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madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.5 - Posts: 893)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 9:34 PM

HOW MANY UNINSURED IN THE U.S.?



The hyperbole used by the Administration declaring urgency to legislate and immediately fund a program is alarming -- this is the tactic that high pressure salesmen and con artists use to keep people from taking the time to think and investigate the facts. Their response to challenges is if nobody can come up with a different solution, they have no grounds to criticize. That's hooey.

We need to examine the 'given' or premise that the government should and can fix the health care problem. If the way it handled Medicare D is any indicator, we should run the other way. The insurance and pharmaceutical companies were the true winners, and you can bet they'll be lobbying hard to skew any program their way.

Taxpayers will get dinged an extra $500 billion to benefit a relatively small number of people at the expense of the majority. Let's look at the facts.

#1 Excluding illegal immigrants, the number of chronically uninsured in the U.S. is 20-30 million.

#2 As many as 15% are eligible for government programs, so they are already covered.

#3 Over 50% can afford insurance but choose not to purchase it. (40% of the nonelderly uninsured adults earn 2.5 times the poverty level)

#4 60% of the uninsured are under 35 and most are in good to excellent health.

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2009/06/ ... are-there/
http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2009/06/ ... ot-matter/

I have excellent medical insurance which includes prescription drugs, as part of my retirement package. I also pay a chunk of money for it, but it's worth it. I worked for years for that benefit, and quite frankly I don't want it diluted to 'spread the cost' of a mega-billion dollar program that a few actually need.

I could easily say I can't afford my monthly premium ... because I have to do without a lot of other things. I just had to make it a priority and balance the rest around it.

I know of people who won't buy car insurance because it costs so much. It's not that they can't afford it ... they just want to spend their money on other things. I pay a higher premium to cover the liability of underinsured motorists. The law says they have to have insurance. But just like cell phone laws, there's no teeth in it, and people know it.




bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 9:47 PM

I don't care for the statistics in your post and I question them. I am not of age for retirement and have no insurance through my job. Most employers now offer insurance but it is at a high cost and the insurance sucks. If it comes to eating and paying for shelter that is priority over insurance. So I guess I should just hope I don't die until I am eligible for medicare. Maybe it is okay for you, you have insurance. I am sure it won't be okay for my family if I do become ill and have medical bills or don't have insurance so I can just go ahead a do someone like you a favor and die. Why? Oh yeah because I have been lazy all these years and can't pay for medical care. Bull, I have been working my tail off too for many years in field of endeavor that don't have adequate insurance programs. So I guess I must fall thru one of the proverbial cracks in your stats.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 10:02 PM

MadamecX

I also know of people who can't buy car insurance or any bills because

1. They are bankrupt due expensive health care cover.
2. They have lost their jobs
3 Their out of pocket deductibles and co-pays are too expensive.

They can't afford it either... they need to spend their money on bare necessities .

alvandy
Alvandy  (Level: 229.4 - Posts: 7561)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 10:04 PM

There are hundreds of thousands who have lost health insurance due to job losses and plant closings just within the past 7 months.

This number is rising daily. I work with unemployed people as part of my job at a local United Way. Most can't afford COBRA.
State Welfare Departments medical insurance is on the rise. Who pays for that?

It should be a national disgrace to let so many go uninsured. Employer based coverage is dwindling. Emergency room health care is increasing. It just happened to one of my close relatives whose family is without health insurance.

Let's take a really close and open minded approach to solving the problem.







jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 10:27 PM

Cobra is practically useless. I know of no one who could ever afford it.

But, no one goes without care. Every county hospital is required to take in whoever walks in their door in need of emergency help.

There is medicaid also. There is welfare and there are food stamps (cards). There are churches that help those who cannot help themselves. There is help out there.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 10:39 PM

Bull---- Jan I respect you but we differ on this one completely. No one is going to pay medical bills for me if I am critically ill. Emergency rooms of county hospitals put a bandaid on even the most critical ailments and send you on your way if you are not insured. I also wouldn't rely on churches for all my medical needs. You have to have children or be disabled to be entitled to medicaid. We weren't even talkiing about food stamps by the way. This is a thread on health care a basic need. I am sorry but even prayer doesn't help if you don't have insurance. I am surprised some at you for being so callous when so many have lost their insurance or can't afford it.

kaufman
Kaufman  (Level: 256.8 - Posts: 3936)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 10:41 PM

No one goes in without care. But they can lie in the waiting rooms for hours while the extra paperwork is being processed to make sure someone will pay for them. Critical hours when a condition goes from correctable to fatal. Lives have been lost because of this.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 10:42 PM

I only mention food stamps because that frees up money for the family to use for their own health care.

I guess Texas is different. I wish every state was as wonderful as this state in taking care of people.

I've never seen a church turn anyone in need away. I've seen the pastor drive people to the hospital.

But when I broke my foot (and even a tooth) while in college without health insurance, the hospital took care of my foot and the county health services took care of my tooth.

I'm sorry it's not like that everywhere.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 10:45 PM

Emergency rooms don't work on a first come/first serviced. They handle patients in order of the critical nature of their need.

And heck, EVERYBODY waits in a waiting room at the hospital for minor things, insurance or not. Surely you don't believe that national healthcare will cause you to spend less time in a waiting room?

EVERYTHING the government touches adds yet another "middle man" that takes even MORE time, not less time.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 10:45 PM

Jan

As Alvandy has pointed out in his thread churches, ER rooms etc.proves to me less is more a burden at this point.That's why people are are criticizing Republicans wanting the President to fail just to scoring poltical points with lies and dis- information.

That's ludicrous to sacrifice the people's lives for re-control in 2010. Hey been there done . The people have said in the last election we don't want the of the "Same Ole Thing."

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 10:59 PM

Beverly, that's not why they want Obama to fail. They don't want people to hurt. Just the opposite. They believe that what this administration is doing will hurt MORE people because they have facts and figures that prove it CAN'T work (and even the CBO told Obama it's not feasible - there's not money for this healthcare program). And not only can it NOT work, but it will destroy what we have now, which is the best healthcare system in the world, which just needs tweaking - not a major overhaul.

Republicans believe that throwing trillions of $$ at problems won't fix them - so far it hasn't fixed the problems - it's just added to the problems. Unemployment continues to grow, as the administration admits it will continue to grow till the end of the year at least. Republicans don't believe in using the country as a giant lab to use the millions of us citizens as guinea pigs for programs with no proof that they work.

On the path this administration is on, if it succeeds in pushing through all these programs, this country is ruined. So of course they want the president to fail in his agendas. Republicans don't want this country to become socialist. (Or at least Conservative repubs don't. Who the heck knows what's going on with those in the party that keep voting opposite from the wishes of the people who voted them in).

Where there is massive money involved, there is massive corruption involved. All that money is not going to the people who need it.

So these programs may be causing more problems than they're fixing. There are growing numbers of articles out there of complaints about how the stimulus money is disappearing and not being tracked and no one knows what's happening, and how $$ that was supposed to go to create jobs is not going where it's supposed to.

If it was all working, it would be great. But it's practically impossible for it to work. Anything that doesn't work with your checkbook and bank account doesn't work for the country, either. Guaranteeing loans from a Communist country? When did anyone ever decide to sell that as a good idea?

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 11:12 PM

Jan
I'm not hearing the same thing.


http://www.thecherrycreeknews.com/content/view/4862/2/
***During a recent appearance on right-wing radio show, Sen. Jim Inhofe (R-OK) bluntly stated that defeating Obama's health care agenda is "going to be a huge gain for those of us who want to turn this thing over in the 2010 election." In a separate radio appearance, Inhofe -- speaking for the right wing -- explained, "We are plotting the demise on a week by week basis of where Bill Clinton was in 1993 and where Obama is today and his demise ratio is greater than Clinton's was in 1993

***BATTLE OF WATERLOO: Speaking on a conference call with "tea party" activists, Sen. Jim DeMint (R-SC) let slip why he hopes that health reform fails: "If we're able to stop Obama on this it will be his Waterloo. It will break him." Sen. George Voinovich (R-OH) half- admitted the truth about conservative opposition to health reform, telling CNBC that the balance between opponents' desire to express disagreement with the President and their desire to exploit a failed bill for political gain is "probably 50-50." Yet even as conservatives plot to leave tens of millions of Americans without health care in order to score political points on Obama, they refuse to release a single new idea to address the health care crisis


Jan
These are the same people who spent billions of dollars on "Weapons of Mass Deception" (yep that's right deception) for the black gold (oil), Haliburton, Boeing, and other war profiteers. How can I trust they have the people's best interest at hear in 2010?
Look at Cheney and his lies.
No more going backwards into that collage!

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 11:17 PM

Ok - I WANT to know about Cheney and his lies.

Please tell me where VP Cheney lied? What did he say?

Please show links to quotes. I very much want to read them.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 11:23 PM

Health care for all, free at the point of need, what a tyrant that Obama is. Most civilised countries see that as a minimum requirement this century. I hear fewer objections about spending billions to protect the oil and gas interests of billionaires.

madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.5 - Posts: 893)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 11:35 PM

Bobo, you don't care for the stats ... and you question them ... but they are documented. You miss my point -- if you think the cost of health care is high now, just enact a $500 billion program to create a huge bureaucracy that will further bankrupt this country and gives no guarantee that it will serve those who need it.

I worked for 40 years, like many starting in entry level jobs that had no benefits. Understand that employers offered benefits in order to compete in the labor market, and so the name of the game was to get the credentials these employers wanted. I'm not saying I worked any harder than you, Bobo, but I had to face reality. I raised my two children alone from the time they were little, and the one time I needed temporary help with foodstamps was humiliating. And now I'm retired on a fixed income and it takes some doing for me to pay for my supplemental insurance. But I'll gladly pay for it and get the care I need than be at the mercy of the government who plays fast and loose with our money and becomes a bottleneck.

I am not heartless about those who have lost their insurance, we all know that what we enjoy can be taken away, there is no 'right' to any benefit. But that's true of the government as well as the private sector.

Now, it's important that we get health care to that small % of Americans who need it, of course. But is it really necessary to rip apart the health care system we currently have to do it? Yes, we all want better coverage that's more affordable and easier to navigate. Obama's plan doesn't solve any of these. All it does is help less than 5% of the country get health insurance, while putting the rest of us through a tangled maze of bureaucracy, for worse care that costs just as much, maybe more. The long-term effects are even more frightening, but in the short term do we really want to penalize the many in favor of the (very) few?

madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.5 - Posts: 893)
Sun, 26th Jul '09 11:40 PM

To EDITOR: I double-posted, can you remove one of them, they're rather lengthy. Thank you. Colleen

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 12:07 AM

Texas?
Jan
It is the worst state for health care. I really think you are a kind person because they are pulling the wool over you eyes. You know Texas, the State, whose wanted governor to secede from the US. BTW: that's treason. I don't think you really know Texas. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#32133940

After about 1 and1/2 minutes you'll see what I mean. You should listen to the whole thing though about this ludicrous, paranoia, "socialist, Government Take Over" scam is being expounded by Republicans now. Pl -e-a-s-e-e, their Pollster Frank Luntz, the brains behind these choice words is taking a little money under the table too.



jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 12:13 AM

Beverly - leading me to a liberal Rachel Maddow opinion video and expecting me to believe it is the equivalent of me giving you a Rush Limbaugh video link and expecting you to believe it.

salzypat
Salzypat  (Level: 156.3 - Posts: 5315)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 12:19 AM

As a reporter covering health issues, I interviewed many new doctors to our community, several of them from Canada. Why did they leave Canada? Because of the health-care system and the fact they couldn't practice medicine the way they knew it should be practiced.

One of my favorite sayings is to measure twice and cut once. President Obama is grabbing pieces of lumber and sawing away without finding out where the boards will go or whether they will fit with the other boards.

Another of my favorite sayings is "Decide in haste, repent in leisure."

A lot more thought needs to go into this healthcare issue.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 12:26 AM

Salzypat
As a reporter covering health issues, I interviewed many new doctors to our community, several of them from Canada. Why did they leave Canada? Because of the health-care system and the fact they couldn't practice medicine the way they knew it should be practiced.
....................Either that or they were just plain greedy.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 12:33 AM

I have freinds in Canada who agree with you Clevercloggs. They are greedy.

oldcougar
Oldcougar  (Level: 219.7 - Posts: 1935)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 4:56 AM

Many of those doctors who left Canada for the States left for financial reasons & guess what, the grass wasn't greener so they're returning home in droves. Many of the problems we have in Health Care are created by the medical boards which are controlled by the doctors, who are almost exclusively specialists. The specialists give themselves healthy paychecks & very little to GP's, hence we are suffering a dearth of GP's. Still, if you have a serious health problem here you don't end up in bankruptcy. My MRSA problem & all the medical care I've had over the last 2 years would have cost us our home if we'd not had universal health care.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 5:01 AM

And who created the medical boards?

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 5:33 AM

Let's take it to the logical conclusion then Coolio. Who is the supreme commander of US military forces ? If it's the government's fault the medical boards are abused, it was Bush's fault what happened in Gitmo, Abu Graib etc. I haven't heard you calling for him to be arrested.

alvandy
Alvandy  (Level: 229.4 - Posts: 7561)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 7:44 AM

Please don't forget that hospitals that provide emergency room care PASS those costs along.
They are added to the premiums that employers and individuals pay for their health care coverage.
As more people will use the emergency room [if they lost their coverage already then they will have to]- the premiums will rise.
Many employers will drop their plans. The spiral downward will continue.
Some of us will lose their coverage or have the co-pays and deductibles increase dramatically.

Private health care insurance providers have a 30% administrative overhead cost.
Medicare administrative costs?= you will be surprised at the low cost of "bureaucracy".





jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 8:14 AM

But isn't Medicare the example of what Government controlled health care will be? It's almost broke.

We've all paid in, as with Social Security, and both are close to broke because the government mishandled the funds.

Neither program has been run the way we were told they would be when started.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 8:18 AM

All I have to say is I am not getting any younger and I have no health insurance. Therefore any health care plan is better than none. I have worked my a-- all my life and have no insurance, so I really don't want to here any conservative lip service. No, you are right perhaps the government will waste some of the taxpayers money but is that any reason not to have a program. NO!
Emphatically NO, that is one of the reasons I voted for Obama and why I am a Democrat. At least their platform calls for them to legislate a national health care plan. Please don't give me your I was a single mother and now on a fixed income, DO YOU HAVE INSURANCE? If you do and you get it thru medicare -
I am helping to subsidize YOUR insurance because I am still working and paying for medicare and SS. Please don't argue with someone who is tired from working graveyard shifts and paying for YOUR insurance while I have none.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 8:34 AM

This thread is long aklready but in response to Ken, if so many people are added to health care believe most will be lying in emergency rooms for hours or standing in endless lies. You cannot have governmentm run and excellent in the same breath. Most family docs here won't even give you an appointment with Medicare only. I have a doc because I have Medicare Advantage which the first thing out of Obama's mouth wwas he was going to cut. You bet your butt I oppose the public option. Fix what we already have. Don't reeinvent the wheel.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 9:12 AM

Obama and company keeps changing the goal. His first sell was that we must bring down the costs of health care-believe everyojne is on board withy that one. However, the CBO a independent agency has shot down the current proposals out there on cost savings not one but twice. First the guy said that the current proposals would not only not cut but increase the costs. Don't think that is a huge surprise to anyone. They then proposed some kind of committee-that spells trouble from the initial word-to cut costs out of Medicare. The CBO has replied that it MIGHT cut 2 billion over the next 10 years but might not. We are talking trillions here. Now Obama is saying cost is not the focus but coverage of the uninsured-believe most are on the same page here. The problem comes in when people expext "free" to be as good as something people have worked all of their lives to pay for. In the end nothing is free and it will decrease quality for all.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 9:41 AM

There are all kinds of statistics and they can be used to prove virtually anything. All very nice to quote numbers, but for those 20-30 million upclose and personal real human beings (a LOT of people, in my mind, and rising) those numbers don't mean much in the grand scheme of things, and I question the right of the compilers of numbers to tell the poorest 30 million people in America what they can and cannot afford.

Some may hide their heads in the comfortable sand of their own good fortune, and good on them, but I've been saying for 30 years that if something wasn't done to fix the health care "system" this was going to be a mean, ugly country to get old in. Boomers are getting older and sicker - and poorer and less insured - by the day, and the coldness of "let them go to the emergency room" takes my breath away. Cake, anyone?

FACT: One-third of adults (31 percent) and more than half of all children (54 percent) do not have a primary care doctor (National Medical Expenditure Panel Survey)

FACT: 46.6 million Americans, (15.9 percent of Americans -- about twice the population of Texas) were uninsured in 2005. (U.S. Census - August 2006)

FACT: More than two-thirds of uninsured adults in the United States, worked in 2005. In other words, 39.8 million workers, who had no health care -- more than the population of Canada.

FACT: Federal spending for health care totaled more than $600 billion in 2005, or roughly one quarter of the federal budget. (U.S. Office of Management and Budget)

FACT: The total medical expenditures for full- and part-year uninsured in 2004 came to nearly $124 billion -- more than the combined appropriations in 2004 for Iraq and the anti-terror programs.

FACT: Of 23 industrialized countries, the United States had the highest infant mortality rates. U.S. rates were similar to those of Poland and Hungary. (OECD, Commonwealth Fund Scorecard, 2006)

FACT: The United States ranked among the bottom of industrialized countries on healthy life expectancy at age 60 -- meaning Americans spend more years lived in poor health resulting from chronic illness or disability. (OECD, Commonwealth Fund: Results from a Scorecard, 2006)

FACT: Barely half -- about 49 percent -- of adults receive recommended preventive care and screening tests according to guidelines for their age and sex. (Commonwealth Fund Scorecard 2006)

FACT: Close to 100,000 Americans die annually from medical errors -- more than double the number of Americans who die annually in car crashes (Institute of Medicine).

[abcnews.com]

I too voted for the hope of health care reform, though I have doubts that it can ever get past the powerful medical, drug and insurance lobbies that own both parties. Nor do I think current proposals go far enough, and it may even make things worse. I favor a single-payer plan modeled on the VA. If it's good enough for our veterans, it should be good enough for everyone.

Of course, if you want more personalized treatment, be seen immediately, get multiple opinions, consult specialists and try alternative remedies, if you have the money to pay for it, by all means, go "off the grid" and pay out of pocket to consult the specialists who will still want to make more than they can get from the government, or buy extraordinary care insurance at high rates at your own expense.

Opponents scream about "rationing health care," well it's already rationed - the well-off get the best care their money and insurance can buy, and the poor ignore lumps and go without medication and die in emergency rooms. That is a gap that should be closed. There should be basic, quality, preventative, maintenance and critical care available at all times to 100% of our citizens, and it's a barbarian disgrace that it is not.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 9:45 AM

Bobo, we work too.

What do you do when you run out of other people's money?

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 9:47 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tort_reform people who want to cut cost not only in health care should seriously examine this aspect. Doctors and hospitals are forced to give test after test for fear of being sued-US folks sue happpy. It won't be though as the lawyer lobby is so incredibly powerful Look at the health care in MA which tries to cover everyone-mess. People are still flocking to emergency rooms because if they can find a primary care physician, they have to wait so long to see them they will probably die or suffer pain for a very long time

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 10:00 AM

By the way, I believe the reason for the higher infant mortality rate in the United States is the use of illegal drugs by young pregnant women. The number of babies born addicted to drugs is staggering.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 10:04 AM

Wouldn't it be great if more access to family planning education and contraceptives, and to drug addiction therapies and rehabs were available to those young women? Those two measures alone would probably make a huge improvement in the infant mortality rate.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 10:39 AM

Wouldn't it be great if they just didn't use illegal drugs and alcohol and took care of themselves so the government didn't have to do it for them?

Oh - and here's another reason infant mortality is so high in the United States:

http://baby.families.com/blog/why-the-us-infant-mortality-rate-is-so-high

"f you're thinking our health care system stinks and that's why so many babies are dying. . .think again. While certainly universal access to health care (or lack thereof) does have an influence on whether or not mothers get adequate prenatal care, the reality is that the United States pushes the boundaries on what can be done in both fertility and neonatal medicine.

One reason as to why so many babies are dying is that doctors are saving more premature babies with advanced technologies. But these super preemies don't always live. The younger an infant is born and the less it weighs, the more likely it is to die. These precious little angels also contribute to the infant mortality rate. But many countries that 'beat' the United States on the list, won't use 'heroic measures' to save super preemies."


madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.5 - Posts: 893)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 10:49 AM

Bobo, you're cherry picking and you're not paying attention. If you are in such dire financial straits, you are likely not paying much in income taxes, nor is your % of FICA a whole lot. As far as YOU paying for MY insurance -- you forget --I paid into Social Security for 40 years, and all of us had to pay more and more as the SS funds were depleted. Yes, I am on Medicare today -- as are most retirees. The idea being of course that when we retire we're out of the work force. Do you begrudge the elderly their coverage just because you aren't old enough to get Medicare? Be careful of that mindset, you're going to be that age some day.

You MUST know, though -- my Medicare premium is $100 per month. My private Medicare supplement plan costs me an additional $400 a month. It doesn't cost you a dime. That's $500 a month, just for me, and I pay for my own prescription coverage, I do not have Medicare plan D (what a joke that is). I don't have that insurance just because I was lucky ... I positioned myself a long time ago so that I would. I worked in a high stress job (and went to school at night for 6 years), and I was tired all the time.

Yes, I am on a fixed income and I have to do without things I'd like in order to pay for my insurance. But that's life, we're all in some boat one way or another, but I was taught (by liberal parents, by the way) that if I wanted something it was up to me to earn it, plan for it, instead of waiting for something to happen. If you wait, trust me, nothing will happen. That has nothing to do with my political label (which by the way is not accurate, if you had been paying attention, you'd know otherwise). It's reality.

fudypatootie
Fudypatootie  (Level: 197.2 - Posts: 1302)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 11:58 AM

I am one of the uninsured in the nation and I don't want Obamacare.

When I had a hysterectomy 4 years ago, my insurance covered 80%. The hospital was not willing to accept our payments unless they were enough to pay off the total in 6 months time. We could not do that and they turned us over to collections. We took out a personal loan to pay off the hospital and then paid off the loan over the next year.

Now that I'm unemployed, if I go to the doctor, I pay it off $50 at a time, as pre-arranged with the clinic.

When I had tachycardia, even though I was insured, I sat in the emergency room for 4 hours and still didn't see a doctor until I got mad and told them at the desk I was leaving. Boy, did they show up fast then.

We can debate the politics all day long and never sway anyone's opinion, as we all know is true. However, when it comes to health care, there's a lot more than politics involved. It often comes down to the fact that hospitals are for-profit entities and they want their money and they don't care who they get it from. There's nothing wrong with making a profit, per se, but people should be able to make reasonable payments, whether they have insurance or not.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 2:12 PM

Cloggs and Surreyman, heard bits and pieces of a story saying Britian is considering some kind of charge no for doc visits-memory tells me about $30 . Any truth to that? The story was a bit back but intimated that Britian was having trouble funding the free health care and was leaning this way-Thanks-Linda

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 4:24 PM

Funding the NHS will always be a problem. Any government that dealt it a fatal blow would never get elected again though. Thatcher, the bitch, came close to destroying it, one of the few things this (right wing) New Labour government has done right is to get the funding of the NHS back up again. If we can afford to follow the Yanks into illegal and immoral wars, we can afford to look after our ill.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 5:04 PM

Is there now a charge for doctor visits?

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 5:15 PM

Jan what do you do when you criticize from the pulpit. What do you do when people work hard all their life and die young because they weren't privy to your insurance. Whose money Jan, ALL OUR MONEY. That means people like YOU and mostly fat cats who need to give back to society for the elitist life style they lead. Everyone will have to pay so that we can become a healthier and fundamentally better off society. If you don't like it why don't you pray or lobby Texas to secede again. Another words I don't care for your conservative fundamentalism anymore than you care for my opinions.

madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.5 - Posts: 893)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 6:52 PM

Bobo, if you were one of those fat cats who had gotten their insurance fair and square, would you be willing to sacrifice it and do with less?

But your assumption that a national health care plan would give you the coverage you want at a price you can afford is only speculation. Health insurance is not a commodity that can be divvied up.

Your 'from each according to his means' to 'each according to his needs' is a dangerous path, and it will pull our country down like you wouldn't believe. And you'll find yourself out in the cold, even more than you are now.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 7:04 PM

That would be impossible since I have NO insurance, so any plan would be better than the one I have. I don't have a primary care physcian and have not been screened for different things in a long time. Oh and you assume I am not paying much in FICA therefore I don't deserve insurance. I do understand that you have earned you medicare, will it be there for me? Who knows, all I know is we need health care reform in this country. If you ask me you pay far too much for insurance unless you have a debilitating illness. Everyone should bear the cost of health care for the sake of all Americans. By the way I was laid off back in October went back to work and currently hold 2 jobs. One doesn't have a health plan at all, the other has an expensive health care plan that doesn't pay for s---. When I am eligible I will probably enroll because I have to have some insurance.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 8:20 PM

Bobo - I don't understand why liberals (and socialists) feel like they deserve other people's hard-earned money.

They worked hard to get it - I think they deserve to use it as they wish.

I think it makes the government the largest of thieves to think they can just take anything they wish from anyone they wish just because those people have it.

I don't mean this against anyone personally. But I believe if someone keeps themselves clean, goes to school, works hard, invents something, provides somethine the public wants, and earns a lot of money for it, they deserve every penny they make.

Why does someone who threw their money away on the wrong thing deserve their money more than they do?

And what gives anyone else the right to steal their money JUST because they want it and don't have some of their own?

The great thing about America is that anyone can get ahead here - IF you work hard and act wisely, anyone can get ahead in this country. That's why so many people want to come here - any way they can get here, legally or illegally. But each person has the responsibility to take care of yourself. No one else should be taking care of me. It's my responsibility to take care of me, pay my bills, work hard at my job, and earn every penny.

THEN it is my responsibility to give to others who need it.

But if I don't earn a good living, I have less to give to others. And I don't have to go through all the government agencies that each take a bit off the top. I can give as I choose to WHOM I choose with nobody in between to steal part of it.

Plus this government demands I pay hard earned money for things I don't believe in, like the preservation of some mouse that Pelosi wants to protect.

I kill every mouse that gets into my area. I deserve to help support my students' needs, not some mouse.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 9:51 PM

I have to add the reason I list what I do there.

For years, I didn't save money. The future was so far ahead of me I couldn't imagine needing it. I was married, I had a house and a car. I was healthy.

We lived on what my husband made, and he DID save money.

The money I made went to help others. Almost all of it - family members, people I knew who needed help. The thrill of my life was hiding things that people needed, knowing they'd find them and never know where they came from.

I did that so long that lo and behold, the day came I had a son, a divorce, a low-paying job. I woke up and realized that I forgot to help myself. By not saving, if I didn't get my act together, I was going to end up dumping my need on someone else, and nobody deserved that.

I worked FIVE part-time jobs for several years. (I work Three now - if you can call two of them work. I teach at school, I teach private lessons, I play piano at church.)

I had no insurance because all were part-time. But I was young and healthy. I had school insurance on my son.

I cut back to 3 jobs and went back to finish my teaching certificate (I never wanted to teach but that's where God led me). Fortunately, my son and I never had to depend on anyone else for help. He learned a great work ethic and has gotten every job he's ever applied for from age 16. He was one of only 3 certified nurserymen in the State of Texas at age 16. He was in the Marines for 6 years and earned every promotion meritoriously. (He missed being the youngest, fastest promoted Marine Staff Sgt in the history of the Marines by 3 months - when President Clinton put a free on promotions to save money.)

I'm just saying - if you don't take care of yourself first, you have nothing with which to help others. Do all to take care of yourself and learn and earn all you can - and then you have money to help others. Directly. Without the government taking theirs out of it.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 9:53 PM

**freeze** on promotions. Sorry.

allena
Allena  (Level: 255.5 - Posts: 1391)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 10:20 PM

Something hardly mentioned is the social security taxes paid by undocumented workers. Because the employer must have a social sec. no. or be prosecuted, the worker gets a number, maybe yours and the employer pays. When you retire, they have two sets of payments (maybe three or more) so they are sad to no longer be collecting from you. they go on collecting from the undocumented. Ask any Congressman!

That money collected is more than most insurance policies. The issues Obama raises to sell the new single payer has little to do with problems in the existing system. His backers want to control health care to be more able to control behavior. Few are unhappy ... But, he can make almost everyone unhappy. You will be looking for cheap tickets to off shore doctors if this 1000 page document flies.

The solution is tort reform. Limits on medical malpractice suits would cut costs probably by 25%. In the long run, it would be more as the unprofitable contingent law suits stop. Obama is paid too much by the trial lawyers to allow this, as of now.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 10:23 PM

What "new single payer"? Obama is NOT touting anything LIKE single payer, I'm very sorry to tell you.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 10:26 PM

I agree - tort reform and no undocumented workers receiving healthcare.

The one thing I'd like to see in return is the disappearance of the term "pre-existing condition." If you're insured with a company, you should be covered whether it before or not.

allena
Allena  (Level: 255.5 - Posts: 1391)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 10:34 PM

Read the bill. Those that believe that private can compete with government are naive. However, he has said, "I used to not want single payer but the only way to include the young, who are very cheap to insure, is to have a songle payer system." However, it is quite unnessary to believe him. Believe what the puppet string pullers are doing.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 27th Jul '09 10:56 PM

Here, I'll go read the bill while you go find out what a single-payer health care system is, why it's the only system that offers real change and real solutions, and why it is NOT what Obama is offering.

http://www.pnhp.org/facts/single_payer_resources.php

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Tue, 28th Jul '09 2:08 AM

Caramel1
Is there now a charge for doctor visits?

No, and there never will be for those that can't afford it.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Tue, 28th Jul '09 2:30 AM

Jank0614
Bobo - I don't understand why liberals (and socialists) feel like they deserve other people's hard-earned money.

They worked hard to get it - I think they deserve to use it as they wish.

.......................And to hell with all those who can't keep up, mighty christian of you. Not everyone who is at the bottom of the heap is there because they are lazy you know. The kids who spend their childhood looking after their siblings, because their parents are too "out of it" to bother, tend not to get a great education. There are those who are born with talents that just don't sell on the employment market. There are those that were raised in towns with massive economic problems. There are those that suffer physical and mental ill health all of their lives.
Apparently these people don't deserve rights, they should just throw themselves on your mercy. Have a look at the world around you today and see how well this "grab all you can then pull up the ladder" attitude is working. Do the "haves" really enjoy life behind the high walls and security cameras ? Countries like yours and mine like to sell the line that we have achieved what we have through hard work and being inventive. To an extent that is true, but look around the world at the people we trampled underfoot to get here.
It's true, you should look after the people you pass on the way up, because you're sure to see them again on the way down. I think we could have done better than a bowl of rice in one hand and a bible in the other. Now days believers in alternative imaginary friends are offering a Kalashnikov with their bowls of rice. Rampant capitalism has worked for a very few people, but there are plenty more that are clinging to their coat tails, most will lose their grip. For most on this planet it has been an unmitigated disaster. A couple of facts to get that christian mind around................
1.2 billion people globally lack safe water to consume and 2.6 billion do not have access to adequate sanitation. Just one flush of a toilet in the West uses more water than most Africans have to perform an entire day's washing, cleaning, cooking and drinking.
What chance of this changing when you are too selfish to want to help your own sick countrytmen ?


bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Tue, 28th Jul '09 3:59 AM

http://pascrell.house.gov/apps/list/press/nj08_pascrell/pr72120093.shtml


1. MYTH: The government will choose your doctor for you.
TRUTH: You will not lose your doctor. Health reform is designed so that you can keep the insurance and the doctors that you have. In fact, health reform includes new incentives for doctors, including increased payments for primary care and a solution to the flawed Medicare physician payment formula.
2. MYTH: Members of Congress have gold-plated health insurance plans.
TRUTH: Members of Congress have access to health insurance plans through the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program (FEHBP)—just like all federal employees. In fact, plans offered through FEHBP cover a smaller proportion of costs than do other employer-provided plans, on average.
3. MYTH: You will be forced into a government-run plan.
TRUTH: No one will be forced into a government-run plan. Individuals in employer-provided coverage will be able to keep the coverage they have. Individuals without access to employer coverage will be able to choose among options that include a variety of private plans and a public health insurance option. Under no circumstances will anyone ever by forced into the public option.
4. MYTH: Health reform will result in long wait times and rationed health care.
TRUTH: Health reform will not result in long wait times or rationed health care. We already ration health care in this country based on ability to pay. Those who cannot afford health insurance and those with health insurance that cannot afford their co-pays and deductibles go without needed care and have worse health outcomes. Health reform will expand health insurance and slow the growth in health insurance premiums for these individuals. Health reform also includes significant investments in the health workforce to ensure that there is an adequate supply of doctors and health professionals to provide people with the care they need when they need it.
5. MYTH: The government will pull the plug on dying seniors (i.e. end-of-life planning).
TRUTH: There is nothing in health reform that will deny seniors or any individual needed medical care. Health reform provides for voluntary advanced care planning consultations under Medicare so that seniors can sit down with their health care providers to discuss end-of-life care, rather than leaving these decisions to families during difficult times. The advanced care planning provided for in the legislation allows for thoughtful discussion between a senior, their family, and their health care provider. The government will have no authority over the contents of such plans.
6. MYTH: Small businesses won’t be able to afford health coverage.
TRUTH: Health reform includes assistance for small employers, including exemptions from the employer responsibility requirement for certain small businesses and a new small business tax credit for those firms who want to provide health coverage to their workers but cannot afford it today. In addition to the targeted assistance, the Exchange and market reforms provide a long-sought opportunity for small businesses to benefit from a more organized, efficient marketplace in which to purchase coverage.
7. MYTH: The House Tri-Committee bill makes individual private medical insurance illegal and forces individuals into a government-run plan.
TRUTH: The provision to which this myth refers applies to health insurance purchased in the individual market—which does not include group or employer provided insurance. For those individuals with existing individual plans, they would be able to keep the insurance they have. For others, the individual (or non-group) health insurance market will be replaced with a Health Insurance Exchange in which individuals may choose among many options that include private plans and a public health insurance option. Under no circumstances will anyone ever be forced into the public health insurance option. It will be but a choice among many insurance options.
8. MYTH: A government-run plan will put bureaucrats between you and your doctor.
TRUTH: Everyday, insurance company bureaucrats stand between Americans and their doctors, and the ever-growing costs of premiums, co-pays, and deductibles prevent people from seeking the care that they need. Health reform will bring competition and choice to the insurance market and reign in health care costs so that individuals can seek the care they need and the treatments their doctors prescribe.
9. MYTH: Health reform will provide free care for illegal immigrants.
TRUTH: The House Tri-Committee bill explicitly precludes undocumented immigrants from accessing assistance through Medicaid or government-funded affordability credits.


Republicans 40 of them along with the 7 blue dogs want to force 40+ million into another give away; that would be to big business. Not giving these new customers a public option only to cause new folks loose without any to go except to a corner with a basket. That doesn’t look like socialism or “government takeover”. It looks like the greatest country on earth will become liked to an underdeveloped country.



madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.5 - Posts: 893)
Tue, 28th Jul '09 4:46 AM

Bobo, how you twist things around -- you claimed that you were paying for my Medicare coverage, and I responded that if you were in such dire financial straits you weren't likely paying a large amount of FICA. I did NOT say you didn't deserve it. It's not for you to say that I pay too much for my health insurance, nor was I complaining about it. I put those numbers up to show you that I do pay my way and am glad to do so rather than let the government mess it up.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Tue, 28th Jul '09 7:48 AM

Beverly, please be sure to print out a copy of that post. Because if this 1000 page healthcare bill passes, there's a huge chance you'll be looking back in a few years trying to figure out how you could have believed it.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Tue, 28th Jul '09 9:28 AM

Well, Jan

I see the effect now. I see a lot more people who have the ability to realize the "Government Take Over" happened pre-Obamacare with trillions of squandered dollars. That is the more where we got less. Look at how many people are not contributing to their retirement portfolios or taking their higher taxation penalities from their investments.
I see the economy making a slow infusion as a result of lay-offs and cut backs leaving people without the money for healthcare. I see retailers giving 2 for 1 sales on trinkets. Yet, the banks and Goldman Sacs get huge bonuses. This is a result of the layoffs we humped are backs off to make them comfortable. Who can afford insurance with less income especially; Cobra, Job losses or part time jobs certainly won’t?

.I wasn't talking about your employment in your state. I was talking about your governor refusing healthcare which is the lowest in the country. If you allow your party; and some numbskulls in my party too, to bamboozle you to further line these insurance companies and drug companies to dictate what you can't afford I can guarantee we'll be in a worst hole than now.

On this break the republicans will inundate the airwaves with the money your party reps have taken in exchange for their power and greed. Those scam artists (big businesses and your reps as well as some in my party's) are meant to keep the money for Wall Street instead of Main for as long as we allow it.
I hope you can see we are the stock exchanged. That is the psyche behind it



smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Tue, 28th Jul '09 10:40 AM

Beverly, it's not just the Republicans. PLENTY of Dems in thrall to big insurance and the for-profit health care "system". The party is fractured on the proposal, and if it fails it will be because of the "bluedogs" on one side and the true liberals who want real change and single-payer on the other.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Tue, 28th Jul '09 10:56 AM

Glad you mentioned Goldman Sachs, Beverely, as they will make out like bandits if Cap and Tax is ever passed. The whole thing is a huge scam. If you think DC is not filled with lobby groups, think again. The most efficient way to cut health care costs is medical malpractice reform but the lawyer lobby is too powerful.Lots of lis toko . The AMA might support the proposals out there but they do not represent a huge percentage of doctors believe less than a third just as AARP does not represent a huge precentage of old folks.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Tue, 28th Jul '09 11:34 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brhEakE84wk just because you mentined Goldman Sacs to support your argument, Beverly

buchanan
Buchanan  (Level: 81.3 - Posts: 339)
Tue, 28th Jul '09 7:29 PM

I've paid cobra once or twice due to job loss,I am not able to afford it now,it is very costly and I'm sure I don't know anyone that can afford it,I signed up for ss but can't get medicare until I'm 65 if I live that long worrying over money,I have had good luck here in my home town,they gave me a discount when I told them I had no insurance,a specialist I go to offered me a plan with a discount but I haven't sent it in yet because its loads of paperwork but I will.buchanan


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