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goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 7:33 AM

RACISM?

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/23/officer.gates.arrest/index.html

The fact that the man said "no, I will not" when asked to step outside right away gives me the impression that he was not being cooperative. His screaminig about a "black man in America" was witnessed by many people, including citizens on the street. Do you think he was being unruly?
I think the fact that the officer is now being accused of being racist for doing his job is a ridiculous. It appears that the professor is the racist.



caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 7:44 AM

Yes, and even more "ridiculous" is the President weighing in and saying the Cambridge police acted "stupidly" He was not there and it is not uncommon for a public figure to answer witbh "no comment" at least until he gets the facts..

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 7:51 AM

It's not unusual for Presidents to speak without all the facts, aren't we all painfully aware of that? That said, I don't agree with his statement either.

salzypat
Salzypat  (Level: 156.3 - Posts: 5315)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 7:51 AM

I agree, Goddess.

I suspect there is more to the story than is contained in this report.

To complicate the situation, for President Obama to make a comment on a local matter -- without knowing all the facts -- is clearly out of line.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 7:56 AM

The professor was also asked if there was anyone else in the house and the officer was told it was "none of his business." The officer states he recieved a call that there were two people, and if the gentleman lived there, were there two people in the house he didn't know about. It just makes sense.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 8:02 AM

I dunno, Sher. Like the president, I wasn't there and I don't know what went on. I can imagine a scenario that justifies either side.

IF it's true that the professor showed proof that he was in his own house, it should have ended there if the cop was checking for a burglar. Even if the prof was pissy, if the cop was looking for a burglar and the man proved he lived there, game over. I never heard of getting arrested for disorderly conduct in your own house.

The real shame is that he was ever asked about it; this has been opportunistically pounced on like a crippled mouse, to drive the news cycle and distract attention from the health care issue.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 8:04 AM

I agree it should have ended there, but the cop was told two people broke in, so I can see why he would ask him to step outside for safety sake.

salzypat
Salzypat  (Level: 156.3 - Posts: 5315)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 8:06 AM

Think what a stink there would have been had the officer not inquired further as to how many were in the house and then something happened to the professor. Do you think the white officer would have been called a racist for not responding seriously to an issue concerning the safety of a black man?

I think this officer is in a no-win situation.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 8:10 AM

You may be right. Like I say ... I wasn't there and can't say.

You know we hardly ever agree on police behavior.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 8:10 AM

I found it interesting that the officer is an expert on racial profiling and even teaches a class to other officers.

surreyman
Surreyman  (Level: 260.6 - Posts: 2770)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 8:16 AM

This is a trouble with most "racism" laws per se.
By all means prosecute strongly for any actions of violence, inequality, wrongful arrest etc., whatever their reasons.
But as soon as there are specific "racism" tags to laws, one can get all this crying foul.
We have more than enough of this rubbish in the UK also.
... And now I suppose I'm being racist?

achad
Achad  (Level: 204.2 - Posts: 661)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 8:22 AM

Same scenario but...... black cop and pissy white prof. Would that be getting so much attention?

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 8:24 AM

The professor if nothing else was an "elitist". The cop did not arrest him for breaking and entering but for disorderly conduct. He was screaming insults from on his porch. Wuth Obama weighing in without the facts see this going the way of the Rodney King thing which then resulted in the OJ verdict. HE is the President of all Americans not just Black Americans or that is his claim at least,

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 8:32 AM

I think if the cop was racial profiling, he would have drawn his weapon and put the man on the floor as soon as he saw a black man....as that is what was called in...two black men breaking and entering.

wordster
Wordster  (Level: 159.4 - Posts: 910)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 8:37 AM

I agree with you smoke. I am currently only a stone's throw from Cambridge, Mass. This subject came up in conversation with a group of friends last night. Nobody could come up with a clear conclusion because we didn't know all of the facts. Most of us though were sympathetic towards Prof. Gates. Charging Gates with that kind of offense seems somewhat officious. I fail to see what was gained by this arrest. It seems that both of them could have tried to 'think outside of the box" a little. Once he identified himself that should have been the end of it.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 8:39 AM

I agree with "once he identified himself" but.....there were supposedly two people. Does the officer not have an obligation to see if there are any intruders just because one person can show they live there?

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 8:46 AM

Charges were dropped. But police have been killed, too. The president knows the professor, the policeman did not.

The police have a standard set of instructions they give suspects. It is always standard procedure to ask the owner to step out of the house - if someone did break in, they could still be in there. If the professor was getting all unruly, it's a lot more difficult to just make sure no one was in the house who shouldn't be, since there had been the other call.

Also, police have learned the hard way that the owner could have his own gun inside. It's just standard procedure to secure all involved from any potential danger or dangerous actions.

I would never mouth at a police officer. Just follow the drill and it's all over soon.

Obviously the neighbor was worried or they wouldn't have called the police in the first place. This kind of very public problem could cause future neighbors to just not call the police when they see something suspicious.

All the professor should have done is step out of the house, show his ID, and it all would have been over. There was absolutely no reason for the race card to be played. There are enough actual racist actions by police and others to make public without creating one for no reason.

This was ONLY brought up because the professor is a friend of the president. The president handled it unprofessionally and brought up the race card himself. I'm guessing a lot of the "stupid" police officers voted for him. They may not again.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 8:49 AM

If that one person told the cop he'd just broken into his own house because he didn't have his keys and then proved his identity? Hard to say.

Cop: We're looking for someone breaking into this house.
Prof: That was me, officer, I lost my keys.
Cop: May I see some ID?
Prof: Sure, here you go.
Cop: Thanks very much, prof, have a nice evening.
Prof: Thanks, officer.

Cop: FREEZE, Bubba! What are you doing in this neighborhood?
Prof: But it's my ...
Cop: SHUT UP, PERP! FEET BACK AND SPREAD "EM!
Prof: HELP! POLICE BRUTALITY!
Cop: You're coming downtown, wise guy.

The truth is out there, somewhere in between. Time will tell.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 8:54 AM

Just maybe all those other instances of brutality and racism you speak of have contributed in some small way to the professor's defensiveness and sense of outrage.

Perhaps you have to spend your whole life being eyeballed by cops when you're doing nothing wrong to "get it".

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 8:58 AM

The arrest was for disorderly conduct not breaking and entering. The Black Caucus has now weighed in with something like this country has a long way to go. The story has become much bigger than the professor and the cop. Anyone who does not see that is not looking. That same Black Caucus has come out against he Blue Dog Democrats-mainly repensenting rural conservative areas-accusing them of holding up health care. Don't know if they have actually called their fellow Dems racist but certainly implied. The professor and 3 cops and some witness neighbors were there and EVERYONE else was not

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 9:20 AM

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates1.html

Here is the police report. You decide. I am siding with the officer, if it had been me...I would have been arrested too.

mplaw51
Mplaw51  (Level: 179.5 - Posts: 1582)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 9:27 AM

I'll have to weigh in with Smoke on this one. It may be possible that this professor was hurling some choice words about black men in America and the police officer saw red and took the matter into his own hands. Two wrongs don't make it right and the arrest likely shouldn't have occurred. The training that policemen should be receiving should help them discern when to take the appropriate action. Might doesn't make right.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 9:30 AM

"Alan McDonald, who represents Sgt. James Crowley, said the veteran cop who teaches a racial profiling class for rookie police officers has not ruled out filing a defamation of character or libel lawsuit."

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=8163051&page=1

Looks like he is considering his own lawsuit against the professor.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 10:27 AM

The #1 job of the police is to get the situation in control.

In real life, if someone is mouthing off at someone, my first instinct is that they're trying to cover up something, which would immediately put me on guard.

Now - I wouldn't get all huffy at school with a student who did it, but the police aren't babysitters.
Their #2 job is to ensure safety for everyone concerned.
Their #3 job is to PROTECT THE POTENTIAL CRIME SCENE from being tainted and find out the truth. That's ALL hard to do with someone mouthing at you. Plus, criminals caught by police generally don't start telling the truth.

If you were breaking into a house, you might be doing so because you stole someone's wallet and had all their information. The police have to make sure you are the rightful owner of the wallet. That's a difficult thing to find out with someone being uncooperative.

Usually, I would think if it was the true homeowner, he would say - THANK YOU FOR COMING QUICKLY AND PROTECTING MY PROPERTY. This guy didn't say thank you. He acted like a criminal hiding something. I believe anyone who is trained and has experience with these situations day in and day out would have done exactly the same thing.

The officer HAS to follow his protocol. He doesn't have the option of choosing not to follow it. Criminals get off on technicalities all the time because some officer didn't follow protocol.

We're expressing opinions from the perspective of hindsight. The officers didn't know this professor personally or his reputation. And if I were the officer, initially I'd be working from the direction that the person who called in the report KNEW what his neighbor looked like and wouldn't have called about a break-in unless they felt certain it was not the homeowner.)

As I say, there are tons of actual racist situations that truly should be brought to the spotlight so they can get rid of bad cops. In this case, someone was manipulating and trying to just divide the people on a national forum and based on past experiences or experiences of others he knew, the president took the bait.

It's got to be a hard thing being called stupid by the president on national TV for just doing your job and following protocol.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 10:28 AM

He didn't call him stupid, he said the police acted stupidly in arresting Gates. I agree.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 10:37 AM

I disagree...If I had done what Gates did, they would have arrested me too, and I would have deserved it.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 10:45 AM

Then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

And I really mean that.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 10:55 AM

I don't have much respect for that professor now, either. I don't know anyone of high education that starts throwing "yo mama" comments at police who are trying to figure out the truth.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 11:02 AM

"ELITIST" at best, Professor!!

tuzilla
Tuzilla  (Level: 133.9 - Posts: 3777)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 12:11 PM

How'd all these kangaroos get in here???

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 12:13 PM

McDonalds. But I didn't Snopes it so don't quote me.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 12:38 PM

Kangaroos judgng the professor, the cops or Obama???

tuzilla
Tuzilla  (Level: 133.9 - Posts: 3777)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 12:41 PM

yes (hops off)

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 1:22 PM

"I don't have much respect for that professor now, either. I don't know anyone of high education that starts throwing "yo mama" comments at police who are trying to figure out the truth."

I agree with that statement. He seemed to be trying desperately to elicit a reaction.



caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 1:57 PM

Unless either this professor or the cop sues or both this will never be a court matter. Obama put it out in the biggest court of all-public opinion. If anyone is a huge kangaroo it would see he is as he voiced an opinion without the facts-jury was in by his thinking. Believe that is the philosophy that runs a kangaroo court

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 117.7 - Posts: 1745)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 1:57 PM

Goddess this is not the first time you and I are on same page. I read the police report and sounds to me like he was deliberately provoking the police. I am no big fan of police, I believe they usurp their authority in many instances, but not this time. The professor was clearly thinking he was somebody special and that he was above the law. If he had just followed instructions for his own safety he would not have been arrested. The officer was attempting to leave the residence when Gates was arrested and beforehand warned several times about his disorderly conduct. Clearly the race card was being played and I am disappointed in President's comment on a local issue regarding race when he didn't have the facts. Makes me wonder about him, and that is not good.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 2:01 PM

I agree with Linda.

Obama's remarks appear to be the most irresponsible. He stated, incorrectly I believe, that Gates produced ID and then went on to offer us the typical liberal view of racism by the police officer which apparently did not figure in this case.

asor
Asor  (Level: 155.7 - Posts: 589)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 2:04 PM

As usual, Smoke is making the most sense to me. One doesn't have to be African American to understand the frustration so many feel at constantly being sized up as a potential threat or menace. In our little country town, a black attorney was pulled over on her way home from work because she was driving a Mercedes and some nimrod assumed it was stolen.Hence, the "driving while black" statements.Should the professor have handled the situation more calmly? I'm sure we all agree he could have. However, having just gotten back from a trip, finding himself unable to enter his home, and then being assumed to be a burglar rather than the rightful homeowner could certainly add up to a high level of frustration for anyone--and especially for someone who has long felt targeted. The Cambridge police, from what I understand, have a history of suspicion and even hostility toward black residents; I don't think we can ignore that context.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 117.7 - Posts: 1745)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 2:10 PM

I was not aware of Cambridge police dept. history. My comment was going off the police report directly. I was reading the officer's words. I can understand the frustration involved in being accosted by police in your own home. I have had unpleasant encounters with police (unfortunately) so I am not a big police advocate. I think both parties involved could have used some smarts and I like the term "thinking outside the box". The whole thing seems to have been blown out of proportion, and yes I always admire Smokes diplomacy.


goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 2:21 PM

Thanks for the link.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 2:29 PM

Don't lets the facts of this case confuse you, Asor.

asor
Asor  (Level: 155.7 - Posts: 589)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 2:33 PM

I know, it's that danged thinking again! When am I ever going to learn???!

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 2:50 PM

Goddess, Thanks for the report.

It’s still the police officers version against Professor Gates version. No matter how disruptive Professor Gates was being outside his property what Professor Gates did was not a crime. It was his property he was on. The caveat is the case was dropped. Why?

First of all, the sensitivity training the cop had obviously has been of no avail. THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS TO BLACK MEN AMERICA, EVERYDAY. What is wrong with an elderly, disabled, Black professional man after being humiliated in his own residence being irate; especially after he showed his ID. My ex-husband would have hit the ceiling had that happened to us. Had he been docile and a subservient step-it-fecit I’m almost positive the police would not have resorted to an arrest. Professor Gates and President Obama are educated men who know their rights and will not bow to pre civil war and Jim Crow tactics.

Secondly, racial profiling exits within the US. I’m so glad our President spoke out on this issue as it needs a lot more attention. Do you think our President; a Blackman, would have been treated the same way if the secret service weren’t around? Hell, the President can’t even flag a cab, stop the cops from pulling him over because his car is too fancy, or walk in a white suburb and not be stopped because he looks suspicious., really just anything that is so typical in racial profiling; i.e. institutional racism. I hope you’d realize Blacks and other minorities don’t wake –up looking to be racially profiled as you claim. Black people wake-up to drink their java and want to live and work towards a productive life just like other Americans.

Thirdly, as Linda said, this has morphed into a distraction on the HRC. Of course, Linda will not agree that the media and folks like loopy Lou Dobs, Glen Beck are p—ing their pants with glee. Since they’ve expounded what it’s like to live in their Neverland, the Party of No can only obstruct, lie, and obscure facts. I can't understand the idiots in America who are being fed President Obama wasn’t born America actually believe it . Next thing they’re going to Push is he’s an undercover brother from another planet. When that stupid mass of people do wake up with more rising premiums, less quality care and possibly even bankruptcy maybe, just maybe then, they’ll learn something.
It’s time for America to get over its birth defect; racism. Republiklans need to accept that a Black man is running it. Thank You, Mr. President for speaking out we need this dialogue.





caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 2:54 PM

Yes, indeed time for America toi move on. As Obama just said -as close as he is going to get to an apology- that he wished he could recalibrate his response-picked the wrong "PIG" this tiime

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 3:01 PM

Linda, I think the president meant recalibrate his response because the "PIG" picked to racial profile.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 3:11 PM

your words make absolutely no sense when one considers the facts, Beverly.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 3:17 PM

Linda, how can you say that when the police handcuffed Professor Gates after it was discovered it was his property? Please-e-e

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 3:17 PM

As is often the case the folks shouting "'racist" the loudest are themselves the racists.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 3:35 PM

That would include you. You said Judge Sotomayer is a racist.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 3:40 PM

Wrong again, Beverly, but thanks for playing.

Quite obviously the person in this case who racially profiled was Prof Gates himself.

Do the math.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 3:40 PM

Beliieve Andy like the majority of the American people said he thought Sotomayor's words were racist- I include myself in this majority but also among that majority who do not believe she should sit on the highest court but resigned to the fact that, she will.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 3:49 PM

Collioure, why can't you accept the truth? Why must you always be right when you are dead wrong? Professor Gates and the police report have two versions you need to research; one report (2) two stories. Now, you do the math.


Linda why don't you want her seated?

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 3:51 PM

The word "stupid" has now been used by one Sploofus member in this thread against many of us.

That's two times too many in the past 24 hours.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 3:56 PM

Beverly, I'll stick with my view as to who racially profiled. All the stories seem to make that quite clear.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 3:56 PM

When the recording is finally released, we'll all know the truth.

I guess police should record every call even away from their car.

That process would help weed out the truly bad officers and exonerate those who are falsely accused.

By the way, the officer in charge TEACHES a racial profile class - he doesn't deserve what was said above.

"Lowell Police Academy Director Thomas Fleming described Crowley to the Boston Herald as "very professional" and a "good role model." Fleming also said Crowley was hand-picked to teach the class by former Cambridge Police Commissioner Ronny Watson, who is black."

"It was inappropriate to use the situation to implicate the history of racism in America. This had nothing to do with race and everything to do with Gates' behavior," McDonald said.

"Crowley said when he first encountered Gates on the day of the arrest, he asked Gates to step outside of the home because a witness reported seeing more than one person trying to gain access to the home and that he feared for his safety."

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/20156852/detail.html

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 3:59 PM

Thank you Jan, I have said that twice now and no one seems to notice.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 4:03 PM

Jan,
I'm not calling you stupid. I quite sure you know that President Obama was not born in Kenya. You also know a naturalized citizen can't be President. Stupid, ignorant, sheepish, people do though. No sploofus member is that stupid.

Sploofus Editor
(Editor)  
Fri, 24th Jul '09 4:05 PM

Please!

I do not like or want to nuke this thread. Therefore, I must please ask, in the nicest non-confrontational way, that this thread please take a step back, take a deep breath, and ratchet down the level of rhetoric.



bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 4:07 PM

Goddess,
I'm surprised and sorry you feel that way.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 4:08 PM

Beverly - just for the record. A black man is not running America.

1. President is as much white as he is black.
2. President Obama is pushing the agenda, but he is in no way in charge of the country. He can sign bills, he can veto them. He can push hard for what he wants.
3. President Obama was not elected king or tyrant or dictator or benevolent dictator. He was only elected president.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 4:13 PM

I believe Judge Sotomayor is not the most qualified person for the job. She describes herself as an "affirmative action" baby admmiting to the fact that she scored lower than her fellow clasmates. I think she was an "affirmative action'" pick for the court and maybe some before her have been too. I would like to be pleasantly surprised an have her decide using law and not race nor gender for her rulings

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 4:43 PM

Jan,
The president, any president for that matter, is the one ultimately in charge as CIC. Unless Congress has a 2/3 majority to override his veto he then becomes powerless against his agenda. In President Obama case this is not going to happen. We won.

Secondly, if President Obama is as much white as he is Black then who do you account for the backlash for those who see him as an elitist, uppity, Blackman only? Hell, Rush Limbaugh made one of the most stupid remarks ever. He called President Obama an angry, Black man, with a chip on his shoulder. President Obama is a very humble man.

Finally, I totally disagree with you. Many people on this site, as well as others and the media have made preposterous assertions of him being this very thing you deny. I don't recall if you have called President Obama king, messiah, the one, celebrity, Rock Star racist, tyrant, red comrade, or dictator etc. He is the elected president; yet, so many people disrespect the Black side of him.


goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 4:46 PM

I don't even care that he spoke about this...the situations exists with or without him. This man was intelligent scholar who needed no help from the President in making a fuss. I believe he was wrong and cannot now admit it.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 4:55 PM

There's an old saying, "them that can't do, teach".

Maybe they should have a black officer teach the sensitivity training course.

Just a thought.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 5:00 PM

Speaking as one of the many teachers here, I appreciate that so much.

The black police commissioner chose him. Apparently he, who actually knows the officer in person, believes in him.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 5:01 PM

Well I see we do disagree on this one. Bound to happen sooner or later.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 5:04 PM

What's there to say? The president said he wished he could recalibrae his words. Obama disagreed that he shouldn't have stepped into a local issue at all.

"Race is still a troubling aspect of our society," I stand united behind our President. He suggested that instead of "pumping up the volume," and throwing around allegations and accusations that Americans "spend more time listening to each other" to "see how we can further improve relations. I'm glad we have a president who doesn't turn a blind eye to hypocrisy. Clinton and Bush renounced racial profiling. I'm proud that we have a president who tries to govern in a way that unites.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 5:06 PM

President Obama responded in a press conference on July 24 by stating:

" Because this has been ratcheting up -- and I obviously helped to contribute ratcheting it up -- I want to make clear that in my choice of words, I think, I unfortunately... gave an impression that I was maligning the Cambridge police department or Sergeant Crowley specifically. And I could have calibrated those words differently. And I told this to Sergeant Crowley. I continue to believe, based on what I have heard, that there was an overreaction in pulling Professor Gates out of his home to the station. I also continue to believe, based on what I heard, that Professor Gates probably overreacted as well. My sense is you've got two good people in a circumstance in which neither of them were able to resolve the incident in the way that it should have been resolved and the way they would have liked it to be resolved [...] There are some who say that as President I shouldn’t have stepped into this at all because it’s a local issue. I have to tell you that that part of it I disagree with. The fact that this has become such a big issue I think is indicative of the fact that race is still a troubling aspect of our society. Whether I were black or white, I think that me commenting on this and hopefully contributing to constructive — as opposed to negative — understandings about the issue, is part of my portfolio."

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 5:08 PM

And yet, he goes to other countries and apologizes for the United States.

But he can't simply apologize for saying something offensive.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 5:17 PM

Nice waffle by Obama who misrepresented this case to the American people.

He seems to be having a lot of problem with the truth all of a sudden.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 5:23 PM

He did apologize.

I think you really know I wasn't referring to school teachers, Jank, I've posted many, many times of my respect and admiration for good teachers. I believe the expression originally referred to acting teachers; I only meant to say that the fact that the cop taught a seminar on racial profiling doesn't guarantee he doesn't have any blind spots on the issue.

I agree with the president that both sides overreacted and handled it wrong.

I wasn't there and still haven't heard Professor Gates' side of what happened, so I'll reserve judgment.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 5:31 PM

Please note that the second racial profiler in this affair (after Prof Gates himself) was Obama himself. So much for his personal contribution to improving race relations.

Once again the folks shouting "'racist" the loudest are themselves the racists.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 5:34 PM

Obama also placed the incident within the larger narrative of race relations.

"[B]ecause of our history, because of the difficulties of the past, you know, African-Americans are sensitive to these issues," Obama said. "And even when you've got a police officer who has a fine track record on racial sensitivity, interactions between police officers and the African-American community can sometimes be fraught with misunderstanding. My hope is that as a consequence of this event, this ends up being what's called a teachable moment where all of us, instead of pumping up the volume, spend a little more time listening to each other and try to focus on how we can generally improve relations between police officers and minority communities, and that instead of flinging accusations, we can all be a little more reflective in terms of what we can do to contribute to more unity."

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 5:37 PM

Uh, no, a thousand times no.

Obama is speaking as if this is a case of white police officers profiling black suspects.

It's everything but that, Donna.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 5:39 PM

Maybe that's what you hear because that's what you're listening for.

Not what I hear

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 5:47 PM

You are taking the paragraph out of context.

It could mean something else, but in context with all of his comments, it's unlikely.

I'm going to bed. I've been up since 9am yesterday in Chicago. 31 hrs.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 5:48 PM

I believe Obama knew this question was going to be asked or something close to it as it had reached major coverage by the media. He had received a bit of criticism from the African-American commounity for his speech at the NAACP dinner as many believed he did show strongly enough that he stood with them. I liked this particular speech as I did his one in Africa. It is because who he is in the position he is that he could say that African-American people must take some resonsibiluity for themselves and not fall back constantly on victim mentality. He did not, however, research the arresting officer's record before affirming his stand with African-Americans in his health care speech. Believe there is a group representing throat docs that took offense to is comment that they remove tonsils for the higher fee rather than treat sore throats. dunno that is just how it looks to me

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 5:49 PM

I didn't take anything out of context. Deciding that we know what happened when we don't and making character judgments on either of these men without evidence is irresponsible. Again, I'll wait for both sides.



caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 5:55 PM

Just would like t note that a comment that "We Won" after the decision of the Supreme Courtin the Ricci Case brought total derision from many here-please look back over Beverly's posts as well as the words of Pelosi and Obama ...

fudypatootie
Fudypatootie  (Level: 197.2 - Posts: 1302)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 6:18 PM

Truth is, it doesn't matter who's right or who's wrong in a given situation, if you get loud or smart with a cop, you're likely to get arrested, even in your own home. Some of the comments here make it sound like a person shouldn't get arrested in their own home. Crime happens in people's houses, too, not just out on the street or in some crack house. Get real.

Once when I was still dating my husband, someone gave info to the police about a thief who happened to live across the street from him, but the person got the address wrong and we were subjected to a search. Didn't matter that we were completely innocent, we weren't allowed to even use the bathroom while they searched. When I attempted to do so, I was just about jumped by 4 cops.

Doesn't matter who's innocent, you don't sass a cop and you do what he says.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 117.7 - Posts: 1745)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 6:21 PM

Once again lets alert the media Andy is going to bed. When are you going to stop assuming that everyone at sploofus is so dependent on your contributions?

asor
Asor  (Level: 155.7 - Posts: 589)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 6:23 PM

Should I be concerned that I'm beginning to develop a big ol' crush on Smoke's avatar? Wouldn't normally be my type, but "he" says such intelligent things!



smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 6:27 PM

Go ahead, hon, let the love flow. I've been crushin' on him hard for 10 years.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 6:33 PM

1. Well then, Donna, why don't you print his full remarks instead of a paragraph that can be read at least two ways out of context?

2. BTW you just can't trust our main stream media these days. Professor Gates field of expertise??? Somehow absent from all the articles I've read - African American Studies. Now, my friends, you know "the rest of the story!"

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 6:39 PM

I posted all I found, Andy. And the professor's specialty has been well-reported from what I've seen. He was instantly familiar to me by name in any case, he's been on TV many times and is quite well-known. It appears he's only unknown to his white neighbors and the officers who patrol his neighborhood.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 6:50 PM

Not sure the officer added to his sensitivity credentials by telling his story on the radio this morning - on a sports talk show that was once suspended for comparing black kids waiting for the school bus with an escaped gorilla.

mplaw51
Mplaw51  (Level: 179.5 - Posts: 1582)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 7:02 PM

Why is it assumed that because this police officer was chosen to teach this sensitivity course that he was the most sensitive or most qualified? In the town next to mine, the DARE (Drub Abuse Resistance Education) officer, who went to schools and taught the kids to "just say no" was dealing drugs out of police headquarters. He sure wasn't the right choice and abused the public's trust and the children's as well. Big surprise to all and the chief especially who was caught not knowing what was going down under his nose. Being picked to do a task doesn't automatically make you the gold standard. Just saying...

Sad that this has blown up this way. It points out that racism is alive and well. Andy, to make a statement that our President is a racist is out of line and shows yet again that you read things to get out of them only what you want. You're far more erudite than that.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 7:09 PM

I just think it's ironic that the professor's field of study is race relations but it's the cop being portrayed as the expert.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 7:28 PM

I just find it interesting that a President who was going to transcend Race has because of his bully pulpit comment on an arrest he was clueless about has turned the news cycle since Wednesday to not much of anything except Race..

asor
Asor  (Level: 155.7 - Posts: 589)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 7:42 PM

So much better to pretend the problem doesn't exist. Then we don't have to solve anything!

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 7:51 PM

He knew none of the facts about the arrests. He tookes without the facts. Believe tha was what Tuzilla was referencing with the Kangarooo comment. In a Kangaroo Court the jury is back before the facts are presented. He proved himself the
"Kangaroo in Chief"

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 8:00 PM

my typing tonight worse than bad. Meant to say he took a side without the facts..

asor
Asor  (Level: 155.7 - Posts: 589)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 8:04 PM

Four things you'll never hear in a Kangaroo Court:

“Well, I should say at the outset that [one of the parties] is a friend, so I may be a little biased here.”

“I don't know all the facts.”

“My understanding is at that point…”

“Now, I don't know, not having been there and not seeing all the facts…”


caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 8:19 PM

All those things that you just said being true, he should not have taken sides by ASSuming

asor
Asor  (Level: 155.7 - Posts: 589)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 8:39 PM

A curt "no comment" might have been more politically prudent, but I, for one, am glad he took the opportunity to shine a light on a problem that is far too pervasive. Not talking about things doesn't make them go away.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 9:05 PM

Maureen, I wish there were another way to interpret Obama's remarks. Unfortunately he implied that this was a typical case of racial stereotyping by the police, when in fact the policeman and his actions are above reproach and he himself had racially profiled the policeman.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 9:26 PM

Andy, let me get this straight.

You don't know what racial profiling is! The police man is not a Black person or minority. Racial profiling which has been eased some what in your former state since it was sponsored by the then Illinois Senator Obama because of the racial profiling here. Do you remember when Micheal Jordan's ex-wife, Juanita's family was constantly being profiled by the suburban police in Deerfield, IL whenever they came to visit?

That is an example of what racial stereotyping by the police is. Blacks and minorities should be able to drive, walk, or run, etc in any free country. Comprende?


bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 9:39 PM

Something else I can't understand why did this neighbor not recognize her neighbor?

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 10:49 PM

Here's a look at some of the legal aspects.

http://www.slate.com/id/2223379/

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 10:55 PM

And finally, Professor Gates' story.

http://www.theroot.com/views/skip-gates-speaks

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 11:14 PM

"It looked like someone’s footprint was there. So it’s possible that the door had been jimmied, that someone had tried to get in while I was in China. But for whatever reason, the lock was damaged. My driver hit the door with his shoulder and the door popped open."

This is not what was said the other day when the cop asked him about the door. The cop asked him if the door locked and he said no, said it had been broke for some time and that HE used his shoulder to push the door open.

I dunno....

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 11:20 PM

The main thing I've heard all day that is now really making me agitated is those referring to the professor as elderly.

Good grief - he's 58 years old - 2 years older than I!

I'm going to take my medicines and Ensure and put my dentures to soak and go to bed!

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 11:22 PM

Exactly. We don't know.





salzypat
Salzypat  (Level: 156.3 - Posts: 5315)
Fri, 24th Jul '09 11:44 PM


If I was in the professor's shoes being called elderly would make me madder than anything.

At 58 years old he is 12, almost 13 years younger than me. I just dare any of you to call ME elderly.

Put up your dukes, put 'em up.


bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 12:38 AM

Smoke,
Thank you so for the link I saw the interview on TV; and wanted a reference point to support the one (1) report and two (2) stories; but couldn't find a link. Thank you so much.


I said all along it was racial profiling. However, I if rant until I turn blue-black in the face each of us will maintain our own punditry. One thing is certain 76% of statistics in this country does not deny racial profiling exits for African Americans. No one seems to feel this man's pain or humiliation. I've read several of his books including one of his fictions. After seeing his specials on PBS I can honestly say Professor Gates is apolitical. He is an esteemed scholar interested in displaying African history; which is also American history. Perhaps, he may feel that African history is his destiny. Whatever his penchant may be, this incident is still teaching us more about ourselves as Americans.
.
President Obama has reached a milestone in African history. Why must some people deny that this incident reflects the present stagnation in this country? If the future of this country is to form a more perfect union and the Statue of Liberty, given to US by the French, represents freedom then its time for America to maintain those values. Yes, we have made some progress. But, accusing Professor Gates and our President of interjecting reverse racism is just plain insensitive. Race remains a factor in this society.

As Professor Gates said in his own words..."really it’s not about me—it’s that anybody black can be treated this way, just arbitrarily arrested out of spite. And the man who arrested me did it out of spite, because he knew I was going to file a report because of his behavior. He didn’t follow proper police procedure! You can’t just presume I’m guilty and arrest me. He’s supposed to ask me if I need help. He just presumed that I was guilty, and he presumed that I was guilty because I was black. There was no doubt about that."

Let's not sweep this under the rug. It should be a teaching moment for all of US.


bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 12:58 AM

Jan
58 really isn't old. The Black community is rallying around him, I think, because of his disability. One leg is shorter than the other; and also he had a hip replacement. Professor Gates even told the officer with his hands handcuffed behind his back he wouldn't be able to walk without his cane. sometimes he falls.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 1:13 AM

Goddess

Whether the lock was damaged before or after; he still was arrested unjustifiably according to their state law.


smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 1:38 AM

Let me be clear: I'm NOT saying it was racial profiling. It clearly (and I think understandably) felt like racial profiling to Professor Gates, but we can't know whether Sgt Crowley was more suspicious than he would've been with a white person. Sgt Crowley may not know either. We may suspect that he was biased, but we don't KNOW, and not knowing, I can't say he was. I lean more toward stupid. Rather than racial profiling, I think it was just standard cop ego, and that knows no color. Or gender. Trust me.

I think the professor reacted as his cultural experience and beliefs and have conditioned him to, coupled with jet lag and the confusion of the moment; and I suspect the cop reacted as a cop who wants his authority unquestioningly and immediately deferred to. Like they do.

Much is made of the cop's role as an educator of other officers about profiling. I'm not meaning to be cynical or insulting to the cop to suggest that a primary purpose of that class is to teach cops how not to blow a bust by not making sure there's a legitimate reason to make a stop that does not include race. Like a taillight out or an unbuckled seatbelt. Racial profiling training at a police academy is not the same as race relations sensitivity training. Sgt Crowley may have felt (and it may be true) that he was safely on the right side of the law against profiling, but he misread and mishandled the situation, I think. That doesn't make him a bad guy, it just makes him fallible and imperfect like the rest of us.

In my experience, most of us cannot help a certain level of inborn racial suspicion; we're hard-wired for it, to fear the Other, to ally with those most like us. Also, I think research bears out that instincts play a larger part in our behavior under stress. These are survival instincts built into us and theoretically outgrown long ago, the "vestigial" genetic racism that we use our higher, civilized reasoning and intelligence to overcome.

Some of us overcome it better than others. Some don't even try. Some feed it and fan it and pass it on to their kids. Racism is alive and well and procreating, and it's ridiculous and dangerous to pretend otherwise. And it's on all sides - racism comes in every color people do. If I hate Beverly because her skin is darker than mine, that's racism. If she expects me to hate her because I am white, that's racism. I see both of those attitudes every day.

It's not over just because a black man is in the White House, and it's good that we're talking about it, but I'd rather we waited until health care was done.



collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 2:33 AM

Beverly, you seem not to understand that the term "racial profiling" could mean stereotypical profiling of a white policeman. That's what happened here, first by Prof Gates, then by Barack Obama, who tried to run play 4B from the Political Correctness Handbook and stuck his foot in his mouth bigtime.

This is a very serious gaffe by the President. With his inappropriate remarks (from which he is now backing away in full-time damage control mode) he just wrote off a whole group of voters.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 2:37 AM

Beverly and Donna, IMO your suggestions that Sgt Crowley engaged in racial profiling are ridiculous. This officer acted professionally to protect Prof Gates home from possible criminal activity. Period.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 2:42 AM

Perhaps you didn't read my post. I very specifically did NOT accuse Sgt Crowley of racial profiling.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 2:49 AM

But you suggested such, Donna - and danced all around it.

I understand the professor's state of mind. I just completed an 18-hour journey myself.

Prof Gates racially profiled Sgt Crowley.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 2:53 AM

Yes, Andy, I understand that with you, it's always the minorities who are the REAL racists.

If this is going to be another one of those conversations where YOU tell ME what I'm saying, I'll pass, thanks.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 2:55 AM

He can forget about the news being about hias health care plan for a long time as he has stoked a huge fire from a small flame. He has no one to blame but himself. I personally am glad not to hear more of this health care disaster plans. Every time he talks he has nothing new to say or add or change. Found it interesting that I just saw put out by the DNC blaming Republicans who are not in a position to stop anything. It is being ground to a halt within his own party because they can read the polls and see that the American people think the current proposals SUCK. Think this time he just bet too much on his personal charm.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 3:06 AM

No, Donna, but contrary to the PC Handbook the minorities can also be the racists.

As they were in New Haven.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 3:41 AM

True enough racial profiling does exist in this country. My issue is not whether Crowley was racial profiling. I have taken great indignation to those who want to condemn the first African American president in this country for taking a stance against this problem. The President is not sweeping this problem under the rug. I couldn’t be any more proud of voting for this man who wants to be transformational and try to unify this country plus put a new face on America; especially after Bush and Co did. He did a class act by inviting the two of them to Whitehouse for a brew.
In my opinion, President Obama has bent over backwards to prove he wants to unite. Yet, he has met nothing but smear and opposition. Personally, I wish he would forget about this bipartisanship. It is time for those who wish him doom and gloom to stop this charade about non existent racial profiling as another stall tacit and support the president in one of the worse times of our country’s history. It’s time to get on with the healthcare, and other domestic problems as well as foreign ones.

I don’t expect Crowley to admit that he was racial profiling. If he does admit to this type of insincerity he would probably lose his job; if it was his intention. Crowley is already in hot water for writing a false report. The picture of Professor Gates in hand cuffs and a dubious Police report has spoken volumes. Police lie everyday about all people and abuse their power as we all know. Officer Crowley needs his pension the same as this problem for minorities and really everyone else needs to dealt with.



smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 3:42 AM

Andy, you really should read my posts before you think you're disagreeing with me.

Let's try again:

In my experience, most of us cannot help a certain level of inborn racial suspicion; we're hard-wired for it, to fear the Other, to ally with those most like us. Also, I think research bears out that instincts play a larger part in our behavior under stress. These are survival instincts built into us and theoretically outgrown long ago, the "vestigial" genetic racism that we use our higher, civilized reasoning and intelligence to overcome.

Some of us overcome it better than others. Some don't even try. Some feed it and fan it and pass it on to their kids. Racism is alive and well and procreating, and it's ridiculous and dangerous to pretend otherwise. And it's on all sides - racism comes in every color people do. If I hate Beverly because her skin is darker than mine, that's racism. If she expects me to hate her because I am white, that's racism. I see both of those attitudes every day.

Got it?

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 3:45 AM

Beverly, I'd like to see Gates and Crowley both on a national committee to work together on race relations.

Heck, I'd like to be on it myself.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 3:47 AM

Andy,
Once again you are wrong. You don't know what racial profiling is. You were living here in the state When President Obama as a Senator sponsored the bill. Do you make up definitions to suit you gigantic ego?

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 4:01 AM

I hear you loud and clear, Donna . . .

and no amount of damage control is going to rescue Obama from this huge gaffe.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 4:03 AM

Racism and racial profiling can go ways opposite to what you might normally think, Beverly.

I prefer not to see such in any direction, but it is evident here - from Gates and from Obama.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 4:05 AM

Linda, no further need to question Obama's extensive use of teleprompters.

Now you know!

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 4:13 AM

Smoke
That would awesome I have a feeling it may come to fruition in one way or another. The brew would really break the ice..

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 5:36 AM

This was dealt with in a political Yahoo group i am a member off. I asked if we'd hear so much about this if it were a white president defending a white man, it went very quiet.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 5:46 AM

A white President racially profiling a black policeman, Dave?

You'd hear about it bigtime.

From me, for openers.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 6:01 AM

Andy,
Is it because only you can make the right darn decision?

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 6:13 AM

Beverly, it's because I oppose racism in all forms.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 6:32 AM

Andy,
Admit it you oppose all people as evidenced by your objections to everyone else's opinion.

larefamiliaris
Larefamiliaris  (Level: 135.2 - Posts: 877)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 7:27 AM

You guys had a race?
Who won?

oldcougar
Oldcougar  (Level: 219.7 - Posts: 1935)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 8:46 AM

Really, if Gates had been a middle-aged white man dressed in a sports coat & slacks, Crowley would never have treated him in such a unprofessional manner. Unless the B & E artists in the States are a lot more upscale than those in Canada, Gates hardly fit the profile, even though he's black. The police officer just didn't follow proper procedure, period & Professor Gates was well within his rights to refuse to go outside & to ask for Crowley's name & badge number. Whether Crowley did that because he's prejudice, on a power trip or just plain stupid, remains to be seen.


In Canada we pick on the Native Americans, having a disproportionate number of them incarcerated.


I'm just sitting here shaking my head, sadly. We've come a long way, baby, but baby, we've still got a long, long way to go.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 8:59 AM

That last sentence is very true. The thinly disguised racism i have observed since Obama's win is as pitiful as it is disgusting. I'm not talking about this thread paricularly, or even this site in general, but it is out there.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 9:31 AM

LOL just another example of "blantant racism" when folks started calling Bush names and disagreeing with what he was doing

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 9:55 AM

"I think the professor reacted as his cultural experience and beliefs and have conditioned him to, coupled with jet lag and the confusion of the moment; and I suspect the cop reacted as a cop who wants his authority unquestioningly and immediately deferred to. Like they do."


I will agree with all of that. The authority in that sentence is the cop, we as citizens are required to follow their direction and I am know they get a bit irritated when we don't. That could have led to him being warned 3 times before he was even arrested. I would have been arrested if I disobeyed the policemans orders, and so should he. That is all I am saying.



oldcougar
Oldcougar  (Level: 219.7 - Posts: 1935)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 10:07 AM

Sorry, but you are not required to go outside or even produce ID for a policeman unless you are being arrested. Check out the legal opinion link, Donna/Smoke posted above. I knew this was true in Canada but according to that link, it is also true in the States.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 10:11 AM

It is not required? While they are investigating a breakin you don't have to prove who you are? and that you live there? Well that would make me appear to be the perp I would think.



salzypat
Salzypat  (Level: 156.3 - Posts: 5315)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 10:16 AM

Racism? I saw part of an interview this morning with a black man who I gathered was in law enforcement. He said he would have arrested the professor after he did not comply following the first requiest to step outside and calm down. He felt the officer was too patient in his requests.

How could the officer know whether or not there was a gunman just inside the door ready to step out and shoot him and the professor? Could it have been a domestic violence disput interrupted? Was it a hostage situation?

You better believe if a police officer comes to my house and asks me to step out, I will do so -- because I have nothing to hide.

You talk about prejudice as though the only kind there is in this world is color vs. color. Want to talk about prejudice against the elderly, the unattractive, the handicapped, the poor, the obese? There is plenty of prejudice to go around.

This man is a professor and may be very intelligent - but in my opinion he doesn't have a lot of common sense.

You know what the downside of this will be? I think someone referred to it earlier in this thread. If you see something happening in your neighborhood, are you going to be so quick to call the police and report suspicious activity? I bet the professor's neighbor wishes she had never made that phone call.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 10:17 AM

It is not required. A cop cannot knock on your front door, tell you he's investigating a burglary, and order you to step outside.

That's what makes me side with the professor. I place more weight in the sanctity of my home than in the authority of a cop.



caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 10:20 AM

Whatever the arrest was about Obama had no right to weigh in as he like most of us did not have the facts. Because he did he crated a huge firestorm. My comment about objectors to Bush being racist was to Cloggs and others who cannot defend Obama policies so focus on this. White folks had to vote for Obama or he would not be where he is today so get off the racist thing please. If you want to argue legality do that

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 10:21 AM

The neighbor's report was not domestic violence or hostage-taking. She reported two black men trying to get into the front door; that was what the cop was looking for. The professor told the cop that he and his driver had just arrived (might there even have been luggage from a trip to China?) and showed ID proving his identity as the resident.

"Sorry to bother you, sir, have a good evening" should've been the end of it.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 10:24 AM

No - it shouldn't be the end. The officer was required to look around and make sure no one else was there committing a crime. After that, good night sir was appropriate. And the professor should have been grateful. If there is any type of question about someone messing with my house, I want an officer to go in and just be sure. Especially if I'm frail. It doesn't hurt to just check and I think the officer would be remiss not to do so.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 10:30 AM

It is not "officially" a racist arrest -don't believe the Reverends Sharpton and Jackson have weighed in yet-perhaps they have and I misssed it

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 10:55 AM

Yes, Jank, it should've been the end. The lady who doesn't recognize her famous neighbor and sees only "two black men" sent the cop to look for burglars. On arrival the cop found the legal resident, who explained what the lady saw and showed ID.

Good night, officer.

As I've said from the beginning, not one of us knows what really went on, and we're each putting our own personal interpretation on the few facts we know. Some of us defer to police more than others. Some side with the cop because we hate the president and this is the best thing that's happened all month. Some are delighted with the distraction and hope it contributes to the president's failure and downfall, and nothing else matters.

The cop acted stupidly, and if the president hadn't been the one to say so, that would be apparent to more people.




madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.5 - Posts: 893)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 11:31 AM

The policeman followed protocol ... and he was backed by fellow officers black and white who said they would have done the same. If this is stupid, then it needs to be kicked upstairs to those who define protocol.

Seems there is a lot of mind-reading going on ... why not look at what happened at the scene, period. There is documentation of what happened, by two officers, as well as another eyewitness.






collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 12:01 PM

For those who have just joined us . . .

1 There is no indication whatsoever that Sgt Crowley acted unprofessionally. Quite the contrary.

2 It is not Prof Gates' house. He rents it.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 12:03 PM

Some of us side with the cop because we know dead cops' hurting families whose spouse took a situation at face value giving somebody a break, rather than following protocol.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 12:12 PM

Could we just confine it to the situation without bringing in dead cops and crying spouses?

I bow to those of you who KNOW what happened, and what was in each man's mind and heart. You're better-informed than I am.






clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 12:17 PM

Collioure
For those who have just joined us . . .
1 There is no indication whatsoever that Sgt Crowley acted unprofessionally. Quite the contrary.
2 It is not Prof Gates' house. He rents it.

Coolio has laid down the word bros. Now we is all knowin' where we is at.

lodi
Lodi  (Level: 98.7 - Posts: 2144)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 12:30 PM

I rarely post in these kinds of threads anymore, but its been bothering me that this professor has been called "elite" and someone said something about the fact that once he identified himself and that he was a professor, the police should have left. I work at a university, and just because someone has had the benefit of more education than the rest of us, it in no way makes them any less capable of committing a crime. If you stood a professor next to a poor uneducated homeless guy and asked which one committed a crime, most people would choose the individual of lower economic stature. That is a form of profiling all on its own.

People with higher degrees are just as capable of, and do commit, crimes. Recently, we had the Georgia professor who killed his wife, along with two other people. There are accounts of professors, doctors, attorneys, politicians, engineers, etc., who have committed murder or various other crimes. Heck, in our own university, we had a British professor who spent his day dealing in child porn and soliciting young girls online. He eventually was busted but took matters into his own hands by stealing cyanide from one of our labs and ingesting it at home.

I think its important than police follow protocol regardless of education, background, race, gender, etc., because you just never know who is going to turn out to be the creep. What if, upon hearing that they are XXXX and they employed as an XXXX, and they say "OK, thank you very much for your time" and walk away, and XXXX goes back in and finishes killing his wife. Can you imagine?

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 12:36 PM

There's audio tape, Dave.

The Cambridge city officials are debating its release.

BTW perhaps you folks don't understand Cambridge, Mass. I've lived there. It's Harvard, not an average suburb of Boston by any means - filled with professors living in houses and students in apartments - and it isn't exactly conservative.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 12:40 PM

Well, there's certainly some truth to that Lodi, but a Harvard professor committing a felony? I don't think so.

BTW we still don't know just what was on the ID Prof Gates eventually produced.

fudypatootie
Fudypatootie  (Level: 197.2 - Posts: 1302)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 12:45 PM

Lodi has laid down the word. Amen

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 1:05 PM

And we all know that GOD put the white men on this fair land of ours, it was only us white folk that put the negroes here. Don't you go listening to any of that evolution stuff about them red skins, that is all liberal Hollywood hogwash. If them red folk were here first, how come all the presidents them been white ? All we gotta do is pray and the LORD almighty will take that muslim Osama away........AMEN.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 1:26 PM

Oh my, Cloggs said "Negroes" so politically incorrect. I am all for confining the talk to this particular arrest and nort bringing in dead cops and all but then no fair bringing in "lenghty' perceived history of white police treating law abiding Black people like dogs if they don't "step and fetch it" You can't have it both ways

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 1:54 PM

*I would like to know more about the neighbor.

*How is she didn't recognize here own neighbor? Why was her description of the 2 men being 2 BIG black men with backpacks? Clearly as everyone has seen from the handcuffed pictureProfessor Gates is not a big man.

* Why doesn't anyone have her step forward and give her version.

*Professor Gates was absolutely correct to not step outside. He could have been accosted just like Rodney King. I'm not saying that was Officer Crowley's intent. But S**********happens.

*Just because the officer who are in allegiance with Officer Crowley are Black does not mean they are any less corrupt. Policemen have a silent code of honor or brotherhood. For example, Uncle Clarence Thomas sits on the Supreme Court yet he never sides with issues of minorities; in fact, he usually is literally silent. Besides most of us will some agree police are abusive pigs and there are some good police.

*Professor Gates rents the house. So what! That doesn't diminish his rights any more than a home owner or citizen.

* Congratulation to Professor Gates standing up for his rights. I would have done the same. We have come a long way as a nation. So I see no reason to turn back the hands of time .



collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 1:55 PM

Let us put the idea that this is somehow a case of racial profiling by the police aside for once and for all.

The police responded to a report; they did not select Gates off the street because of his race as is the case in racial profiling. They dealt with the person or persons they found on site, regardless of race.

On the other hand, we can posit that Gates, a professor of African American studies, responded differently to the presence of a white police officer than he would have to a black police officer acting identically.

I contend that Gates racially profiled Sgt Crowley and that President Obama did the very same thing.

oldcougar
Oldcougar  (Level: 219.7 - Posts: 1935)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 1:56 PM

It doesn't matter what any of us posting here would do in the same situation, it only matters whether or not Gates broke the law. I guess the state doesn't think he did because they dropped the charges & they have access to the tape.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 2:13 PM

Andy,
There you go again positing. You still don't get it. You don't know what racial profiling is! I will give you credit for being 1/2 right. Had Sgt Crowley selected Professor Gates off the street that would be racially profiling. All you need is a little more love in your heart. I can't give you a half heart; but I will give you

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 2:16 PM

Caramel1
Oh my, Cloggs said "Negroes" so politically incorrect.

It's called irony. I forgot my audience, i should have posted a warning.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 2:25 PM

I don't think the professor's educational level has any bearing at all. My view of the situation isn't even that much about race, except for the personal perceptions of those two men, which we cannot know. Maybe all we have here is a failure to communicate.

But I certainly do see how black communities, already sick of hearing that race is a non-issue in the post-racial age of Obama, when they see the opposite in their lives every day, I can see how they might be saying "even a Harvard professor" ... "even a friend of the president" ... "even in his own home." To black folks, this is not an isolated incident; they're bringing generations of experience and preconceptions to the conversation. That is how they feel, and I think we should respect and validate those feelings by not pretending it's impossible for race to have played a part in the cop's behavior because he taught a profiling class.

I don't disagree that the professor may have over-reacted, whatever the reasons, and I freely admit I'm no expert on police protocol, only going by the article that says the professor in his home was within his rights not to answer questions or step outside.

To me the bottom line is the cop did not need to arrest that man. He wasn't called because someone was being murdered, he was looking for a burglar, which the proven resident clearly was not. The guy got busted for yelling at a cop from his own front porch. Doesn't matter whether he's a professor or a ditch digger, black man, white woman, green transvestite or rainbow warrior, I think that sucks.

If not for those with deep animosity toward the president taking advantage of his questionable judgment and choice of words in commenting, I doubt we'd be talking about this at all. Heaven forbid, we might be discussing health care.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 2:30 PM

You'lll have to forgive me I now live in the land of monshine drinking, lynch mob, pick-up triucks,sheets with eye holes, Conferadetate Flags and ropes formed into nooses. If you gedt past Y'all you have to forgive us rednecks as everyone knows the men always wear sleevelessT-Shirts and keep their women barefoot and pregnant and in there place like the "darkies" LOL

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 2:38 PM

Acceptance is the first step, and as i'm sure you are told all the time, confession is good for the soul. Y'all have a nice day now. y'all hear?

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 2:55 PM

There you go again, Donna.

This matter took on national prominence at the end of a press conference about what?

Health care !!!!

Only the President didn't discuss health care; instead he filibustered.

And at the end there was an apparently planted question about Gates.



caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 2:56 PM

BTW, Beverely, I would not recognize my neighbors if I saw them in the local Walmart. I live on a corner. Directly across the street is a Catholic Church., Across the corner is a home owned by the Catholic Church for mentally handicapped, directly across the side street is a huge condo complex, Direcetly in back is a duplex so they come and go and break-neck speed. The only ones who have been here longer than I have which is about 10 years pretty much stay inside and don't answer the door. I have the distinct suspicion they don't pay their bills as the cable company has cut me off twice as we share the same outside box. Also on ocasion someone knocks on my door asking if I know when they might be at home. It they are famous and trravel or are simply hiding-got me

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 2:59 PM

Beverly, I understand what racial profiling is. That's how I am able to cite the racial profilers in this affair - Gates and Obama.

You'd like to stick with unbalanced definition under law which might apply only to whites profiling minorities, but the term has wider meaning.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 3:02 PM

BTW, Beverly, I'd like to thank you for not blaming the Republicans this time.

Could be a first.

(BTW my heart is just fine - bought a dozen roses for Odile today - 2nd time in 3 weeks).

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 3:03 PM

And there you go again, Andy. Are you suggesting (based on what, I wonder) that the president deliberately sabotaged his own press conference and the trip he's on to promote his health care program? Do tell the whole plot, it will reveal so much.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 3:07 PM

It doesn't apply to WHITES profiling minorities, Andy, it applies to COPS profiling minorities.

They can't stop, harrass or arrest people because they look a certain way. But there are many ways around the law, as I'm sure any profiling expert would know.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 3:27 PM

Odd, for a whole lot of folks reserving judgement until the facts ae in, there have been a whole lot of lengthy opinions here-include myself in this group. Maybe if I knew how to use my computer to put words in dark type they would carry more weight a sway those who already have an opinion-dunno

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 3:35 PM

Just dark print ? I can't see it myself.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 3:43 PM

You mean like this?

salzypat
Salzypat  (Level: 156.3 - Posts: 5315)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 4:07 PM

Smoke: "Some side with the cop because we hate the president "

The president wouldn't be in this conversation if HE had not put himself there - inappropriately. My feelings about this case have nothing to do with the president, except I wish he would have thought twice before speaking.

It is correct that we bring our own perceptions to this conversation. In my part of the country, we - those of us who have nothing to hide - tend to see law-enforcement officers as authority figures, we trust them, respect them and appreciate them putting their lives on the line every day. We see them at fund-raisers, parades, in the grocery store and in church and serve with them on committees. Perhaps that gives us a different perspective of law enforcement. Doesn't mean we don't have a few bad apples, because we do. But overall, they are neighbors AND public servants.

I know, Nebraskans are weird.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 4:09 PM

OK, white cops, Donna.

But racial profiling = racial stereotyping

and that's what Gates and Obama did.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 4:11 PM

Donna, I have simply read that the question was planted by David Axelrod.

If it was, the reasons might be all too obvious.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 4:12 PM

LOL yup that's it. Tempted to imitate THEDON so people would see how intelligent I am-at least not be thinking of their response before they started or finished reading what someone else said. Two tapes are yet to be released-911 call and the recording during the arrest. Forget who has them as who makes the decision when and if they will be released. Currently the police dept.is pressing for them to be released and that says volumes to me. Of course you know the cops alter those LOL

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 4:20 PM

No, Andy, not white cops, ALL cops.

Think 9/11. I know you can manage that.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 4:25 PM

Really doesn't matter, Donna.

Cops didn't racially profile here.

Gates and Obama did.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 4:31 PM

Sorry, Andy, but your opinion is like one of those things everyone has one of - we don't really know whether either of your pronouncements are true, that's just how it looks to you.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 4:36 PM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/#32111512

Health care !!!!

Only the President didn't discuss health care; instead he filibustered.

And at the end there was an apparently planted question about Gates.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wrong again, Andy

Lynn Sweet, A Chicago Sun Times Reporter, was not apparently planted. She said on the Chris Matthews Show that she received a lot of flack for deviating from healthcare.

I'll bet the source you read about Axelrod was a neo-conservative source. Can you provide the link

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 4:48 PM

Bev, I read that in a number of places today. Like a good reporter I follow leads.

FYI reporters do not admit to planted questions.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 4:49 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Louis_Gates,_Jr. thought the professor's views on saying because he was not Anglo Saxon he was less qualified to teach Shakespeare-the white cop being less qualified to teach race relations comment back somerwhere in this thread

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 4:57 PM

Beverly, think consensus is growing on all sides that unless Obama has something new to say it would be wise for him to cut the "face-time". Perhaps that is why he is taking a week's vacation. He pushed his press conference back to accommodate some network show believe starring David Haaslehorf for pity sake. It wasn't a press conference as he took even fewer questions and answered nothing except the one he should not have. Fewer people tuned in to this one too-even a Rock Star can suffer from overexposure.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 5:00 PM

Surely none of you are Anglo Saxon now. Wasn't that the point of the skirmish that has had such a happy conclusion?

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 6:59 PM

Dr Louis Gates not being Anglo Saxon; therefore, not qualified to teach Shakespeare is as ludicrous as saying Rush Limbaugh is highly intellectual.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 8:13 PM

And equally ludricrous to say the cop was less qualified to teach a class in "racial sensitivity" than an African-American cop or otherwise

madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.5 - Posts: 893)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 9:16 PM

This dialog is a social activist's dream come true ... and I don't mean that as a compliment. It smacks of the 60's bullying, not to get at the truth, but to cow people who don't want to be seen as a ... racist, or misogynist, or whatever ... It's a win-win, they either silence people, or they get to play victim, and get their 15 minutes of fame while they charm the pants off the media and make the authorities look like fools. If the authorities had the cojones they should have let this play out and get sworn testimony, and then decide whether to drop charges. But I'm sure they don't want to be leaned on by POTUS, he might mis-calibrate something else.



collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 9:32 PM

Well, Colleen, it's moving toward a win-win.

The charges have already been dropped.

I do regret that the win-win will center around racial profiling because the only racial profiling in this affair was that done by Gates and Obama.

It seems that the police nationwide are getting what they want - not just exoneration, but respect.

Obama has a black eye and is way off message as he tries to recuperate from a foolish statement.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 9:56 PM

I hope with all my heart that the recording is released. People all over the world have been discussing this, and since the media shoved it in front of all of us, I think we deserve to know the truth.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 10:04 PM

And the funniest point is - what we have done here, give opinions without facts, is exactly what the president did. He gave an opinion without facts.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 11:39 PM

I doubt very seriously if anyone is being cowardly or looking for fame. The very fact that each person has participated; means they want answers; and a chance to express their opinions. As to what they believe is relevant. People have expressed their heartfelt opinions; that is healthy in this pressing issue in America as long as it doesn’t denigrate. I have 2 people I love to needle but that is between the 3 of us. . This issue is serious in this country and shows just how far we have come. There was a time Martin Luther King was told to keep his mouth shut. He didn’t. Now women, waiters, garbage collectors, astronauts, an African American president female CEO, female bankers , blacks, browns, whites, yellows and red people are all reaping the benefits of Dr. King’s not being quiet. I consider this to be an opportunity to dialogue about America's birth defect we still have a lot of work to do. And that's what we are doing on this thread.

The President has tremendous respect for police. The President worked with the police here in my state about racial profiling. It was a very classy act he did by engaging himself, Gates and Crowlely for a chance to talk and share a beer in the White House.
It is unfortunate that no can understand that the President can not get much done without his opposition, mainly Republicans, politicizing the health care agenda just so the President can fail.

During the conference the President did say he is not blaming the Republican for what has happened thus far; however the President is dissatisfied with the Republican misinformation. Despite what the republicans are doing we still have many people our more dissatisfied with a fading Republican Party using those lies and misinformation just to hold to their greed and power.

To be more precise the Gates/Crowley miscalculation really was blown out of proportion by the media; another Republican tactic to stall the Obama agenda.

It’s really time to reduce the hyperbole from the Frank Luntz and Ramusmens dishonest polls touting government control, take over, socialism etc. Families facing bankruptcy and hardships will turn on those creating this chaos that the Republicans controlled in Congress previously and did nothing. Never cut off the hand that feed you.

These trouble makers are in for a big surprise.


bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sat, 25th Jul '09 11:43 PM

I would think if you drop charges; maybe they are bogus. Maybe we won't hear the recording.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 3:43 AM

Why do you post such totally partisan BS, Beverly?



goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 9:09 AM

"And the funniest point is - what we have done here, give opinions without facts, is exactly what the president did. He gave an opinion without facts."


That would mean he's human???? The hell you say.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 9:50 AM

Robert Gibbs on Fox News Sunday said that Obama was briefed for a question like this. What is ovbious is that he thought he could make any comment he chose to make about race and did not consider backlash nor research the record of the arresting officer. Professor Gates has accepted the invitation to te White House for a beer saying he will gladly meet with Officer Crowley if it cuts down on "racial profiling"-the assumption being that is what happened. Usually tapes are not released unless someone sues and it sure looks like the professor does not intend to do that whatever his reasons.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 10:03 AM

Briefed for a planted question, Linda.

Makes it much worse than it appeared at first.

It wasn't about race until he made it about race.

madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.5 - Posts: 893)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 10:13 AM

Well, he needs to make a living

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 10:14 AM

Gibbs did not say the question was planted. If you read back over this threafd I note d that it would have been the natural expectation for a question like this to be asked-the coverage it had received in the news. Actually, although believe Lynn Sweet leans left of where I am , think she tries to be impartial. You are absolutely correct. Obama is the one who brought race into the court of public opinion.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 10:14 AM

Andy, that may not be THE stupidest thing you've ever said here, but it's high on the list.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 10:32 AM

Whatever, there is no dialogue about Race but people choosing sides and insulting others who do not share their view, If that was the goal of Obama's remark, "HE WON" We are getting every bit as polarized as we were 20 years ago...

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 10:40 AM

That makes 3 uses of "stupid" in this thread (including the president's).

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 10:48 AM

Counting words and pointing fingers is a stupid way to have a conversation.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 11:03 AM

I just think we all know why the rules are only for us.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 11:07 AM

Is this about the thread or getting personal again?

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 11:10 AM

"Andy, that may not be THE stupidest thing you've ever said here, but it's high on the list."

I don't think it gets more personal than that.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 11:11 AM

I think he can defend himself.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 11:11 AM

Who's "us" and what rules?

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 11:16 AM



smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 11:33 AM

Straight answer, please, Jank. I never know what your emoticons really mean.

I don't think it comes as a big shock to Andy that I think some of the things he says are stupid. He thinks the same of some of the thing I say.

Just so YOU understand it, Janice, I'm not saying ANDY is stupid, I'm saying I THINK what he SAID was stupid.

Andy: not stupid.
What Andy said: stupid.

I know it's a subtle distinction that can be difficult for some people to make, but it's there.

Are you keeping count?

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 11:40 AM

Donna, I don't think you post stupid stuff.

And I will continue to assert that if Obama was briefed on this issue of all things for a press conference about health care that the question was likely planted.

The fact that he was briefed makes his answer that much worse, that much more UNPresidential.

I'll leave it at that because commentators believing the question planted will have even more to say in the coming days and weeks.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 12:05 PM

Andy, because you are charming enough to deny that you think some of my remarks are stupid (because I think some of my remarks are stupid), and because my comment was directed solely at you as banter and not in malice which I trust you know (and is really no one else's business), I'll share with you that I used the word on purpose because it has been a part of the conversation all along, from the moment its participle emerged from the president's mouth. I was mocking the use of the word, if you will, (do a Find on the thread and see how many times it appears before I said it to you) and if you seriously think I was calling you stupid, I assure you I was not and I'm sorry if YOU got that impression.

Except for the repetition of the word, I'd have said that the idea of that question being planted and deliberately fumbled is one of the most ridiculous, ludicrous, absurd and silly things I've ever heard.

Saying you think someone has said or done something stupid falls somewhat short of a vicious character assassination in a reasonable world. Unless you're me. Or the president. I'm trying to decide if I should be flattered that the same people who detest Obama can't stand me, either. Coinkydink? You decide. (that means I'm laughing)

Oh, well, at least I'm in excellent company.



caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 12:09 PM

It just illustrates the level of Obama's conceit. He clearly figured he could take sides on this racial issue without the facts and that the press loved him so much they would soft peddle it. He and his views have now become the story and everyone has an opinion and a side-some are mor subtle in disagreeing than others but people are angry-include myself in this group. I believe "Afirmative Action" should be a thing of the past. I know cops can be jerks as was married to one most of my life-not saying he was-but they don't just target "black folks" when they are jerks. Statistics show that the majority of crimes are committed by Black people on other Black people. I have said this before but worth repeating. Cops have a tendency to get jaded as they see for the most part two kinds of people-victims and bad guys. BTW it now has become an "official" racial arrest as the Reverend Sharpton just weighed in on Fox.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 12:13 PM

Donna, I don't think you post stupid stuff. Period.

I agree with you more times than not, though it may not appear that way because when we disagree, there are many more posts from each of us.

BTW I'm glad you weren't really calling me stupid, but you can because I am going to continue to assert that said question was planted. Not much chance it was coincidence IMO.


smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 12:31 PM

That wasn't the coincidence I meant, Andy, but never mind that now.

No, of course I'm not calling you stupid, I would never do that, even if I thought it, which I do not. I am able to separate my reaction to your statement from my feelings for you as a person.

My husband says stupid stuff all the time, but I love him dearly and respect him more than anyone I know.

Thank you for not over-reacting to my gibe and characterizing my apology as twisting the knife I shoved in your back.

mrbojangles
Mrbojangles  (Level: 16.6 - Posts: 231)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 12:38 PM

The story behind my Obama question
The Chicago Sun-Times ^ | July 24, 2009 | Lynn Sweet

Posted on Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:16:17 AM by lex33

July 24, 2009

BY LYNN SWEET Sun-Times Columnist WASHINGTON -- I asked President Obama what turned out to be a provocative question at his press conference on Wednesday night -- well, it was his answer that was really provocative -- about the arrest of noted Harvard African-American studies Professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. at his home in Cambridge, Mass.

I asked,"What does that incident say to you? And what does it say about race relations in America?"

Obama's answer included a sound bite picked up by scores of outlets, whether print, TV, radio or on the Web. Said Obama, "the Cambridge police acted stupidly in arresting somebody when there was already proof that they were in their own home."

Obama's answer also triggered a storm of questions to me -- by other reporters, readers e-mailing me and commenting on my blog about how and why I came to ask about Gates.

No conspiracy, folks.

When President Obama called on me, he had no idea what I would be asking. I had not written or blogged about the Gates incident, so no one in the White House had any clue that I was particularly interested in Obama's reaction.

I got a call from the White House press office about 6:30 p.m. confirming I was indeed going to show up at the 8 p.m. press conference. I was told I "may" get a question from the president. No one asked me -- directly or indirectly -- about what I may be asking. No one from the White House tried to plant any question.

By calling a prime time news conference, Obama got a chance to read a statement at the beginning pushing Congress to pass his health-care reform proposals.

But the White House did not set this up as a health-care-only press conference. There was no mandate on reporters who attended to ask questions about health care.

Ten journalists asked questions, including me; seven had health-care questions, three asked about other topics. The Sun-Times and Tribune Co. reporters both got questions -- the pairing of the rivals was by White House design.

Obama gave me the last question. I had no control over the timing. There was no chance for a follow-up. If I was called on earlier in the press conference, I may have asked about health care. I thought it was appropriate at the end to bring up another matter in the news--the Gates arrest. I would have posed the same question to President Bush.

Some saw a plot because I read my question. I do write them down for a White House press conference. No plot. I want to be concise.



goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 12:41 PM

Guess that clears that up. Thanks.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 12:44 PM

Thanks, Bo.

So it was not planted, but Obama had been briefed.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 12:45 PM

Presidents are always briefed, Andy. Not a plot.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 12:46 PM

Robert Gibbs on Fox News Sunday did not say the question was planted but that Obama had been briefed in anticipation of such a question. It is obvious that he was not "briefed" well enough that by taking sides without the facts it would raise such a controversy

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 2:08 PM

Andy,
Thanks, I did just as you told me? I followed up as you suggested a good reporter would do ed it. Guess What I found out? Well--it turns out that the Repuglicans asked Lynn Sweet to ask that question. Can you believe that?

Now really this does seems quite partisan; no bull s****! I told you the Repuglicans would use any stall tactic to derail healthcare and the Presidents agenda. They want the President to fail as well as this country too. Anything from the kitchen sink strategy, maybe even the toilet as well, just to regain their position of power greed; is simply just more of the same.

I whine; you decide.







caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 2:29 PM

And your source for that claim was what, Beverly???

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 2:32 PM

I think all sploofus members are very astute and firmly believe they opinions are relevant; until they are debunked. Some retort with very humorous statements which keeps me on my toes. That is great when we feed off each other because it broadens our intellects. What I do think is--the dwindling Republican leadership strategy is stupid and antithetical to the this nation!.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 2:37 PM

Linda,
You of all people, the master reporter, didn't know? I don't remember; but I'll get it back to you later. You betcha.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 2:42 PM

Well, Beverly, Bo was nice to post Sweet's own column above. She did not mention that.

In any case the President booted the question bigtime.



jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 2:47 PM

Beverly, that's an absolutely huge accusation to place here without any source of proof whatsoever. Are you just hoping it's a bell that can't be unrung, even when there's not one iota of truth of proof to it?

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 2:50 PM

No, not at all, Jan

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 2:58 PM

You show me proof and I'll be right behind you on that bandwagon.

madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.5 - Posts: 893)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 3:02 PM

Flashback ... I had to call 911 once for a medical emergency, and one of the fireman went through my whole house, certainly not intending to invade my privacy, rather for my own safety. I was grateful ... and would have been if he had been green or plaid. They don't ask, they just do it. If he had found something wrong, you can be sure he'd call the police to check it out ... no problem, I got nothing to hide.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 3:02 PM

Haven't heard anyoned even hint at that possibility. Obama clearly thought he could say anything he wanted about Race . From the reaction-he thought wrong.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 3:43 PM

In any case the President booted the question bigtime.

I don't know what you mean by the word BOOTED. Careful, that has aroused my intellectual curiosity; and you probably know what could happen. That could open up my liberal land mind (pun intended).

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 3:45 PM

Well, Beverly, he was very soon thereafter in damage control maneuvers.

He had a rather bad week.

I wonder how many more it will take before his White House charts a new and winning course.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 4:02 PM

Isn't hat want change is all about? As an Indie , I trust that will not stay exactly as you are.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 4:18 PM

AGAIN, Beverly, please give your source for the Republicans being responsible for the question that Obama bumbled so badly. If you have no reliable source just say that and everyone can disregard it as just another unfounded rant

salzypat
Salzypat  (Level: 156.3 - Posts: 5315)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 4:47 PM

"They (Republicans) want the President to fail as well as this country too."



Really? Do they have some secret strategy that will allow this country to faill and take only the Democrats down with it and leave the Republicans untouched?

I think your statement has more holes than can be counted.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 5:05 PM

Please keep in mind. The dems control everything. The president and dems don't have a leg to stand on to blame republicans for anything right now. If healthcare doesn't pass as it stands today, there is no one to blame but the dems in congress. Remember - dems have a veto-proof congress now.

But the truth is, if healthcare doesn't pass as it stands now, it is because the people, the constituents, the voters are finding out slowly but surely what is in that 1,000 pages plus mess of a bill and they are contacting their congressmen in staggering numbers, demanding they vote no on this bill (again, as it is right now).

We are tired of our representatives voting for bills so rapped up in excessive, unclear verbage that they don't even read them.



bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 117.7 - Posts: 1745)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 5:21 PM

I am not trying to add fuel to the fire. I agree with Smoke we are all born into a certain amount of racism. Whether cultural, or inherited. This is a personal observation and it comes from a professional point. I have a job that requires me to work with the public in a hospitality venue. The property at present is in the SE in a small city. I would say the racial mix is 50-50. The property is pandering this summer to black family reunions.

I happen to be working the overnite shift in accounting, it is extremely uncomfortable for me. I am the only caucasian on property late at night. There is no security guard and the property is full. At 4 and 5 in the morning young African American males are milling about the property and in parking lot on cell phones. They obviously are not staying there, nor should they be up and about at this hour. To my mind this is suspicious and looks like criminal drug trafficing.

The front dest manager is black, how to I go about telling her my concerns? If I am again in this situation and she is not there I am going to ask these young black males to leave the property if they are not guests or I will call the police. Trust me I will be on a first name basis with officers if this occurs frequently.

What amazes me is that they allow this activity at a property only 6 month old in a decent area adjacent to a shopping mall.
I know there is a recession going on but this is not the kind of business they should want to attract. As a side note the police have been called there twice in the last week. That is just when I have been on duty. If I am racial profiling so be it, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck.

m48ortal
M48ortal  (Level: 251.3 - Posts: 3742)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 5:33 PM

Regarding this whole issue.

I wasn't there. I didn't see it. Therefore everything I've heard about it is hearsay. I have no further comment.

Repeat after me, "I wasn't there... "

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 5:39 PM

NEITHER was Obama and therefore had no right to malign Officer Crawley nor the Cambridge Police -believe that is the point

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 117.7 - Posts: 1745)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 6:01 PM

I believe that there is nothing owed to people simply because of their race. We don't need special rules or special handling of people based on socio-economics or race. If someone breaks the law they should be treated as such. Not given special treatment because of their race. Quite frankly I believe people are going over board to make sure that people are treated equally. You are not entitled to special treatment because you are old, or black or disabled or a scholar. I wasn't there and don't know who was right or wrong, but it sounds like the professor was. I personally have grown tired of pandering to people based simply on the fact that they were born a different color.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 7:31 PM

Bobo

I understand your frustration. But the truth is; minorities still feel the effect of the mindset of racism. If you really dislike those persons, or any one for that matter, I see no reason for you to bend over backwards; even if America were a colored blind society.
When I have a natural antipathy for someone I am either courteous to them or I avoid them as much as possible; no matter how they are.


bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 7:36 PM

Bobo
I forget to include this link that was in my e-mail box. Perhaps, I hope, it'll help you understand my point.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 8:05 PM

I'm with Bob.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5189421n&tag=contentMain;contentBody

Always thought it had more to do with testosterone than melanin.



bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 8:24 PM

saltzpat

I think with your background, I'm surprised you are not paying much attention to the media. Retirement is fun and so is sploofus.

1.http://www.examiner.com/x-7109-Chicago-Law-and-Politics-Examiner~y2009m7d25-Rush-Limbaugh--Rahm-Emanuel-dead-fish-and-Obamas-failure-means-success--or-some-nonsense


2. This one is really fanatical coming from comedic Glenn Beck. I just copied this to spare reading through all of it.

Here is the link if you want to read the whole piece … http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/10842/

GLENN: Stop. Then why don't you have some of your policies reflect the faith in people? Why babysit people? If you have unlimited -- see, that's where compassionate conservatism -- I can never say that word -- conservatism comes in. I have unlimited faith in people. That's why I say let them fail. Because when they fail, they will pick themselves back up again. People are only renewed when they fail. The Phoenix can only rise after it has been reduced to ashes. I have unlimited faith in people because I myself have failed over and over and over again. And through my failure I built success. Through your failure you will build success. You learn from your mistakes. You get stronger. You become more determined. You know, I heard Barack Obama say one of the reasons why he is really fighting for this is because somehow or another he is trying to prove to his father that he was worth staying for. And I thought to myself, there is another example of failure doing good.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#32073131


3. http://www.thecherrycreeknews.com/content/view/4862/2/
***During a recent appearance on right-wing radio show, Sen. Jim Inhofe (R-OK) bluntly stated that defeating Obama's health care agenda is "going to be a huge gain for those of us who want to turn this thing over in the 2010 election." In a separate radio appearance, Inhofe -- speaking for the right wing -- explained, "We are plotting the demise on a week by week basis of where Bill Clinton was in 1993 and where Obama is today and his demise ratio is greater than Clinton's was in 1993

***BATTLE OF WATERLOO: Speaking on a conference call with "tea party" activists, Sen. Jim DeMint (R-SC) let slip why he hopes that health reform fails: "If we're able to stop Obama on this it will be his Waterloo. It will break him." Sen. George Voinovich (R-OH) half- admitted the truth about conservative opposition to health reform, telling CNBC that the balance between opponents' desire to express disagreement with the President and their desire to exploit a failed bill for political gain is "probably 50-50." Yet even as conservatives plot to leave tens of millions of Americans without health care in order to score political points on Obama, they refuse to release a single new idea to address the health care crisis

***BACK TO THE FUTURE: DeMint is not the only conservative recycling old playbooks in the hopes of breaking Obama. Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-GA), who knows something about exploiting a failed health care bill for electoral gain, endorsed DeMint's "Waterloo" statement, proclaiming that "this could be the bill that drags [Obama's] whole presidency down."


I hope this is solid enough. Ohhh , don’t forget the Birther’s movement who want the President impeached because of the birth certificate flap. They still think is an undercover brother from Kenya. Imagine that!



collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 8:25 PM

Sorry, no deal - and I certainly have not heard a real apology from the President. In fact in the last (damage control) quote from Obama he's still favoring Gates over Sgt Crowley.

This gaffe far exceeded the Daschle nomination for which he admitted a major screw-up. He played the race card very unwisely and inappropriately and has yet to acknowledge that.


bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 8:32 PM

It's not a game or gaffe. Racism is Real and you seem to beating its drum now. There is no need to concede anything.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 8:44 PM

Many people are tired, Bobo, proud of you for speaking up here. Obama was the one who was supposed to transcend race but what he did on that question was disapproved of by over 74% of the American people in toal over 25% of African Americans He is too arrogantt to simply say I made a mistake in judging without the facts which is what prejudice is by defininition. Why did the Reverend Sharpton weigh in if it wasn't that he would not have a purpose if he couldn't inject racial bias on everything?

tuzilla
Tuzilla  (Level: 133.9 - Posts: 3777)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 8:51 PM

You should not call a person in France a racist. They have laws to prevent gathering information/data/demographics that could/would prove they are one of the most racist nations in the world following Germany and Korea. You cannot prove it.How do you think they keep that big group of immigrants suppressed without legal challenges?

madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.5 - Posts: 893)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 9:17 PM

"Yet even as conservatives plot to leave tens of millions of Americans without health care in order to score political points on Obama, they refuse to release a single new idea to address the health care crisis"

And yet this statement does exactly exactly the same -- scores points against the conservatives. I'd like to carry this into another thread and examine its assertions.



caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 9:30 PM

Being called a "Racist" has become about the worst name anyone can call anyone these days. As a result that call or a variant thereof is often used when it has not a single thing to do with anything. I'm not going to play that game any more. I believe most of what Obama plans for America will hurt our country. Call me anthing you want

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 9:49 PM



Sorry, Bobo
This time I didn't forget the link

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-ridley/gates-says-what-a-lot-of_b_244571.html

I hope you understand

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 10:22 PM

That is such an inflammatory opinion piece.

"We're not going to prove anything to you anymore because we can show you our collective drivers licenses and birth certificates and our 17-year judicial records and any other documents or accomplishments and you'd just come up with another freak reason to deny, deny, deny."

Nowhere in that entire article is the word "truth." It's like a child on the playground, taunting nya nya nya nya nya. But there's nowhere in that article any desire to shine light on the truth.

I fear if the recording isn't released, the rhetoric will ratchet up too, as people hide behind the fact that the truth won't be played for us to hear ourselves, so anyone on either side can say anything they wish and no one can deny it because there's no evidence.

Also, the Republicans have been trying to put their healthcare reform plan up for debate and compromise. It's a lie that they don't have a plan. The media and the administration just IGNORE their plan. When people just start believing anything that shoots out of their mouth with no proof, it's more than scary.

And still, there is not one link to anything, anyone, anywhere, even remotely suggesting Republicans planted the question at the press conference last week - except from the fingertips of one person in this very blog.

And yet, we know the question of the administration planting questions at least has feasibility, since the administration actually did plant the question from Iran dissidents at his press conference:

"...President Obama called on the Huffington Post's Nico Pitney near the start of his press conference and requested a question directly about Iran."

President: “Nico, I know you and all across the Internet, we've been seeing a lot of reports coming out of Iran,” Obama said, addressing Pitney. “I know there may actually be questions from people in Iran who are communicating through the Internet. Do you have a question?”

Pitney: “I wanted to use this opportunity to ask you a question directly from an Iranian.”

Where are the people who care more for the truth than their own agendas?

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 10:27 PM


Madamec8

Actually, that's not true.

In fact, several recent polls indicate that Americans do support paying for health care reform through taxes on the wealthy:

* A USA Today/Gallup poll conducted July 10-12 found that 58 percent of respondents support "[i]ncreasing income taxes on upper-income Americans" as a way to pay for health care reform.

* A Washington Post/ABC News poll conducted June 18-21 found that 60 percent of respondents support paying for health care reform by "raising income taxes on Americans with household incomes over 250-thousand dollars."

* A NBC/Wall Street Journal poll conducted June 12-15 found that 62 percent of respondents say that it would be "acceptable" to "[r]aise taxes for people with incomes over two hundred fifty thousand dollars a year" to fund health care reform.

* A Kaiser Family Foundation poll conducted June 1-8 found that 68 percent of respondents "strongly" or "somewhat favor" "[i]ncreasing income taxes for people from families making more that [sic] $250,000 a year" in order to "help pay for health care reform and provide coverage for more of the uninsured."


jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 10:32 PM

That's just start up costs, too.

Just as everything the federal government touches, the wait becomes longer, the taxes become higher, the fees become higher.

What causes a political party to put this kind of economic stress on a nation that already pushed close to depression? It's not like we're all doing well here. This kind of massive, life-changing government program can hardly make it when the nation is economically healthy.

In fact, the nation is very economically sick! This national healthcare program is like kicking the nation in the head when it is its sickest!

At least wait till we get a strong recovery and people get back to work.

What are you going to do when you run out of other people's money?

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 10:58 PM

Jan

this all The presidents fault/efforts...

Leading economic indicators improving
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-tc-biz-brf-indicators-0720-0jul21,0,2774476.story

The AMA endorses health care reform
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gJIJj8CaGBkC-1KeejISUCmekcxgD99FR64G0


jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 11:14 PM

Beverly, for every link you post, there is an equal and opposite link that says just the opposite, with facts and figures to back it up. It's the battle of the links.

I try to post from liberal media sites as often as possible.

New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/11/us/politics/11health.html just one month ago.

As the health care debate heats up, the American Medical Association is letting Congress know that it will oppose creation of a government-sponsored insurance plan, which President Obama and many other Democrats see as an essential element of legislation to remake the health care system.

http://aison-bass.blogspot.com/2009/06/now-is-time-to-fight-for-public-health.html

More doctors disagreeing with AMA over universal health care

Minneapolis Star Tribune - June 29, 2009 http://newstrust.net/stories/45415

Doctors deeply divided over national health care reform

http://www.gallup.com/poll/121883/Most-U.S.-Want-Healthcare-Reform-Vary-Urgency.aspx

"41% of Americans would advise their representative in Congress to pass a new healthcare reform law by the end of this year; another 30% would say Congress should pass a new law, but not necessarily this year; and the remainder -- 24% -- don't think Congress should pass a new healthcare reform law at all."



clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 11:28 PM

Bigmama60

"In fact, several recent polls indicate that Americans do support paying for health care reform through taxes on the wealthy:"

Squeeze 'em till their pips squeak. Many of them acquire their wealth on the backs of the less well off anyway.

madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.5 - Posts: 893)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 11:44 PM

Wonder if la Streisand is willing to part with her millions to pay for the causes she and her peers clamor for.

madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.5 - Posts: 893)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 11:46 PM

"""Bigmama60

"In fact, several recent polls indicate that Americans do support paying for health care reform through taxes on the wealthy:"

Squeeze 'em till their pips squeak. Many of them acquire their wealth on the backs of the less well off anyway. """

That gasping sound you hear is Karl Marx having an orgasm.



clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 12:01 AM

In fact i wrote that, not Bev. And yes, i'm a socialist and proud of it.

salzypat
Salzypat  (Level: 156.3 - Posts: 5315)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 12:01 AM

Bigmama, I do watch the news - and having been in the newspaper business, I know slanted news when I see it.

1. I do not consider Rush Limbaugh anything but a political entertainer. He says enough truth to capture an audience; that doesn't mean his word is gospel to many conservatives.

2. Ditto Glen Beck. I find him too radically conservative for even my conservative views.

You and I are viewing the same actions by President Obama. You are choosing to see what you want to see; I am seeing what I choose to see. History will determine which of us had 20/20 vision.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 12:09 AM

Colleen - it's late and I'm really tired......and I still scared the animals cackling at that Marx comment. BOLOL!

lodi
Lodi  (Level: 98.7 - Posts: 2144)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 12:16 AM

Have they decided where the "wealthy" line is yet?

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 12:21 AM

Madame

Squeeze 'em till their pips squeak. Many of them acquire their wealth on the backs of the less well off anyway. """

That gasping sound you hear is Karl Marx having an orgasm


*******************************************************************************

Why not ? The next sounds you'll hear, should we live that long, will be our little grand and great- grand children laughter. After all, we are the ones who made them rich. We made it comfortable for their s*** the Wall Street crowd has. Now it's Main Street time You betcha.

Karma is a b*****

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 12:23 AM

Jank0614
Colleen - it's late and I'm really tired......and I still scared the animals cackling at that Marx comment. BOLOL!

I don't know know what a BOLOL is, but i digress. Obama is certainly no socialist, but let me tell you what socialism really is. It's about everyone having enough before the few get more than they need. It's about looking after the runt of the little before the corporate pig get's its oversized snout in the trough. It's the fat pigs that are cackling nervously.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 12:30 AM

Clevercloggs

Canada is lambasting republicans for lying about their socialized medicine.

madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.5 - Posts: 893)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 2:38 AM

Socialism is not about people. It's about power. Power to nationalize or otherwise control corporate conglomerates and financial institutions, power to stifle dissent, power to intimidate, and it creeps up a bit at a time until it's too late. Call that paranoia if you wish ... there's a whole lot of reality behind it.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 2:47 AM

Madamec8
Socialism is not about people. It's about power. Power to nationalize or otherwise control corporate conglomerates and financial institutions, power to stifle dissent, power to intimidate, and it creeps up a bit at a time until it's too late. Call that paranoia if you wish ... there's a whole lot of reality behind it.
And capitalism isn't about controlling companies and the banking industry ? You want to see intimidation and the stifling of dissent you try going on an anti capitalism demo.

madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.5 - Posts: 893)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 3:11 AM

I don't know what you mean by an anti-capitalism demo. It sounds silly, actually. Capitalism is about private ownership of banks and corporations; we can't even trust the government to regulate them let alone run them. If your demos involve trespassing on private property, damn straight you should be stifled, you have no right to be there or to disrupt their business. If you get hurt in the process, that's on you.

The current form of government allows protest and demonstrations. I have a difficult time believing that a socialist government would permit anti-socialism demos.

Of course we live on opposite sides of the pond.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 4:08 AM

Obama is no socialist, Dave?

If not, certainly not far from that. He is in no way a capitalist.

oldcougar
Oldcougar  (Level: 219.7 - Posts: 1935)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 4:34 AM

Canada has had nationalized health care for more than 40 years & we haven't gone broke yet, in fact we're in a much better financial state than the US at present. We are not a Socialist country (I wish we were).

Sweden is a Socialist country & has a very high standard of living.

Both countries are rated well above the US on the standard of living index & have been for years, not just in this financial crisis.



clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 5:37 AM

You've no chance reasoning with the "I'm Alright Jack" brigade. Coolio doesn't seem to mind living in what is traditionally the most socialist country in Europe.

achad
Achad  (Level: 204.2 - Posts: 661)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 6:06 AM

Randy,

The Swedish Institute of Trade reported in 2002 that "the median household income in Sweden at the end of the 1990s was the equivalent of $26,800, compared with a median of $39,400 for U.S. households". If Sweden were introduced to the U.S. as a new state, it would rank as the poorest according to these standards. This is in light of the fact that these numbers are gross values - before taxes - and Sweden has the highest taxes in the world. The same report also shows that Swedes fare lower than the lowest American socio-economic class, working-class black males.

Many people (my girlfriend included) left Sweden in the 70's & 80's because of the oppressive 'big brother' state of the government.
Stockholm now has rising numbers of homeless, many of whom have drink and/or drug problems. Rents are rising beyond the means of many pensioners and the cost of living has risen dramatically over the last few years (my beers have gone up by about 50% since 2006 !).

Andy.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 6:07 AM

Dave, the question was whether Obama was a socialist, not whether I prefer to live in a western democracy that is more capitalist or more socialist.

Obama is a statist and he is pretty close to a socialist. What he did with GM and Chrysler is the best example to focus upon.

Now can we return to the title topic?

That would be racism and the racial stereotyping done by both Prof Gates and President Obama.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 7:32 AM

I could be wrong here, and don't mind admitting it if I am. My understanding of the bailout of GM and Chrysler was that they were supposed to restructure and pay back the loans, getting the interest back in the companies?

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 7:39 AM

I believe most observers consider that money gone forever.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 7:46 AM

I have been hearing that several companies have been paying the money back, here's to hoping.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 8:03 AM

Those would be the banks forced to take TARP money to cover for the banks that really needed it. But those banks became disgusted with the federal directives (control of salaries, for example) that came with that money and they sought to pay it back ASAP.

Maybe you can also hope that the feds could really reduce health care costs.

And believe in the Pied Piper as well !!!

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 8:10 AM

If hoping that our country recovers is equivalent to believing in fairy tales...then I guess we had all better start building those bomb shelters, hording the food, buying guns and kissing our butts goodbye, THE END IS NEAR...BOO!. You bring Chicken Little to mind.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 8:10 AM

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,534902,00.html?test=latestnews seems like the cops arrived with no preconceived idea about a posible intruderand this woman says she had never seem the professor. Bet she'll think rwice before being a good citizrn again. What a gigantic blundeer by Obama

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 8:11 AM

Back to Gates/Crowely issue

The neighbor has stepped forward. She said she did not report 2 Black men rather 2 men; interesting

oldcougar
Oldcougar  (Level: 219.7 - Posts: 1935)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 8:11 AM

Andy, my comments were based on the human development index for 2008, here's a link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index


I know Sweden is currently experiencing major problems, as are most of the economies in the World, along with Canada. It will be interesting to see where everyone rates in the 2009 report.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 8:26 AM

Off topic but Goddesx mentioned it so... Ford who toook no bailout funds is the big loser in this and believe, forgive my cynicism, it is deliberate. The govermenyt "cash for klunkers" provides a rebate for new car buyers. Chysler is mathing those funds. With whose money a skeptical person might ask? Yo got it. Just as in healthcare when the government rumms anything like the public option in healthcare they can undercut anyone as they have unlimited money- they print it. It would be far cheaper for DPS to pay the fine and drop BS/BS and I would have the public option health care

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 117.7 - Posts: 1745)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 8:31 AM

Andy once again you never tire of pissing everyone off. Clevercloggs I luv ya, you are my new hero. I am just a little to the right of Chairman Mao myself. I really am a Socialist but since the democratic party is the closest thing we have, it will have to do.
However, I am not going to argue politics with right wing reactionary's on SS and living in other socialist countries. That said, good morn yall and keep up the good fight Dave.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 11:24 AM

The woman who called has olive skin as she is of Portugese descent. On a form where it is asked she would most likely check the "white" box. She has been villified for being a racist caller. She did not identify the men she saw by race as she could not see their skin color. Seems Gates is the racist as he screamed something lijke, "Are you going tio believe a white woman over me?" The woman just wants to be left along after calling to report what she believed to be a break-in. The 911 tape will sokon be released-just heard coverage from someone who ha heard it-race was NEVER mentioned.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 1:43 PM

Wow,
Linda there you go again name calling. Since when does discussing racial profiling make a person a racist?

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 2:13 PM

I'm sorry, Bobo.

I really must stop posting those (mean-spirited) FACTS !!!!!!

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 2:18 PM

Please carry on, Linda.

For anyone willing to read a few early reports of this incident (instead of just assuming a racial profiling case and grasping at straws to prove that, Beverly) it was obvious that the only participants who injected race into this case were Gates and Obama.

This is not going to play well on Main Street and it shouldn't.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 2:21 PM

LOL you should talk about name-calling. Accusing someone of racial oprofiling is a racial remark. White people who get arrested by either a Black or White cop may scream entrapment or something similar but never heard of one case where a white person accused a cop of racial profiling. That makes Gates racist by his remarks.: as it is the"Catchphrase" for someone who is)

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 2:22 PM

Did you notice the stock market today, Andy?

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 3:52 PM

Beverly, I do not react to one day moves of the market. And I see a rather neutral day, no?

Regrettably I think the nation is in for a lot more pain before things get close to humming again.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 4:08 PM

Just be grateful we're not still in the free fall Bush scuttled away and left us in.

And keep your seatbelts fastened, there is still plenty of turbulence ahead.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 4:26 PM

Not a result of Bush's actions or inactions, Donna.

Origins in bill offered by Wall Street, signed by Clinton. Not controlled by Fed under Greenspan.

Plus AIG which no one knew about in time.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 4:56 PM

Well, it seems like no one wants to address the idiot in Michigan using terrorist tactics to make the President apologize.


http://www.breitbart.tv/mccotter-readies-house-resolution-calling-for-presidential-apology-to-cambridge


He may not be racial profiling but he sure is acting like a nutty loon.

You people say Obama wastes money? This is crazy. Wake up people



caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 5:02 PM

You don't really want me to post the wasteful spending like the mouse in Nancy's district, do you?

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 5:09 PM

Why not? it's you view point. Although, I didn't know see had a mouse in office


collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.8 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 5:33 PM

Rep McCotter doesn't sound like any idiot to me, Beverly. Quite a reasonable presentation.

The President should apologize; he should have done it last week.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 6:06 PM

From what I see now the here demographics reflect complex.

madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.5 - Posts: 893)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 6:22 PM

What???

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 6:56 PM

Beverly, your last post made every bit as much sense a yourr posts usually do. Still waiting for your source on the Republican who planted the question in the press conference-probably Cheney or Palin

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 7:14 PM

Remember: Don't drink and post! Linda Rocks!

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 8:10 PM

President Obama kind of apologized.

I think Beverly owes republicans here an apology for making such an outrageous statement that republicans were the ones responsible for the question about the Gates arrest...

Either an apology or proof. I'll be just as glad for either one.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 8:12 PM

Is it really so far fetched?

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 8:27 PM

Whether it's far fetched or not isn't the point. Nothing is far fetched any more. Nothing anyone in politics does any more surprises me.

The only thing that matters to me is the truth.

And if any communication between humans means anything, one can't make insulting, outrageous claims as though they were fact, and not need to provide some factual support, or anything that person ever says again is suspect, and all respect for that person is lost.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 8:39 PM

Nothing is far fetched any more. Nothing anyone in politics does any more surprises me. ( We agree on that!)



smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 8:43 PM

Okay, right after the apology for saying the Democrats planted the question.

This is getting beyondo bizarro.

asor
Asor  (Level: 155.7 - Posts: 589)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 8:48 PM

Life's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too short for any of this.

Over and out out out.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21599)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 8:56 PM

Don't believe anyone accused the Democrats of planting anything although one said they believed the question was planted. Straight from Gibbs that Obama was briefed that a question like that might be asked. Most now agree he should have been better briefed on the facts However, am aware that soome don't see it that way


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