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clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Thu, 16th Jul '09 2:39 AM

GENESIS REVISITED - A SCIENTIFIC CREATION STORY BY MICHAEL SHERMER

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=65c_1243098435
If further proof were needed that "Satan's got to me", here it is. This shortish vid is, in my humble opinion, quite brilliant. Any comments would be greatly appreciated as i am using this vid as a basis for a discussion over the weekend.

tuzilla
Tuzilla  (Level: 133.9 - Posts: 3777)
Thu, 16th Jul '09 10:28 AM

Cute, in a piously pompous, atheistic kind of way. I enjoy how many atheists cite a lack of the ability to place faith in the notion of creationism, but are willing to give absolute faith to the opposite with no more tangible proof than is possessed by the people they deride. One thing I know is you will never know if you are right, only if you are wrong.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Thu, 16th Jul '09 11:36 AM

And if atheists are wrong, nobody will be telling them, "haha - told you so."

It's going to be a very magnificent, but very humbling experience for all of us. But can you imagine the splendor of seeing the Creator of the universe, and how fearful and awe-filled that will be?

Just BTW and FYI, if God created a man as the Bible said, he created him full grown, not as an infant.

God would have no trouble creating an earth that appeared to be 4 billion years old.

I'm just saying.

I mean, God created physics and science - and He created the Laws He wanted to create - He made the decision to have everything work as it does.

I'm sure an all-powerful God who can create a universe would have no trouble using, keeping, tossing, or suspending those laws for any amount of time He wished, and putting everything into place appearing to be any age He wanted it to be. Trying to put human brain limits on an Intelligence and Power that is that big is pretty much vanity on our part.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Thu, 16th Jul '09 11:58 AM

Which particular "god" would that be ? There are SO many to choose from.
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Thu, 16th Jul '09 12:36 PM

Because I only believe in the one, true, Creator God, Father of Jesus, the Savior.

Here is what the Bible says:

Exodus 3:13-15 Moses said to God, "When I come to the Israelites and say to them 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me 'What is his name?' what shall I say to them?"

And God said to Moses, "Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh." (YHWH -pronounced Yahweh) He continued, "Ehyeh sent me to you.'"

And God said further to Moses, "Thus shall you speak to the Israelites: The Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you:
This shall be my name forever,
This My appellation for all eternity. (Exodus 3:13-15)

Translated, God said His name is "I Am." (or I Am Who I Am)


clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Thu, 16th Jul '09 12:40 PM

Jank0614
Because I only believe in the one, true, Creator God, Father of Jesus, the Savior.

Everybody who believes in any god is just as certain as you are that they pulled out the plum too.

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Thu, 16th Jul '09 1:06 PM

You're absolutely correct.

However - you disregard that there actually IS absolute TRUTH.

Everything else but the absolute truth is false.

Somebody actually is right.

And all the others are wrong.

I have made my choice. I've compared with the other writings and beliefs.

The God of the Bible is the One that I believe is the absolute Truth.

Everyone has to make that journey of discovery and investigation for themselves.

The God of the Bible is the One I pray to - and He is the only One who has performed miracles in my life and whom I've seen perform miracles in others' lives.

So the God of the Bible is the One for me.

papajensai
Papajensai  (Level: 192.9 - Posts: 1025)
Thu, 16th Jul '09 1:34 PM


I like this description of the difference between science and faith:

"Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."

The quote is from "Storm", a beat poem by Tim Minchin which I've referenced here before. One source to hear and read the whole thing is here: www.wimp.com/stormpoem/

I'm not going to get into a debate about this subject at this time. It's too important for the trivialization which will inevitably ensue.

Cheers!

papajensai
Papajensai  (Level: 192.9 - Posts: 1025)
Thu, 16th Jul '09 1:36 PM

Sorry, here's a hotter link:

http://www.wimp.com/stormpoem/

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Thu, 16th Jul '09 2:20 PM

There are many doctors and scientists who are devout believers in the God of the Bible. (I know some!) Their experiences, discoveries, and studies have only drawn them closer to God.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Thu, 16th Jul '09 3:40 PM

Right on cue my daughter sent me this.......
"Morality is doing what is right regardless of what you have been taught.
Religion is doing what you have been taught, no matter what is right."
The kid's a genius, i have no idea where she gets it from.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Thu, 16th Jul '09 3:54 PM

Platitudes aren't truth, though. They're nothing but cute things used to make people either feel justified for their beliefs, or to offend those with different beliefs.

There is an actual, absolute truth. One way or the other. And nothing anyone can say or believe can change absolute truth, no matter whether it's said by me or by you or a million preachers or a million atheists. Truth doesn't depend on anybody. It just is what it is, whether we know it or not.

(I love the dictionary.com definition of platitudes.)

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Thu, 16th Jul '09 4:19 PM

Well ... isn't that special?





Sorry, Jank, couldn't help it.

lodi
Lodi  (Level: 98.6 - Posts: 2144)
Thu, 16th Jul '09 5:28 PM



jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Thu, 16th Jul '09 6:00 PM



bushyfox
Bushyfox  (Level: 174.4 - Posts: 2403)
Thu, 16th Jul '09 6:05 PM

Many folks of the world are monotheists...not believing in "different" Gods, just the same God by a different name.

~Bev

lodi
Lodi  (Level: 98.6 - Posts: 2144)
Thu, 16th Jul '09 8:03 PM

My god's name is "Ammit."

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Thu, 16th Jul '09 8:11 PM

You know those black billboards with the white messages from God?

Saw one last week that said "The next time you curse, please use your own name."
ha

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Thu, 16th Jul '09 8:18 PM


jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Thu, 16th Jul '09 8:22 PM

Those are awesome!

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Thu, 16th Jul '09 8:24 PM

Just as a matter for speculation, wouldn't forging God's name to fake quotes constitute using his name in vain?

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Thu, 16th Jul '09 9:18 PM

Do you think it does?

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Thu, 16th Jul '09 9:33 PM

Of course not, but seems like you should.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Thu, 16th Jul '09 10:19 PM

Nah - I think God invented humor too!

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Thu, 16th Jul '09 10:28 PM

Well, okay, just wondered which camp you're in. There are some who think the ad campaign is trivializing to their faith, and they do consider it wrong to put words in God's mouth ... so to speak.

Hubris, at a minimum

Never mind me, I'm still working on God salting the earth with fake fossils and fake tectonic plates. Mysterious ways, indeed.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Thu, 16th Jul '09 10:51 PM

Well, when you figure that out, please let me know, too!

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Thu, 16th Jul '09 11:11 PM

You'll be my first call.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Thu, 16th Jul '09 11:28 PM

Thanks.
And when we get to Heaven, I'll put in a good word for you with the Boss!

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Thu, 16th Jul '09 11:48 PM

I appreciate the sentiment, it's the thought that counts.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 2:08 AM

Jank0614

There are many doctors and scientists who are devout believers in the God of the Bible.

There are a lot more who don't, and i know lots of them. As for your few, even the bright are succeptible to threats and indoctrination.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 2:13 AM

Bushyfox
Many folks of the world are monotheists...not believing in "different" Gods, just the same God by a different name.

Nobody with an IQ larger than their shoe size can claim that christians and muslims worship the same god. Christians believe in the trinity, muslims do not . The Nazarine chippy is either immortal or he isn't. Sikhs and Hindus have hundreds of gods, they are not monotheists.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 2:15 AM

Smoke
Well, okay, just wondered which camp you're in. There are some who think the ad campaign is trivializing to their faith,

I'm glad the flat Earthers aren't that touchy.

wordster
Wordster  (Level: 159.4 - Posts: 910)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 2:55 AM

Isn't it remarkable that so many different peoples and cultures around the world have theistic belief-systems/faiths to try to explain the creation and why they are here? Can they all be wrong?

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 3:09 AM

Throw a rock into the air, it will fall to Earth, science worked out why. Throw a rock into the ait and pray that it stays up there, see what happens.
"Don't pray in my school, and I won't think in your church"

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 4:40 AM

Wasn't going to participate in this thread as all pretty well know I am not religious. Just strikes me as odd that some find it so much fun to belittle "believers" and even mock them with Saturday Night Live phrases. Perhaps their time might be better spent walking their dogs on the beach. That, however,, does not prove how clever and witty they are at the expense of sommeone else.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 5:09 AM

As a plan it requires a dog, and the close proximity of a beach of course. One could equally ask why, if one has so much failth in one's imaginary friend, that one needs to proselytise. It doesn't stop them though does it? People come on here asking for prayers, what makes them think that "god" is going to change his / her / it's mind ? Do they think the omniscient one may have got it wrong first time round ?

surreyman
Surreyman  (Level: 260.6 - Posts: 2770)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 5:40 AM

Clevercloggs:

Of course Judaism, Christianity and Islam worship the same God.
And often share prophets.
It's just that the latter two brought different prophets to the fore.
Sikhism is also, in fact, monotheist, as is Hinduism. They just have more offshoots (no different, really, to Christianity's saints).
And, of course, all then divide up into (God knows how many!) offshoot sects.
But they all go back to whoever organised the Big Bang!


smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 7:40 AM

Linda, I'm not trying to "prove" anything here, clearly you have trouble discerning the difference between mocking and teasing. Jank seemed to be okay with the Church Lady reference. To me she's our very own Church Lady of Sploofus Island, here to shake her finger in our sinful faces on behalf of the lord; Jank's probably a better dancer, though. If I was offensive to HER she's shown no lack of ability or willingness to speak for herself. EVERYTHING I say is offensive to you, so try and imagine how little I care what you think.

Go ahead. Try.

That high-pitched whining noise and the frantic scratching you hear is Sasha needing a walk.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 7:45 AM

I, for one, think you are very clever and witty....just my opinion.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 7:46 AM

You don't count, you're my crony.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 7:48 AM

Oh I forgot!

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 8:13 AM

I'm slow that way-cannot dstinguish between a catty , nasty remark and just good old fashioned "pulling someone's leg"

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 8:19 AM

Of course I care.

But I've learned through experience what happens if I even hint that something bothers me. The teeth dig in and they don't let go. Why even try?

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 8:19 AM

Yes, it's obvious you're challenged that way.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 8:21 AM

And do "try to keep up", Smoke. Goddess is in the "relative" not the "crony" category

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 8:22 AM

Apologies, Jank, your fooled me into thinking you laughed.



smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 8:27 AM

Smiley faces used to help convey tone in the posts, but lately they seem to mean the exact opposite.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 8:28 AM

I can laugh at snarky remarks. But it's still a snarky remark.

I'm more bothered that you think of me as the "church lady of Sploofus." Hopefully you laughed as you typed that, because if I'm not mistaken, church lady was a creepy, mean caricature mocking all Christians.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 8:28 AM

And Donna, your apologies are usually the equivalent of:

I'm sorry I twisted the knife more painfully when I jammed it in your back.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 8:29 AM

Only some, not all.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 8:30 AM

Oh, Bravo! You'll get some high fives for that one!

I don't quite get the "stabbed in the back part", though, I make my comments right out front.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 8:35 AM

Geez Linda, I think you are funny too and we aren't related.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 8:58 AM

Linda enters a conversation she admits she has no interest in, just to criticize me. Not the first time by a long shot.

Jank responds falsely and later says she was offended, dismisses my apology as a stab in the back and a twist of the knife.

Don't need a scorecard to see where the cronies are.

Jank, I truly didn't think you were thin-skinned enough to take a Church Lady reference as a stab in the back. I've thought of you as Church Lady forever, I just do, and there you go. I can almost see the avatar. But I wasn't even calling you Church Lady in my "special" post, I was saying you

My apology is as sincere as your pain. If you are really wounded, I am really sorry. Methinks the Lady doth protest too much for someone who laughed.

Cloggs, sorry that the massive gravity of my very presence pulled your thread out of orbit.

Think I'll go walk a dog.



smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 9:02 AM

The missing part is I was saying you make similar judgmental and sweeping pronouncements about unknowable absolutes, and I was using Church lady's dismissive phrase to say what I think of that as a debate tactic.

Have a nice afternoon.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 9:21 AM

Actually you are totally unimportant to me as well as what you think. Barry, where are you now with the offense at the mean-spirited word "crony" Yep, think we all GE IT

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 9:36 AM

Actually should have said I have absolutely no use for people who enjoy being nasty and mean just for the pure joy of it whatever the topic might be or whether that meanness is i the form of it is a quick snide remark or a multiple paragraph speech

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 9:36 AM

Good. It's mutually established and agreed that we are equally unimportant to each other. Done and done.

Now let's give everyone else a break and ignore each other. I mean really.

I'm willing if you are.

Hell, I'm willing if you aren't.

>click<

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 10:08 AM

Surreyman
Of course Judaism, Christianity and Islam worship the same God.
And often share prophets.

Sorry mate, you're usually spot on, but that's just poppycock. In islam Jesus is a mortal prophet, in christianity he is the son of god, as well as a part of the "father, son and holy spook" garbage. There is absolutely no way you can justify saying christians and muslims worship the same imaginary friend.
"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence"

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 10:20 AM

And so, my comment above "But I've learned through experience what happens if I even hint that something bothers me. The teeth dig in and they don't let go. Why even try??" is proven 100% correct again.

Experiment with sample concluded.

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.0 - Posts: 240)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 10:29 AM

Well, so much I could say here, but probably won't say it all. First, Tuzilla's post at the beginning is completely brilliant, and of course, completely ignored by the atheist author of the thread. Convenient.

The author of the thread said this...

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful

Two things...Jesus Christ was not religious. In fact, He hated religion. You would know that if you actually picked up a Bible instead of just dismissing it. As for wisdom...

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Furthermore...

I Corinthians 1:18-25 The message that points to Christ on the Cross seems like sheer silliness to those hellbent on destruction, but for those on the way of salvation it makes perfect sense. This is the way God works, and most powerfully as it turns out. It's written, I'll turn conventional wisdom on its head, I'll expose so-called experts as crackpots. So where can you find someone truly wise, truly educated, truly intelligent in this day and age? Hasn't God exposed it all as pretentious nonsense? Since the world in all its fancy wisdom never had a clue when it came to knowing God, God in his wisdom took delight in using what the world considered dumb—preaching, of all things!—to bring those who trust him into the way of salvation. While Jews clamor for miraculous demonstrations and Greeks go in for philosophical wisdom, we go right on proclaiming Christ, the Crucified. Jews treat this like an anti-miracle—and Greeks pass it off as absurd. But to us who are personally called by God himself—both Jews and Greeks—Christ is God's ultimate miracle and wisdom all wrapped up in one. Human wisdom is so tinny, so impotent, next to the seeming absurdity of God. Human strength can't begin to compete with God's "weakness."






fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.0 - Posts: 240)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 10:33 AM

Surreyman said this...

Of course Judaism, Christianity and Islam worship the same God. And often share prophets. It's just that the latter two brought different prophets to the fore. Sikhism is also, in fact, monotheist, as is Hinduism. They just have more offshoots (no different, really, to Christianity's saints). And, of course, all then divide up into (God knows how many!) offshoot sects.
But they all go back to whoever organised the Big Bang!

As Clevercloggs, of all people, has already pointed out before I had a chance, you're wrong.

In regards to the Big Bang, that theory has had so many holes poked in it that most scientists agree that it can't be true. The only problem is that they don't have a replacement theory, so they stick with it. If you'd like, I'd be happy to point out a few holes. It'd be my pleasure.


smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 10:33 AM

Thank you for experimenting on me. Next time say what you mean and don't grin when you're offended.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 10:35 AM

thought you were dog walking. Well everyone can hope

crazy4games
Crazy4games  (Level: 123.0 - Posts: 1020)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 10:40 AM

Caramel 1, why must you continue to troll, lookig for a fight?

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 10:43 AM

Not quite sure when "trolling" becomes noticing outright meanness. ARe we back to poor Smoke again? just want to be clear

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 10:50 AM

Talk about snarky! glass houses and all...

crazy4games
Crazy4games  (Level: 123.0 - Posts: 1020)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 10:51 AM

Caramel1 said - thought you were dog walking. Well everyone can hope

It seems to me you like to antagonize. I'm not rushing to Smoke's defense. She doesn't need me for that. She is more than capable of fighting her own battle. But I thought this thread was going along quite smoothly, until you started to stir the pot.
I could be wrong, but that's just how I see it.


clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 10:51 AM

Fainodraino
Two things...Jesus Christ was not religious. In fact, He hated religion. You would know that if you actually picked up a Bible instead of just dismissing it.

One thing, "Jesus" does not equal religion, his myth is just a part of the overall. You christians really must try and get over yourselves.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 10:52 AM

Exactly.

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.0 - Posts: 240)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 10:54 AM

So Jesus is a myth? That's interesting. So despite all the physical and historical evidence to prove otherwise, you still BELIEVE he's a myth. Who's being religious now?

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 10:57 AM

It was going rather smoothly altough believe the thread topic might have been offensive to some. By "stiring the Pot" if you meant that Smoke got personal by calling Jank "CHURCH Lady" - a rather offensive SNL character "innocent" and "clearly no offense intended" I am sure-yep I stirred the pot.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 10:59 AM

I must thank everyone who has contributed to this thread so far. So much ammunition, i mean subject matter, for tomorrow's debate. It was never going to be easy (for me) to try and put the "believers" point of view, i may even pull it of now. In my agnostic / atheist Yahoo groups the religious that attempt to invade us are all fruitloops, no use to me at all. It's been useful to get the views of normally sentient people who, on this one issue, are just plain deluded.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 11:00 AM

If we could go back to where it all jumped the track, my comment to Jank was a reaction to HER reaction to the quote Cloggs posted, which was to dismiss it as a "platitude" that is not "truth."

I thought it was an excellent quote and FULL of truth.

Cloggs has as much right to pontificate on his beliefs as Jank does. The article was thought-provoking; reminded me for some reason of one I read decades ago about the scientific explanations for the several ways Superman would kill any woman he tried to make love to.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 11:05 AM

I don't think anything i say should worry anybody who has TRUE faith, and thanks Smoke. I just thought adding a few quotes might spice up the thread a bit, here's another.........
"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart" More here if you're interested.
http://www.chrisbeach.co.uk/viewQuotes.php

crazy4games
Crazy4games  (Level: 123.0 - Posts: 1020)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 11:07 AM

Did Jank indicate in any way that she was "hurt" by the SNL reference? No, she gave a big grin. I actually thought it was pretty cute, and that Jank was showing that she has a sense of humor.


fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.0 - Posts: 240)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 11:10 AM

We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart"

I'll keep that in mind when thinking of you, Cloggs.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 11:10 AM

The whole feigning(?) of indignance is disturbing.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 11:15 AM

Fainodraino
So Jesus is a myth? That's interesting. So despite all the physical and historical evidence to prove otherwise, you still BELIEVE he's a myth. Who's being religious now?

If you want to worship a Nazarine, chippy, political agitator.......you go ahead sunshine.....be my guest. There is no proof that he was anything other than that, if indeed that, certainly no proof that he's a zombie.

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.0 - Posts: 240)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 11:18 AM

And you go ahead and continue worshipping yourself and your delusions of grandeur.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 11:22 AM

Yes, the feigning of indignance is offensive right up the "pretending" you don't know what someone is talking about. I abhor mean people who are mean or dismissive of others while seming to be kind. "Church Lady" I expect was as offensive to Jank-she later said so- as my calling Obama TOTUS.-rather "cute" I think. This is the new nicer Sploofus-lines still in the sand IMO

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 11:25 AM

Fainodraino
And you go ahead and continue worshipping yourself and your delusions of grandeur.

Better that than delusuions of adequacy. Y'all have a nice day now.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 11:28 AM

You seem to be the only one bothered by it. I don't believe you care one way or the other...not being religious and all. Smoke was right out front and didn't pretend anything, she was waiting for the comeback and Jan just laughed..which I am sure suprised her. Jan was maybe pretending a bit...either that it was funny...or that later she didn't think so. Not sure which..and don't care.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 11:30 AM

Caramel1
. This is the new nicer Sploofus-lines still in the sand IMO

Still, no politics, that's good innit ? I promise i will never feel elated that people who believe differently to me will suffer for all eternity. That's just plain nasty.
"If the Bible is mistaken in telling us where we came from, how can we trust it to tell us where we're going?"

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.0 - Posts: 240)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 11:52 AM

If only the Bible was mistaken in the first place...Oh wait, it's not....

foogs
Foogs  (Level: 267.4 - Posts: 848)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 12:02 PM

The egotism in this discussion is palpable.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 12:12 PM

Nope, no politics, in this thread and everyone can see the difference in niceness it has made. You know we old folks get offended by anything and everything whether we are religious or not . Then there is the other option that many of us find some here very offensive-not you, Cloggs, in my case and love being very verbal -stirring the pot and all. Was that vague enough to satisfy the new Sploofus niceness rules? Would not want to come right out and be brutally blunt that I find some people and the way they make their points offensive. Much knder to pretend that we don't know that something is a part of who they are or say we don't understand because one might have physical disabilities that prevent them from copying exact words or tyiping skill in general. Mre? am overwhelmed by my love for everyone including Perry Mason and get all choked up over Nancy Drew, but I didn't just refer to antything political.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 12:36 PM

Everyone finds someone offensive of these boards....SOME even go out of their way to be that very thing just to "stir the pot". I, too hold my tongue A LOT. The things I would like to say would get me banned I am sure, but then I think they can't be all bad. So I hold my tongue for now.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 12:45 PM

Goddess28

Everyone finds someone offensive of these boards....SOME even go out of their way to be that very thing just to "stir the pot".

Isn't that the point of a forum ? I believe every word i write, but my reasons for writing them are open to question. I assumed we all had enquiring minds, maybe not.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 12:47 PM

That is exactly the point of the forum.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 12:47 PM

The key is use sarcasm and innuendo -have no quarrel with most here. Probaby many do with me though but not losing any sleep over it. People not liking you only really matters when they bomb your quizzes not because of quiz quality but because they don't like you the person. I stopped writing quizzes long ago

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 12:48 PM

I am glad you write what you do...you don't target anyone inparticular. That is the difference.

didb72
Didb72  (Level: 209.6 - Posts: 243)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 12:49 PM

I don't want to be funny but clevercloggs last post is number 666...

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 12:49 PM

Sorry, that post was meant for Cloggs.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 12:54 PM

Yep, I like up front and personal-really into mud wrestling-we ll start in the same place

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 12:57 PM

Didb72
I don't want to be funny but clevercloggs last post is number 666...

Want to or not, you are hilarious, that was of course a "bespoke" post. Just imagine a fully grown adult being scared of a number....tee hee, titter titter.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 12:58 PM

It is also quite clear where we are in mud wrestling and we ALL know that is going to get sleazy and dirty

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 1:11 PM

I am always sleazy and dirty. I know of wrestling, would one use mud as a cheap replacement for a moderately priced jello ?

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 1:22 PM

The only ones I think that are hits at mud wrestling are big breasted women but perhaps I went to the wrong bar

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 1:27 PM

I like natural, be that large or small. My ideal woman would probably be a 5' 10 " Scandanavian. Long legs and loose morals. I'm really not that fussy though, any offers will be considered. Short brunette prudes do not need to be deterred.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 1:34 PM



papajensai
Papajensai  (Level: 192.9 - Posts: 1025)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 2:16 PM

He said terred.

alvandy
Alvandy  (Level: 229.3 - Posts: 7560)
Fri, 17th Jul '09 7:21 PM

And now for something different- please view the "I Ate My First Banana- Monkey Style".

It might change this thread's focus into discussions about evolution.



I'm just trying to lighten up this thread- play nice!







uturntama
Uturntama  (Level: 51.0 - Posts: 179)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 2:43 AM

Leave the legalism out of this. All I've got to say is YOU BETTER GET RIGHT OR GET LEFT. If you do not want to live in the fiery pit of hell for the rest of your life you better receive Jesus Christ as your personal Savior. Everyone wants to fight over if there is a God or not. All you who do not believe in God.................WHAT IF YOU ARE WRONG????? One day it may be too late!!!!!!!!!!

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 2:54 AM

What's life without a few risks ?

"If there were a God, I think it very unlikely that he / she / it would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence"

garrybl
Garrybl  (Level: 279.5 - Posts: 6639)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 2:56 AM

I hope that last comment came from a troll invading your machine uturntama.

I'm not sure if I speak for the majority or not (it rarely happens) but as a non-religious person I'm happy for other people to believe what they want --just so long as they don't tell me about their beliefs and expect me to believe them. Liberty for all I say.

And by the way I really do not mind being asked to pray for other people in need; in fact if it does the requester good and the person being prayed for feels support everyone benefits.

Barry

surreyman
Surreyman  (Level: 260.6 - Posts: 2770)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 4:55 AM

I said:
"Of course Judaism, Christianity and Islam worship the same God. And often share prophets. It's just that the latter two brought different prophets to the fore. Sikhism is also, in fact, monotheist, as is Hinduism. They just have more offshoots (no different, really, to Christianity's saints). And, of course, all then divide up into (God knows how many!) offshoot sects.
But they all go back to whoever organised the Big Bang!"

The reference to the Big Bang was a joke, I have no idea of its scientific nuances.

The other facts are facts. Go check.

didb72
Didb72  (Level: 209.6 - Posts: 243)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 6:09 AM

I could not agree more on your first point Barry, I could not have put it better. Regards

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 6:14 AM

You can repeat an inaccuracy as many times as you like, it will still be inaccurate. Christians believe in the trinity, muslims do not. Christians see Jesus as their saviour, muslims do not. Christians believe Jesus will make a second coming, muslims do not. How many times is Big Mo' mentioned in the bible ? You are wrong, now THAT is a fact.

surreyman
Surreyman  (Level: 260.6 - Posts: 2770)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 8:27 AM

But I never denied any of that .........


jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 8:43 AM

Jews and Christians only worship the same God, YHWH. Allah is not YHWH.

As far as Islam is concerned, Jews and Christians are infidels, not brothers.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 8:58 AM

Brothers is exactly the relationship, the brothers being Isaac and Ishmael.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 9:16 AM

Nice avatar!

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 9:20 AM

Thanks! Gotta get the mojo workin'.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 9:37 AM

Well you have a week to do it...INDY!

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 9:42 AM

Smoke - generally believers call each other brother or sister (Diva and I call each other sister, even though she is Jewish - we still serve God YHWH). You're exactly right about DNA brothers.

I was referring to brothers in the faith, which Islam feels no brotherhood with Jews or Christians (they want Jews to not exist). Sorry I wasn't clear.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 9:44 AM

That brotherhood thing comes and goes. Aren't we all part of the brotherhood (and sisterhood) of man?

They still worship the same god, however the forms may have drifted.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 9:51 AM

No. It has been explained several times here how they do not worship the same God. Allah and YWHW are not the same.

No, we are very much brothers and sisters in humanity on earth, but we are definitely not brothers and sisters in the faith.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 9:55 AM

Was a time when Catholics didn't consider Protestants brothers and sisters in faith.

Same god, different lines of development. The god of Abraham is Allah.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 10:08 AM

You can never admit you are wrong. But it doesn't change the fact you are wrong.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 10:14 AM

In fact, you don't even believe in God or Allah. Apparently, you just like to argue.

surreyman
Surreyman  (Level: 260.6 - Posts: 2770)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 10:16 AM

Oh dear.
Islam fully accepts Adam, Moses, Noah, Abraham, Jesus, Gabriel et al as previous recipients/prophets etc. of "God's Word".
Islam is an 'Abrahamic' religion.
Islam fully believes in the Virgin Birth, for instance. Mary is Islam's prime 'religious woman', and a book in the Koran is named after her.
Mohammad is simply accepted by Islam as 'the final prophet', following on from all these others.
Jews and Christians are regarded as parallel 'people of the book'.
Those who don't know these basic principles should wait awhile before expounding errors.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 10:19 AM

I admit I'm wrong when I am wrong. Not this time.

The state of religious tension in the world today is a 5000 year old family squabble.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 10:20 AM

I don't believe in Zeus or Jupiter either, but I can still intelligently and reasonably discuss their common origin.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 10:26 AM

There are definitely people borrowed from the original beliefs, but Islam does not like Jews. Jesus and his complete lineage are Jews.

They may use the names, but they do not believe in Jesus as the savior.

There are many other differences, but since this is a national site, I cannot go into them. But Christians and Jews very much know the facts about it.

Only non-believers argue about this. You know the historical, atheist teachings. That's all I can say in a public forum.

surreyman
Surreyman  (Level: 260.6 - Posts: 2770)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 10:38 AM

Of course there are many differences!
Of course they don't regard Jesus as their saviour!
But Allah is the same God that, presumably, you worship via a different name and through totally different avenues.
Get used to it.
There's nothing atheistic about that!!
It doesn't stop any of one Abrahamic religious version hating another! Inter-Christian sects have warred for centuries, including this century, let alone inter-religion sects. Is, therefore, the Protestant God not the same as the Roman Catholic God?
Just quote any reputable text that definitively says 'Allah' is not the same Being as the Christian or Jewish God.
As before, get some facts before being so definitive - and wrong.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 10:47 AM

Fortunately, all I'm interested in is Truth, not the final word. I actually am a believer, so this is stuff I've studied all my life.

"O people of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which he conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit [sic.] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers and say not 'Three' - Cease! (it is better for you! - Allah is only one God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son...The Messiah will never scorn to be a slave unto Allah." Quran [004.171 ]

They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. Quran [005.073]

"And when the son of Mary is quoted as an example, behold! The folk laugh out, and say: Are our gods better, or is he? They raise not the objection save for argument. Nay! but they are a contentious folk. He is nothing but a slave on whom we bestowed favor, and we made him a pattern for the Children of Israel. And had we willed it we would have set among you angels to be viceroys in the earth". Quran [043.057-060]

"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary a grave false charge; That they said (in boast): We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah. But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjunction to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. ... And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness against them (Christians)." (Quran, 004:156-159)

In the Bible, Jesus IS God and man. God and Allah cannot be the same, because Islam denies Jesus.




smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 10:53 AM

Yes, they are like your brothers the Jews in rejecting Jesus as God.

surreyman
Surreyman  (Level: 260.6 - Posts: 2770)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 10:55 AM

Nothing there that says Allah is not God.
Islam denies Jesus was divine, that's all.
They just don't believe in your version of one Abrahamic prophet's divinity - as you don't believe Mohammad was divine.
That's why you're a Jesus Christ(ian).
If you can't either understand or handle that, so be it.
I give up.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 10:55 AM

But the Jews do believe in the Trinity - God the Father, God the Son (the Messiah), and God the Holy Spirit. They just don't all accept Jesus as that Messiah, though some Jews have accepted Jesus as Messiah.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 11:10 AM

Not so sure about your trinitarian Jews. Thought they were pretty firmly in the unitarian camp. My impression of the Messiah is that he is to be a great warrior king. The Christian Messiah and the Jewish Messiah are not very much alike; many Jews believe there have been many messiahs.

I'm not sure the "spirit" of YHWH isn't just a way of referring to his manifestation, not as a separate/not-separate entity:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_ghost#Judaism

garrybl
Garrybl  (Level: 279.5 - Posts: 6639)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 11:11 AM

Now you've got me really mad.

That last comment might have been the most offensive and insulting I've ever seen on this this or any other thread.
No Jews believe in Jesus as the Messiah --and if you post more threads along those lines you will alienate a lot of players on this site.

Please do not write comments like that again.

Barry

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 11:17 AM

No point in being mad, Barry, it's a simple matter of misinformation.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 11:21 AM

Well, I'm sorry to offend you. The "Jews for Jesus" don't exist to offend anyone either.

http://www.jews-for-jesus.org/

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 11:24 AM

Jank, Jews for Jesus is like Baptists for Allah. Once they become Christians, they're not (religiously speaking) Jews anymore.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 11:30 AM

Sigh....

Jews for Jesus is a beautiful name for their organization.

But Jews are also the descendants of Abraham, and when they become a Christian, they don't cease to be descendants of Abraham.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 11:36 AM

Might sound prettier to you than to not-for-Jesus Jews. Just sayin'.

"Jews for Jesus is a Christian evangelistic organization that focuses specifically on the conversion of Jews to Christianity. Its members consider themselves to be Jewish — either Jewish as defined by Jewish law, or Jews according to Jews for Jesus — as "living out their Jewishness." Jews for Jesus defines "Jewish" in terms of parentage and as a birthright, regardless of religious belief. The identification of Jews for Jesus as a Jewish organization is overwhelmingly rejected by Jewish religious denominations and secular Jewish groups due to the Christian - specifically evangelical - beliefs of its members. The group's evangelical activities are opposed also by some Christian organizations and scholars."

This is a fringe group, some would say cult, and hardly a proof of Jewish trinitarianism.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 11:38 AM

And I was wondering, when do Islamic descendants of Abraham cease to be descendants of Abraham?

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 11:40 AM

Exactly, Donna. You proved my point in their quote.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 11:43 AM

Your point was that Muslims don't worship the same god you do.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 11:43 AM

Islam being DNA descendant sof Abraham doesn't mean they kept belief in the same God. Islam says (as quoted above) that the god they worship is not the God of the Jews or Christians because YHWY is Trinity, and Allah is not. And the Quran even says it is blasphemy to say Allah is trinity.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 11:46 AM

They did keep the same god, they just didn't split him into three. Neither did the Jews, your other brothers.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 11:48 AM

You are arguing in circles.

The truth there and many things to read.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 11:52 AM

Maybe so. It's hard to pin you down.

You made a lot of claims but you haven't backed them up don't appear to be able to.

Three things I do know:

Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same god in their myriad ways.

Jews are not trinitarians.

I'm bored.

leaston
Leaston  (Level: 42.6 - Posts: 839)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 11:55 AM

“I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is.”

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 11:56 AM

If quoting directly from the Quran isn't enough backing up for you or being pinned down enough, then the problem here is not with me, and your usual demand to have the last word will happen with just one more post.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 11:59 AM

Oh - and my own final word. Jesus and his family were Jews. The disciples were Jews. They believed in the trinity, as quoted discussed several places in the Old Testiment.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 2:03 PM

Surreyman
Islam denies Jesus was divine, that's all.

That's all ?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PS
The cricket's going well isn't it ?

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 2:33 PM

Jesus aside, I don't see how one can seriously deny that all three religions have common roots based on a common deity.



caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 2:46 PM

I don't argue religion as know little about any of them. Just seems to me though that if anyone follows your logic, Smoke, and puts "Jesus Aside' they have pretty much lost the Christianianity link thing dunno just makes sense to me

uturntama
Uturntama  (Level: 51.0 - Posts: 179)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 3:07 PM

Gosh......this whole thing has gone too far. No Barry, a troll did not take over my machine. It was the HOLY SPIRIT, you know......your conscious. I know I would not be sober today without becoming a new creation in our Lord Jesus Christ. I tried many secular programs to no avail. You cannot tell me you do not think we are living in end times. The world is a mess and is only getting worse. One day Jesus will appear out of the clouds, in the twinkling of an eye and y'all better be ready. Prepare your heart today people. Do you believe in life insurance???? This is for eternity where you will dwell in a haven of no sickness, strife, war. Anyone that doesn't want to be apart and wants to continually argue is nuts!

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 3:10 PM

I have to agree. One can't start any theological debate with the words "Jesus aside", anymore than one could stating "Muhammad aside". As a part of the trinity Jesus is, to christians, a part of their god concept and understanding. OK, it may be totally ridiculous and illogical, but that's what they believe. There is no way the christian god and the islamic god are compatible with one another.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 3:39 PM

Didn't say the concepts were compatible, plenty of evidence to the contrary, I said they had common roots.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 3:46 PM

Okay got my answer. Now post again and you will get your usual last word

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 3:50 PM

Look, start here. I'm halfway through it and it's what made me join the thread.

http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-God-Robert-Wright/dp/0316734918/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247946343&sr=8-1

All I've been trying to say is that all three religions DEVELOPED from a common concept of the almighty, however politically and philosophically fractured and schismed it's become over the centuries. They are the top of a wide range of belief systems evolved from that one source.

I'll say more when I've done the book.

salzypat
Salzypat  (Level: 156.3 - Posts: 5315)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 4:15 PM

Everyone can argue about how the earth was formed, if there is a Supreme Being and whether Jesus was a human prophet or the divine son of God. The truth is, none of us will ever KNOW without a doubt the answer to those questions until it is too late.

To me, religion can be summed up in these verses:

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." (NIV, John 13:34-35)

This is not referring to the sexual love that our world puts high value on today, but on the love we have for one another as individuals, as creations of God. It commands us to love the unloveable, the poor, the sick, the homeless. We are told to see Christ in others and to treat that person as we would treat Christ, the son of God.

It is really very simple - and yet terribly hard.





goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 5:51 PM

"Okay got my answer. Now post again and you will get your usual last word "

Pot meet kettle.

uturntama
Uturntama  (Level: 51.0 - Posts: 179)
Sat, 18th Jul '09 7:39 PM

CLEVER: If you want to worship a Nazarine, chippy, political agitator.......you go ahead sunshine.....you are gonna get it for that one Clever. We are all held accountable to him for our actions and thoughts. "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" Jesus said as he hung from the cross. Clever means intelligent.................hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sun, 19th Jul '09 12:22 AM

Uturntama
CLEVER: If you want to worship a Nazarine, chippy, political agitator.......you go ahead sunshine.....you are gonna get it for that one Clever. We are all held accountable to him for our actions and thoughts. "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" Jesus said as he hung from the cross. Clever means intelligent.................hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

If "he" don't get me i'm sure the Klingons will. I do not have one scintilla of fear of your imaginary friend, not one.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sun, 19th Jul '09 12:22 AM

Uturntama
CLEVER: If you want to worship a Nazarine, chippy, political agitator.......you go ahead sunshine.....you are gonna get it for that one Clever. We are all held accountable to him for our actions and thoughts. "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" Jesus said as he hung from the cross. Clever means intelligent.................hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

If "he" don't get me i'm sure the Klingons will. I do not have one scintilla of fear of your imaginary friend, not one.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 19th Jul '09 3:04 AM

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom..." (Proverbs 1:7).

garrybl
Garrybl  (Level: 279.5 - Posts: 6639)
Sun, 19th Jul '09 4:38 AM

If we are going to get into quotations, my favorite is:

'Better to keep silent and be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt'

I'd add a smiley face but Marsha might disapprove.

Barry

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Sun, 19th Jul '09 5:33 AM

Marsha? How did Marsha get into this thread? Believe she has done what you said in the part about keeping he mouth shut. Either way she is not a fool. Neither is she mean. I didn't try to talk about something I knew nothing about-not saying nonbelievers do- so don't go there. I was attempted to be made to look foolish and was accused of "trolling"-thought all threads were open to all people to at least read. I pointed out in my "trolling" that certain people in this case one took disagreement out of the realm of the theoretical and bought it down to the catty nasty personal level. The person I pointed out here does it often but she is not alone nor is the trait limited to females. Also was "mocked" for pointing out when logic was not logic. That is how things work here though as Marsha had not said a word here but Barry brings to his mind something that she did in the past that obviously annoyed him. My belief is if folks here would limit snide remarks to the theories or public figures, things would not escalate into the personal nastiness they do her. But then I'm not in charge. Yep, get it- Linda

didb72
Didb72  (Level: 209.6 - Posts: 243)
Sun, 19th Jul '09 7:05 AM

If I don't overstretch myself, Barry has just quoted Mark Twain...

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Sun, 19th Jul '09 7:20 AM

Yes, that was where is quote originated but why the remark about Marsha (1mks) objecting to the smiley face?? Obviously it is something left over from another thread as many, asides and comments here are and that is when the trouble starts if anyone dares notice-Linda.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sun, 19th Jul '09 9:58 AM

As we're doing quotes.........
Gene Roddenberry We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sun, 19th Jul '09 10:11 AM

"Men never commit evil so fully and joyfully as when they do it for religious convictions."

Blaise Pascal

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sun, 19th Jul '09 10:49 AM

Thomas Jefferson .........I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sun, 19th Jul '09 10:58 AM

A "Dueling Jefferson Quotes" debate broke out between an atheist and a Christian on imdb soapbox once. It was hilarious.

With statesmen and politicians, you can never be sure they really mean the things they say about religion.


fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.0 - Posts: 240)
Sun, 19th Jul '09 8:26 PM

Ok, this was said earlier...

But Allah is the same God that, presumably, you worship via a different name and through totally different avenues.

Sorry, this is simply not true. This is only argued by those who are not of either faith, or by those in the faith who just simply don't know what they believe. Yes, Islam believes Jesus was a prophet, but that's it. Christians believe He was much more. Jesus is GOD. Ask a muslim if he thinks Jesus is God and see what kind of response you get.

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.0 - Posts: 240)
Sun, 19th Jul '09 8:43 PM

Garrybl, there ARE Jewish people who believe in the Trinity. They're now Christians, and despite the idiotic remarks of a few on here, their heritage has not changed.

If you're looking for a good Jefferson quote, here's one:

Sir, no nation has ever yet existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be. The Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man, and I as chief magistrate of this nation am bound to give it the sanction of my example.



fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.0 - Posts: 240)
Sun, 19th Jul '09 8:49 PM

Smoke, among the several nutty things you have said here, the Jews for Jesus organization is far from fringe or cultish. You're just trying to talk about something you don't know. As a supporter of this group, having met many of them, having friends who are part of this group, I actually KNOW something about this group, instead of relying on wiki. Your ignorance is very apparent.

Clever, I think you have completely removed all doubt, just as Twain said. Maybe you should close your mouth now, for your benefit and ours.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sun, 19th Jul '09 10:09 PM

Thank you for calling me nutty and ignorant, those are two I haven't had before, always nice to add to the collection.

To elucidate: as far as most JEWS are concerned, Jews for Jesus are a fringe cult of heretics.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 19th Jul '09 10:26 PM

Donna, when were you empowered, as a non-believer, and as a non-Jew, to speak for ALL Jews?

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 19th Jul '09 10:29 PM

Sorry - or even "most"?

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sun, 19th Jul '09 10:32 PM

Don't be thick, Jank. Of course I'm not claiming that.

Whenever I post anything about anything, I'm guessing you can extrapolate that I'm speaking for myself, not for any official organization or religion.

Not to put to fine a point on it, but if making it impossible for me to post is your goal, you're edging into Extremely Tedious.

Again:

IN MY OPINION, BASED ON MODERATELY, RELATIVELY EXTENSIVE READING EVEN BEYOND WIKIPEDIA etc. etc...



jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 19th Jul '09 10:33 PM

Oh. So "words mean something" only applies to me? I see. A different standard is set for me.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sun, 19th Jul '09 10:36 PM

WELL into Extremely Tedious.

I only stopped home to pick up a dog. I'm going back to the Flaming Lips party.

Have a blessed evening.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 19th Jul '09 10:36 PM

You are such a well-read woman. Nobody would ever deny that.

But you see, we are believers, and we live the life, and we know the people. Experience with people involved, with believers, goes way beyond what is written in a book - especially when one mostly makes up one's mind, and then only reads materials written by others who have made up their minds, who have an agenda as their goal, rather than the truth.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Sun, 19th Jul '09 10:39 PM

Hey, I see you got your stealth working, good for you.

garrybl
Garrybl  (Level: 279.5 - Posts: 6639)
Mon, 20th Jul '09 12:19 AM

Jank if you can post from a believing Jew who accepts that members of Jews for Jesus are Jews, and not Christians, I'll concede the point. (There are plenty of convertred Jews who will say that -- that is not the same).

If you understand the size of the rifts between orthodox and liberal Jews, you can only imagine what it feels like when you post comments about those who deny the fundamental tenet of Judaism. It is really not appreciated.

Barry

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 20th Jul '09 12:48 AM

Draino, it is not my ignorance on display here. But then how could you possibly know that I’ve been reading about J4J for at least 30 years? That I’ve spent many years observing the growth of various sects and cults, and watching the creeping Christianization of politics and public life, because it is of keen personal interest to me? Or that I’ve independently studied comparative religions for decades and at one time seriously considered the Unitarian Universalist ministry? Of course you have no way to know those things about me, and alas, how could you, I am not listed in Wikipedia.

If I were you’d discover that I taught a unit on Creating Your Own Religion for a religious education program at my church over 25 years ago, inviting guests to speak to the kids (5th-7th grades) from J4J, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Nation of Islam and Scientologists, over several weeks. We also took the class to services at churches, temples and meetinghouses of several denominations. It was a major undertaking, a huge responsibility, and I did my homework.

What I gleaned from my research on J4J (which had to be done at the library in those days) but didn’t share with the class, was an impression of a focused, purpose-driven, even predatory evangelical campaign to adapt Christianity to accommodate the cultural yearnings of Jews, so they didn’t have to give up their happy childhood traditions of dreidels and menorahs, they could go to synagogue without getting in trouble at church, and their families would be less upset and maybe not disown them, though many did. Brilliant marketing, and not even original. it follows the pattern laid down by the early Christian church of co-opting popular existing holidays to make the new religion palatable to the convert.

At the same time the class was going on, I managed a Jewish deli in Elkins Park PA, a largely Jewish suburb of Philadelphia; I talked to many, many Jews about J4J, and to every single one without exception it was anathema. They did everything but spit, and I imagine they’d have done that if they weren’t in a restaurant.

Based on this personal experience and my readings, discussions and observations since, I do not think mainstream Jews have a very tolerant opinion of J4J, and I feel safe in saying they consider them a fringe cult, and that’s on a generous day. No practicing Jew I know of or have ever talked to believes that J4J are religiously Jews. Quite a few Christians don’t think they’re Christians, either. Sounds kinda fringe-y to me right there.

I consider myself fairly knowledgeable about many religions. I’m not hostile to religion or its practitioners, only to its failings and excesses. I don’t hate believers or their faith, only the awful things some of them justify in the name of faith. That’s why that one particular quote had resonance for me.

I’d likewise appreciate it if you’d confine your opinions to what you know. You don’t know me.



uturntama
Uturntama  (Level: 51.0 - Posts: 179)
Mon, 20th Jul '09 1:33 AM

Clever: So you quote Gene Roddenberry and Thomas Jefferson. At least you won't be lonely in hell. AND there's awful BIG knats down there.

uturntama
Uturntama  (Level: 51.0 - Posts: 179)
Mon, 20th Jul '09 1:37 AM

And even bigger gnats!

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Mon, 20th Jul '09 2:37 AM

Mighty christian of you.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 20th Jul '09 8:55 AM

So how did the discussion go, Dave?

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Mon, 20th Jul '09 9:09 AM

I wasn't allowed to actually "lie". For instance, i couldn't claim to have had any "miraculous" experience. I deflected and used well hackneyed dogma for as long as i could, but i couldn't argue with reason. To be honest, as you former colonials would say, "i sucked". it was argument i didn't mind losing.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 20th Jul '09 9:46 AM

It's very hard to defend an argument you don't believe. Toughest part of debate no matter what the subject. I might do okay with that one, though, still have all the talking points from years ago when I used to let the door-knockers in and debate with them.

davidf
Davidf  (Level: 102.1 - Posts: 746)
Mon, 20th Jul '09 10:33 AM

If it helps anyone, I know the key to the door to the house to the home where we can be judged and find our actions questioned.

It transgresses all religions and yet has a place in them,

I think most of you already know it and have it

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 20th Jul '09 10:38 AM

My Sploofus password?

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.0 - Posts: 240)
Wed, 22nd Jul '09 11:43 PM

BTW, the majority of the early CHRISTIAN church were converted Jews, i.e., Jews for Jesus.

barnierubble
Barnierubble  (Level: 93.9 - Posts: 637)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 2:07 PM

I managed to read half the posts here before I realized just how boring it is to read other peoples opinions on a subject they know little or nothing about.


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