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smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 13th Jul '09 10:09 AM

QUESTION FOR THE ENGLISH?

In the pronunciation of Trafalgar, should the fal part rhyme with pal or call?

Thanks.

garrybl
Garrybl  (Level: 279.5 - Posts: 6640)
Mon, 13th Jul '09 10:11 AM

Per the English it Rhymes with 'realgar' and as far as I know nothing else.


Check with Barneyrubble for how the Spaniards do it.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Mon, 13th Jul '09 10:16 AM

It rhymes with "phal", as in the hot curry. Or think "Fall" as in fallacious.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 13th Jul '09 10:18 AM

Good lord. Pal or call?

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Mon, 13th Jul '09 10:21 AM

Pal

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 13th Jul '09 10:23 AM

Thanks.

francesann
Francesann  (Level: 55.5 - Posts: 124)
Mon, 13th Jul '09 10:58 AM

If you pronounced it Tra fall ger, people would think you were very posh!!! Trying to talk like what the queen does.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 13th Jul '09 11:01 AM

Oh, swell. I was so hoping you were all agreed!

If someone educated was reading a historical poem for children on the BBC, how would they say it?

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 13th Jul '09 11:07 AM

Here's why I'm asking: I'm reading a book about it and I'd like to be getting it right in my head. Also, tomorrow night at the pub I'm reading a poem that mentions it and asking a question about it, and I'd like to be sure of the preferred pronunciation.

Prolly shoulda said that to start.

francesann
Francesann  (Level: 55.5 - Posts: 124)
Mon, 13th Jul '09 11:26 AM

I don't think there is a BBC pronounciation as such. Traff as in caf, al as in vandy and gurr at the end

lodi
Lodi  (Level: 98.7 - Posts: 2144)
Mon, 13th Jul '09 11:43 AM


smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 13th Jul '09 11:55 AM

Thanks, Lodi. I saw a couple of audio helps while I was trying to find out, but for some reason my computer will only produce sound in a Java applet (if anyone knows why THAT might be I'd be grateful to know).

I figured with something as central to their national ethos as Trafalgar, which is slathered on place names all over Britain, I could get a simple answer to how to correctly sound the middle A.

Flat A or tall A? Maybe it doesn't even matter.

I'm starting to think they don't want me to know.

francesann
Francesann  (Level: 55.5 - Posts: 124)
Mon, 13th Jul '09 12:38 PM

It is hard to explain in words especially as we have different accents, I looked on dictionary site and it was an american voice saying trafalgar, which does not help at all. If I say fal as in pal, that is the nearest I can get, but then how do you say pal with your accent. If you pm me I will give you a quick phone call and say the word for you. I speak with a London accent so it should be as close as we can get. Trish

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 13th Jul '09 12:46 PM

Oh, Fran, that's so sweet! Pretty sure we say pal almost the same, that's the one I'm going with. Was just trying to make sure it shouldn't be said with an "aw" sound in the middle.

lodi
Lodi  (Level: 98.7 - Posts: 2144)
Mon, 13th Jul '09 12:57 PM

The guy on the audio link said it like this:

Truh-FAL-gurr

With the Fal rhyming with pal.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 13th Jul '09 1:02 PM

Excellent! Thanks much!

m48ortal
M48ortal  (Level: 251.3 - Posts: 3742)
Mon, 13th Jul '09 1:48 PM

Are they videoing your reading? I read for the annual spelling bee and academic competitions, and then they broadcast the contests on the local access TV cable. I always tell them to focus the camera on the kids, not me. People think I'm being modest, but cameras make me more nervous than microphones, and if you mispronounce a word like "organism," you could wind up on youtube. It's bad enough when folks say "I know your voice," but I don't want to hear, "Oh, you're the guy that said..."

jeannette
Jeannette  (Level: 110.8 - Posts: 1736)
Mon, 13th Jul '09 2:30 PM

with fal rhyming with pal i think now you got me wondering lol

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 13th Jul '09 3:10 PM

No, no video, just pub trivia but I don't want one of the smartypantses correcting me.

nelly
Nelly  (Level: 172.0 - Posts: 1167)
Mon, 13th Jul '09 4:44 PM

Definitely 'pal', Donna!

kaufman
Kaufman  (Level: 256.8 - Posts: 3936)
Mon, 13th Jul '09 6:09 PM

The only poem I know that mentions it is about a guy who's a fan of Horatio Alger ...

aristotle
Aristotle  (Level: 72.7 - Posts: 191)
Mon, 13th Jul '09 6:24 PM

I'm a former Londoner and it's definitely 'pal'!

chickfbref1
Chickfbref1  (Level: 120.7 - Posts: 2012)
Mon, 13th Jul '09 6:49 PM

Question for the Welsh:

Jvvmchioo twwqppnvvb kkswkkeivvvwe?

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Tue, 14th Jul '09 1:31 AM

The main thing is "we" stuffed the combined navies of France and Spain. Of course, that was in the days when men were men, and cabin boys were careful.

wordster
Wordster  (Level: 159.4 - Posts: 910)
Tue, 14th Jul '09 3:44 AM

I 42nd that. It's pal.

rowlanda
Rowlanda  (Level: 70.0 - Posts: 2856)
Tue, 14th Jul '09 4:02 AM

Smoke....
I was brought up with ultra-British ex-pats,
and we said - truff oll guh - with the
emphasis on the middle syllable
OLL as in Jolly....
GUH as in Gun....
Don't take any notice of those Welsh Irish Cockneys!!!!
And if any asks - tell them you got it from a Scouse!!!!

barnierubble
Barnierubble  (Level: 93.9 - Posts: 637)
Tue, 14th Jul '09 4:22 AM

Deqar Smoke, As a true blue Englishman abroad, there is only one way to pronounce TRA( as in LA) FAL (as in PAL) GA (as in MA.The r is silent). Say after me TRA FAL GA(R)

surreyman
Surreyman  (Level: 260.6 - Posts: 2770)
Tue, 14th Jul '09 4:27 AM

Yep, as above.
The stress is on 'fal'.
In the original Spanish I think the stress is on 'Gar'.

surreyman
Surreyman  (Level: 260.6 - Posts: 2770)
Tue, 14th Jul '09 4:30 AM

But 'gar' is not really as 'ma'?
I'd have thought more like 'ger' as it's wrote, or sort of 'guh'.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 14th Jul '09 5:32 AM

Actually, the name dates back to the Moors - it's Arabic.

Means "Laurel Point". Oh the irony.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Tue, 14th Jul '09 11:24 AM

There will never be any stress on Tra, fal or gar. Britain never, never, never will be slaves. You must have heard that the sun will never set on the Empire, ever wondered why ? God would never trust an Englishman in the dark.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 14th Jul '09 11:29 AM

You mean never, never, never since 1066, when the Norman French ... uh ... conquered you?

surreyman
Surreyman  (Level: 260.6 - Posts: 2770)
Tue, 14th Jul '09 11:53 AM

Well, the Norse Normans actually ...
But we then took the whole western half of what is now modern France.
And when the French had a whole lot of North America, we kicked our French out, but you had to pay for the privilege!
Don't trade empires with me!

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 14th Jul '09 11:55 AM

True, you did have a wee gap between the kings who spoke French and the ones who spoke German.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Tue, 14th Jul '09 12:40 PM

That sounds a bit inaccurate, Alan.

At the time of William the Conqueror 'France' was rather small, centered on Paris and the Loire valley.

Less than 100 years later Eleanor of Aquitaine married Henry Plantagenet, and all her lands in southwest France came under English rule till the end of the Hundred Years War three centuries later. The Plantagenets held Anou and Normandy, I believe.

Northwest France - Brittany - remained a separate fiefdom until incorporated into France with the marriages of Anne de Bretagne to two French kings.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Wed, 15th Jul '09 2:13 AM

Bigamy is having one wife too many. It's much the same as monogamy.

barnierubble
Barnierubble  (Level: 93.9 - Posts: 637)
Wed, 15th Jul '09 2:20 AM

I agree with you there.

surreyman
Surreyman  (Level: 260.6 - Posts: 2770)
Wed, 15th Jul '09 5:39 AM

Coll: I said "what is now modern France".
At one stage 'English' lands stretched from Scotland to the Pyrenees.

garrybl
Garrybl  (Level: 279.5 - Posts: 6640)
Wed, 15th Jul '09 6:50 AM

The penalty for bigamy?
Two mothers-in-law.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Wed, 15th Jul '09 10:28 AM

Alan, you said 'the whole western half.'

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Wed, 15th Jul '09 10:43 AM

Maybe he didn't mean "EXACTLY half" - maybe he meant a "great big honking chunk."

bushyfox
Bushyfox  (Level: 174.4 - Posts: 2403)
Wed, 15th Jul '09 5:18 PM

Of course, if you are an Ozzarian, you would say "Tra Fal Ga"........we have a tendency to make "Er" at the end of a word into "A", and "A" at the end of a word into "Er".......

So thus, I spent six weeks in Vancouva, Canader..........get it?

Yup, I know.............

~Bev

surreyman
Surreyman  (Level: 260.6 - Posts: 2770)
Thu, 16th Jul '09 4:14 AM


collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Thu, 16th Jul '09 12:59 PM

I saw, Alan. I just can't find anything else to support the attachment of Brittany to the English crown.

surreyman
Surreyman  (Level: 260.6 - Posts: 2770)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 5:41 AM

Well, it was we Welsh who colonised it!

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 10:31 AM

I thought it was the other way around!

surreyman
Surreyman  (Level: 260.6 - Posts: 2770)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 3:31 PM

If you're joking, I'll shut up!
Otherwise ...
Originally largely populated by British soldiers brought to France by the Romans and settled there, reinforced by further British Celts moving away from Saxon invasions.
And ... a warning ... today's Daily Express carries a plug for holidaying in Collioure - your peace is about to vanish!! Or you could make a bomb by opening a few 'Olde Pubs'!

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 19th Jul '09 7:08 PM

Alan, I think you are correct about that, but I'm thinking about the Veneti, a Celtic tribe already installed there at the time of Caesar (and defeated by Caesar in the Gulf of Morbihan). I'll have to research that next week when I am finally home.

surreyman
Surreyman  (Level: 260.6 - Posts: 2770)
Mon, 20th Jul '09 4:56 AM

Obviously there were Celtic tribes there prior, and others there before that (as in Britain!).
I'm talking of the essential Brittany ('Little Britain') of British/Welsh immigration that largely defined the current 'nation', language etc.
Quite a few moons ago we spent some two great weeks on Morbihan, wandering around the Carnac stones, which were if I remember rightly way pre-Celtic by some thousands of years.
Tried out my Welsh here and there, which worked, much to the amazement of myself and the locals!

garrybl
Garrybl  (Level: 279.5 - Posts: 6640)
Mon, 20th Jul '09 6:49 AM

Thast last comment is fascinating to me Surreyman.
Where precisely did the welsh work --and can you suss out why?

surreyman
Surreyman  (Level: 260.6 - Posts: 2770)
Mon, 20th Jul '09 8:33 AM

The Breton language is very closely linked to Welsh - through the Celtic migrations from Britain to 'Little Britain', or Brittany - around 200-700 AD.
We also used to have 'shinny onion men' in the years after WWII, Bretons who came over to UK and cycled around selling their onions off long strands around their necks. My mother used to converse fluently with them!


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