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bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 7:59 AM

A STRIKING BALANCE BETWEEN OUR US PRESIDENT, CHRISTIANS, MUSLIMS, AND FAITH

I continue to be moved by President Obama. This morning I heard more than oratorical skills. President Obama was a leader of the free world who stood before the podium in Cairo and gave dignified and necessary reasons why we all must work together towards building a better world. I hope if there is any doubt in any person's mind, this speech should be noted for a new beginning towards nuclear proliferation, violence between the Israelis and Palestinians, democracy, and women rights to come into a more tolerant, livable era. I think the way our President shaped the message, we, here in the United should be proud (I am) of how our US President stroke a balance. He didn't point fingers at one region without doing the same to another region. Don't get me wrong; one speech won't start bells ringing and 21- gun salute or the end of troubled tensions of the Middle East. But, it was a blue print for bells to start ringing if we work at it.

I think his vision, calmness, sincerity, and demeanor, suggests to me whether anyone is religious or not (I'm not) we should all strive towards interfaith recognition. My belief is no one has to be of any particular religion faith to be spiritual. Blessed are the peace makers!

Did anyone get the speech texted to their phone?


caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 9:30 AM

Nope, don't have anything he says streamed to my cell.but many think the key to the speech was his saying hat ANY country has the right to nuclear as long as it is for peaceful purposes. If you think he or anyone else can keep Iran to a deal with using nuclear for peaceful you really must look at this bridge I have for sale. Now talk is coming out of DC that the US may impose sanctions on Israel and not support them in the UN. If you think throwing Israel s well as our intelligence system under the bus is a great idea while proliferating nuclear everywhere then I guess it was a good speech One thing though that you might want to pay close attention to that he did well was talking about what others believe with "RESPECT' dunno-... just a thought Linda

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 10:45 AM

Linda, don't you think the Palestinians have a right to exist. Netanyahu is too adamant in his stance. After all, that was the Palestinians land before1948. Why should we continue to placate Israel when clearly, in my view, the problem in the Middle East is stubborness. The land belongs to the daughters and sons of the soil. Converting to a religion does not give a nation claim to something that is not their birthright. Yes, for centuries the Jewish people have been rejected. I feel their rejection. But, I also think if peace is to be attained they must be pliable. If every Jewish person lays claim to a land the size of California because of their conversion, what would that be?
Palestinians must stop the bombing too.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 10:57 AM

Believe it is pretty much the other way around so many folks including Hamaas now in control of Palestine believe Israel has no right to exist and refuse to recognize the fact that they do. Many like Iran have vowed to wipe them off the face of the earth. Cannot quite see your point nor his other than he is an excellent reader and as slick as they come. . Many take issue with his speaking to the "Muslim World" and how that is defined . Is it the Arab Muslim world the African or Indonesian Muslim world or the Muslim world that exists in the Chicago area or Dearborn, Mi. near where I grew up. No matter which Muslim world he is trying to speak to you can bet your life and you have that the terrorists aren't impressed that he has apologized for America yet another time. You lead with strength or a good bluff I was taught- he is respectful though and hope that was not lost on you-Linda

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 11:13 AM

If your reasoning is correct, many people ought to be giving a whole lot of land back to the Native American Indians-believe Chicago would be in that group somewhere

barnierubble
Barnierubble  (Level: 93.9 - Posts: 637)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 11:18 AM

You are such a sad, sad, person, Linda. Lighten up and give the man a chance. All you do is put your twisted interpretation of anything connected with the man. So, so sad.

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.0 - Posts: 240)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 11:23 AM

"After all, that was the Palestinians land before1948. Why should we continue to placate Israel when clearly, in my view, the problem in the Middle East is stubborness. The land belongs to the daughters and sons of the soil. Converting to a religion does not give a nation claim to something that is not their birthright."

Do you read history???

I don't know what else to say.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 11:36 AM

How much more of a chance should I give him, Barnie? He has spent more money if you include all of the 'bailouts" in 6 months than the US has spent in the past 30 years. We still have 2 wars-one spilling over into yet another country. N.Korean thumbs its nose at him on a daily basis. He makes no note of the recruiter who was killed by a homegrown terrorist ts of the Muslim kind like the ones in nNYC and now he is tossing Israel under the bus. Not to mention that he wants to close a prison which hoses dangerous people with no plan in place of what to do with them just as he wants funding for health care without any plan so no one knows what is being funded Think that is enough him a chance..Yes. the situation is SAD indeed

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.0 - Posts: 240)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 11:41 AM

I want to give any president a chance, but I don't want to give him a chance if he's going to continue to introduce new idiotic policies and continue the ones he's already implemented.

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 11:51 AM

Bigmama: I, too, was impressed by his words, and I believe it is high time that the Israeli occupation of Palestine end. I have been impressed by his words before -- only to be disappointed by his actions. I hope to see him actually implement policies that back-up the rhetoric of his speech.

allena
Allena  (Level: 255.4 - Posts: 1390)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 11:56 AM

We need to wait for the results of most of his plans. He has done very little that is good but has started a whole lot. Most of what he has started depends on borrowed money. He talks one way and does something else ... So, what's new? However, too many people actually believe him.

If the anthrax event happens, there are actually a lot of fools who will blame Bush. Until the media goes back to being the 4th estate, rather than Obama's cheering squad, it is doubtful we will get accurate assessments. Happily, most Amercans (about 70%) did not vote for him and can effect the next few elections.

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.0 - Posts: 240)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 12:14 PM

"and I believe it is high time that the Israeli occupation of Palestine end."

Again, I say, do you read history?

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 12:45 PM

Israel treats the Gaza Strip like a concentration camp. You would think if any "nation" knew better it would be the Israelis. The zionists have no rights to Palestine, they are primarily European Jews. Other than biblical claims of a "holy" land, no Jew has any right to Palestine. It's only a matter of time until they are "outpopulated" anyway.

ladyvol
Ladyvol  (Level: 205.3 - Posts: 5487)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 12:54 PM

The country of Israel and it's people are considered God's chosen people (it's in my Bible)...I'm wondering if the US turns its back on them or "throws them under the bus" if God will continue to bless the US. It's all there in Revelations if anyone wants to read about it. In fact, all through the Bible it states that the Jewish people are His chosen. After all Jesus was a Jew...and before anyone says anything I know that they turned their backs on him. They did not believe he was the Messiah...This is just my own personal views here so don't any one get their panties in a wad over this...
Vickie

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 1:06 PM

Beverly, we will see where the "nice" offensive in the Muslim world leads.

It's going to take a while for it to sink in over there.

I'm not optimistic, but it deserves a chance to work.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 1:16 PM

Andy, yes or no question. Do you think any of the nice words will make a bit of difference to the radical Muslims wherever they might come from? They are not all from the Arab Muslim group so though some use Irsrael/Palestine as a kind of justification most have no other reason than infidels must die. Linda

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 1:34 PM

Indeed, Fainodraino, I majored in history 35 years ago as an undergraduate, and have continued to read history ever since. Included in my reading are books by such Israeli historians as Benny Morris and Tom Segev, who recognize an occupation when they see one. Just recently finished Israeli Neve Gordon's book, "Israel's Occupation", published by the University of California Press in 2008, and detailing the phases of the Israeli Occupation and the methods of control employed by Israel in these different phases.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 117.7 - Posts: 1745)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 1:48 PM

As I said in earlier thread I am pro Israel. As far as chosen people that is just silly to follow the book of Revelations in the Bible in determining 20th century problems. Israel does have a homeland but I think they should give back the gaza strip and go back to the pre 1948 lines. That would definitely ease the tension in that part of the world. As far as Obama and the policies he is trying to implement we have to wait and see how the financial markets rebound. The recession seems to be slowing, I can see signs in the area I live in. Although all the reduced hours and salary reduction I think is one way corporations are once again profiting from hard earned labor.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 2:09 PM

You don't suppose the reduced hours and layoffs are a result that people have cut back on spending do you, Bobo. If companies are not making money or are forced out of business like the Chrysler and GM dealerships were it is probably not about greed at the expense the noble of the working man/woman. Just seems to make sense... Walmart is still flourishing but then they practically chain the folks to the cash registers...

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 117.7 - Posts: 1745)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 2:11 PM

Yeah talk about forced labor camps, did you ever see a "happy" Walmart employee.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 2:18 PM

"Chosen people"? God has favorites? Scary.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 2:18 PM


bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 2:42 PM

< You both say it's going to take a while for it to sink in over there. What about in sinking into you two? The cycle needs to be broken.<<

Also, Linda when you speak of the Chicago area or Dearborn, Mi., if that’s the case Florida has a large percentage of Native America the same as the indigenous Native American peoples in all of the United States. So let's give the lands back to them too. While at it don't forget, the other colonized lands in other parts of the world. Separatism isn't that great for a peaceful co-existence?

clevercloggs
<
<

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 2:50 PM


I apologize for the posts showing up multiple times. I don't know hat happened I hope it goes through this time as I want to finish my point
clevercloggs
<
<

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 2:52 PM

Are we being censored now? The last part of my post doesn't go through.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 3:11 PM

I am once again clueless as to your point, Beverely. I was trying to say speaking to the "Muslim World' makes no more sense than speaking to the "Catholic World' or the "Protestant World'. The "Muslim World' is not one country or even one region -all over the globe. Was trying to make the point that the Muslim community in the Chicago or Dearborn area don't much resemble the communities in the Gaza Strip. There is NO one Muslim World. There are different countries and continents with a degree of Muslims in them. My statement about the Native Americans having claim to the Chicago area was in reference to you saying the Palestinians were the people of the land or something similar.. It is a fact that the Native Americans pretty much got screwed in their deals with the government except for those who found their piece of land sat on oil. Did the Palestians also get screwed-perhaps but know Israel is a much better and reliable ally than Hamaas. EVERYTHING is about politics including with this man who you seem to believe transcends that- Linda

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 4:45 PM

Beverly, the "Internet Czar" was most likely responsible. We just got another one-"Great Lakes Czar"-lost count. . Seems like a Tony Soprano approach-these people are appointed by ONE person have a whole lot of control over things including money and are accountable only to ONE person-might not bother you but bothers me...

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 4:58 PM

I never worry about being censured or censored, they can only block up the holes, the dam is still going to break.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 5:45 PM

Linda, Obama is trying to make it possible for the moderate Arab states to act differently. The Israel problem is often their excuse for siding with the more extreme elements over there.

Just as Iraq was a bold gamble to bring democracy to the Arab world, this also is a bold gamble.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 6:48 PM

You confirmed my point, Andy. He was talking to the "Arab World" not The "Muslim World" bold move or not it won't mean s--- to the guys that want to kill the Infidel for no other purpose than that. You did not give me a yes or no answer as to whether his nice words make one bit of difference to them. Perhaps you think the "Moderate"Arab countries can dissuade them. I posted the link of what Saudi kids are still being taught in school - believe a few of the 9/11 guys came from that "moderate" Arab country. All of that happened before Iraq, torture/enhanced interrogation or Gitmo too. Perhaps the first Bush is responsible or surely Clinton for Rendition or maybe it goes back decades like the Israel/Palestine like Saudi Arabia gives a damn abut how the folks in Palestine live or exist thing. It was lawyer talk trying to identify with the folks he was addressing. some call it moral equivocation but who am I to know. Easiest way to get applause anywhere in the world is to attack the policies of the US. he received lots of applause- Linda Guess you are fine wth the Israel under the us thing, huh?

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 6:57 PM

Perhaps he simply overlooked this guy on some kind of anniversary http://www.ibiblio.org/sullivan/bios/Sadat-bio.htmlwhile he was speaking in Cairo. Then there is the other possibility that he deliberately omitted mention because it would illustrate that Israel is willing to make peace - Linda

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 6:59 PM

Linda, I can't tell you what's going to happen.

I think his approach deserves a chance. I do regret the sucking up today with all the factual errors.

The US one of the largest Muslim nations in the world ????

Indonesia anybody? Pakistan? Even India must have at least 100 million. Iran, Iraq . . .

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 7:10 PM

This is the funny part. Some of the Arab countries are delighted that an American President cited the Koran but they are criticizing him for not having a plan nor a timetablea plan-know how they feel

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.0 - Posts: 240)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 7:26 PM

"That would definitely ease the tension in that part of the world."

do you seriously think that going back to pre-48 lines is going to ease tensions? Get real.

TSK, despite your obvious knowledge of history, you need to go back a little further in time to get my point.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 9:10 PM

Yes, the Jews are God's chosen people. But that choosing doesn't mean what you might think it does, that God seemingly unfairly favors one over another.

The Jews are God's chosen people because God chose the lineage of Abraham to bear the Christ. Jesus, King of the Jews, has ancestrage through his mother, Mary, which can be traced directly back to Judah, great-grandson of Abraham. Jesus is called "The Lion of Judah."

The land was given to Jews by God originally. If people choose to not believe in God, that sure makes this fact hard to accept. The Jews were stolen/driven from their land, taken into slavery, several times.

I believe there is absolutely nothing Israel can do to make Palestinians happy but lie down and die, and even then I don't think they'd be happy. There will never be peace there. That is not the nature of the area, with or without the Israelis. Israel just gives them a common enemy on which to focus again (1948 to present this latest time).

After the holocaust, here is what happened if you wish to brush up on your Shakesp...I mean, your Israel history:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Guide+to+the+Peace+Process/Declaration+of+Establishment+of+State+of+Israel.htm
(which in part says

"THE DECLARATION OF THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL
May 14, 1948
On May 14, 1948, on the day in which the British Mandate over a Palestine expired, the Jewish People's Council gathered at the Tel Aviv Museum, and approved the following proclamation, declaring the establishment of the State of Israel. The new state was recognized that night by the United States and three days later by the USSR.

"ERETZ-ISRAEL [(Hebrew) - the Land of Israel, Palestine] was the birthplace of the Jewish people. Here their spiritual, religious and political identity was shaped. Here they first attained to statehood, created cultural values of national and universal significance and gave to the world the eternal Book of Books.

"After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people kept faith with it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom."

And back to me, just for the record: God does say in the Bible to pray for the peace of Jerusalem. One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is peace. Christians are instructed to wear the garments of the armor of Christ, one of which is "Shod my feet with the Gospel of Peace."

And for those who just think all the Bible/God/Jesus teaching is so much hooey, God doesn't say in the Bible that non-believers have to do a bloomin' thing. You have free choice.

BUT - for believers, the instruction is full of hope if WE do some work:

2 Chronicles 7:14 says: "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."


sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 9:26 PM

I'm sorry jank, but if there might be a god, in my thinking, it would be concerned with more important things, and would not stir up problems between folks.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 9:34 PM

I guess I would just have to add, then, that if there is a God, then there is a satan - the enemy who is the one who really stirs up the problems. He doesn't seem to get the blame, though. And he's just laughing his a** off for it, too.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 117.7 - Posts: 1745)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 10:46 PM

I admire you Jan in there is poetry and beauty in all the books of the Bible. I don't however think following the words for Jews 2,000 years ago to the letter. They have since that time spread all over the continents, and this territory they are on was given them after World War 2 in part because they were refugees. They were not wanted in many countries in Europe. The Bible does not say go Palestinians and let Israel have all the land. Show me that scripture. Once again and I did read your post this time. Most of the time it is so Biblical in nature that I don't. Once again I feel I am in Sunday school. If I want a Bible lesson, I will read the Bible. Which I probably should do more often. It is not appropriate however for a modern discussion of politics. Your idealogy gets in the way of rational facts in your posts. I know I am not always posting blogs, but I don't quote scripture either.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 10:55 PM

Sweety, the title of the thread says Christians, Muslims, and faith. Many don't read the Bible to know where Christians and faith come into the subject. It's just one post and it's informative. Christians get all our beliefs on faith from the Bible, and people ask questions. I just answer them from the Christian perspective. Several threads have to do with Christianity, and that opens the discussion to Biblical perspective. I just throw in what I know for anyone interested. You're clearly not, but that doesn't mean the comments aren't appropriate according to the thread title.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 10:58 PM

Hi Janice
A biblical claim of a “holy” land, (Israel) is not the land of the Russians, Polish, or Germans before or after 1948. I am referring to an ethnic group of human beings whose members identify with each other, through a very common cultural heritage not assumption. That would be the occupiers of Palestine due to the League of Nations. In other words long before Shakespeare or antiquity; Jewish ancestry through DNA samples from Bantu (African), Yemeni (Arab), and Sephardic Jews and Azhkenazi Jews proved trough DNA their Jewish linage.
Russians, Polish, or Germans converted therefore it's not in their DNA. Just because it was written in the bible Israel belongs to them does not mean it's correct. Men wrote the bible; not some one in the clouds. There isn't any case in my knowledge of any HUMAN Female giving birth without a fertilized egg. Those claiming it's in the bible are not being intelligent or scientific.
It's time for them, in my opinion to return to their homeland rather than encroach upon others. Yes, I feel their pains; I will not quote Mel Gibson; but the Middle East would be a lot more stable if these ethnic groups be more pliable to their problem. They can go home; and I don't mean Israel.
Russia in the 12th century is said to have adopted Judaism instead of Christianity or Islam, by their leaders' preference I’ll get the author of the book and give it to you later.


jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Thu, 4th Jun '09 11:32 PM

Speaking of people who just aren't intelligent about the state of Israel and the land belonging to them, I give you...

Einstein's own writings on the subject:

“Long before the emergence of Hitler I made the cause of Zionism mine because through it I saw a means of correcting a flagrant wrong.” (Letter to Jawaharlal Nehru, Prime Minister of India, June 13, 1947)

“The Jewish people alone has for centuries been in the anomalous position of being victimized and hounded as a people, though bereft of all the rights and protections which even the smallest people normally has...Zionism offered the means of ending this discrimination. Through the return to the land to which they were bound by close historic ties...Jews sought to abolish their pariah status among peoples.” (Letter to Jawaharlal Nehru, Prime Minister of India, June 13, 1947)

“Can Jewish need, no matter how acute, be met without the infringement of the vital rights of others? My answer is in the affirmative. One of the most extraordinary features of the Jewish rebuilding of Palestine is that the influx of Jewish pioneers has resulted not in the displacement and impoverishment of the local Arab population, but in its phenomenal increase and greater prosperity.” (Letter to Jawaharlal Nehru, Prime Minister of India, June 13, 1947)


bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 7:17 AM

Janice

Thanks for agreeing with me this about scientific axioms. But, where was Einstein born, was it not Germany? Besides, my point is their presence should be diminished; gives even more logic to my point according to your quote. The Jewish are prospering and the Palestinians are languishing. They should return to their ancestral homes now after nearly 6 decades of prospering, in my opinion.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 7:19 AM

"influx of Jewish pioneers has resulted not in the displacement and impoverishment of the local Arab population, but in its phenomenal increase and greater prosperity.”

Guess I don't understand your point. Einstein said Jews being in Israel and the area has increased ARABS' increase and prosperity.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 7:33 AM

The Palestinians invest in terrorism, Beverly.

They do not develop their economy.

It's no one's fault but their own.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 7:54 AM

Andy,
There you go again increasing polarization; not all Palestinians are EXTREMISTS (the word you President wants to use) neither all Jewish people. So let's watch our words like our President said. We need to build bridges not burn them; agree?


tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 8:03 AM

1. Israeli policies -- abetted by the US -- have literally made it impossible for the Palestinians to develop their economy. This has been documented by many scholars -- including Israeli scholars -- including in at least one of the books I mentioned earlier in this thread, Neve Gordon's "Israel's Ocuupation". Andy's comment is the type of unsupported generalized assertion offered without a source that is so typical of his style of argumentation.

2. While I don't doubt for a moment thousands of years of conflict between Jews and non-Jews in the area now called Israel and /or Palestine, Israel as a state has since 1967 occupied territory beyond its internationally recognized borders, and it should be obvious that setting up an apartheid like regime in the occupied territories and denying the Palestinians legitimate right of self-determination will not result in peace. Since I seriously doubt the existence of a creator -- who as described in any of the western theologies defies natural laws -- I don't base my views on policy by reference to ancient texts that some contend show that God gave the land of Israel/Palestine to the Jews.


smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 8:18 AM

Well, he didn't actually "give" it to them. He showed it to them and told them to slaughter every living thing there and take it.

Could be that's where all the trouble started. Not the event itself, but the underlying non-supernatural history it's based on of bloody battles and genocidal wars.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 9:21 AM

The title of Beverly's thread addressed Christians, Muslims and Faith. Looks like Jews are shark bait....

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.0 - Posts: 240)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 9:42 AM

So much I could say, but I'll just ask this question in response to some of the posts. This is a yes or no question, so elaboration isn't really needed...

Do you think Jesus was a liar?

Yes or no.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 11:24 AM


Fainodraino

No, a little out there out though talking about his Father. But, Judas probably would have said he was since he thought Jesus was a politician prior to Jesus' being nailed to the cross; that too has been debunked. My point is I believe Jesus existed but, I know he didn't rise from the dead and ascend in the clouds. No human being can levitate!

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 11:27 AM

Linda
Don't be so selfish. Unless you're a tax evader; you really would have no choice but to complain. Look on the bright side.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 11:52 AM

Sorry, Bev, you are too cryptic for me. You make all, of these statements and I don;t get your point....

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 12:02 PM

I meant you have no choice in the matter. They will get your money Nothing is certain except death and taxes. You should have a heart sometimes. I want you to be happy

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 12:10 PM

Seems a whole lot of people are getting the benefit of my hard work....

maurlin
Maurlin  (Level: 213.3 - Posts: 2671)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 12:20 PM

As an American and a Jew, I am quite sickened, dismayed, disgusted, and angry with the tone of this chat. It has nothing to do with your right to free speech or your ability to express your thoughts here. It is that you actually have those thoughts at all, and that you fervently believe them. If others believe the way quite a number of those who replied do believe, I fear for the survival of the State of Israel. I was a fervent Obama supporter, even though I was told he was really a Muslim. I didn't believe it until now. I'm scared for all of us.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 117.7 - Posts: 1745)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 12:39 PM

If I am not mistaken he is certainly not a Muslim. I can sympathize with not wanting to have a sensitive topic debated on Salty Dog. I had a topic discussed here that I took very personally and was then a target of very personal attacks. I would never say I thought Israel should not exist I hope you did not get that impression from any of my posts. I think it is Obama's detractors who are trying to pull the religion card. Even if he was a Muslim which he isn't, why would it matter. He would have never been elected had he been a Muslim.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 117.7 - Posts: 1745)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 12:39 PM

If I am not mistaken he is certainly not a Muslim. I can sympathize with not wanting to have a sensitive topic debated on Salty Dog. I had a topic discussed here that I took very personally and was then a target of very personal attacks. I would never say I thought Israel should not exist I hope you did not get that impression from any of my posts. I think it is Obama's detractors who are trying to pull the religion card. Even if he was a Muslim which he isn't, why would it matter. He would have never been elected had he been a Muslim.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 12:49 PM

Tell me Maurlin, i am neither an American nor a Jew, is it OK for me to have sympathy with the Palestinian cause ?

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 12:50 PM

Bobo, he threw Israel under the bus and many think it is past time. I doubt the man has any firm religious convictions but if he has it favors being a Muslim and that like Maurlin said is a dangerous thing for not only Israel but all of us- Linda-

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 117.7 - Posts: 1745)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 12:53 PM

Linda he is not a Muslim and I am not scared. Maybe the speech he made he is trying to reach out a hand to the Muslim world. They are not all terriorists. I don't think he is throwing Israel under the bus lets not twist this into another rampage against Obama. You certainly don't need any more ammunition.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 1:04 PM

Well, he certainly wasn't speaking to or FOR me. I have no apologies to make and resent his implication that the US overreacted to 9/11. I always liked the saying i "If it quacks like a duck, it must be a duck."

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 1:14 PM

Where did he say we overreacted to 9/11?

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 1:18 PM

Look at his speech if not implicit implied.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 1:29 PM

Which words imply it?

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 1:36 PM


Maurlin
The last thing I want to do is offend you of all people. As a matter of fact I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about occupation. I would like to know in all sincerity, will you still support our President now that he is talking about not giving money to Israel?

As I stated before I am an African American who is offended on a daily basis because I can't hide the color of my skin. So I know how you must be feeling at that this. For that reason i understand your pain and I'm truly sorry. I don't mean to insult you or anyone. I just want to express what I think is occupation of a group of people who constantly cross borders. What behooves me at times is how some people can't see the problem. Nantayaha is why too conservative. If I use the analogy of someone consistently breaking into your house knowing this is illegal; will you understand my sympathy for the Palestinians?

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 1:41 PM

I'll find it ,Smoke. This is a blog i guess but an interesting view of his speechhttp://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026426.php have to take a break before i search the actual speech as it makes me rather ill-Linda

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 1:45 PM

That's a deal-breaker for me, Beverly. In fact we are committed to giving money annually to both Egypt and Israel.

As for whether an Israel government is "too conservative," the Palestinians have a big say in this. The Israeli electorate just reacts.

In 2000 Netanyahu was long gone and Ehud Barak was negotiating peace. Arafat for no good reason walked away from the peace table and unleashed a wave of terrorism. That offensive literally crippled the peace-negotiating Labor Party. In came Sharon and Israel has been between center-right and right ever since.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 1:45 PM

I have the whole speech printed out. Just wondering what words gave you that implication.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 1:56 PM

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/06/05/david-frum-on-obama-in-egypt-official-assent-for-traditionalist-islam.aspx again a blog but it is referenced here as well as a view of the inappropriate stance he took as an impartial moderator-thought he was the US president. not that you'll read it-Linda

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 2:29 PM

I read it. It only mentions 9/11 once, and in Obama's words.

"I am aware that some question or justify the events of 9/11. But let us be clear: Al-Qaeda killed nearly 3,000 people on that day. The victims were innocent men, women and children from America and many other nations who had done nothing to harm anybody. And yet al-Qaeda chose to ruthlessly murder these people, claimed credit for the attack and even now states their determination to kill on a massive scale. They have affiliates in many countries and are trying to expand their reach. These are not opinions to be debated; these are facts to be dealt with."

That's the only mention of 9/11 I see.

I can't find where the blog implies that he implied it. Can you give me a quote from the blog that backs up the statement that he implied we overreacted to 9/11?

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 2:36 PM

That is pretty much it, Smoke, and sorry but we all don't see things the same way as you do...most likely you did not take time to read the other blog or that one in its entirety either -Linda

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 2:45 PM

Sorry, Linda, I'm not going to spend my day poring over conservative blogs trying to figure out where you got that idea. I thought you knew and could tell me what you based the statement on. If "that's pretty much it" please tell me in little simple words so I can understand, what did he say (or what did the blog say he said) that implied this to you.

If you can't, just say you can't, it's okay.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 117.7 - Posts: 1745)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 2:49 PM

I read the blog also and I don't see any reference by Obama that we overreacted to 9/11. If anything he was justifying the significance of our reaction in recanting the American death toll and the horror of the terriorist act. I see the publication clearly has an Anti-Obama tone.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 2:50 PM

You repeated his exact woirds in your prior post the very informative first blog will not open on eitherr of my browsers. I am stilll not good at copying exact words but working on it. Don't really expect you wil ever consider anyone's opinion if it does not agree with yours...

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 2:52 PM

Well, I'm sorry you're under than misimpression of me.

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.0 - Posts: 240)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 2:54 PM

"No, a little out there out though talking about his Father. But, Judas probably would have said he was since he thought Jesus was a politician prior to Jesus' being nailed to the cross; that too has been debunked. My point is I believe Jesus existed but, I know he didn't rise from the dead and ascend in the clouds. No human being can levitate!"

Ok, so despite the extra-Biblical evidence that he was seen after his death, you still don't WANT to admit it. Fine. How do you explain the explosion of the 1st century church? There would have been no reason for the Christians to grow exponentially unless there was actually some truth to what Jesus said, that he would come back to life.

I know why people don't believe, but it's still hard for me to understand.



fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.0 - Posts: 240)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 2:56 PM

"As I stated before I am an African American who is offended on a daily basis because I can't hide the color of my skin."

Why are offended on a daily basis? Could you give me some reasons? I think I know what you'll say, but I want to hear it from you.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 117.7 - Posts: 1745)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 2:57 PM

I am not touching that one with a ten foot pole.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 3:02 PM

Good call.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 3:07 PM

http://beltwayblips.dailyradar.com/video/krauthammer_on_obama_s_cairo_speech/ this i believe captures the essence ogf the sppech as viewed by a very intelligent man

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 117.7 - Posts: 1745)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 3:13 PM

Again Fox News and no matter how intelligent a man, he makes no reference to 9/11.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 3:14 PM

I'm not watching or reading anymore rightwing commentators. If you can't tell me where YOU thought he implied overreaction, forget it.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 3:22 PM

Ears plugged la la la right?? Yes, forget it!!

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 3:27 PM

Is there something else I can do? I've asked several times and haven't heard an answer, and my ears are not plugged.

It may interest you, perhaps only surprise you to know I watched O'Reilly last night to get the right's reaction to the speech. It wasn't easy and it put me off my dinner, but I did it. I do listen to both sides. I occasionally listen to Limbaugh for half and hour or so, I even watch the 700 Club news, because I think it's important to hear all sides.

Then I make up my own mind.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 117.7 - Posts: 1745)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 3:56 PM

You watch Rush Limbaugh wow that would make me sick. Pat Robertson too I am amazed I don't think I have ever heard anything but sheer propaganda from the 700 club. I don't see the President as apologizing I think it is more of letting Muslim world know his administration will be different than Bush. If that is seen as "soft" by his critics so be it. I am far more interested in US economy than foreign affairs and the Iraqi War.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 4:15 PM

Well, I think it might be a WISE decision to pay a bit of attention to foreign affairs...

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 5th Jun '09 5:10 PM

Not even I could listen to Rush over the last ten years, but I might try it again when I am driving in the US in July. He can't be shilling for the Republicans today because they offer nothing to examine. It's just that you have to do so much filtering for an occasional worthy insight.

The 700 Club? Uh I don't think so!

And, Donna, I just can't imagine you watching that.

But maybe you're trying to get inside someone else's head.


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