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caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Tue, 9th Jun '09 7:45 PM

THIS REALLY MAKES SENSE- WARNING POLTICAL TOPIC

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iVARzkVd0-1qWon_qf_ZAngIrTrQD98N9G1G2 Why doesn't he just say he needs more time??? I really don't get consider this ridiculous option to fulfill an unwise (MO) campaign promise

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Wed, 10th Jun '09 12:21 AM

Well of course this problem came about because of the human rights abuses perpetrated by the previous criminal misadministration. It is left to Obama's government to try and put the matter right. I am well aware that there is a section of the US population that would prefer A? Kill 'em all and let "god" sort them out. Or B/, Leave them where they are, but they are not true options. So assuming they can't go back to their own countries, what's your solution ? Britain have taken our detainees back, i have met two of them, unfortunately this not an option for all of the criminally detained inmates.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Wed, 10th Jun '09 1:07 AM

You are not going to like my answer so get ready. I would NEVER have promised to close Gitmo as he did or GW wanted to do. Believe the result of this, soldiers when faced with what they perceive is the enemy will shoot them dead on the spot-but then that would make sense to me. It would also make sense to me a to do a bit of old-fashioned on the spot American Indian "torture" if I thought they had information that would help us that is before I shot them dead. So you see I would not have this problem and bet you are REALLY glad it is not my call

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Wed, 10th Jun '09 1:41 AM

I don't think "really glad" quite covers it. If i had a god i'd thank it for Obama, if ever a people needed somebody like him it's your race. I've always thought it strange that those people who see themselves as the most patriotic, i'd call it jingoistic, are those that do most to disgrace their nations. Gitmo shouldn't be closed of course, because it should never have been opened.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Wed, 10th Jun '09 3:48 AM

Even VP Biden remarked that Obama opened a real can of worms. Obama's efforts run counter to the wishes of a majority of Americans, and the wisdom of the Bush administration in settling these terrorists in the no-man's land of Guantanamo grows more obvious with every effort the Obama administration makes to move them.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Wed, 10th Jun '09 5:45 AM

Many people of the same skin color as myself see that by the fuss about closing Gitmo has pretty much sets it up as a no brainer that terrorists wiill less likely to come off the battlefield alive. There are those of my color that fall all over themselves in shame over our country. as they do for their color. Perhaps they have forgotten 9/11. I haven't. Told you I come from a background of law enforcement ands although not religious ot biblical in my references not vey sory for the folks like this guy.http://www.jacksonfreepress.com/index.php/site/comments/arkansas_shooter_pleads_not_guilty_after_confession_060209/ If I had caught Mcvey in the act would have killed him on the spot too-what a waste of time and money. Sorry my last source was a blog but could not immediately find a mainstraim source covering it. What will you bet though that a high-priced profile attorney will come out of the woodwork and defend him also on my dime? The young soldier recruiter's death seemed no big deal to anyone except his family and community Jus MO. I am all; for getting out of the mideast and anywheree else if at the same time we quit usinfg=g ny dime to send them "humanitarian" help along with it. Linda

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Wed, 10th Jun '09 6:43 AM

Whoa whoa WHOA! Cloggs - you said "Britain have taken our detainees back, i have met two of them." YOU have met TWO of THEM?

Who are you?

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Wed, 10th Jun '09 7:12 AM

Don't want this thread to become a bash on attorneys as like TSK and greatly respect Maurlin. However, perhaps someone might point out-I did but no one thought it important-that attorneys got the Whacko released on "TECHNICALITY" in another case involving weapons long before he ever joined any church and killed Dr. Tiller. Who do you think real money makers are in all of these bankruptcies? who made money in the OJ fiasco or these trials of the Gitmo guys? One way to reduce health care cost would be to eliminate the right to sue for malpractice-think/. No, the way to lower health care costs is to screw the doctors and nurses as everyone knows they make way too much money. Perhaps the "Pay Czar" will cap attorney fees-probably not..

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Wed, 10th Jun '09 9:09 AM

Jank0614
Whoa whoa WHOA! Cloggs - you said "Britain have taken our detainees back, i have met two of them." YOU have met TWO of THEM?

Who are you?

Oh bugger you caught me out, i'm really Osama bin Laden. What do you mean "Who am i ?" Just an ordinary guy who's a member of Stop The War Coalition Moazzam Begg in particular has been been met by tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of people, he even appeared in the Oscar winning "Taxi To The Dark Side". Earlier thid year he toured Britain with a former Gitmo guard Christopher Arendt. Begg also has a position within Amnesty International. He is a polite, intelligent and articulate man who should be paid millions in compensation.



collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Wed, 10th Jun '09 9:14 AM

Oh, so you met two of the former detainees who have not returned to terrorism then.

Or have they?

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Wed, 10th Jun '09 9:40 AM

Funny never heard of that movie or the guy, Dave. What do you think of Obama putting the guy who is in charge- special operations man- of things in Afghanistan ? Personally think it a wise move but you do know that 'special ops' folks job is to identify the enemy and ELIMINATE them-see fate of Somalia pirates and navy SEALS. The SEALS are special ops guys. The only survivng pirate -"terrorist" was on the US ship trying to make a deal

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Wed, 10th Jun '09 9:49 AM


barnierubble
Barnierubble  (Level: 93.9 - Posts: 637)
Wed, 10th Jun '09 11:57 AM

Why do some of you actually try to make out you are Christians, yet want to operate a shoot to kill, innocent or not, policy.
I am asking you Linda?

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Wed, 10th Jun '09 12:18 PM

1. I agree that it is ridiculous to give Palau $200 million to take the wrongfully detained Uighurs because there is NO evidence that they have committed acts of violence against the U.S. or its citizens, which is why they were cleared for release. The U.S. should permit the Uighurs to settle in the U.S. I would have no problem having the Uighurs settle in my home city, although I understand that there is a Uighur community in Washington, D.C., where there has at least been some talk of releasing the Uighurs.

2. A nation that holds people indefinitely without charge or trial has no moral authority to lecture other governments around the world. I was extremely disappointed to learn that Obama intends to hold any of the detainees indefinitely without trials. I would like to know why the rightwing regulars on this site are so quick to believe the government's claims that the detainees slated for indefinite preventative detention are the "worst of the worst", when, in general, they are highly skeptical of the federal govenment and frequently denounce the honesty of the administration. Again, many, many of the detainees were not captured by U.S. forces or, indeed, even captured at the site of a battle. Instead, many of the detainees were basically sold by local warlords to the Americans.

3. I condemn the implication that because Dave has spoken to two of the alleged terrorists, he, himself, should be the object of suspicion as a potential terrorist. This is the worst kind of "guilt by association" reasoning. Again, several of the rightwingers have denounced attempts to associate Dr. Tiller's murderer with the Right to Life movement, and specific organizations, such as Operation Rescue, which really does have connections with Roeder basically because it imputes guilt to people because of their association with a cause and/or Roeder. Yet, there is a willingness to suggest Dave is some nefarious character because he talked to a former Gitmo detainee.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Wed, 10th Jun '09 12:30 PM

Actually, Barnie, I am not religious and never claimed that I was. Just believe if someone wishes us harm and there is no place to put them when captured not many options left but to kill them- the "Greater Good" you see. Believe Obama sees this by putting the special ops man as head in Afghanistan-special ops target and kill. Clinton and probably some before him sent them to Egypt which I don't particularly like either. Like up-front people not someone else doing your dirty work. Obama made a promise and putting these guys on an Island in the Pacific which is basically supported by us in tourism is ludicrous. Saying they taking them out of patriotism sounds good but why the huge sum of money then? It is all about politics. Haven't a clue if these Chinese guys are dangerous or not but know the lawmakers believe the people who vote for or against them don't want them here. Don't believe Spain does either-

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Wed, 10th Jun '09 12:43 PM

TSK in my thinking it is whether we view the Gitmo guys as a law enforcement issue or war detainees. Obama has boxed himself in by by refusing t say there is a "war on terror". I rather think the 9/11 attacks were acts of war but agree with you if he is approaching it as a law enforcement issue- as Clinton did hence sending folks to Egypt-one cannot detain folks indefinitely without cause-Linda

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Wed, 10th Jun '09 2:16 PM

I think the only humane thing to do would be to either give them a trial or set them free. Even the Nazi War Criminals were given a trial. I think the US if they release them should offer them asylum in this country since we are the ones who detained them in the first place. What difference does it make if they are in your community. I would not mind them being in my community. It is hard for me to believe those that are left in Gitmo are terriorists any longer, I sometimes think the real terriorists are on Salty Dog. I mean really are we supposed to march them out and execute them with or without blindfolds?

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Wed, 10th Jun '09 2:30 PM

Speaking of meeting terrorists Andy, did you ever meet Bush ?

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Wed, 10th Jun '09 2:37 PM

If it is a law enforcement matter they have to be brought to trial or if not enough evidence to bring them to trial simply released. If they are considered prisoners of war they can be held indefinitely-Obama has boxed himself in by his decision to deal with them it as a law enforcement issue at the same time not bringing them to trial-obviously not enough evidence- or releasing them. That is politically unpopular hence this island ruse

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Wed, 10th Jun '09 3:18 PM

That's right clogs you tell'em. Maybe Andy is Osama bin Laden (just kidding Andy). I couldn't resist it Andy. Your disdain for the current administration is what tempted me. I hope you don't mind.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Wed, 10th Jun '09 3:47 PM

Whoa whoa WHOA, TSK!

1. The Uighurs are a special case and not typical of the Guantanamo detainees. They apparently trained with terrorists in Afghanistan. As such they would not be admissible to the USA. Moreover, I'm afraid their status would necessarily be tied up in negotiations with the Chinese on a whole host of issues.

2. Gee, I thought it was only the rightwing Bush admin that was illegally holding detainees. Now you have the most leftist admin in our history doing the same thing and essentially endorsing previous policy. Too funny. What's your argument now????

3. Apparently, TSK, you've been watching so much Keith Olbermann that you've picked up his bad habits. No one here implied that Dave should be the object of suspicion as a potential terrorist. In fact Jank and I both used the term "detainee." Congratulations, you have now made an Olbermann "leap of faith" yourself.



collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Wed, 10th Jun '09 3:56 PM

Beverly, I call em like I see em. I do not have disdain for the current administration.

I think they're on the wrong track, and I fear if they don't wise up, 1994 could recur.

They're still trying to implement their radical agenda whereas changed economic circumstances demand a different approach. They're lost in their own ideology. They need to get the economy fixed first. The negative signals about running up a monstrous deficit are appearing more frequently - from their own party, from China which would have to finance it, and from the economy itself.

I hope they start governing from the center soon. If they don't, someone may steal it from them.




caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Wed, 10th Jun '09 4:01 PM

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,525718,00.html Just know if I were Jewish I would be terribly frightened-getting hit from both sides. Next time I am inconvenienced or impatient by security somewhere I will keep in min d the "wing-nuts" from both sides- Linda

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Wed, 10th Jun '09 4:19 PM

Linda
That is a very good idea. this country is really changing

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Wed, 10th Jun '09 4:33 PM

Andy:

1. Yes, Andy, the Chinese do not want any country to take the Uighurs. In fact, the Chinese want the Uighurs returned to China, where they will surely be persecuted. My opinion is that China should not be accommodated on the question of the Uighurs' release and they should be allowed to settle in the U.S.

2. Andy, I have never claimed the Obama administration is "leftist"; it most certainly is not. Obama has continued all too many of the policies I opposed when Bush was president. As I have stated on several occasions, Obama is a cautious centrist, but, then, you characterize yourself as a "moderate", i.e., a centrist, so I personally consider your idea of the political spectrum rather skewed. Moreover, as I have stated several times in the past, I did not vote for Obama even though I considered him to be preferable to McCain, because I believed his administration would be no further "left" than that of the beloved-by-Democrats, Bill Clinton, who ran the country Republican-Lite. So far, I think my judgment on Obama has been fairly accurate. He occasionally throws the left a bone in his rhetoric, but his policies on the Gitmo detainees, among other things, are remarkable primarily for how little they differ from those of Bush.

3. I think I fairly characterized the gist of Jank's post, but I'm glad to learn Andy that you finally accept that being a Gitmo detainee does not necessarily mean one is a terrorist. That, of course, is why trials should be conducted so that tne innocent among the detainees are held forever. I highly recommend the following lengthy piece on the history of the use of preventative indefinite detention by the United States, and the current plan to use the same at this address: http://www.counterpunch.org/vanbergen06102009.html. (Some day I'm going to figure out how to paste in actual links like many of you do.)


tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Wed, 10th Jun '09 4:34 PM

I guess I did figure out how to paste an actual link.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Wed, 10th Jun '09 4:52 PM

Once more with feeling as you try to change about three subjects, TSK

1. The Uighurs are a special case and not typical of the Guantanamo detainees. They apparently trained with terrorists in Afghanistan. As such they would not be admissible to the USA. Moreover, I'm afraid their status would necessarily be tied up in negotiations with the Chinese on a whole host of issues.

2. Whether you agree or not, the Obama admin is the most leftist admin in our history and it is doing the same thing as thing as the Bushies - essentially endorsing previous policy. Oh, they'd like to do something else, but they have suddenly realized how dangerous most of these detainees are. I still haven't heard your new argument.

3. Congratulations once again on your Olbermann "leap of faith." No one implied that Dave was meeting with terrorists. It was rather, "Who are you that you are meeting with former Guantamo detainees?"


collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Wed, 10th Jun '09 5:53 PM

FYI, TSK

The Obama administration makes no secret of its running dialog with the far left organization MoveOn.org. They do run into trouble trying to satisfy these extremists, but they continue to try.

In my lifetime I can't remember an administration anywhere near as patronizing of their extremist supporters as this one.

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Wed, 10th Jun '09 6:10 PM

Andy: This is another point of disagreement. While MoveOn.org is a liberal organization of the Left, it is hardly "far left" or "extremist". What, specifically, has Obama done to cause you to believe he has fallen sway to these "far left extremists"? Like Clinton, he does little of substance for the issues of import to his Left constituency, probably on the theory that the Left -- such as it is in the States -- will vote for him anyway because there is no viable alternative. I, for one, decided not to vote for Obama because of my belief, which I think is correct, to date, that while he paid some lip service to left issues, he would ultimately not fight for them, and would far to often pursue Clinton-like policies. I had really hoped, however, that he'd move beyond the Bush "security" policies.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Wed, 10th Jun '09 9:06 PM

I highly resent you implying anything I meant other than asking who Cloggs is. It never even crossed my mind Cloggs would be a terrorist. When I saw he wrote he had met them, I was wondering if he is now a government official of some kind.

I'm sad you hate my beliefs so much that you would make such an implication about me out of 3 words.

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Wed, 10th Jun '09 9:45 PM

Jank:

Although he can speak for himself, Dave (Clevercloggs) apparently believed your post implied exactly what I did. Here is part of what he said: "Oh bugger you caught me out, I'm really Osama bin Laden." If you say you that is not what you intended, I'll take you at your word. Particularly considering that you accused me of being a drug user based solely on my opposition to drug prohibition, I think the conclusion I drew about the implication of your post was entirely justified.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Wed, 10th Jun '09 9:49 PM

Which proves my point. When I mean something negative, I come out and say it.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 1:18 AM

For the record, i wouldn't lose any sleep if i was accused of being Tony Blair and Osama Bin Laden on the same day. I filled in a profile when i got here, and it didn't even occur to me to lie on it. I'm a semi retired builder who's spent much of the last twenty years buying up old houses, renovating them, and then selling them for a meagre profit. I'm a master builder and i enjoyed my work, once i got sober, ill health and the recession in the housing market persuaded me to slow things down a bit.
Now i have more time i like to spend it furthering my knowledge of secularism and politics. I also work voluntarily as a counceller and out reach worker in a detox. The only "government" i would ever work for would be a socialist government, and there's not one of those to be found anywhere around here...Blair saw to that. The greatest compliment i have ever been paid was when a civil rights lawyer called me "an organic socialist". I learned my politics on the building site and on the factory floor, not out of a book.Enough about me, time for breckie.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 4:02 AM

TSK, MoveOn.org is hardly "far left" or "extremist" ?????

Once again you've been watching too much Keith Olbermann.

Policy decisions at this WH are run by their MoveOn.org supporters before they are approved - e.g., Iraq.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 4:08 AM

Uh, Dave, you went to meet two of those released from Guantanamo.

And what was your response to the 7/7/2005 London subway bombings?

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 4:24 AM

Collioure
Uh, Dave, you went to meet two of those released from Guantanamo.

And what was your response to the 7/7/2005 London subway bombings?
Well obviously, with my daughter running London pubs, i thought it was a spiffing idea. What do you think i thought of it genius ? What on Earth has me meeting two innocent men that were criminally incaserated got to do with it ? Because a group of US marines rapes a fourteen year old girl and then murderes her and her family should i be wary around you ?

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 5:10 AM

Oh, you went to meet the detainees you believed illegally imprisoned at Guantanamo, but you skipped the memorial services for the victims of the London subway bombings.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 5:51 AM

I'm a bit worried you didn't answer me Andy. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though, you seem harmless enough.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 5:57 AM

Dave, believe you should/would have been really upset about the Viet Nam.thing. Cannot call it as war as it too was illegal; not declared by Congress. but neither had anyone killed so many on our soil. Lots of people died though.- the majority of them under a Democratic president Same in that one too It was very difficult to sort out or identify the "good guy" Children blew themselves up killing soldiers with them. After a very long time many came to the conclusion that there was nothing noble or patriotic about it- I was among the protesters- Under pressure the US pulled out. After that the ones we had been fighting slaughtered people by the thousands but the people on the left didn't want to talk about that. That is when I no longer consider myself just a peaceful 'hippie' protesting an unjust war. Our soldiers who fought there were actually spit upon and took years to even get them any recognition for fighting for us whether they believed in the cause or not. Haven't paid much attention to Viet Nam lately and the press doesn't either. There were pictures and multiple claims of evil acts done by individual soldiers as well as the US in general. Just know that no Vietnamese came here and killed thousands of many innocent people just minding their own business and doing their job. The press certainly covered that. It just amazes me that most of the press does not want to talk about the Muslim convert who shot a soldier in Arkansas just doing his job with many future targets including religious groups on his list.. There is also a video of him admitting he did it and his reasons why.. Those reasons don't make sense to someone like me.The case in under wraps by the FBI now. The foiled terror plots of the NYC Muslim guys were clearly swept under the rug You wil, have to forgive my confusion-Linda

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 6:17 AM

No, Dave, I didn't answer your question, but you answered mine.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 6:43 AM

Dave, maybe this will answer some of your questions though. I happened upon it today

http://www.securityaffairs.org/issues/2009/16/peters.php

I haven't read it thoroughly yet but certain principles do resonate with me.

Peters notes that Islam is in a 5-century decline into "cultural darkness and civilizational impotence," that it is fighting for its life, that the Islam world " is composed of over a billion essentially powerless human beings, many of them humiliated and furiously jealous," and has not even "one world-class university of its own."

He notes that we should not shy away from the word IslamIST in describing terrorists of that persuasion so as to distinguish them from peaceful IslamIC peoples.

Finally Peters asserts that warfare will never be clean and that instead of agonizing over the mistakes of young soldiers, our greatest war crime would be to lose.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 7:58 AM

Excellent article, Andy, probably most won't take the time to read it though. Just hope Obama quits fumbling around on how he is going to deal with these guys-reading Miranda rights to Afghan prisoners-before another "event" like 9/11. Linda

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 9:09 AM

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that i carry a torch for Islam Andy, i don't. As far as i'm concerned they are as bad as the christians once were, and some of course still are. I reagard ALL revealed religions as useless at best, evil at worst. I don't like any cult that aims to keep the masses ignorant.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 9:29 AM

Dave, do you also believe that the radical Muslim who shot the army recruiter is being downplayed because we don't want to insult Muslims? It was certainly a big press deal when the religious "Wing-nut' shot Doctor Tiller or this latest "wing-nut" at the Holocaust DC museum. Both I might add most like would have been long dead in an Arab country as they had both done "win-nut' things before-certainly the last one would have been trying to make a citizen's arrest on the chairman of the Federal Reserve. Radical Islamists ar dangerous because they are willing to die for a better afterlife and we just don't mention the fact that they are doing this everywhere because we are going to change them by our open hand and tone--don't get it-

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 9:50 AM

I really couldn't say, it's a possibility. I do know that too many bend over backwards here (England) to accomodate Muslims. There are probably more muslims attending mosques here than there are christians attending church. It's like getting rid of measles and then catching mumps.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 9:58 AM

We have become a PC country hoping it is not at our own peril especially on the defense front but also the economic picture-Linda.

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 11:02 AM

Andy: Although I catch Olbermann a couple of times a week, he -- or any television/cable personality -- is a very small source of mine for information on politics. From your inability to point to anything Obama has done that demonstrates he has come under the sway of that "extremist" organization MoveOn.org, your assertion in this regard is just more bluster -- perhaps something you heard O'Reilly or Hannity say. You also imply that Olbermann is somehow the arbiter of what constitutes "far left" and/or "extremist" discourse. For the record, Olbermann is not "far left" by any stretch of the imagination. For somebody who is interested in a news source from a real "leftist" perspective, check out Amy Goodman's "Democracy Now", which I can get from two broadcasters on my satellite system -- Link TV and Free Speech TV (FSTV).

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 11:27 AM

Hi Tsk,
I am so glad that you are making mention that the President is not a liberal as the Right wants to depict. In fact, the President went so far as to denounce MoveON.org for an ad during the campaign. I predict with the political climate and the economy, and Gitmo, soon many will soon learn to refute the distortions that stupid puppet Sean insane Hannity, who by the way get his talking points from a teleprompter and management whispering in his earpiece, Rush Limpballs, Bill-O the arrogant clown, and others that demonize, distort and blame the President for his every challenge. Yet, their only talking points give credence to very little except more of the same. I don't agree with every thing our President says and does. I'm waiting to see what and how healht-care will pan out. That's why I've reserved my comments until I understand it better. One thing, I know for sure is those who oppose it and call it socialism fail to realize all democracies take care of their own. 60% 0f American bankruptcy is ludicrous in a country with this type of wealth. But, for those who do want the private pay, God forbid should they be denied insurance for a preexisting condition; because their out of pocket expenses will surely fall into it or so very close to it .

Once the hate mockers realize they’d being duped, because extreme right wing dings use scare and hate tactics, in addition to home grown terrorist acts of violence the President's ratings will continue to rise. When that stupid Sean insane Hannity runs polls asking if his viewers prefer a military coup and other right wing dings continue to demonize President Obama as a fascist, socialist, ant-Christ, and demand a copy of his birth certificate; people will tire of this murkiness and things will return to normalcy. At least I hope

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 11:52 AM

He SAID many things during the campaign . I am watching his hands not his lips

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 1:10 PM

You often carry a torch here for Islam, Dave.

You asked about a mistake made by our troops and I gave you an answer. In fact you been jumping up and down here for months about errors by American forces and supposed war crimes by Bush/Blair.

From author Peters, "The greatest war crime would be to lose."

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 1:13 PM

TSK, once more with feeling, the Obama administration openly admits that they maintain regular communications with MoveOn. MoveOn gets input at the policy level on big issues. The admin continues to try to satisfy them.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 2:13 PM

Collioure
You often carry a torch here for Islam, Dave.

You asked about a mistake made by our troops and I gave you an answer. In fact you been jumping up and down here for months about errors by American forces and supposed war crimes by Bush/Blair.

One, if you are going to call me a liar, grow some balls and come right out with it. I support the Palastinian people NOT islam.......now have you got that ?
Two. over here we call raping a minor and then killing her paedophilia and murder.......NOT a mistake. At times you just simply disgust me.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 2:22 PM

Linda
Maybe the Muslim shooting in Arkansas was swept under the rug because they're being breed here under your nose. After all Obama is a Muslim President, right. If you say yes, you're dead wrong. Guess again. Is he a socialist? Well, the answer is both choices are incorrect. You can't be Muslim and a socialist.
I mean this whole diatribe about your President is just getting so disproportionate.

I really think you should be more concerned about those hate groups and Sean Hannity (you know, the guy who gets his talking points from a teleprompter and management whispering in his earpiece), polling people to ask if his viewers would prefer a military coup. That stupid Sean Hannity is an extremist you need to really pay attention too. Hannity loves it when you say hateful things about. Have you heard his "Hannity Hate line". That is so perverted; sounds like he's a real freak. Now that's something I wouldn't waste my time calling.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 2:51 PM

Still don't get why the radical Muslim shooting of an army recruiter is not as big a media event as the "whacko' who killed Dr. Tiller. Don';t know what your obsession is with Hannity-personally don't care for his style often bordering on attacking personalities not issues-perhaps that is where you picked up your approach-

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 3:16 PM

Andy: Once again, you don't identify one policy that Obama has implemented because of MoveOn.org -- let alone a policy that is reasonably characterized as "far left" or "extremist". Empty words and bluster.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 3:31 PM

More than the Palestinians, Dave

Regarding mistakes in the war theatre because war never quite as cookie cutter clean as we would like . . .

"Finally Peters asserts that warfare will never be clean and that instead of agonizing over the mistakes of young soldiers, our greatest war crime would be to lose."

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 3:37 PM

Our current Iraq policy, TSK. Negotiated with MoveOn.

I am not going to have this dispute with you. Obama is clearly well to the left - he has taken over GM, he wants to control executive salaries, all kinds of tax proposals are jumping out of his WH at a time when we are heading into a DEPRESSION, his voting record was quite liberal, he ran to the left of Hillary . . .

Only with you is it a question because he is continuing certain Bush foreign policy.

Keep watching Olbermann, TSK. He's about your speed.

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 3:43 PM

Andy: Please provide a source for the claim that Obama negotiated current U.S. Iraq policy with MoveOn. Please identify what aspect of the current U.S. Iraq policy you contend is "far left" and/or "extremist" Andy, what is "my speed"? I'm sure that this was not meant as a personal attack, which you always claim is something in which you don't engage.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 3:54 PM

TSK, I do not provide references for those who do not keep up with current events. It was reported on CNN or covered on Meet the Press. The news is several months old now. If you'd turn off MSNBC, maybe you'd have a more balanced information.

Do your own research, please.

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 4:39 PM

Dave: You apologist for Islam, aren't you the non-believer who had a post deleted for making an observation based on the actual age of one of the Prophet's wives? I'm glad I was warned that you are a torch carrier for Islam because I would never have guessed such based upon your own posts.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 4:51 PM

Linda
_______________-------------------------------------_____________________

“He SAID many things during the campaign. I am watching his hands not his lips”.
“Don’t know what your obsession is with Hannity-personally don't care for his style often bordering on attacking personalities not issues-perhaps that is where you picked up your approach.”
_______________-------------------------------------_____________________

Let’s call this a near draw. You have an Obama hands' fetish. I am not obsessed with that stupid Hannity. I find him clueless and inept. I only watch Fox and the rest of Fox Freaks to get their points of view.


felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 4:55 PM

Maybe if you watched (and listen) you'd actually realize that there are no shows called Fox and Freaks. I guess you are wrong once again. You are boring. Again present facts about Obama has helped our country.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 5:01 PM

Look. Beverly has only two gigs.

She can run to a DNC or Obama website and cut and paste fluff she doesn't understand and can't defend.

Or she can trash conservative commentators (to whom we may be paying more attention if Obama doesn't start producing some results).

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 5:15 PM

Felix and Andy

Do you need to take a crap?

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Thu, 11th Jun '09 5:30 PM

EDITOR

Clean up in aisle #3, please

Thank you

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Fri, 12th Jun '09 2:04 AM

Tsk9653
Dave: You apologist for Islam, aren't you the non-believer who had a post deleted for making an observation based on the actual age of one of the Prophet's wives? I'm glad I was warned that you are a torch carrier for Islam because I would never have guessed such based upon your own posts.

Yes, thanks for that, it's good to see that some people actually read the words and not the spaces in between. Lest anyone is in any doubt I ABHOR ISLAM, i just happen to abhor the other Abrahamic religions too. Despite what he claimed in his WP, Andy seems to have real issues with honesty. Maybe it's just his comprenension skills, he seems to think that rape and murder of a juvenile are some kind of "errors of war" too.
I wonder what would happen if a group of heavily armed muslims stalked a 14 year old christian AMERICAN virgin in her own home town. I wonder what would happen if they gang raped her, and then killed her and burnt her body. I wonder what would happen if they did the same to all her family to try and hide the evidence. What if these muslims claimed they were at war ? Andy would call it a mistake apparently. People like Andy called the Vietcong geeks, and excused atrocities like those committed by the Tiger Force as some kind of military aberation.


barnierubble
Barnierubble  (Level: 93.9 - Posts: 637)
Fri, 12th Jun '09 2:23 AM

War is War. The rape and murder of a young girl has nothing to do with war. It does not help you win the war, it merely exposes what a sick lot some of your soldiers are. I do not support Christianity, nor do I support Islam, I just find the whole lot responsible for the death and destruction in this world.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Fri, 12th Jun '09 2:39 AM

I couldn't agree more Barnie. To excuse such an act as "an error on the battlefield" is to try and diminish its severity. Remember folks, most of these people will be coming to a town near you real soon.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Fri, 12th Jun '09 4:25 AM

Rape is no small or minor thing whenever or wherever it occurs. Trying to remember but believe there were similar charges against isolated US servicemen during Vietnam. It did nothing to heighten our image there along with the napalm thing. Many movies made about the killing of innocents there too. along with nightly graphic TV Not sure if the real reason we were ever there was ever given to John Q Public but have a feeling it was quite different from the one why we are in the Mideast. Because it was a very unpopular war we did/could not use the means to win although not quite sure what we would have won. We left. After we left our former enemies slaughtered people of all kind in the THOUSANDS. Huge issue though these rapes are would hate to see them become the issue/focus and cause us give up using all effective means to fight radical Muslims. Radical Muslims kill innocents all the time not only in their countries of origin but go to other countries including ours to do it Not sure if i made my point or not but tried. Linda

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 12th Jun '09 5:05 AM

I'll repeat it for you again, Dave

Regarding mistakes in the war theatre because war is never quite as cookie cutter clean as we (esp you) would like . . .

"Finally Peters asserts that warfare will never be clean and that instead of agonizing over the mistakes of young soldiers, our greatest war crime would be to lose."

No one is trying to diminish the severity of rape, much as such crimes are your principal focus.



collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 12th Jun '09 6:18 AM

Actually, Dave, I'll have something more on rape et al this evening.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Fri, 12th Jun '09 7:19 AM

To go back to the original topic of the thread and how LUDICROUS it is to send these guys to that tourist island now also Bermuda, some GREAT T-shirt ideas have emerged from this and perhaps that will improve someone's Economy. What a joke-

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Fri, 12th Jun '09 7:41 AM

what, like "my son is imprisoned in Cuba, and all I got was this lousy tshirt" That's pretty sick.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Fri, 12th Jun '09 8:02 AM

Sandy, from what I am hearing these guys are not going tio be imprisoned on that island nor Bermuda-not saying they should be. They are being given jobs.. The slogans and T-shirts are aimed at the tourists who pay big bucks to go to either of these islands and what a ludicrous solution to fulfill a promise Linda

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Fri, 12th Jun '09 9:19 AM

Linda; The four detainees to be released to Bermuda are four of the Uighurs cleared by the Bush administration of being "enemy combatants". The Uighurs were ordered to be released by a federal judge (into the U.S., if necessary) after the Bush administration's determination as to their status, although this order was reversed by a federal appeals court. The appellate decision DID NOT find that the Uighurs were, in fact, a danger to the United States; it was based on whether the courts had the constitutional authority to order detainees released into the U.S.

Since I have personally discussed the plight of the Uighur detainees in threads in which you have participated, I know you are aware of the basic facts relating to the Uighurs, namely, that they were found NOT to be a threat to the U.S. or enemy combatants. As such, for the life of me I don't understand your objections to letting four of the Uighurs resettle in Bermuda -- which was willing to take them -- when most nations would not for fear of offending the Chinese government. People find all sorts of ways to make a living. If somebody can sell some T-shirts that somehow involves the Uighur resettlement, what's the big deal with that? It seems like you object to the fact that the four Uighurs are given employment. Is this so, and if so, why would you object?

Although I don't agree with indefinite preventative detention under any circumstances, I can at least understand it when people advocate this approach for the Gitmo detainees who have not been definitively cleared of terrorist plans against the U.S. or its allies. I can't understand, however, why anybody would advocate continued detention of prisoners that even the Bush administration concluded were not "enemy combatants".

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Fri, 12th Jun '09 9:45 AM

My comments were not necessarily aimed at the Chinese guys nor there release-only time will telling it was a mistake or not You are correct as you and I both know you are if this whole thing is being treated as a law enforcement -scares me as that was Clinton's approach-issue they should have been released long ago-probably not sent back to China fate not good there. Since WW!I we have had at least two wars that were considered illegal. My issue is that after 9/11 why is this not a war? There is no particular country to be at war with and will grant you that Bush probably made a mistake in going to Iraq but he did. Since there is no particular country or even global region radical Muslims originate from this war is more difficult but believe to not treat this as a war is dangerous. Still wondering why the radicalized Muslim guy that shot the recruiter in Arkansas was not given the press that the guy who killed Dr. Tiller was. Both symbolized something bigger to the person who killed them. The actual purpose of my thread was to show how ludicrous Obama's decision was. Whether these Chinese guys are dangerous or not don;'t know but do know that his island thing was a political joke-Linda

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 12th Jun '09 1:22 PM

Dave, a few posts ago you were jumping up and down about the rape of a teenager by our soldiers.

Dave, do you know what a "rape room" is?

Well, you don't have to know because there are no more rape rooms in Iraq thanks to the work of the coalition forces.

You know, after a while, we learn what kind of people jump up and down about these rare atrocities of war but never have a word to say about rape rooms, throat slitting and the like.



tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Fri, 12th Jun '09 1:54 PM

Dave: Andy gave me the same lecture, in almost the identical terms, on another thread some months back. As if any of it justifies atrocities committed by troops in Iraq. As if it changes that some 600,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed as "collateral damage" in the conflict. (I acknowledge a range of estimates on Iraqi civilian deaths, I use one that seems reasonable -- and it is not the highest). I call 600,000 civilian deaths in a war waged for no good reason, at the very least, an "atrocity".

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 12th Jun '09 1:57 PM

No one is justifying atrocities, TSK. We know they happen and will happen and we prosecute the perpetrators.

Unfortunately, it seems to be all the Daves of this world post about. For them rape rooms and throat slitters must be OK, but our young men making mistakes is not.



clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Fri, 12th Jun '09 1:58 PM

Collioure
Dave, a few posts ago you were jumping up and down about the rape of a teenager by our soldiers.

Dave, do you know what a "rape room" is?

Well, you don't have to know because there are no more rape rooms in Iraq thanks to the work of the coalition forces.

You know, after a while, we learn what kind of people jump up and down about these rare atrocities of war but never have a word to say about rape rooms, throat slitting and the like.
Well, you had to try something after excusing paedophilia, rape and murder as "mistakes". You now seem to be saying this atrocity can be excused because some other atrocity has been stopped. The hole is quite big enough, i'd stop digging if i were you.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Fri, 12th Jun '09 2:20 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_captives_in_Guantanamo#Common_elements_in_the_allegations TSK, got that from Wikipedia. You know more about these guys than I do and probably they got a raw deal. Think our basic disagreement whether the terror thing should be in the hand of law enforcement or the military. Clinton put it in terms of law enforcement FBI and don't know if it was because of that but know the US was offered Bin Laden and didn't take him because they did not believe they had sufficient evidence .If it is military CIA -know this is an illegal war but anything we have done since WWII has been-then the US does not have to be concerned about sufficient evidence. It bothers me although will have to check for a reliable source that Obama is moving away from the CIA and towards the FBI-giving Miranda rights to folks picked up in Afghanistan. Fundamentalist Muslims scare me very much and the lack of the press on the Arkansas shooter scares me too. I was a fairly young person during Vietnam and saw the horrors unfold on TV, watched friends go and not come back, some come back and be forever changed. I protested against that war-nothing vioentt-the peaceful hippie way. Those Vietnamese people had not come into my country and killed so many though. In my mind-perhaps my thinking is wrong-this is a whole different ball game. Linda

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 12th Jun '09 3:53 PM

Nothing excused, Dave.

We prosecute those soldiers.

Still no comment on rape rooms and throat slitters?????

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 2:37 AM

Collioure
Still no comment on rape rooms and throat slitters?????

What kind of a world do you live in when people have to say they are disgusted by rape and violence? I for one would never call such things "an accident". I would never ask you if you are appalled by zionists using white phosphorous on civilians and children, of course you are.

barnierubble
Barnierubble  (Level: 93.9 - Posts: 637)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 3:31 AM

Me thinks someone here protests too much. Your soldiers raped and killed a young girl, then killed her family, but in your eyes its just a tragic mistake. All you can do is protest about Rape Rooms etc, ignoring the truth that what your soldiers did was beatial, and deserves the death penalty.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 4:06 AM

It is Dave who condemns only the soldier.

He somehow can't bring himself to condemn rape rooms, throat slitting, suicide bombing . . .

barnierubble
Barnierubble  (Level: 93.9 - Posts: 637)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 5:24 AM

HERE WE GO AGAIN. RAPING YOUNG GIRLS IS OK< BUT RAPE ROOMS BLAH BLAH BLAH

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 6:36 AM

Barnierubble

me got your point.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 6:39 AM

Spoken like a true Bush-hating bigot, Bill.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 8:28 AM

Collioure
It is Dave who condemns only the soldier.

He somehow can't bring himself to condemn rape rooms, throat slitting, suicide bombing . .

You are lying again, i thought my post made it perfectly clear that i abhor all rapes and violence. Sorry, maybe not lying, maybe just a bit "dense".

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 3:51 PM

I just read your posts, Dave.

You have had very little to say about the atrocities of Islamists.

And much more to say about the atrocities of the coalition forces.

Do he math. I do.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sun, 14th Jun '09 12:15 AM

Collioure
I just read your posts, Dave.

You have had very little to say about the atrocities of Islamists.

And much more to say about the atrocities of the coalition forces.

Do he math. I do.
Believe me if we were knee deep in islamic fundamentalists i'd be shouting louder than you. We are not, but we do have a few jingoistic US flag wavers, so i confront them. I don't really see that i need to condem wanton acts of violence on a daily basis, to some of us Andy that's a given. It's a bit like you never bothering to condem zionist violence in Gaza, but of course i know you do condem such things. Y'all have a nice day now.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 14th Jun '09 12:25 AM

Keep ignoring the atrocities of Islamists, Dave.

Among your finest contributions here.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sun, 14th Jun '09 2:58 AM

And you just keep on lying Andy, and making yourself look a fool of course.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 14th Jun '09 4:14 AM

I'm not lying, Dave.

Your posts, or lack thereof on certain subjects, paint a very clear picture.

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Sun, 14th Jun '09 9:04 AM

Andy: Dave's posts do, indeed, "paint a very clear picture" of your constant misrepresentations of his views.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 14th Jun '09 9:52 AM

I don't change Dave's words, TSK.

They speak for themselves such that his latent disclaimers are not credible.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sun, 14th Jun '09 10:21 AM

Not credible to who ? To you, you pompous oaf ? That's ruined any chance i had of sleeping tonight. You are liar, and you've been found out, and not just by me.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Sun, 14th Jun '09 10:28 AM


clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sun, 14th Jun '09 10:31 AM

I don't know about you, but i'd like to live in a world where torture is illegal, indeed i thought we did. Anyone who is responsible for sanctioning or committing torture should be bought to book..........ANYONE, Got that Andy ?...ANYONE

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Sun, 14th Jun '09 10:42 AM

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,526126,00.html nope rape is No minor issue-put that here because at times this thread has turned to that being the issue Linda

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 14th Jun '09 12:48 PM

Some of us don't view that as torture (after all it has become clear that we and other nations train personnel to resist waterboarding), and even if it were, those in charge thought it was worth it to protect the USA from another 9-11 kind of attack. I have no remorse over the waterboarding of three high level terrorists at Gitmo. I do disapprove of the renditions.

Interesting, Dave, that you did not condemn the terrorism, throat slitting of innocents and suicide bombings by the Islamists who don't play by any intl rules. Instead you fault the USA.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sun, 14th Jun '09 1:48 PM

Andy / There is no point in me trying to converse with an habitual liar.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 14th Jun '09 2:05 PM

I haven't called you a liar, Dave. However, your inconsistent positions posted here and silence on related matters are not credible.

barnierubble
Barnierubble  (Level: 93.9 - Posts: 637)
Sun, 14th Jun '09 2:45 PM

Why don't some of you get off the moral highground. Rape and torture, no matter by whom, be they Islamic or Coalition, is to be qabhored in ALL its forms. Let us, atheist, agnostic, Christian, or of the Islamic Faith, show some decency in this sorry mess, and stop trying to justify it all, because Dave does not point the finger at just the US soldiers, but at all terrorists. You would know this if you actually bothered to read his posts.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 14th Jun '09 3:07 PM

Bill, please. I have read Dave's posts.

BTW what torture?

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sun, 14th Jun '09 3:32 PM

Collioure
I haven't called you a liar, Dave. However, your inconsistent positions posted here and silence on related matters are not credible.
Only to you it would seem. If i clearly state one thing, and you post that i actually believe the opposite, you are calling me a liar. The fact that you haven't got either the balls or the honesty to actually come out with it changes nothing. You are beneath me Andy, and i can no longer trust a word you write.

barnierubble
Barnierubble  (Level: 93.9 - Posts: 637)
Sun, 14th Jun '09 5:31 PM

Torture that is perpetrated by Terrorists and soldiers alike. No matter how much you bluster, it is still beneath decent human beings.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 14th Jun '09 5:48 PM

That's your definition, Bill.

In any case the terrorists captured did not have the protections of the Geneva Convention. They had no uniforms, were not the forces of a particular country at war and were not engaged in traditional warfare. They were enemy combatants. Just like pirates on the high seas.

FYI it is you who is seeking the high moral ground here. If that's what you want, you have it.

Different strokes for different folks. I happen to prefer the approach to these high level terrorists that was carried out when we didn't know what was coming next.

barnierubble
Barnierubble  (Level: 93.9 - Posts: 637)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 1:59 AM

TERRORIST thinking I feel.


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