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tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Thu, 25th Jun '09 8:38 PM

GUANTANAMO

Report Based on Department of Defense data on 517 Gitmo detainess. Among other conclusions:

"Fifty-five percent (55%) of the detainees are not determined to have committed any
hostile acts against the United States or its coalition allies."

"Only 5% of the detainees were captured by United States forces. 86% of the
detainees were arrested by either Pakistan or the Northern Alliance and turned over to United States
custody."

Full report: http://law.shu.edu/publications/guantanamoReports/guantanamo_report_final_2_08_06.pdf

The following is a story about one of the detainee outrages written by Andy Worthington, a British historian and journalist who has spent considerable time over a period of years trying to get information about who is at Gitmo, how they were apprehended, and what they allegedly did:

http://www.counterpunch.org/worthington06242009.html

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 105.0 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 26th Jun '09 3:48 AM

Here we go again.

You know, TSK, after the travesty on a Supreme Court decision that you misrepresented here recently, it's hard to take anything you post at face value.

Indeed, there are not 517 detainees at Guantanamo. The most recent count I can find is 229. Some of those released have returned to practice terrorism. So all of them probably were not innocent.

Once again, even though your ilk chooses to look the other way, we're still at war. And when you capture people in the enemy's camp, you lock them up. UNTIL THE WAR IS OVER and possibly even longer.

(In this possibly sympathetic case I believe the reporter somehow skipped over how the detainee came to the Al Qaeda training camp)

madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.6 - Posts: 893)
Fri, 26th Jun '09 4:57 AM

This is a tempest in a thimble -- if you really want to get outraged, consider this (I know I'm off-topic, I'm trying for perspective):

In 2006, U.S. state and local child protective services (CPS) investigated 3.6 million reports of children being abused or neglected.
CPS classified more than 900,000 (12.1 per 1,000) ofthese children as victims. Nearly three quarters of them had no history of prior victimization.Sixty-four percent of the children were classified asvictims of child neglect; percent as victims of emotional abuse; 9 percent as victims of sexual abuse;and 16 percent as victims of physical abuse. A non-CPS study reported that 14 percent of U.S.children experienced some form of child maltreatment: 8 percent were victims of sexual abuse; 22 percent were victims of child neglect; 48 percent were victims of physical abuse; and 75 percent were victims of emotional abuse.

In 2006, CPS reported the approximate rates of child maltreatment victims: 24.4 per 1,000 for 0 to 1 year-olds; 14.2 per 1,000 for 1 to 3 year-olds; 13.5 per 1,000 for 4 to 7 year-olds; 10.8 per 1,000 for 8 to 11 year-olds; 10.2 per 1,000 for 12 to 15 year-olds; and 6.3 per 1,000 for 16 to 17 year-olds.

In 2006, more than 1,500 children ages 0 to 17 died from abuse and neglect (rate of 2.04 per 100,000 children). 78 percent or more deaths occurred among children younger than age 4; 12 percent among 4-7 year-olds; 5 percent among 8-11 year-olds; and 5 percent among12-17 year-olds. 43% of deaths were non-Hispanic White children. 29% of deaths were African-American children. 17% of deaths were Hispanic children.

http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/CM-DataSheet-a.pdf



tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Fri, 26th Jun '09 7:30 AM

1. Madame: True, there are other outrages in the world, but it doesn't make abuse and mistreatment of detainees at Gitmo any less outrageous. Nor the fact that many of the detainees were essentially purchased by the U.S. from local warlords and appear to be guilty of nothing more than pissing off said warlords.

2. I won't comment in any detail on Andy's post -- I've stopped because its pointless, he continues to misrepresent and to make assertions with no supporting evidence -- which will be evident to anybody who reads the report -- the link to which I have attached. The expression "don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up" fits virtually all of Andy's comments here perfectly.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 105.0 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 26th Jun '09 7:45 AM

Here you go, TSK

229 detainees

Here it is in the LA Times from last week.



clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Fri, 26th Jun '09 8:30 AM

Tsk9653
1. Madame: True, there are other outrages in the world, but it doesn't make abuse and mistreatment of detainees at Gitmo any less outrageous. Nor the fact that many of the detainees were essentially purchased by the U.S. from local warlords and appear to be guilty of nothing more than pissing off said warlords.

2. I won't comment in any detail on Andy's post -- I've stopped because its pointless, he continues to misrepresent and to make assertions with no supporting evidence -- which will be evident to anybody who reads the report -- the link to which I have attached. The expression "don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up" fits virtually all of Andy's comments here perfectly.

You must have noticed that this is a typical Repug tactic. The economy gets screwed up under The Chimp's watch, blame Obama. The US runs an illegal and immoral torture camp under The Chimp, blame the aftermath on Obama. The Chimp does nothing to ease the situation in Palestine, blame Obama. Re "not so very handy" Andy, i make you right. I too have decided to ignore his inane and banal quips, especially now he has taken to sending me private messages.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21604)
Fri, 26th Jun '09 9:13 AM

Here is my take. When you call Bush 'The Chimp" you lose me from the get-go, Dave just like Beverly does. I am not a Bush defender but have come to take responses back and forth either way between you and Andy-he is at fault as much as you are as not very credible. Look at it now as a personal conflict between you two which probably has little to do with fact. Have been that same place with Andy. I read carefully what Surreyman says as although he obviously does not believe Bush acted correctly, his responses are based in his knowledge of history. TSK is an attorney and guess that is why he is so concerned with the Gitmo guys being wrongfully imprisoned ror something as he sees it as a law enforcement issue. If I saw it that way, could not but agree with him Fact is I don't and consider the US at war with the folks who terrorize. Whether the Gitmo guys were among them not sure but my primary concern is not their rights. Whether everything is the fault of Bush going back to the Great Flood is also not my focus. The slow creeping of Federal Government control over everything which is indeed happening under Obama is. and the fact that folks are ignoring that frightens me-Linda

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21604)
Fri, 26th Jun '09 9:19 AM

As an example folks are saying the US census is no big deal and the questions and the people asking them should not concern anyone. It is a "stretch" i grant you but during WWII the results of the census were used to round up Japanese Americans and put them in camps-scary-Linda

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21604)
Fri, 26th Jun '09 10:01 AM

And before anyone reminds me that only Congress can declare war, let me say I know that. Just would like to know what we were doing in Korean and Vietnam for so long looking lie we were killing people and they killing us because Congress had not declared eiter of those "whatevers" war either. This one is extremely difficult as no country or region to war against but there is an element to war against. Sure because of this more innocents fall by the wayside.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 105.0 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 26th Jun '09 1:05 PM

Sorry, I left out the reference in the LA Times

http://www.latimes.com/la-na-holder-guantanamo18-2009jun18%2C0%2C7634354.story 229 DETAINEES!!!

FYI I haven't blamed Obama for anythign yet, and I hope I don't have to. I have noted that he was elected to fix the economy and instead of doing that he is off on an ideological bent. Guantanamo is his gays in the military, a subject he soon found out Americans did not want to revisit and about which his own VP said he had opened a can of worms.

The economy got screwed up on the watch of Bush, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid as a result of legislation sought by Barney Frank and Chris Dodd during the Clinton administration and I read that Barney is back at it again.

Regarding his foreign policy endeavors I have said his policies deszerve

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 105.0 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 26th Jun '09 1:09 PM

Sorry, I left out the reference in the LA Times

http://www.latimes.com/la-na-holder-guantanamo18-2009jun18%2C0%2C7634354.story 229 DETAINEES!!!

FYI I haven't blamed Obama for anything yet, and I hope I don't have to. I have noted that he was elected to fix the economy and instead of doing that he is off on an ideological bent. Guantanamo is his gays in the military, a subject he soon found out Americans did not want to revisit and about which his own VP said he had opened a can of worms.

The economy got screwed up on the watch of Bush, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid as a result of legislation sought by Barney Frank and Chris Dodd during the Clinton administration -- and I read that Barney is back at it again. Fed Chairman Greenspan is the one person most responsible.

Regarding Obama's foreign policy endeavors I have said his policies deserve a chance to work. At the same time his initial response regarding the human rights violations in Iran was far too meek for the leader of the free world.

madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.6 - Posts: 893)
Fri, 26th Jun '09 3:37 PM

Tim, my point was that the intensity of outrage about 200 or so people is out of proportion to the things in our own country -- innocent children for example -- that we should be ranting and screaming about. I can't shrug that off and say, well there are outrages everywhere.

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Fri, 26th Jun '09 5:21 PM

Madame;

While virtually all Americans will decry outrages involving children (well, at least if its American children -- not so much Muslim children killed as collateral damage in America's endless wars and paramilitary operations) -- few Americans seem to care about their own government torturing detainees, holding people in inhuman conditions without substantial evidence of wrongdoing, and indefinite preventative detention. I don't have enough time to familiarize myself with, and speak out against, all outrages so I tend to stick to the outrages that concern my fellow citizens least. With respect to these unpopular causes, I speak out because I know so few of my fellow citizens ever will; indeed, I know that few of my fellow citizens will even try to find information about particular outrages because they don't want to hear that America is less than perfect and pursues outrageous policies. If everybody stuck to popular causes, it would only further enable the state to perpetuate the type of outrages I chose to speak out against.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 105.0 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 26th Jun '09 5:50 PM

Oh, pullleeeeeze

Our forces are trained to resist the methods you choose to call torture that were used on three high level Al Qaeda operatives to avoid another mass murder in Los Angeles.

I think the outrage of which Colleen speaks merits much more attention.

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Tue, 30th Jun '09 9:04 PM

Report on the approximately 100 deaths of detainees apprehended in the "War On Terror". Report endorsed by at least one retired U.S. general:

The torture and death catalogued in excruciating detail by this important
Human Rights First report did not happen spontaneously. They are the
consequence of a shocking breakdown of command discipline on the part
of the ArmyÂ’s Officer Corps. It is very clear that cruel treatment of
detainees became a common Army practice because generals and
colonels and majors allowed it to occur, even encouraged it. What is
unquestionably broken is the fundamental principle of command
accountability, and that starts at the very top. The Army exists, not just to
win AmericaÂ’s wars, but to defend AmericaÂ’s values. The policy and
practice of torture without accountability has jeopardized both.

David R. Irvine
Brig. Gen. (Ret.) USA

Read the report: The torture and death catalogued in excruciating detail by this important
Human Rights First report did not happen spontaneously. They are the
consequence of a shocking breakdown of command discipline on the part
of the ArmyÂ’s Officer Corps. It is very clear that cruel treatment of
detainees became a common Army practice because generals and
colonels and majors allowed it to occur, even encouraged it. What is
unquestionably broken is the fundamental principle of command
accountability, and that starts at the very top. The Army exists, not just to
win AmericaÂ’s wars, but to defend AmericaÂ’s values. The policy and
practice of torture without accountability has jeopardized both.

David R. Irvine
Brig. Gen. (Ret.) USA

Read the report: http://www.humanrightsfirst.info/pdf/06221-etn-hrf-dic-rep-web.pdf

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 105.0 - Posts: 9952)
Wed, 1st Jul '09 4:01 AM

Tim, I scanned this report looking for something on Guantanamo. I didn't find any cases from Guantanamo. Did I miss something?

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 105.0 - Posts: 9952)
Wed, 1st Jul '09 4:02 AM

BTW did this same organization issue a report on Al Qaeda's methods in similar circumstances?

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Wed, 1st Jul '09 5:17 AM

Oh look. Andy thinks the US government should be comparable to Al Qaeda.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 105.0 - Posts: 9952)
Wed, 1st Jul '09 5:38 AM

Wrong, Dave, but then again you don't sport a very high batting average.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Wed, 1st Jul '09 10:34 AM

By apologies, i read your previous post and believed it. I know, will i NEVER learn ?

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 105.0 - Posts: 9952)
Wed, 1st Jul '09 11:04 AM

Sorry, Dave, you didn't get what I was driving at.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Wed, 1st Jul '09 12:22 PM

Sorry Andy, i forgot you have such poor communication skills.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 105.0 - Posts: 9952)
Wed, 1st Jul '09 12:39 PM

Not that either, Dave.

Looks like your batting average may drop under the Mendoza line.


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