under heavy security-lots of whackos out there with multiple causes they attach themselves to when it is convenient for them to do that.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 6:09 AM

I'm not French, Beverly, but the whole country is in mourning since yesterday. I'll see what the mood is today on our walk. It's going to a while before they get to the bottom of this one.

BTW it might surprise you that I do have a heart, just not a bleeding heart. And I do volunteer work and will do more of it here.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 6:47 AM

Smoke please name the SPECIFIC rightt wing MEDIA person that condones this . Most of them think this Tiller guy was a reprehensible human being one of 2 docs in the us performing late term abortions to the tune of billions but have not heard ONE condone murder. Linda

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 7:42 AM


sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 8:06 AM

God, as much as I loathe O'Reilly., I didn't hear him "actually" condone the murder. Despicable person that he is, he of course eggs this on. Tricky legal business, tricky free speech amendment.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 8:08 AM

That's disturbing.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 8:19 AM

O'Reilly is A Catholic and thinks this Tiller is a piece of sh-- but he never has urged anyone to kill him-defy you to find his exact words -do not use a blogger who thinks they know what he is thinking. This guy had done similar things before had previous charges-probably had an attorney who got him released on a technicality.. On the other hand here is a whacko who is not a Christian and is not only encouraged to kill by that religion but a whole segment of the globe http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/02/us/02recruit.html source should be liberal enough for you if they aren't bankrupt yet

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 8:20 AM

No. He didn't SAY go kill the guy, it was more like "will nobody rid us of this baby murderer?" to paraphrase Murder in the Cathedral. Ironic, huh? He may not have said it in so many words but made it very easy for a certain kind of zealot to see it in what he did say.

He demonized the man for doing his legal job to the point where he made him sound worth killing. Those guys have real influence, the people who watch them accept and act on their words as truth every single day. They motivate people, and they should have more responsibility for what they say. O'Reilly said over and over in a dozen ways that Tiller was a mass murderer, slaughtering little innocent babies in the thousands "minutes before birth", made it sound like Tiller deserved to die, and he did. I cannot absolve the hate media from their part in this one.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 8:22 AM

Linda, can't believe you're defending that piece of crap in ANY way.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 8:24 AM

I have to say that's the first time I've ever heard praying groups called "violence."

And if I'm not mistaken, we all admire those who picketed and walked with MLK.

Picketing abortion clinics is not violence. They're usually just standing around, praying. Almost every day. The media only reports it when there's a looney in the group who shouts or something.

Many of us Christians honestly do see abortion as the second holocaust. 40,000,000 deaths of babies since Roe V Wade.

And late term abortion is the most abhorent act on earth that I know of. Go look at what it entails and then condemn anyone who prays against it.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 8:34 AM

Obviously not all Christians are wackos, or vice versa, Linda. They're just the one's who seem to commit most of the politically (to them, morally, I suppose) based murders in the US for some reason (see above). A muslim fanatic killed a soldier yesterday in Arkansas. Fanatics of any persuasion are dangerous as hell.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 8:36 AM

Not overly fond of O'Reilly as often find him pompous. He is, however, a powerful man who has gotten the La. governor to work with the Attorney General of La. to force ACORN to open their books something we as the public have a right to see.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 8:44 AM

And many of us DON'T see it that way, Jank. You can't throw the same blanket over every abortion. I've heard and read several interviews of women who wanted their babies, who had to have late terminations because of a health issue for the mother or a severe deformity in the child. Late term abortions are not cases of normal healthy pregnancies ended on a whim as O'Reilly suggests, there are medical reasons for them.

O'Reilly grotesquely mischaracterized the doctor and his work, he perpetrated a false view of him. Dr Tiller bravely persisted in his work when his life was a nightmare for decades because of these groups, because he sincerely believed he was helping women and providing a necessary service. He didn't deserve to be branded "Tiller the Killer" and systematically demonized by a pupportedly mainstream news source.

The fact remains, regardless of your religious views Dr Tiller was performing his job in a legal manner according to the law of the state of Kansas. You don't like the law? Change the law, don't kill the doctors.


sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 8:46 AM

Jan, here in Bloomingon, the only groups outside Planned Parenthood that I've seen, we're far from any kind of praying I've seen. But maybe I don't associate praying with the same things they do, I guess.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 8:52 AM

Glad to see yo say it was a paraphrase

maurlin
Maurlin  (Level: 213.3 - Posts: 2671)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 8:53 AM

WAY MORE THAN YOU WANTED TO KNOW about supporting or condoning the killing.

"Wasn't there an attempted assassination of Reagan? Maybe his detractors liked it but not sure any of them encouraged it". Done by John Hinckley as the culmination of an effort to impress actress Jodie Foster- not part of any belief group or sect. Found Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity.

"-just like very unsure about the single shooter in the Kennedy thing". Most likely shot by Lee Harvey Oswald, a former United States Marine who defected to the Soviet Union and later returned to the US. Many conspiracy theories, but none pointing to religeous beliefs.

However, in the U.S., violence directed toward abortion providers has killed at least 9 people, including 5 doctors, 2 clinic employees, a security guard, and a clinic escort.

Acts of violence against abortion clinics and their employees have been carried out across the United States throughout the 1980s and 1990s.
There were 1,700 acts of violence against abortion providers between 1977 and 1994, with four people killed in 1994. In 1984, there were 18 bombings against abortion clinics. In 1993, there were 78 death threats aimed at clinic employees. And, in 1996, bombings, threats and harassment affected about one-third of U.S. abortion clinics.

All mainstream pro-life organizations reject violence as a form of opposition to abortion Fringe advocates of force against abortion providers are small groups or lone individuals.[

Certain organizations in the United States which oppose abortion either explicitly or implicitly advocate violence against abortion providers in contrast with the majority of the pro-life movement. Two such organizations are the Army of God, an underground network of activists who believe that the use of violence is an appropriate tool for fighting against abortion, and the American Coalition of Life Activists, who published the Nuremberg Files.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 8:58 AM

Thanks Marlin. Sobering.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 8:59 AM

Purportedly, dammit.

I've crossed a couple of those picket lines, they're extremely intimidating, not what I'd call praying at all. Shrieking at us that we're going to hell, murdering our babies, screaming and begging and crying, pushing and shoving, spittle flying, eyes popping. I never saw anyone pray like that. And you might be going in for a pap smear for all they know, but if they know abortions are performed at the facility, every woman who goes in gets the same treatment.

I don't call it violence, quite, but I thought Olberman was referring to the long list of shootings and clinic bombings.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 9:18 AM

And they're winning. Due to the threat of violence and the skyrocketing insurance and security costs, in something like 93% of counties in the US, abortion facilities are unavailable, and now we're down to two doctors who perform the procedure Dr Tiller provided. Soon they won't have to outlaw it, it just won't be available, or it will be so expensive it will be back to the alleys and the coathangers for women and girls with no other CHOICE.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 9:20 AM

As usual liberals will not comment on the Muslim guy who tried to shoot the military recruiters in Arkansas-but then they haven't killed many people in contrast to the anti-abortion folks with bombing the clinics and their cause is "JUST" Frankly I am surprised the NY Times even mentioned it and said mention is fast becoming not PC especially if you see the picture of the man- Linda

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 9:25 AM

PUH-LEEEEEZE!!!

The Muslim guy is bad, okay? I was just having a different conversation right now.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 9:25 AM

Yes, I see his picture. What's your point?

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 9:42 AM

Lemme see if I can liberal it up for you:

Yes, Linda, it's true, wackjobs and murderers are part of the human rainbow, they come in all colors, left and right, from all religions, just like regular people and presidents.

This thread is not about race.

garrybl
Garrybl  (Level: 279.5 - Posts: 6641)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 9:47 AM

The defense to murdering a doctor according to Caramel in her last note.....

'Well you didnt criticize X so.....its OK to kill the doctor and we shouldn't criticize the killer or O'Reilly?'

I'm sure that's not what you meant. But it looks like that's what you said.

Billl O'Reilly's comments that Tiller was going to hell are so close to asking someone to send him there (the quotes were shown verbatim on Olbermann last night) are truly frightening. We know that he has no decency or power to examine his own behavior-- but even a man as self-obsessed as he might see some link here.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 10:01 AM

Linda, you know I like you. BUT WTF DOES THE MUSLIM ASH*OLE HAVE TO DO WITH THIS THREAD.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 10:02 AM

This has to do with the Christian assh*ole, okay?

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 10:09 AM

Sorry Barry I don't see it that way-believe pretty close to what Smoke said to defend her view. Actually Kaufman (Ken) was the most impartial. Nope this is not about race but it is about grouping people who do not agree with your pro choice and find it more than distasteful- have no particular view as was not an issue in my day-as condoning murder. Beverly was the first to introduce race when she bashed the "Bible Thumpers" while saying the "Black Church" was the foundation of America or something close to that-

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 10:11 AM

I have not read this whole thread, so if this has already been addressed, I apologized. This was said earlier in the thread...

"Linda, calling Bush "names" is one thing, encouraging violence is another. Rightwing media actually encourages violence against Obama and "liberals" in general, in a way in which the domestic Left -- as pathetically small as it is -- never did toward the right during the Bush presidency. The right loses the presidential election, and the next thing you know mainstream politicians in states like Texas and Georgia are flirting with secession. Never heard any calls for secession from the left because of Bush's policies, although I admit that had it been a practical option for me, I would have left the U.S. for Europe during the Bush Reign of Terror. "

Could you please give a legitimate example of rightwing media encouraging violence against Obama? And could you also give me a legitimate source for states who are "flirting with secession"?


felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 10:12 AM

I am offended by the phrase Muslim A$$hole. But all redundant statements make me angry.

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 10:17 AM

hehe

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 10:18 AM

If Beverly said anything about black churches I missed it. I was focused on the topic of right-wing hate group members murdering people on the job, at home, and in their houses of worship, and whether or not it was a broadly Christian movement, and whether or not the hate media stirs it up.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 10:20 AM

A@@sholes are just that Felix, Muslim, Jew, Christian, or Atheist. (Except perfect people like like me whose views are

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 10:23 AM

You are almost perfect Sandy. You ARE my second favorite Sandy regardless.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 10:24 AM

Beverly said that black churches were the strongest institutions in the country. I don't know about that, but I know they're pretty damn powerful. I wish they were more liberal though.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 10:29 AM

Felix ROCKS!!


fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 10:32 AM

Smoke said "I've heard and read several interviews of women who wanted their babies, who had to have late terminations because of a health issue for the mother or a severe deformity in the child."

HAD to have late terminations? No, not true. CHOSE to. It's pro-CHOICE, right? No, they didn't have to. And why would a severe deformity be a reason to kill a baby? You should come to the special ed. department at my school, look at these kids, and tell me that they should never have been born.

And you know what, the health of the mother argument is often misleading and exagerrated. In this line of thinking, our last child should have been aborted because it wound up being very risky for my wife when it was time for the baby to come. In fact, my wife could have easily died that day. But she didn't, the doctors did a great job, and both her and our 13-month old baby are fine. But if we had ONLY been concerned about my wife, then the baby would have been dead. Who knows how many babies have died because the doctors THOUGHT the woman would die if she had the baby.

garrybl
Garrybl  (Level: 279.5 - Posts: 6641)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 10:33 AM

Apologies if this has been posted already.

And apologies if you find Olbermann strident (he is even if you agree with him).

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=oreilly+tiller+olbermann&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#

I defy anyone to listen to the quotes and not pause to think even for a second about the environment created by those quotes. Did it help foster a situation where it was more rather than less likely that someone would kill Dr Tiller. You be the judge.

Even if you disagree strongly with late-term abortion, this man was not a criminal according to the laws of the US.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 10:34 AM

Obviously you lost your focus when the Muslim radicals killed thousands doing their job as were the 2 military recruiters - seems you focus on what you agree with and ignore what you don't dunno...

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 10:40 AM

Should have said thousands in the towers simply doing their jobs-but perhaps sloome jobs or people are less important than this fine doctor Heh? Ken also ROCKS for giving an impartial view-Linda

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 10:45 AM

I see it, Sandra, and I didn't quite miss it, skimming her personal religious history I read it in terms of the hypocrisy of religion in general on these issues. She wasn't raising the issue of race as such, just mentioning several kinds of churches in making her point, from my reading.

At the point where Linda interjected with the Muslim killer (possibly a New Black Panther?) nobody was talking about race and I have no interest in doing so now.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 10:48 AM

Don't mean to be gross, but wouldn't want to go to the special ed where the babies with little or no brains are. Don't think there are enough caregivers in the world for that. That is where most of the late term abortions are from.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 10:57 AM

Fainodraino, there are many reasons to terminate malformed fetuses. Look up anencephalic in wiki, and you'll see an example of what most late term abortions are. Some won't live long past birth in any case, or if the bodies live there will be so little brain function that the baby represents a massive burden on an existing family and on society. There are as many reasons as there are people and things that can go wrong in a human body, and every case is complicated and unique.

I don't presume to judge for everyone what's right or wrong for them to do in their lives, and I don't think you should either. I'm very happy that you had the CHOICE and things turned out well for your family, I would never want to make that choice.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 11:00 AM

Perhaps someone should start a new thread then without the racial validation of our current president who the best that I can determine is funding dreams. Or perhaps it could be a thread bashing Christians but not any who attend a Black Church. Or as the last one perhaps a thread about pro-choice vs pro-life think that has been done a few times. Glad it was never a choice I had to make nor was it a legal option in my day so any thread to that specific issue will leave to the rest of you to resolve-I'm looking into ACORN and the NEW Blank Panthers

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 11:02 AM

Great idea. I think you should start threads about them.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 11:06 AM

Sigh... Groundhog Day.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 11:09 AM

I think you can count on that at some point

maurlin
Maurlin  (Level: 213.3 - Posts: 2671)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 11:25 AM

As sure as the sun rises.

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 11:37 AM

Maurlin, thank you for taking the time to respond to my request.

Your first link was about right-wing media violence against liberals:

http://newsflavor.com/opinions/right-wing-media-stokes-violence-against-liberals/

If you remember, I asked for a legitimate source. This one certainly isn't. It's an opinion piece, it has nothing to do with an organized movement by the right wing media to hurt liberals. It has to do with a lone gunman, and the really, really big stretch to somehow connect him to the right wing media, which is just laughable. Plus, he lost me when he said this:

"However as blacks became more integrated into society, conservatives had to add to their list of enemies."

If you read your history books, it was the conservatives who were pro-civil rights movement, and the liberals who were against it.

http://www.politicalarticles.net/blog/2009/04/12/the-torrent-of-violent-revolutionary-rhetoric-being-unleashed-by-right-wing-media/

Any article that used words like "bastards", "bigots", "lunatics", etc. isn't legitimate. If it can't report without calling names, it's not legitimate.

http://www.whistlestopper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80832

I can't believe you linked a message board as a legitimate source.

Then there are the articles about secession.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/267681
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/new-hampshire-legislature-defining-conditions-secession

Ok, I didn't know that there was an actual state considering it, and it being New Hampshire doesn't mean much. However, everything I have heard about this topic is NOT about secession, but state's rights. State's rights are a good thing. You need to go check out the 10th amendment. The federal government is out of control.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/04/16/texas-governor-says-secession-possible/

Nowhere in this article does it actually cite the Texas governor saying that Texas would secede. Plus, it's from CNN, while barely legitimate, certainly is biased towards Obama.

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=550830

My internet filter wouldn't let me see this one, which says a lot. Plus, it says forum, which I assume is some sort of message board. Again, not legitimate.



fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 11:51 AM

Quote: "Don't mean to be gross, but wouldn't want to go to the special ed where the babies with little or no brains are. Don't think there are enough caregivers in the world for that. That is where most of the late term abortions are from."

heartless. simply heartless

Smoke said "Fainodraino, there are many reasons to terminate malformed fetuses. Look up anencephalic in wiki, and you'll see an example of what most late term abortions are. Some won't live long past birth in any case, or if the bodies live there will be so little brain function that the baby represents a massive burden on an existing family and on society."

So just because they might die anyway, let's just kill 'em anyway? I know, let's let them be born, wait a day or two, and then kill them. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Burden to society? What is a legitimate burden to our society? Spending taxpayer dollars to pay for abortions? Giving money to companies who run themselves into the ground? Giving money to homeowners who have no business owning a home? Paying for a date for the president?

"I don't presume to judge for everyone what's right or wrong for them to do in their lives,"

Yes you do. Everyone does. You can't escape it. You think it's wrong for me or anyone else to judge what's right or wrong for other people. Therefore, you are making a judgment that it's wrong for me to do that.

"I'm very happy that you had the CHOICE and things turned out well for your family, I would never want to make that choice."

It actually was no choice at all.



sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 11:53 AM

your internet filter won't let you see what?? Are you in China?

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 11:56 AM

No, I'm at school. The filter will not let you see sites that are "Adult-oriented material, Illegal material, or racist or hate-oriented material". Since it probably isn't the first two, I can only assume it's that latter.


sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 12:00 PM

yep, that would be me

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 12:02 PM

I was talking about the article, not you!

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 12:06 PM

how do you know if it's filtered?

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 12:08 PM

Because our filter will not let us even see the site, an alternate page comes up that says "you can't see this site because..." (paraphrase).

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 12:11 PM

"So just because they might die anyway, let's just kill 'em anyway? I know, let's let them be born, wait a day or two, and then kill them. Yeah, that's the ticket."


You have no idea what you are talking about us you have lived it.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 12:11 PM

UNLESS you have lived it.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 12:12 PM

It's not they MIGHT die, but that they will. And are they even alive to begin with no brain?

No, I think they are not alive as we know it and they are not people as we understand it. They are poor little empty bodies that will never even be self-aware. Why condemn that to lve? You wouldn't do it to a dog and only a fanatic would do it to a human.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 12:18 PM

I can just imaging you smiling while pulling the wings off of flies .....

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 12:18 PM

I'm sorry, but you have no idea what I have "lived".

Smoke, there you go making judgments again. I thought you were against that.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 12:19 PM

Of course it was a choice. They said "wife or baby" and you said baby.

That would not be my choice and I hope not my husband's. I'm glad your wife was lucky.

fudypatootie
Fudypatootie  (Level: 197.2 - Posts: 1302)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 12:19 PM

"Burden to society? What is a legitimate burden to our society? Spending taxpayer dollars to pay for abortions? Giving money to companies who run themselves into the ground? Giving money to homeowners who have no business owning a home? Paying for a date for the president?"

Hehe

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 12:20 PM

Interesting, even in the small, very Christian town that i work (not live) in, the doctors, thank god don't try to keep dead folks alive like they used to. when i first started working in hospitals in the 70s, well, they smelled bad.
I'm sorry if that offends anyone.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 12:21 PM

Don't think I said anything about what you've "lived", Faino.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 12:27 PM

"I'm sorry, but you have no idea what I have "lived"."

You are correct, my apologies but you have no idea what others have lived.

I am the example my mother gives about the anencephalic child, that was my daughter. I tried to terminate at 5 months but was FORCED to carry her til birth. It was devastation on a scale that no one could ever know who has not lived it. I am pro-choice as I know from experience there are circumstances where it should be available.

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 12:27 PM

Sorry Smoke, that first part was intended for Goddess, not you. should have specified.

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 12:34 PM

Goddess, I am very, very sorry for your loss, and I certainly cannot relate to what you personally went thru. I am not sure how or why you were forced to carry the baby to term. I will not try to tell you that what you did was right or wrong. I simply believe that everything happens for a reason, and every life is of value. These are my beliefs. Mine. You have yours. That's the problem with the whole abortion debate. The majority of people in this world have strongly held beliefs about the topic (still unsure about politicians--don't know if they believe in anything, regardless of party).


caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 12:36 PM

This thread began by bashing a Christians as solmehow responsible for this wing -nuts action. He was a wing-nout long before he ever got invopolved with any church - first "cause was taxes anti government- before the lawyers got him released on a technicalityhttp://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/02/us/02recruit.html funny too that the church he was involved in was focused on the Old Testament "eye for an eye" thing which I know that O'Reilly as a Catholic never used in his church. Seem we have now gotten to the heart of the issue though-everyone should be pro-choice -dunno-seems like many have agendas that they sneak in everywhere

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 12:46 PM

I'm sorry, baby, I wasn't going to make it personal, but I wanted to make the point that there is more to late term abortions than the whim of an irresponsible mother. There are real people and tragic situations you can't imagine unless you've lived it. We have.

My daughter was in the military at the time, and not only would they not pay for a termination procedure to save her months of carrying a fetus she knew the whole time had no chance of survival, they threatened to court martial her if she had her pregnancy terminated on her own. Sit with your crying daughter while she feels a WANTED baby kicking in her belly that she knows is doomed.

Those were black days for all of us, months of sadness and grief for no reason, culminating in that awful day that should have been a day of rejoicing. And while we were waiting for the baby's tiny heart to slow down and stop, I'll never forget or forgive her sister-in-law at the time, whom she had never met, calling her in that very hour to say that the baby was a message to her to "get right with Jesus."

Bitter? Personal? Maybe a little.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 12:46 PM

Goddess, I'm so sorry, so upset that you had to experience that. PM


caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 12:56 PM

Sorry for that, Goddess. After 5 mos. of my third pregnancy had what was then called a miscarriage. Wasn't totally out of it and heard those in the room talking about the "little thing" being in pieces. I was moved to a room with mothers who had babies brought in and one nurse came in and asked, "Are you the one who aborted?" Know that was/is the medical term for a miscarriage but found it very offensive and unthinkable then and do to this day. Can't even imagine someone willingly making that CHOICE-but that is just me. Either way resent something else working people have to pay for-Linda

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 1:05 PM

My last post also had nothing to do with the original topic of this thread which bashed right-wingers for encouraging this wing-nut. That quickly turned into right-wingers being Christians but not Black Christians. It further turned to the right-wing media -namely O'Reilly encouraging it. The point is this guy was a wing-nut going way back-but attorneys got him cut loose on a technicality-perhaps that is the direction this thread should have turned dunno..

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 1:09 PM

Linda, is there something here that you don't understand ?

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 1:19 PM

Meaning what, Sandy, that I don't understand??? :S

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 1:34 PM

Our Church softball team needs a left fielder. Since many of you are out there anyway, is anyone interested?

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 1:38 PM

This is ans essay done when the doc was still alive. This too has no reference to the original thread topic but kind of hints that the doc might have been in it for the bucks not the good of babies or mothers. The killer was a wing-nut long before he was ever associated with a church or religion and attorneys got him off on a technicality. Holding Christians responsible is as crazy as this loon is-

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 1:38 PM

"How many politicians have made that quest and later chickened our because they had no courage and cared about only power."

Those who seek power never chicken out. They're all in D.C., including the White House.

"He was obscure man; whom my younger brother happened to work for during his community organizing days. I know where his heart is. Also, my girlfriend was his wife's secretary. You don't know anything about this skinny little humble man."

I bet we know just as much as you know about him. Anyone with half a brain can tell who he is, by who he associates with, the policies he supports, and the philosophy he espouses.

"It can only benefit US, if we have these healthy debates because we do need to realize the benefit comes from the will of the people."

The will of the people truly put him in office, but the will of the people is no longer being paid attention to by him.

"Obama won the election! Obama is not as liberal as you think he is."

No, he's MORE liberal than I think he is. and obviously more liberal than you think he is.


fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 1:42 PM

"I think the Lying Cheating Bush Klan was behind it"

Couldn't you put just about any politician's name in there and it be true? I love how the left likes to think that only Bush was a corrupt politician, all the while ignoring their new prez. Good grief.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 1:45 PM

Maybe due to the 8 years of Clinton bashing prior? LOL. Endless cycle.

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 1:47 PM

Clevercloggs said "Do not try and push your morals down the throats of people who see things differently."

That's EXACTLY what you're trying to do. Anyone who is pro-choice is JUST like someone who is pro-life...a person who has beliefs and tries to convince the other that their way is right.



fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 1:54 PM

Smoke said "Jank, Scott Roeder didn't exist in a vacuum. He was deeply involved for many years in radical organizations that approve and condone and celebrate these acts. And he didn't have to look far in the right-wing media for motivation and approval of what he did. No one is trying to say all Christians are like this man, but so many of those who are like him or approve of him are also loudly, aggressively Christian and cite it as their primary motivation. I've seen them at clinics and I saw them picketing the nursing home when Terry Schiavo lay dying. They're terrifying, fanatical people. They are the breeding ground for the right-wing domestic terrorists Homeland Security was ridiculed for warning us about."

....sorry....hard to....type....because of all....this....laughing!!!!


smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 1:56 PM

Your analogy might have merit if there were any pro-choicers trying to force anti-abortionists to terminate their pregnancies.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 1:57 PM

Sandy, if you are suggesting that most late term abortions are Downs Syndrome kids, I think you may be mistaken. My understanding is that they are mostly just late term choices by the mother without medical reasons.

Barry, thank you for the reference to Olbermann's clip. I'll have to watch it a few times before I can reach any conclusion about its contents.

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 2:08 PM

Ok, I have finally caught up with just about everything, as I came into this discussion late. However, I watched the Olbermann link, which is just ridiculous. First of all, Olbermann HATES O'Reilly and FNC (mainly because FNC routinely destroys MSNBC in the ratings). He is certainly biased against them. This is the same guy who was removed from campaign coverage because of his comments. You know if he was removed by MSNBC, a totally liberal institution, then it HAD to have been bad.

To say that O'Reilly and/or FNC had something to do with this guy being killed is completely idiotic and stupid. The dude made the choice for himself. He did not have to kill the guy, he was not told to do so by O'Reilly or FNC, nor did any sort of "environment" make or persuade him to do it. He made the choice.

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 2:11 PM

"Your analogy might have merit if there were any pro-choicers trying to force anti-abortionists to terminate their pregnancies."

There are. Know people who have been encouraged by pro-choice doctors to have abortions when it was completely unnecessary. Happens frequently.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 2:14 PM

Coll, I don't think it's any of your business.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 2:16 PM

Advised, even encouraged is not forced. And you're taking about medical consultations, not organized protests and acts of force and violence.

crazy4games
Crazy4games  (Level: 123.0 - Posts: 1020)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 2:28 PM

Fainodraino said:

"To say that O'Reilly and/or FNC had something to do with this guy being killed is completely idiotic and stupid. The dude made the choice for himself. He did not have to kill the guy, he was not told to do so by O'Reilly or FNC, nor did any sort of "environment" make or persuade him to do it. He made the choice"


Right, it's all about CHOICE!

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 2:35 PM

Again slightly off topic but wonder if the "man" Olbermann will be held responsible for the Muslim guy shooting the recruiters. He was a home grown one-Tennessee- already under investigation by the FBI for traveling to Yemen on false Somali passport. He did not attend any kind of terrorist training camp that anyone knows about so surely a media person was behind it. After being arrested he said not an exact quote that if there had been more soldiers in the parking lot he would have shot them too- gesus-get a grip on who the enemy is-Egypt will get another apology for America's past arrogance-any clue who the arrogant one might be?? ;S

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 2:38 PM

I do not understand your reply, Sandy.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 2:46 PM

What don't you understand? Oh yeah, you're a man.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 2:57 PM

I understand.

I understand that the pro-abortion lobby has been lying about the reasons given for late term abortions for at least a couple of decades. And you will recall that Roe v Wade as originally handed down did not permit abortion in the third trimester. Here in France the limit is four months, and no one seems to have a problem with it.

Abortion isn't an issue for me - I prefer not to hear about it

But I really detest liars.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 3:23 PM

who exactly are you calling a liar?

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 3:28 PM

Faindraino: I don't know if states "flirting with secession" is the right way to put it, since it is a minority within a given state who claim to desire secession, followed by pandering to the would-be secessionists by mainstream politicians. Several polls in different states have been done on secession, and approximately 25% of Texans are for it. From the Global Jesus Christ Network, www.gjcn.org/2009/04/17/conflict-in-polls-should-texas-secede:

"However, then the propaganda war starts. On Drudge Report today the top headline was “POLL: 75% OF TEXANS WOULD VOTE TO STAY IN USA” which linked to ( this story ).

Now having been born in Houston, Texas and having lived in Texas all of my life I’d have to consider myself Texan for sure. I have a problem with anyone telling Texans what they can and can’t do when it comes to “The Union”. I honestly believe that most Texans do want out of the union because DC has flew the coop in my view and it started a long time ago."

The quote refers to a Rasmussen poll. From the Rasmussen Reports website, we get a quote -- widely reported when made -- from Gov. Perry, which, without reading into the statement any code or subtext, does not flatly reject the idea of secession:

Three-fourths (75%) of Lone Star State voters would opt to remain in the United States. Only 18% would vote to secede, and seven percent (7%) are not sure what they'd choose.

Texas Governor Rick Perry, in response to a reporter’s question about secession at a protest "tea party," said Wednesday, "We've got a great union. There's absolutely no reason to dissolve it. But if Washington continues to thumb their nose at the American people, you know, who knows what might come out of that? But Texas is a very unique place, and we're a pretty independent lot to boot." The comment was widely reported in the media.

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 3:34 PM

As legitimate sources, Faindraino apparently only accepts Fox Noise.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 3:45 PM

Don't know much about Texas but believe the folks who live there say Perry is on his way out. Just goes to show ya the folks in DC probably not speaking for the people they are supposed to work for-including the guy at the top. Don't know though elections are determined much be the lobbyists and who gets who out to vote-

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 3:50 PM

Sandy, you seem to be having a bad day.

"I understand that the pro-abortion lobby has been lying about the reasons given for late term abortions for at least a couple of decades."



caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 4:05 PM

I'll have to check but don't recall Faino quoiting any source just disputing the validity of Maurlin's blog and his opinion as to the weight anything Olbermann might have to say about anything.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 4:12 PM

You're right Coll, I am having a bad day. I'll always remember (but not who said it).
"If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament" I know that's not an exact quote, but pretty close, and I happen to think it's true.
I know that you don't agree, so you don't need reply, and really, I wish you wouldn't.
We hear a lot about what you're doing, so we would be okay for a day or two.

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 4:26 PM

If you'll recall from an earlier post, I ASKED for someone, anyone, to give legitimate sources. I wasn't making an argument where I needed sources. I was simply seeing if anyone could provide some proof about the discussion at hand, and Maurlin's sources were mostly ridiculous. I call 'em like I see 'em. If you don't like it, then I would say the truth hurts. Blogs, message boards, and websites who are dedicated to one side or the other are often, but not always, unreliable sources. I admitted to not knowing about New Hampshire's bill about secession and stand corrected.

And Fox News is not the only news source that I view, but it is one. I also catch AP, the big three (on occasion), among others. I will watch CNN if it's the only thing on, but after Wolf Blitzer and Anderson Cooper and others could barely restrain themselves when the Dems won back Congress, I stopped tuning in. MSNBC is just a joke. Headline News, while being associated with CNN, is usually ok because they don't deal too much with politics and opinions, mainly just news.

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 4:27 PM

Oh, and Olbermann is a disgrace.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 4:31 PM

You guys are the absolute worst losers on earth, bar none.

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 4:34 PM

Me, everybody who's posting, or the guys-not-girls who are posting, or just guys in general. Not that I care, just wanted some clarification.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 4:54 PM

Perhaps Smoke is referencing the Conservative folks-dunno-a tragic story is tragic to anyone but it does not change religious or political views. When one starts a tread bashing conservatives and religions and then turns it racist one cannot expect people not to be offended nor not reply- Linda

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 5:01 PM

BWAAAAAAHAAAHAAAHAAAA!!!

Nearly hurt myself on that one.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 5:56 PM

I am going to stick my 2 cents in. A baby born without a brain has no chance to live. Any real christian would have to say it would be inhumane not to end a fetus knowing they would be born a vegetable. I think you can still be a christian and be pro-choice. I believe that we already have an overloaded entitlement system. To bring babies into the world that would require such expensive long term care taxes and already overwhelmed system that we all have to pay for. That is just the economics of it, the humanity of it is how can you say it is christian to force women to have these babies when they know of the deformities. It is just not christian.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 6:00 PM

A true Christian knows that God will never give you more than you can bare.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 6:03 PM

This isn't about whether you are a man or a woman, Sandy.

Late term abortion is essentially infanticide, and a society that does not protect human life is on a pretty slippery slope.

Some doctors went before Congress on this subject in the 90s. Later it was learned that they hadn't told the truth.

This is far from a burning issue with me (as it is for some) and while I personally am not comfortable with late term abortions except in cases where the need for such is well established, I just wish we could have some clarity on the subject.

Doctors lying to Congress is not my idea of clarity.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 6:09 PM

Oh and Andy what the h--- do any of us women care about your opinions. Why don't you go take another hike around a chateau or something maybe that will wear you out. You act as though all the women who get late abortions are lazy and wait to long.

oldcougar
Oldcougar  (Level: 219.7 - Posts: 1935)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 6:11 PM

Knowing what I know now about my disabled son's life, the misery & sadness he endures, I would have aborted. More than once he has told me, he wished he wasn't born. I want you all to understand that no child was more wanted by his mother but deliberately bringing a child into this world who has significant disabilities is selfish. I could go on about terrible tales from the Premie Ward but you get the idea. Others may think it is God's will but many of these children only survive because of recent medical miracles. Perhaps God was trying to tell me something when I miscarried the year before. Don't think from my remarks that I would have all less than perfect children put down but if one is given the choice think of the future of that child (and the other children in the family).

My heart goes out to you, Goddess & your mom, Smoke & the family for being forced to endure such a barbaric event. I know how long the pain lingers

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 6:15 PM

Felix, God also says he will help those that help themselves. He doesn't want babies to be suffering.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 6:17 PM

On that very Olberman link, Olberman unashamedly brags his goal is to drive O'Reilly off the air and out of a job.

O'Reilly has had the #1 cable show for 10 years running. Olberman is barely in the top 10 (#10 for 1st quarter 2009). A lot of what Olberman says and does it pure jealousy and hatred. That's not to say that everything he says isn't true, but he does deserve to be listened to with the realization of where he's coming from.

Sometimes reporting is undependable because of what you leave out, not what you put in.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 6:19 PM

Curious... worry about the burden on the health care system when one believes John Q Public should get it free knowing full well if it is free for John Q someone(s) are paying

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 6:40 PM

I think we are mixing apples with oranges. Come on now, I didn't say anything about free. There is no free anymore someone will have to pay for health care. That is another thread isn't it. Health care for babies born with severe birth defects is costly. In the world some would want they would be born without health care into poverty and ignorance. Is this the God you are speaking of. What kind of world would that be. You have no choice but to have a baby born with defects and no money to provide health care for them, and no insurance. I really don't know what side you folks are debating on.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 6:43 PM

Randy, appreciate you telling your story as a mom with a child with disabilities-thank you for that. Linda

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 6:50 PM

Quite sure in the world some of you would make. 1. Women would have no choice but to have babies if pregnant no matter what the circumstance 2. Since you are conservative, they would have to pay for and support babies 3. They would have no help from state since that would cost money. 4. They would have to pray to God to help them because no one else would. 5. Who in the h--- would want to live in that world.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 6:55 PM

I have never thought of caring for a child as somehow being cost prohibitive. God sets the course of all of our lives as each step is already written. He puts many things in our lives that we'd rather not be inconvenienced by. Yes, that's the God I am speaking of.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 7:02 PM

But then, you've never been pregnant. Probably a lot of things you've never thought of.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 7:04 PM

Thanks for the shot Smoke. Women do have the right to say no. I doubt that...........

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 7:07 PM

Hardly a shot, just a fact. Besides, if God's already written it all down, what's the point of arguing? We're just following the script, right?

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 7:08 PM

Felix I don't think you know nothing bout birthin no babies! Oh I have two of them so I would know. Stick to something you know and you are no preacher for the moral majority.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 7:12 PM

Correct. It's comforting to know that you still have to use a put down to state your opinion. Make fun of God's word if you like. You probably blame him for the type of person you are. Single minded people often don't except God, but there is always hope.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 7:15 PM

Bobo - all humans lived in that world for thousands of years up until 1960s. What ever happened to doing all the choosing BEFORE one gets pregnant? That's the time to choose to not get pregnant. There are many low cost ways to not get pregnant. And there is one absolutely guaranteed way to not get pregnant - and it is absolutely free to woman and society.

Any time before the 1970s, no mom knew if her baby was healthy or not during pregnancy - it's only because of modern medicine that anyone finds out pre-birth.

My son and daughter-in-law are as strongly pro-life as I am. When my daughter-in- law found out she was pregnant at age 36, the doctor wanted to test for all abnormalities. My son and DIL refused, because they don't believe in abortion and they would make no changes no matter what a test would tell.

Please remember again. 50% of ALL abortions are 2nd (or more) abortions used as birth control. They have nothing to do with health of mom or baby.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 7:16 PM

I don't blame "him" for anything, silly, and I'm fine with who I am, thanks all the same.

That was not a putdown. I was absolutely serious. If you really believe it's already all written down somewhere, then what's the point of arguing? Or anything?

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 7:17 PM

And I believe Fathers have rights, too.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 7:23 PM

"What ever happened to doing all the choosing BEFORE one gets pregnant? That's the time to choose to not get pregnant. There are many low cost ways to not get pregnant. And there is one absolutely guaranteed way to not get pregnant - and it is absolutely free to woman and society."

Wouldn't it be wonderful if it was all that simple?

How dare you?


jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 7:28 PM

How dare I?

What part of the truth deserves how dare I?


felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 7:30 PM

Accountability is just that simple. Why should society 'bailout' everyone that makes a bad decision. Refrain from sex and you don't get pregnant.

How dare YOU!

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 7:30 PM

The part where you assume that the only reason a woman or a girl can seek an abortion is because she failed to say no to sex. Am I understanding you correctly?

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 7:36 PM

My daughter wanted her baby. She was married.

A lot of women terminate pregnancies for medical reasons when they wanted the baby. A lot of girls and women are raped and victims of incest. People in perfectly respectable relationships have birth control failure at a time in their lives when they don't want or can't manage a child - which is a legal right, the law of the land, like it or not. There are other reasons but I'm short on time.

You want to stop abortions by stopping sex? Keep it in your pants.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 7:38 PM

No, Donna - I apologize for giving that impression. I was just responding to Bobo saying what kind of world....etc. after I said 50% of abortions are not the woman's first abortion and it is used as nothing but birth control when it's so easy to not get pregnant.

My heart aches for what your sweet daughter and the whole family went through with her pregnancy and baby. I don't know that I could have been as strong as you and the family were.



felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 7:39 PM

Most abortions have little to do with rape, incest or harm to mother and or child by continuing a pregnancy. Those are valid reasons. Are you saying that those are the major reasons for someone to kill an unborn child in the world today.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 7:43 PM

I totally agree there are far too many abortions of convenience. I'm saying we need to keep it legal for the cases which do NOT fit that description. And I want better and cheaper and more accessible birth control. I want people to get their heads out of the sand about teenage sexuality and teach them to take precautions.

I can't talk more now, much as I'd like to; a pub full of people are waiting for me to fuddle their minds.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 7:44 PM

Yet another reason to give thanks to God!

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 8:03 PM

Donna, thank you for agreeing with my point - that many late term abortions are not necessary and that perhaps the procedure should be kept available for those that have valid reasons.

And I'll remind you all that Roe v Wade never intended late term abortions.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 8:21 PM

BTW, Bobo, I'll ignore your stupid response.

Another subject you have trouble discussing intelligently.

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 8:39 PM

Jank:

Did Olberman tell you he poked fun at Bellow Reilly out of "jealousy and hatred"? I watch Olberman with some regularity. Nothing I have ever heard him say about O'Reilly strikes me as based on either jealousy or hatred. In fact, his bits about Bellow usually involve showing actual clips of O'Reilly commentary, and pointing out BO's hypocrisy and/or misrepresentations. Olberman has, of course, a lot of material to work with.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 8:46 PM

P.S. Andy you rock, my friend!

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 9:24 PM

Oldcougar....."My heart goes out to you, Goddess & your mom, Smoke & the family for being forced to endure such a barbaric event. I know how long the pain lingers"

Thank you. I was the most horrible thing I have ever endured.

As far as the other post that god only gives us what we can bear....there is no god I want to believe in that would put me through that. Deal breaker.


chickfbref1
Chickfbref1  (Level: 120.7 - Posts: 2012)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 9:27 PM

30 Seconds...I bet that's how long it takes my last post to get deleted.

HRH...Me.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 9:32 PM

HRH....I agree. I am sorry to see how this thread has turned. Sometimes you have to speak up, though nothing anyone says really matters in the grand scheme of things.

chickfbref1
Chickfbref1  (Level: 120.7 - Posts: 2012)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 9:37 PM

Someone gunned a person down in a church...was THAT the original point of this post?

I have yet to understand how that becomes a downward spiral into what he does for a living....he was murdered in cold blood?

DID I MISS SOMETHING?

HRH...Me.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 9:49 PM

I am guessing it has something to do with the reason he was murdered.

chickfbref1
Chickfbref1  (Level: 120.7 - Posts: 2012)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 9:51 PM

Then it makes it OK?

Confused again...so if someone hates my job...or what I do for a living...it's OK?

HRH...Me.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 9:55 PM

Andy, no one listens to you either, especially since you choose to argue from France. Exactly how many facts and emotions do you have on a women's choice to have and abortion. Your are pompous and arrogant and your opinions count for nothing to me.

oldcougar
Oldcougar  (Level: 219.7 - Posts: 1935)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 10:01 PM

You're right, Chickie, nothing we say will change anyones mind. Sometimes I just can't let the crap stand unchallenged. Nice use of colourful language in preceding post

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 10:02 PM

So I am on record. I believe in abortion only as a last resort not as a form of birth control. I believe sexually active people should be responsible to prevent pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases by using condoms. If we lived in a perfect world we wouldn't need abortions. We don't end of story, and abstinence is just a ridiculous solution. Yeah that will work tell people just say no to sex. I think what happened to the Doctor is appalling and it is a symptom of ever increasing violence from ALL extremist groups.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 10:07 PM

Bobo. Great post. I wish the very first one that started the thread had been that logical, unoffensive, and clear cut.Thank you!

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 10:07 PM

I can't let this go without expressing my opinion. I am a not religious but I do believe in God and Christ. I don't however go on and on about it. I absolutely don't want a bible sermon on my trivia site. I am sure I am not the only one who feels this way. Please stop shoving the Bible and your way of dealing with the world down peoples throat. I think you know who I am speaking to. It is very uncomfortable to air your so called Christianity like a banner at every thread. It is very reactionary and predictable.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 10:14 PM

No cryptic needed. But it's who I am, what I am, and the only reason for my opinions.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 10:27 PM

I actually do respect you for that and your dedication to your faith comes thru. However not every one is as diligent as you. Some people use labels like Christian in the name of anything but Christianity. I do believe that is not the case with you. I read how you are with your students and I admire what you try to do.

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 11:18 PM

I'm just jumping in here but, Bobo said this...

"Felix, God also says he will help those that help themselves. He doesn't want babies to be suffering"

Could you please find this in the Bible for me? Don't look too hard, cuz it isn't in there.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Tue, 2nd Jun '09 11:19 PM

Huge Raging Hemerrhoid: A.K.A HRH: You said, "Someone gunned a person down in a church...was THAT the original point of this post? I have yet to understand how that becomes a downward spiral into what he does for a living....he was murdered in cold blood? DID I MISS SOMETHING? Then it makes it OK? Confused again...so if someone hates my job...or what I do for a living...it's OK?". I don't remember who said it was okay on this thread specifically, but now I'm confused! You've never heard of situational ethics before, or what? It seems like a legitimate "discussion" to me.....or perhaps your merely expressing your faith in deontological ethics? I don't care either way what you personally believe in....just wanted some clarification is all.

Janice: You said, "And I believe Fathers have rights, too.". I don't hear that enough expressed in the abortion debate. You rock!

(BTW, for all of you who don't know, Huge Raging Hemerrhoid was not meant to be a put down. Chick can take the teasing).

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 12:01 AM

Janice,
Your love of God really doesn’t affect me. That’s your choice. Nothing dramatic happened in my life that makes me mock God and be as bitter as you say. Because believing in an Invisible man in the sky is not mockery; it's factual. Many people do believe that. Imagine being taught as a Christian child, teenager, and young adult that "all men are created equal"; graduate from college enter the real world and find out the color of your skin says NO you're not. As far as hate filled against Christians is concerned, I don’t hate any one or Christians just their absolutely, pointed, desire to convince me and others like me to believe there is a single Supreme Being controlling destiny. I'm just as much in pain as you and other Christians. As a child no other group of Christians were more persecuted than Catholics; then and now as a non believer I get does of venom. But my skin is tuff. It regenerates.
I have an insatiable appetite for knowledge which leads me to be a wee bit more curious than other who just accepts things at face value.


Many people did kill the doctor. Not just- one man. Groups that ascribe to hateful catchphrases actually aggrandizes aggressive and violent rhetoric such as…“Killer Tiller”, Fox news’ endless loops of edited and distorted views of liberals, ( don’t forget Sarah Palin’s followers at campaign stops extolling kill the then candidate Obama) although she did denounce the killer of Dr. Tiller. Rush Limbaugh, Right Wing radio talks. We have seen the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther king, two Kennedy brothers now Dr. Tiller. Who will be next?
We have plenty of odd balls out there; and that type of violent rhetoric is what motivates to be bringing attention to them. Dan Holman, Right Wing talk show host, even justifies the assassination of our Presidents. http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/06/01/abortion.dan.holman/index.html?iref=newssearch

How creditable are these things? I listen to both sides then formulate my opinions.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#31054073
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/01/03/conservative-radio-host-a_n_37681.html
And what alarms me am that I see the rhetoric of the Republican Party right now, including the former vice president talking about our newly elected African-American president has the same sort of coded stuff in it. He‘s not a real American. He‘s making America less safe. He‘s a secret Muslim. Some Christians in the same groups that are pro-life groups are running around saying he‘s the anti-Christ.
Yes, it was irresponsible for me to make a sweeping generalization; however, I thought I cleared it up in my response to those who thought I offended them. I said… “You know who you are” so that should have excluded those with out that persuasion.
I appreciate your mercy for me, and I welcome your prayers for me the same as I have done with family and other friends. BTW: My family thinks I am a misfit in society. LOL. However, I seriously doubt if I will go backwards so to speak. The popular catchphrase is..."Been There Done That". I like looking forward much better!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
boblicious
thanks for letting others know no one can live with out a brain, even a baby.



chickfbref1
Chickfbref1  (Level: 120.7 - Posts: 2012)
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 1:30 AM

1st of all...my original post (which I might add took about 5 minutes to be deleted, cause I dropped the F bomb...not the real one but a derivative thereof) stated that I was sorry that a post about the murder of a human being spiraled into an argument that NO ONE WILL WIN.

Secondly...while Bigmamma did ostracize alot of people...seriously, the murder was hypocritical and repugnant. To argue that seems tantamount to bashing your head against the wall and wondering why it hurts.

Thirdly...my hemorrhoids are fine, since you are out of my life...thanks for being concerned. (Smootches)

Fourthly...(kinda impressed I spelled that properly)...NO ONE WILL WIN THIS ARGUMENT (did I say that before?)

Fifthly....I'm the HMFIC of all editors and every post hereafter will be deleted.

HRH...Me.



smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 2:10 AM

HRH: Ah, thanx for clarifying what was going on there with your usual dose of humor, although I will say that even though no one wins I enjoy reading the posts anyway. You get to know alot about someone through these threads, even if no one changes much through them. G'night Chick!

Bigmama: I admit this post is going to be awkward and that I'm going to struggle for words here. It's JUST my first impression that I got, but I do believe your statement that "believing in a big invisible man in the sky" could be taken as a put down, or at least can come off that way. Although the God many believe in is described using anthropormorphic qualities, very few I imagine seriously believe that God is an actual MAN. I don't imagine many seriously believe either that god is big in terms of spacial dimension, or that should God choose we could not "see" said object of devotion, or last that God somehow "lives in the sky". Your sentence is factual? Ha ha, hardly my friend.

That sentence comes off TO ME "as if" you are characterizing people through those words as people who believe in something that is intellectually "laughably" and "hopelessly" false. The way it came off to me, it "seemed" like an instant dismissal of the intellect and intelligence of a whole group of people. It feels exclusionary, as if you are saying the religious just aren't on your level. Just my first impression, if you are looking to avoid offending people, perhaps some other word choice might do. No hard feelings btw.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 2:21 AM


Chickfbref1 How did i ostracize any one? People find their own niches.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 2:30 AM

Janice
I hope Dave(Cloggs) doesn't mind me responding to you. You sad...

And Cloggs, there are geniuses out there who actually believe in God, rather than mocking "our invisible friend." Far smarter people than I have studied and are convinced there is a God
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The operative word there is "convinced" not whimsical.


bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 2:50 AM



Janice

Spell check picked up sad instead of "Said".

So again, I'm posting in response to what you "said" to Dave.
The operative word there is "convinced" not whimsical. Or better yet, I should have said they are convinced; but, that's not empirical. Where did they physically see Him?

I hope Dave(Cloggs) doesn't mind me responding to you. You said...

And Cloggs, there are geniuses out there who actually believe in God, rather than mocking "our invisible friend." Far smarter people than I have studied and are convinced there is a God
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The operative word there is "convinced" not whimsical.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 4:00 AM

I'm sorry, Bobo.

You do not know my positions on this subject which is well beyond your pay grade.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 4:46 AM

HMFIC?

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 4:47 AM

Barry, I have watched the Olbermann clip several times now and done a bit of research. Unfortunately (like his book which was so infantile I refused to finish it) it is typical of his juvenile "leap of faith" style - an unworthy piece of telejournalism.

The greatest leap of faith concerns a reference to a PRE-TRIAL prayer meeting where he cites a expressed wish that Dr Tiller's operation be shut down, obviously by court decision, not as a result of violence.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 8:59 AM

I glanced at the link, I really don't have the time this A.M.; but will devour it later as it piques my appetite. I will say this Organized Religion as I learned in my earlier life to me (hear that name callers before you start passing negative condemnations) "to me" is an organization that brainwashes people. I don't need that. Does anyone remember Nat Turner who started a slave rebellion in the United States because he was talking to god? God told him to kill. Isn't that hysterical?

Sploofus Editor
(Editor)  
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 9:10 AM

A post was removed because it made offensive remarks about religion. Please be respectful about sensitive topics, and before posting review the Terms of Use found on the Post Message page.

Thank you.



fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 9:50 AM

First, Bigmama, I find it EXTREMELY hilarious that you say that you look at both sides and then form your opinion, and then post links to CNN, MSNBC, and the Huffington Post. Oh yeah, real open-minded there.

Bobo said:

"I am a not religious but I do believe in God and Christ..."

Jesus wasn't religious either.

"I don't however go on and on about it..."

Which says a lot about just how much you believe in God and Christ.

"I absolutely don't want a bible sermon on my trivia site."

Then don't come to the message board. Everyone has just as much right to express their opinions as you do. Hypocrite.

"Please stop shoving the Bible and your way of dealing with the world down peoples throat."

Like you're shoving your ideas down our throats.

"It is very uncomfortable to air your so called Christianity like a banner at every thread."

Then get ready to be uncomfortable. Or just leave, like I suggested earlier.

"It is very reactionary and predictable."

Right back at you.



smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 9:54 AM

Nice.

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 9:57 AM

You're welcome.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 10:13 AM

Why is it that people like you have so much to say but you're always telling other people to shut up?

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 10:18 AM

I didn't tell anyone to shut up. And you know nothing about me, so shut up.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 10:18 AM

Jeremy, thank for explaining what HRH means.

I thought maybe it was Chicago Cubs lingo for "Wait Until Next Year."

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 10:23 AM

No, YOU shut up.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 2:31 PM

A post was removed because it made offensive remarks about religion............................
I take it that was my remark that merely repeated what is written in islamic hadiths. This kind of censorship is appalling, why should i respect religion ? Next you'll be telling me i have to respect the flat earth brigade. I also think it totally unsatisfactory that my Anne Coulter quiz has been waiting more than a month for an editor. It comes to prove what a disgrace the woman is when a quiz using her own quotes can't be published. Some much for the land of the free.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 2:33 PM

I meant "so" much of course.

Sploofus Editor
(Editor)  
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 2:40 PM

We are not asking that you respect religion, we are asking that you respect each other here on these boards.

I'm not familiar with the Coulter quiz, but Sploofus standards apply equally to quoted material.

Thanks.

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 3:16 PM

Clevercloggs: I'd like to take the Coulter quiz. Having once had to rewrite a quiz question which accurately set forth several Glenn beck statements because it appeared "I had an agenda", I am in complete sympathy with you on the quiz being held up. If the question and answer are factually accurate, there should be no question but that its legitimate, and if somebody is offended by reality, oh well. Any concerns about saying something about Coulter that could be deemed "offensive" is particularly laughable given that her whole shtick is being over-the-top offensive.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 3:30 PM

No, TSK, you should take the Olbermann quiz.

It's for folks like you who can't spot phony arguments.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 3:38 PM

I would love to take the Coulter quiz!
Hope this message wasn't too "over the top"

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 3:42 PM

Just FYI:

The Bible itself has the definition of religion:

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep one's self unspotted from the world.

If we all accepted the Bible's definition of religion, I don't think so many would hate or mock the word.

fudypatootie
Fudypatootie  (Level: 197.2 - Posts: 1302)
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 3:48 PM

Bobo said, "especially since you choose to argue from France"

Wow! What did France ever do to you? Why can't Coll have an opinion from France? Barnie has opinions from Spain. I don't get you sometimes.......

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 3:49 PM

I just found it and took it - not very interesting.

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 3:51 PM

there's an Olbermann quiz? Where?

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 4:02 PM

It was just a construct because the hack journalist is forever putting out connects that upon further inspection do not connect.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 4:04 PM

I forget, whom it was, someone kept crying about all members having the right to be heard. Andy, I can't believe you are there without approval. LMAO!

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 4:06 PM

Judy, serious discussions are above Bobo's pay grade.

fudypatootie
Fudypatootie  (Level: 197.2 - Posts: 1302)
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 6:07 PM



tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Wed, 3rd Jun '09 8:33 PM

Andy:

At the risk of blowing my reputation as a fairly even tempered fellow in political discussion -- generally eschewing personal attacks -- I do have to say that you are about the last person in the world from whom I would take lessons in logic. Your general method of argumentation is to make some assertion -- without supporting evidence -- preceded by "of course" or words of similar import. You then proceed to make some highly debatable statement in such a way as to implicitly belittle and/or marginalize anybody who does not accept your underlying premise, which is almost invariably a premise accepted by the privileged class in American society, presented as if said privileged perspective represented some universal truth from which disagreement is evidence of stupidity. If evidence is presented that demolishes your assertion, for instance, your claim that the American intervention in the Philippines commencing in 1899 was not imperialist in nature, you present nothing to refute the actual evidence presented but, instead, claim you don't remember things that way -- rather than forthrightly admit you are simply wrong.

So why don't you detail precisely what argument Olberman has made that doesn't withstand scrutiny which you contend I accept, and I can respond. That would be fair. It is not fair to accuse Olberman or me or Bobo (for example) or anyone else of making arguments that don't withstand logical analysis or are unsupported by evidence when you don't even identify the actual argument you are attacking that is supposedly fallacious.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 12:14 AM

TSK, I already outlined one of Olbermann's leaps of faith hereabove. Actually it's dishonest journalism as he omitted a key word "pretrial." The clip Barry referenced begins with another leap of faith where Olbermann uses the word "prooves" or "proof" where there is no proof..

You have told us that you watch Olbermann regularly.

Apparently you can't discern dishonest journalism, TSK.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 11:05 PM

I don't appreciate the reference to "pay grade". Is that supposed to mean something akin to your elitist nature. It is depicted in all your posts. Judy the reason I said he quotes from France is because he speaks with an air of aristocracy and hypocracy that quite frankly is pompous. I have told him this and others have as well. I don't see in humanity in his posts. Also Mr. Drano (supposed to be a little funny) I am tired of all the bibilical references it is not factual and sure to cause more arguments. We are not all of the same religious persuasion and I think it is too simplistic.

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 12:03 AM

You spelled Draino wrong.

I don't really care if you don't like it. I don't agree with what everyone else says, but I respect their right to have an opinion. Show some respect.

and if you don't, I have thick enough skin to take it, which apparently you're incapable of.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 12:09 AM

I think the "pay grade" thing was just a joking reference to Obama's answer to when life starts, asked by Rick Warren in the question/answer debate.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 12:44 AM

By which he meant he didn't know enough to comment intelligently.

I think it was insulting and an apology is owed.



collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 3:52 AM

Donna, I'm sorry that instead of responding to my remarks on point, Bobo instead posted a personal attack. It is not the first time and will probably not be the last.

Her remarks on several subjects of late indicate to me and others here that they are "beyond her pay grade." In other words she does not understand them but still engages in personal attacks on those posting opinions contrary to hers.

Is that the apology you were looking for?

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 12:34 PM

That is not the apology I was lookiing for nor do I expect to get one from yoiu. You neither debate intelligently or humanely. I have never noticed any references from blogs or publications to support any of your statements. Both Linda, BigMama, and Tsk always quote a reference source for their arguments. I have come to a point when my skin is getting thick, I have a right to my opinion and if I have an insight on a topic I will post. If you don't want to read it don't. References to "pay grade" only demean you Andy not me. You would never sway my opinion as others on Salty Dog have managed to do from time to time because your comments are unsubstaniated and are yours. Just that yours, you state your point as if it were doctrine, without any factual support. Then you call others out all the time for not basing their argument on fact. I don't understand why someone so clearly not happy in their homeland (you choose to live in France) cares enough to debate the issues in politics. I believe some would call you and expatriate. I am not knocking your living in France only question why you don't live in the States, land of your birth.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 1:26 PM

Bobo, you surely have a right to your opinion.

But we aren't discussing that, are we?



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