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collioure
Collioure  (Level: 105.1 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 6:15 PM

AMERICA'S 'BERMUDA SOLUTION' ANGERS BRITAIN

The secret transfer of 4 Uighurs (TSK's favorite Guantanamo inmates) to Bermuda has ruffled feathers bigtime in Britain.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/americas-bermuda-solution-angers-britain-1704147.html

barnierubble
Barnierubble  (Level: 93.9 - Posts: 637)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 1:52 AM

NO IT HAS NOT, IT has not been mentioned much at all by anyone.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 2:02 AM

That was the funniest response I've ever seen by anyone on a political thread Barnie, lol.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 2:19 AM

I'm with Barnie, i've heard nothing about it on any of the news stations i watch. Did you see it on Fox Andy ?

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 2:20 AM

PS/ I did read the article in The Independent, but i'm afraid not many do.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 105.1 - Posts: 9952)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 2:33 AM

I don't get Fox, Dave.

The article is from the British press.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 2:42 AM

I read the article, and am now curious as to why it was posted here. I haven't followed the Guantanamo debate, at the risk of sounding like the ignoramus I am on this issue, what's so interesting about this scuffle??

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 105.1 - Posts: 9952)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 2:42 AM

Maybe the subject matter is too advanced for you, Dave.

The point is that the Obama administration is so desperate to clear Guantanamo that they will ride roughshod over the desires of our closest ally.

Not to mention $200 million to Palau to take 13 other Uighurs.

That's TWO HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS to the tiny Pacific island nation of Palau

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 2:43 AM

Collioure
I don't get Fox, Dave.

The article is from the British press.

Wow i'm so sorry Andy, i bet you miss it terribly. I know who publishes The Independent, i read it everyday. The point is that hardly anyone else does. We have legions of morons that read The Sun and Mail instead. The last time i looked The Independent had (sadly) the lowest circulation figures, under a quarter million i believe. Superb paper, but no naked breasts, Big Brother or inane competitions and "tokens" to collect

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 2:43 AM

Obama should have called me, I'll take them in for fifty bucks, lol.

surreyman
Surreyman  (Level: 261.2 - Posts: 2770)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 3:46 AM

It certainly is in the news in the UK.
The point is that Bermuda, along with a score or so other areas, remains British Territory.
Mostly, such territories choose this status themselves for whatever benefits they imagine it brings.
As such, the UK is responsible for Bermuda's security and external relations.
The US government well knows this and acted in an underhanded way, as did the Bermudans.
Simple as that.
Or, would the US government mind if we slipped a few supposed criminals into Florida, as long as Florida's state government agreed while 'forgetting' to mention this to Washington?

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 4:27 AM

Admittedly, I don't always keep up on international politics, though I pay attention some depending on what it is, but that's not going to stop me from giving my initial reaction to the situation.

Someone explain to me why big countries get their panties in a bunch over things. I understand, outside of George Bush, there is no real international police to enforce things, and of course countries have bombs they can throw at each other when they get real pissed off this time(!), but who cares if the UK is "angry". I can't think of any relationship I've been in where we haven't "gotten angry" at each other. You talk, you work it out, and sometimes in EXTREME circumstances, you end the relationship. If it's that important to the UK, why shouldn't our leaders just apologize and work it out the way anybody else would in the same situation?

Seems to me these little things are just a normal part of "living together". I mean, is this really an abnormal situation where we can't just work it out, or where we are going to start throwing bombs? Doesn't seem like it to me. I haven't gotten the impression that things are so bad that we are about to "end" our relationship. So why worry so much about it? I ALMOST want to say, "move along folks, nothing to see here". I would probably be equally worried if the UK NEVER got mad at us for anything. What would that say about the UK? I say knee-jerk reaction relax, give it some time, there's still plenty of time to work it out, as "folksy" as I'm sure that all sounds, lol.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21604)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 4:39 AM

Believe Britain has been dissed for some time-starting with his less than "thoughtful" gift to the Queen. France has been awfully rude too not inviting her to the D-Day memorial thing. It is a habit of our current "leader" and perhaps "leaders' elsewhere to be nice to people when they think they might be valuable to them and then look down their noses at them when they see them as not. dunno just looks that way

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21604)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 4:53 AM

Wonder what Italy was promised-most likely a hefty monetary sum-now taking 3

surreyman
Surreyman  (Level: 261.2 - Posts: 2770)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 6:10 AM

Stoutyoungladd:
The situation is nothing like as explosive as you suggest.
Merely a necessary request for a bit more diplomacy.
I was hoping Obama had learned that lesson after Bush.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 105.1 - Posts: 9952)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 6:12 AM

Thank you for the clarity on this issue, Surreyman.

Dave, when I lived in the US, I generally only watched three programs on Fox - the Beltway Boys, O'Reilly (with misgivings at times), and the nightly news which concludes with a balanced panel's analysis of the news. I couldn't stand Hannity. Colmes was the better half of that duo.

Now I get most of my TV news from CNN and France's TF2.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 6:14 AM

Oh sorry Surrey! I wasn't intending to suggest the situation was explosive. I was kind of being tongue in cheek about it, but my point was that I didn't think it was all that "serious" as far as international relations goes.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 105.1 - Posts: 9952)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 7:48 AM

It's a real gaffe, Jeremy, and the Uighurs may well be sent back.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 7:51 AM

Umm, my post didn't claim it wasn't a "gaffe", I merely talked about the degree of it a little. If they get sent back I'll take them in for the lower fee of $150 mill.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 8:05 AM

Aw shucks, that amount was to Palau, didn't read it carefully.

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 8:41 AM

1. Andy, I don't have "favorite" Gitmo detainees. I have mentioned the Uighurs on several occasions as an example of injustice which, I would hope, a majority of my fellow citizens would condemn. These guys were cleared by the Bush administration of waging any sort of war against the U.S. Even after being cleared, the Uighurs were held in oppressive conditions, including solitary confinement for 23 hours a day. (I do understand that the living conditions at Gitmo for the Uighurs have improved now that Obama is president.) I have no doubt but that a significant number of non-Uighur Gitmo detainees have also been unjustly imprisoned for years. My point has always been about establishing a fair process to ascertain precisely what acts each of the Gitmo detainees are guilty of, if anything.

2. Andy, I'd take a bet that the Uighurs are not returned from Bermuda to Guantanamo. In fact, I have never heard anybody but you speculate that this might be the outcome.

3. Surreyman: While the U.S. should have consulted with the UK, I think your analogy is a bit off. More accurately, it would be as if the UK settled some folk in the North Marianas -- a territory which is part of the American Empire -- but not a state. Your analogy would be on-point if the US had secretly settled the Uighurs in, say, Wales. Successive UK governments have been lapdogs and apologists for US government outrages for so long, I'm not terribly surprised that the US government didn't even bother with the formalities of diplomacy with the UK government before doing what it wanted. I don't for a minute believe -- any UK government protest notwithstanding -- that the Uighur issue will mark any turning point in the US/UK relationship, and the UK government will continue to the US' most reliable European ally when it comes to support for international aggression.




tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 8:47 AM

Andy: I also must say that your continuous insults -- particularly toward Dave have gotten tiresome. Dave has consistently demonstrated his understanding of the topics under discussion and an ability to respond to the actual arguments presented in the topic threads. You, on the other hand, delight in mischaracterization of arguments advanced and knocking down strawmen.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 8:57 AM

Oh good, I didn't get mentioned in all that, lol. I was just fooling around on this thread anyway.



tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 9:16 AM

Stoutyoungladd; I have never seen you question somebody's ability to understand, reading comprehension, or the like because you disagreed with what they said. The posts I have read by you are always respectful, and often don't take a firm position at all, but, rather, seek more information about the topic under discussion.

surreyman
Surreyman  (Level: 261.2 - Posts: 2770)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 10:28 AM

Tsk:

Your analogy re Wales etc.is perfectly correct of course!

But you shouldn't assume automatic UK compliance with any future US "international aggression".
80% of the UK population, prior to invasion, were against the Iraq idiocy.
It was only squeezed through Parliament by Blair (having lost one-third of his own party) voting with the Opposition!
And, in retrospect, Parliament would now never even approach a majority. They were, unbelievably, bamboozled, and now fully realise that.
Considered support might well still be given, such as for Afghanistan. But never again for any President's personal adventures.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.8 - Posts: 1745)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 10:43 AM

Yes it would seem that someone else agrees that Andy is insulting to Dave. I think Dave is quite intelligent and informed on issues especially concerning the UK. He lives there of course he would know more about the press in the UK. If I were Dave I would be insulted by comments by Andy claiming he is pro-Muslim it is inflammatory.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.8 - Posts: 1745)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 10:45 AM

Also I am with Stoutyoundladd, why make a federal case out of Bermuda taking in Gitmo prisoners. If they are cleared of wrong doing by Bush no less, than shouldn't they get their freedom. Obviously they are political refugees and the humane decision is to fing a place for them. I am sure they have suffered enough otherwise they wouldn't be settled elsewhere at a cost to US.

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 11:21 AM

Surreyman; Assuming the overall accuracy of many polls of Brits, I absolutely agree that support for US intervention aroung the globe, and in Iraq, in particular, is not particularly popular among citizens of the UK; hence, I was careful to refer to the governments of the UK, which -- whatever rhetoric some of your pols might use to appease angry constituents -- have far too long abetted American imperialism. In fact, from what I have read, there is even a bigger disconnect between the views of the citizens and what the politicians do in the UK than there is between the views of US citizens and how its pols behave.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 11:35 AM

The above comments are very kind, and i do appreciate them, but please don't worry about me. Andy just hasn't got what it takes to get under my skin, it's not like i consider his opinion on most things as valid.

achad
Achad  (Level: 204.5 - Posts: 661)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 11:36 AM



allena
Allena  (Level: 255.9 - Posts: 1392)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 11:58 AM

Andy has brought up one of the issues that make Obama’s administration so pathetic. Not only did Hillary forget to tell the Brits, the idiot Bermudian Prime Minister negotiator forgot to tell the British as well. “Privately Whitehall officials accused America of treating Britain, with whom it is supposed to have a "special relationship", with barely disguised contempt.”

It is time for Obama to get with it. Dissing the Queen (the only living head of state that can remember the invasion of Normandy) is ridiculous. The United States owns the territory and maintains the cemetery at Omaha. We should have invited the Queen!!!

Surreyman knows Florida from Guam. Our press would be rather unsupportive if Obama moved the prisoners to Guam or any other American territory. Maybe Bikini atoll would work. Obama thinks he has an unlimited supply of our kids money to get what he thinks is a way to appease Muslims.

The problem with these guys in Bermuda is they have no way to make a living.
When the American check is cashed, they will be restashed. Hamilton is at least twice as expensive to live in as Florida or South Carolina where they will no doubt be “helped to reach” by some well meaning Bermudian.


tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 12:52 PM

Actually, it does not appear that work for the Uighurs in Bermuda will be a problem. From the "TimesOnline" of June 15, 2009"

The four former Guantánamo inmates — members of China’s Muslim Turkic-speaking Uighur minority — are dreaming of opening the first Uighur restaurant, serving noodles and lamb in the millionaires’ playground. “Uighur food is delicious. These kind and generous people of Bermuda, we want to do something for them. Of course, we want to have a Uighur restaurant,” Mr Abdulqadir said.

Before setting up their own business, however, they will have to learn to fend for themselves. They got their watches back when they left Guantánamo and kept their copy of the Koran, but are penniless. Their Uighur translator is leaving tomorrow and they will have to rely on their Bermudan government minder.

In several weeks the four will enter a government foreign worker programme to save up some money. Bermudian officials say they have already received five job offers for the men. Link to full article: The four former Guantánamo inmates — members of China’s Muslim Turkic-speaking Uighur minority — are dreaming of opening the first Uighur restaurant, serving noodles and lamb in the millionaires’ playground. “Uighur food is delicious. These kind and generous people of Bermuda, we want to do something for them. Of course, we want to have a Uighur restaurant,” Mr Abdulqadir said.

Before setting up their own business, however, they will have to learn to fend for themselves. They got their watches back when they left Guantánamo and kept their copy of the Koran, but are penniless. Their Uighur translator is leaving tomorrow and they will have to rely on their Bermudan government minder.

In several weeks the four will enter a government foreign worker programme to save up some money. Bermudian officials say they have already received five job offers for the men.

Link to full article: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6499129.ece

Believe it or not Allena, the USA is not everybody's first choice as a place to live. Just ask Andy.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21604)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 12:52 PM

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,526641,00.html some folks on this island not really happy either despite the money

allena
Allena  (Level: 255.9 - Posts: 1392)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 1:10 PM

Mr. Tim, I believe they will be in the US in less than two years and it will barely be a news story until they find themselves in trouble. Now, about wanting to live in the US ... Michigan would not be my first choice but it sure beats Uighur.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 105.1 - Posts: 9952)
Tue, 16th Jun '09 1:51 PM

Tsk, the Uighurs were your favorite Guantanamo prisoners. You loved to post about them as those who didn't belong there. Since the days the courts ruled them not a danger to the US, I believe they were transferred to a lower security facility.

Re: Dave. Insulting, Dave, TSK? To me he isn't credible.

BTW it was Dave who tossed a bomb in this thread, suggesting I found this topic on Fox. Of course, it's in a British paper I believe to be left of center.

surreyman
Surreyman  (Level: 261.2 - Posts: 2770)
Wed, 17th Jun '09 4:08 AM

Tsk:
Like and agree with your thinking again.
But the Blair/Iraq episode was so horrendous from so many aspects that I think any Brit government now realises it is going to need to tread far more carefully in future.
I was involved on the fringes here in the UK at the time. Iraq as such aside, it showed me just how flawed the current system of government in the UK can become given the wrong people at the wrong time. Change is needed here.


clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Wed, 17th Jun '09 4:33 AM

Dead right Surreyman. Any system that gives any party such a large majority, with such a small percentage of the voters, has to be wrong. PP has it's drawbacks though, note the BNP in the European elections. Would we want the situation they had in Germany when the Greens held the balance of power ? It might not be so bad with the Green Party in Britain, but the BNP ? The Western notion of democracy, although meritorious, is flawed. It's not the elected politicians that wield the true power, it's the multi national corporate fat cats that hold the purse strings.

surreyman
Surreyman  (Level: 261.2 - Posts: 2770)
Wed, 17th Jun '09 4:48 AM

And another major disadvantage of any 'normal' democracy is that 45% of the population can be ignored for 5 years.
In fact 100% of the population can be ignored for 5 years!
But fully take your point re PR too.
I don't know the answer. Nor, apparently, does anyone else.
It's said that the Swiss system of continual referenda(?) can approach, but I know little of it personally. That, though, could lead to loss of stability and government by momentary emotional whim.
We should be able to do better after some 2,500 years!


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