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bbear
Bbear  (Level: 161.7 - Posts: 2301)
Thu, 20th Aug '09 7:54 PM

"KEEP THE GOVERNMENT OUT OF MY MEDICARE"

What the heck? I have seen a bunch of folks at town hall meetings with signs similar to this.

Folks, get a grip. Medicare is the best damn healthcare system on the planet and it IS run by the government. Hello?!?!?

I have Blue Cross/Blue Shield. You think that is not managed care? It is...managed care that makes billions.

I have patients on Medicaid. That is a government (state) program.

I have patient who have insurance through the VA - it is called Tri-Care. Definitely management care, but folks get what they need. Yet another federally run medical system.

I just wish I could have Medicare. My time will come in 12 years. In the meantime, I wouldn't complain about something similar. Our Blue Cross costs a mint.....

Any thoughts?

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Thu, 20th Aug '09 8:04 PM

Yup both run by the government and both broke so logically we should get Medicare for all and bankrupt the country

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Thu, 20th Aug '09 8:12 PM

If you ever want to know the truth about it and you can get your health care provider's accountant to tell you, find out how much your doctor visit costs to Medicare. Then ask how much you would pay for the visit if you were paying for it all yourself.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Thu, 20th Aug '09 8:17 PM

Sorry, Beth, did not mean to be harsh. For my working years I hads BC/BS which most was paid by my employer. Now have medicare and was given otice over a year ago than my employer had opted to put mr into Medicare/Advantage-which keeps my BC/BS and also gives me medicare. At least her in FL. it is next to impossible to get an appointment with a doc with Medicare only-tells me that the docs don't get paid well enouggh from Medicare. Medicaid is administeredd by states and those states are scared todeath the the feds are goig to stck them with more cost. If anyone believes that cuts in Medicare will, fund Medicare for all, they are nuts.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Thu, 20th Aug '09 8:19 PM

(BTW - I get what they mean - but that really makes the person holding the sign lose all validity. I mean, we have a constitutional right to act stupidly - in this way, anyway - but it hurts their cause since the other side is trolling constantly for anything to mock and belittle. It's hard enough to be heard as it is.)

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Thu, 20th Aug '09 8:40 PM

Know you are a Hospice nurse, Beth, and am glad that Hospice care is covered by both Medicare and Medicaid but making a doctor appointment with either of these only is difficult. Tort reform and perhaps government vouchers or state or local clinics with federal help maybe but not layers of government involved with Medicare for all. A bit telling that even if Obama signs something this year he says it will take until 2013 tol get the agencies in place? Why, if the government is not planning a takeover of health care?

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Thu, 20th Aug '09 11:18 PM

I am so tired of the drivel I read on here. If it weren't for medicaid and medicare many people would die. Of course the waste should be cut out and greedy hospitals and doctors should be monitored. Insurance companies are asses and so are most hospitals, so I am glad we at least have some health care in place. Maybe if we didn't continue to spend so much money on defense we would have money for the growing population of baby boomers needing healthcare. Sit and spin on it I am tired of hearing about how bad Obama is what the h--- did Bush do that was so great while he was in for 8 horrible years. He is the one who got us in this mess to begin with. That is what we get for electing a President with a C average in College. His father probably helped with tutors while he was there. I doubt he even had the intelligence to graduate on his own.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 2:14 AM

Nothing against Medicare, Beth, but it is apparently rife with fraud.

Obama and Co talk about lowering costs, but the government's management of Medicare does not qualify it for further management of health care.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 3:02 PM

Can you mange medicare better than the government; Andy? If so why don't you show your genius and non-partisanship by giving your suggestions to the White House?

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 3:30 PM

Of course, Beverly, but the government's record with Medicare and Medicaid is hardly a recommendation for more governmental control in health care. The American people understand this, and it's one of the reasons they are alarmed.

Are you listening?

Because the President isn't.

bbear
Bbear  (Level: 161.7 - Posts: 2301)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 7:59 PM

Medicare works. The VA system work. Yes there is graft in everything but nothing is as bad as private insurance companies and the outright theft of the medical system. Yes, doctors make too much money (sorry Gary) and hospitals make too much money and clinics make too much money but if this was better regulated perhaps all in this country could get decent care and a decent cost to the people as a whole.

All for one and one for all? Or is that only if you are wealthy?



sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 8:09 PM

And I would like to reiterate: Every patient admitted to my hospital in Indiana is asked about their wishes for end of life. It's mandatory. Do you want to be put on a respirator? Do you want CPR? Do you want medications to restart your heart if it stops? Same "death panel" as the new plan is suggesting. Sheesh.
Occasionally a family will try to over-ride the patients own wishes. They succeed sometimes, and keep their "loved one" alive but vegetative. Sweet.

alvandy
Alvandy  (Level: 229.7 - Posts: 7570)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 8:10 PM

Questions & food for thought-- especially to those who are on Medicare or other government regulated health care systems.

Are you confident you would be accepted as a risk, and could purchase private health insurance on your own? Affordability or prior medical conditions for example.

If you are not covered by employer based benefits- what would you be able to do?

That's what many people face everyday.

This has to be part of the debate





sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 8:14 PM

I love to reiterate, BTW. You should try it, it's fun!

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 8:18 PM

Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

(Sorry Al - I just couldn't resist!)

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 9:42 PM

So sad that the malpractice attorneys survive on a mere pittance while those "greedy" doctors live in style-oops forgot -those lawyers are major contributors to Democrats

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 9:58 PM

LOL!!!! You are so funny!!

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 7:34 AM

Beth, do you have a real response?

Or do you just not understand that the government can't effect any of the economies you'd like to see while at the same time slowing down the advance of medicine in this country?

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 8:03 AM

This is from the Washington Post speaks to the aspects of the plans out there not being defensible under the Constitution. sphttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/21/AR2009082103033.html?hpid=opinionsbox1eaks

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 8:20 AM

Linda, your links won't work without a space before the http part of the address.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 8:32 AM

http: //www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/21/AR2009082103033.html?hpid=opinionsbox1thanks Smoke-not sure if I spaced properly. Sometimes links work and sometimes not another computer mystery beyond my realm of comprehension


pepperdoc
Pepperdoc  (Level: 152.5 - Posts: 4286)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 8:35 AM

Linda, I think you just needed to remove the "sp" in front of http.

Try this:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/21/AR2009082103033.html?hpid=opinionsbox1eaks


pepperdoc
Pepperdoc  (Level: 152.5 - Posts: 4286)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 8:36 AM

Oops. You already did that.

Carry on.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 8:58 AM

Perhaps someone can explain for me why it is any more unconstitutional to require people to carry health insurance than it is to require automobile insurance, or drivers' licenses, for that matter.

Unconstitutionality was an argument used against Social Security and Medicare. Didn't hold up then, either.


smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 11:15 AM

Doesn't answer my question.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 11:19 AM

Nope just trying to figure this out. Most likely, I won't live long enough to see my health care turn into Canada care but have no doubt if the public option is there it will Someone SEIU must see something it it for them

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 11:24 AM

Okay, but why is requiring health insurance more unconstitutional than requiring car insurance?

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 11:53 AM

Prsonally don'rt have a clue and perhaps it might be argued efectively that requiring auto insurance is also unconstitution. just am more than suere that private insurance cannot copete with the public option When private insurance disappearw we are left with Canada care http://blog.heritage.org/2009/08/20/is-national-health-insurance-constitutional/

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 11:55 AM

Oh, okay. I thought you had a clear idea of why a health insurance requirement would be unconstitutional.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 11:57 AM

The sources I cited are from folks far more intelligent than I am and guessing you as well

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 12:00 PM


smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 12:53 PM

Your sources may well be more intelligent than both of us, I was only asking what you thought yourself.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 1:04 PM

LOL I wasn't born with opinions so have to read a lot to form them as well as incorporate my life experiences

oldcougar
Oldcougar  (Level: 220.4 - Posts: 1935)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 1:22 PM

Here's a link to a petition by a world wide organization called Avaaz, which means voice, regarding "Canada care".

http://www.avaaz.org/en/reform_health_care/97.php?cl_tta_sign=864af17c9f06c85af196d6d86a707075

Interesting or maybe not???

oldcougar
Oldcougar  (Level: 220.4 - Posts: 1935)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 1:35 PM

Medicare

Tommy Douglas's number one concern was the creation of Medicare. In the summer of 1962, Saskatchewan became the centre of a hard-fought struggle between the provincial government, the North American medical establishment, and the province's physicians, who brought things to a halt with the 1962 Saskatchewan Doctors' Strike. The doctors believed their best interests were not being met and feared a significant loss of income as well as government interference in medical care decisions even though Douglas agreed that his government would pay the going rate for service that doctors charged. The medical establishment claimed that Douglas would import foreign doctors to make his plan work and used racist images to try to scare the public. Their defenders have also argued that private or government medical insurance plans covered 60 to 63 percent of the Saskatchewan population before Medicare legislation was introduced.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Douglas#Medicare

Same tactics, different country

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 1:37 PM

Thanks or the link, Randy. Personally would opt for keeping my "greedy" primary care doc who is green carding from Canada as they could/would not pay him enought to compensate for his education and support for his family of 4. Also somehow the 'greedy"BC/BS must have some benefit as next to impossible to find a doc that will give you an appointment with Medicare only. What are all those Canadians doing in Detroit hospitals if lines and wait time for procedures in Canada intimidating?? Simpe math unless we have more docs we will end up with Canada care-no thanks

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 2:03 PM

Should not have said that the reason my doc does not practice in Canada was monetary as he never said that to me. He did tell me that the reason he left Canada with his family was ecause of Canada's health care system. Had my routine 3 mo. appt about a week ago he said to me that he would hate to see what he left come here. My parents after they retired had Medicae only and the doc they had had for years kept them but would not take any new Medicare only patients.

oldcougar
Oldcougar  (Level: 220.4 - Posts: 1935)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 2:12 PM

Linda, I can't give an opinion on your doctor but I found a government of BC document for 2005, showing the top paid doctor (general practitioner) in Ladysmith (a city of about 20,000 & my home) earned $469, 000.00 from the BC government medical plan. This doesn't include any funds earned from patients being treated from auto related injuries covered by ICBC (Insurance Corporation of BC), work related injuries covered by our WCB (Workmen's Compensation Board), medical exams for drivers licences, etc. They've had a raise since then. Plus, an university education in Canada is partially subsidized by our government. Not saying doctors don't deserve a fair wage, but that doesn't seem like starvation wages to me.

oldcougar
Oldcougar  (Level: 220.4 - Posts: 1935)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 2:18 PM

Doctors here are all paid at the same rate for procedures (negotiated between the government & doctors), like office visits, so no doctor refuses to see anyone because they only have basic medical.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 2:46 PM

No, not starvation wages but does not explain why folks are coming to Detroit for treatment must not be enough of them to take care of all.

oldcougar
Oldcougar  (Level: 220.4 - Posts: 1935)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 3:25 PM

I won't argue that we need more doctors in Canada. They did finally open up 7 more spaces per year at the University of BC, not sure how many across Canada, to educate much needed new doctors. It won't be nearly enough to keep up with demand as the population increases & ages & the older doctors retire. One of the main reasons that we are not training enough new doctors is the National College of Physicians of Canada doesn't want the universities to do so.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 5:02 PM

After reading your post, Randy, about this group of doctors not wanting more doctors, was left with the question WHY? Is the Canadian G

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 5:16 PM

Don't knw why my post got cut short. Who controls this group of doctors that don't want more-the Canadian Government or are they some kind of union? Something isn't working right for a whole bunch of Canadians otherwise why are they in Detroit. Insuring all in MA and TN has been a bust. The true example that I can find is American Indian Reservations where the watchword is don't get sick after June as no money. Not trying to be confrontational but too many unanswered questions in what I see as a giant scam on the American peopke to asuage Obama's ego so he can say he changed the face of the country. Fox News Sunday is talking about Veteran's hospitals tomorrow-will be watching. I know I did not like what I saw of them in the moie "Born of the Fourth of July"-old movie I know but have not heard of huge sums going to improve veteran care. From what I hear that if they need outpatient-long waits as well as long lines

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 6:08 PM

Linda you are fortunate to have private insurance as well as Medicare. There are many people out there who don't have that option. Not being noisy but you must have some serious health care issues because that is ALL you talk about. You are so concerned about the passing of a health care bill. Afraid it might effect your private health insurance, are you that selfish as not to want others to have some sort of health care. The working poor in this country and those laid off desperately need health care. That is one reason I voted for Obama. Of course we have to find a way to pay for the programs, but it should be just like insurance for cars. Everyone has to pay for uninsured motorists, I think we all should have to pay for uninsured health insurance. Whether it be in the form of taxes or a certain amount taken from our paychecks to put in a national pool for health care. In other words any plan is better than no plan.

lodi
Lodi  (Level: 98.8 - Posts: 2144)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 6:24 PM

Uninsured motorists are usually ticketed and fined. Some repeat offenders even serve jail time and lose their license to drive. And we aren't required to pay for those uninsured motorists; it is an option that can be added to our auto insurance policy.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 6:37 PM

I was only using that as an example. Most states to require you to carry uninsured motorist insurance. My point is many people who already have adequate medical coverage don't want to help pay for those who don't. They are afraid that with a different health plan Medicare will reduce benefits for them or maybe there will be more out of pocket expenses for them. I don't know what the deal is but I know we need subsidized health care for those who can't afford it. The working poor, the people who have lost their job and can't afford Cobra and the elderly who can't afford co-pays. I think all employers have an obligation to provide health insurance based on how many employees they have. Most are just to cheap and don't want to provide coverage.

lodi
Lodi  (Level: 98.8 - Posts: 2144)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 6:39 PM

For some struggling Mom & Pop businesses, it would put them out of business. Cheap bastards that they are.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 6:43 PM

I believe I did say business that have over a certain amount of employees. As an example a corp. with many properties spread over many states that has NO health insurance for employees unless you are in management. I noted the sarcasm in cheap bastards as they are, I was not implying Mom and Pop businesses as you probably know. I am talking about profitable corporations who can well afford benefits for employees and are too cheap to provide them.

lodi
Lodi  (Level: 98.8 - Posts: 2144)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 6:45 PM

Thanks. I hate when my sarcasm is wasted.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 7:12 PM

Yes, by all means add "selfish' to my list of labels. because the plans out there SUCK and want no part of them,

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 7:16 PM

Funny thing with the over 200 options lawmakers can choose from BC/BS is the one most picked-must be a reason IMO

bbear
Bbear  (Level: 161.7 - Posts: 2301)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 7:17 PM

Linda - you have teacher's retirement insurance? Or do you have Medicare? Both are certainly government run and government paid management care and both work well.



bbear
Bbear  (Level: 161.7 - Posts: 2301)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 7:22 PM

Colliure:
RE: Or do you just not understand that the government can't effect any of the economies you'd like to see while at the same time slowing down the advance of medicine in this country?

This is not an attack on the pharmaceutical companies or the medical manfacturers like Smith Nephew or schools/universities of medicine such as Tulane. They are the driving forces behind medical advancements, NOT insurance companies. The insurance companies are out to minimize care and maximize profits. Fortunately, the more a patient is given a certain medication or a certainly medical equipment the more money the company makes. Therefore it is in their best interest to make sure the patient gets the care/equipment/medication they need, not to make sure they get the least amount to continue sustainability.

Huge difference.



caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 7:32 PM

Sorry, Bobo, believe you are the one who constantly harps on the fact that you have NO insurance. Options proposed like vouchers tol those who caanot afford to buy or believe Allenas back somewhere talked among other things about making Medicaid more expansive. As for college records yes, believe we know how Bush did but Obama refusises to disclose his. Personally like where he was born doesn't matter a whit to me but his government takeover of everything does. Seems like now there are plans to meet with Sir Kennedy to add to his push that it is a moral imperative. PLEEZE if Sir Kennedy hade not gotten the best treatments that money could buy would have been dead long ago. Nice that he now wants to change MA. law so he can be quickly repaced when his spot is vacant. The media (most) fails tio mention that he is the one in 04 that got that quick thing removed when he thought Kerry might becoome President and Romney, a Republican, would get the quick pick The devious politics leaves me BREATHLESS

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 7:53 PM

Prattle on about devious democrats and their dirty politics and Bush didn't disclose his college grades, the media did. I along with other Americans took note, also his alcohol abuse, fundamentalism, and his record in the National Guard or lack there of.
I hate politicians also I am not speaking so much from a political point but in a secular plea for health care reform. You have government backed insurance and many like you do as well. I just don't think other people should be denied health, and well being simply based on lack of insurance. We are far to affluent a country to be so lacking in our overall view of taking care of our citizens. No other western country has so limited a view on providing basic social services to its population. We don't think twice about providing schooling, and police and fire protection I think it is long overdue to provide health care for people who can't afford insurance. Please don't talk to me about ranting on these forums you are the single most frequent poster on the SD. So you are one to talk, give it a rest.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 7:59 PM

Beth, when you dial in government waste and post office style workers, I think you'll find yourself even worse off.

I think you foolishly minimize the contributions of private industry to the advance of medicine. They're the ones who discover new drugs and put more and more advanced equipment into circulation, among other things.

But maybe you'd like a clunker of health care system.

(BTW Strange, but the government won't let insurance companies compete across state lines.)

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 8:10 PM

BC/BS is private insurance whether I am retired or when I taught. DPS paid part of it while I worked but payments still come out of my retirement check. For some time I have qualified for Medicare and for several years carried separate cards for Medicare and BC/BS-Medicare was considered my primary provider after I retired but the BC/BS card got me into the doc's office. Believe it was a couple of years ago that DPS notified me tthat tey had opted to put me in Medicare/Adantage-works fine. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that if DPS had the option of paying a payroll tax and dropping their share in cost of BC/bS that would be their choice-would be a foolish move on their part if they did not. When I started teaching salaries were not all that good but the health care package was-certainly something I considered

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 8:22 PM

Bobo, find it a bit odd that you hold Bush's alcohol abuse against him Admitting to using various drugs including cocaine as Obama did, nor his college grades, nor where he was born have nothing to do with the fact that he has NO plan to sell and the plans out there SUCK Surprised that you did not tell me not to "embarrass" myself by answering because I had insurance as you usually qualify your posts thus

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 8:44 PM

Linda I will never say don't embarrass yourself by responding because you have health care. I am just saying you seem hell bent on any kind of health care subsidy from government for uninsured, it seems somewhat selfish. I know you worked hard for your retirement and I don't question that you earned it. You are not the only one who has worked hard all their life and thru no fault of their own have NO insurance. I am sorry but I don't give Bush any credit for admitting to a problem, actually I don't give him credit for ANYTHING. With the exception of invading Iraq, and making an ass out of himself for 8 years.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 8:53 PM

You most certainly have told people not to respond. Medicaid is a government subsidy and am all for making it more inclusive also voichers perhaps much like food stamps another government subsudy as is welfare etc.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 10:37 PM

Medicaid is a government subsidy and am all for making it more inclusive also voichers perhaps much like food stamps another government subsudy as is welfare etc.
************************************************************************

So what's the beef?

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 10:55 PM

Linda
Socialized medicine does not have people standing in line. I use Medicare. I’ve never stood in line or seen any lines other than the protesters of the healthcare reform at Town Hall meetings (who, btw are using Medicare, some not even knowing that its government run) Perhaps it’s regional.

godwit
Godwit  (Level: 78.9 - Posts: 435)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 11:13 PM

1. MD's, like so many other professionals, move to the US because they cannot become multi-millionaires up there, but here they can and do.
2. The US is also struggling with an MD and nurse shortage.
3. The Medicare system is "broke" in much part because State laws allow massive suits, so hospitals and MD's starting prescribing big-cost tests in order to cover themselves in case they missed anything in their ten minutes they spend with patients. Ten minutes because they have so much paperwork to do, and overload with patients, they don't have more time.
So...who can diagnose someone in ten minutes? Better to order all kinds of expensive tests to make sure you don't get sued.
That drove up the insurance costs.
4. Medicare is said to be THE most efficiently run system out there. Almost NO fat, no excess costs, to-the-bone
5. Everyone screams fraud, but again, there is very little fraud in the Medicare system. They DO monitor like crazy, and for instance George Bush spent over 10 million dollars as governor of Texas, looking for fraud. He installed a massive computer system to go through every single file. After two years, they found ONE percent fraud. It's a tight system. The one time I know of they did find fraud, it was the Agencies Medicare hired to process the paperwork. They were cheating the gov't and the medicare recipients.
6. CN has quite a good medical system. Fact is, every summer US citizens flood into CN to fish and hunt and hang out in their cottages and golf. They use the CN medical system, and clog it up. Without paying any taxes or paying into the system, at all.
7. Right now, the Medicare system is not yet paying for baby boomers. There's a group called the invisible or the something group...a SMALL number of elderly, right now, so actually Medicare is MAKING money. Those people paid in more to Medicare than they are taking out.
8. We're broke because of the war. I don't know why people keep following the red herrings and believing its something else.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 3:59 AM

I'll just comment on #8 because it is dead wrong!

We're broke because of the financial collapse. The origins of this financial collapse are a law signed by Bill Clinton that allowed bankers to write mortgages to those who could not afford them, pressure from liberal Congressmen to offer those mortgages, and a failure by Alan Greenspan as head of the Federal Reserve system to put the dampers on said real estate bubble as it was developing.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 6:05 AM

We are broke because we tapped into our GDP to pay for an ill-begotten war.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 6:34 AM

Your Kool-aid only sells to the uninformed, Beverly.

Try the truth more often.

Thanks.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 8:20 AM

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/23/health/policy/23daschle.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=tom%20daschle%20and%20obama&st=cse whether Dascle officially calls himself a lobbist, there is no doubt that he is. Where is the outrage that was directed at the Bush Administration?

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 12:07 PM

Guess the Veterans care has the way to keep costs down-a booklet put out by Clinton-pulled back by Bush and now back out there by Obama-nothing like making a veteran feel like a burden to his country and family WTG BREATHLESS http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/23/sen-specter-calls-hearings-end-life-care-guide-veterans/

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 2:28 PM

HA HA http://video.foxbusiness.com/8319287/health-care-villains/?category_id=afb6c0c377f8cb9a41683e0cdd75eec18d62f119 knew they were behind it - wonder how they feel now about the cozy meeting in the Rose Garden when he was trying to get all patiues lined up for his pitch

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 4:39 PM


collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 4:47 PM

Yup, Joe is an independent former Democrat (and former college classmate of mine) who recognizes that we cannot afford a huge health care plan today.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 4:52 PM

Joe is an incandescent Republican who wouldn't even support President Obama during the campaign and a turn coat just like Allen Specter.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 4:55 PM

LOL but Arlen is a good "turncoat" , Right??

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 5:04 PM

If Specter votes Public Option, definitely yes.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 6:33 PM

Who else was a classmate of your? Benjamin Franklin you never cease to make me laugh. LOL you are so pompous Andy.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 7:14 PM

Excellent personal attack, Bobo.

Possibly you have something germane to offer to the discussion.

bbear
Bbear  (Level: 161.7 - Posts: 2301)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 11:51 PM

Godwit - excellent response. I guess the elephant in the room in the bloody war. If it didn't exist and we were not paying for it we would have unlimited funds.

Just wait. 10 year from now (and worse yet, 20 years) we have have a crazy amount of our population on managed federal care (ie Medicare). I guess we may as well instill it now.

godwit
Godwit  (Level: 78.9 - Posts: 435)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 12:54 AM

Clinton caused this problem? During his economic prosperity, high employment, good international relations, and an excellent government surplus? Yea, he sure messed things up.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 2:58 AM

Clinton's team managed the economy well for 7 years, but fell down on the job in his final year when Greenspan also erred.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 5:07 AM

The way Barrack is spending, some predicting the US will be a "Banana Republic" in 10 years. Wonder how health care works there!

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 5:19 AM

And, also some predict if the President doesn't US will be a "Banana Republic" in 10 years. Probably, since Us is #37 in the world on healthcare; maybe they fare better in contrast and comparison.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 5:23 AM

That's not a reliable stat, Beverly.

Based 50% on infant mortality.

And which org has the most influence on infant mortality? MEDICAID

In any case that stat is discontinued, probably because it doesn't measure things like cancer cure rates where the US leads the world.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 5:50 AM

Would you care to provide your defense of what you have claimed to be , in essence, a failed system. If you continue to say NO to an overhaul without a public option will force the 2 or so major companies to compete; thus enabling health care and a more robust economy instead of monopoly. The mortality rates for everyone will decline; if no Public Option. That is just common sense. No stats are needed there.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 6:22 AM

Beverly, I asked you the other day why Obama does not pass a law allowing insurance companies to compete across state lines. You haven't answered.

You keep tossing up all these goals as if they can't be achieved any other way than by a federal takeover.

Hey, we're smarter than that even if you aren't.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 6:42 AM

Odd, but simply cannot find a case of anyone traveling from the US to Canada or the UK to get a procedure or test done that they could not get here !!

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 7:39 AM

Must be related to that Florida voter improperly denied his right to vote in 2000.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 10:55 AM

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/23/sen-specter-calls-hearings-end-life-care-guide-veterans/ actually felt a bit sorry for Tammy Duckworth on Fox news Sunday. When questioned by Chris Wallace it was clear she was either misinformed or outright lying-suspect the former. I look for her to be thrown "under the bus" by the Obama folks when they get around to removing this from the website. Obama saying no one is encouraging folks to die but if this is something that has been done to Veterans-begs the question . Tommey, I believe his name, said that some kind of beuracratic body got the booklet put into use under GW Bush. W hen Bush became aware of what was in it, had it taken down. The Obama folks put it back up-does not bode well if he is trying to counter "myths". You can see the video on Fox News Sunday 8/23/09

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 11:27 AM

Andy: "That's not a reliable stat, Beverly. Based 50% on infant mortality. And which org has the most influence on infant mortality? MEDICAID"

I've never heard that argument before, can you add some substance to that argument so i can understand it better? I thought the infant mortality statistics might be flawed for another reason than the one you gave "possibly".

"While the United States reports every case of infant mortality, it has been suggested that some other developed countries do not. A 2006 article in U.S. News & World Report claims that "First, it's shaky ground to compare U.S. infant mortality with reports from other countries. The United States counts all births as live if they show any sign of life, regardless of prematurity or size. This includes what many other countries report as stillbirths. In Austria and Germany, fetal weight must be at least 500 grams (1 pound) to count as a live birth; in other parts of Europe, such as Switzerland, the fetus must be at least 30 centimeters (12 inches) long. In Belgium and France, births at less than 26 weeks of pregnancy are registered as lifeless.[5] And some countries don't reliably register babies who die within the first 24 hours of birth. Thus, the United States is sure to report higher infant mortality rates. For this very reason, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which collects the European numbers, warns of head-to-head comparisons by country."[6] However, all of the countries named adopted the WHO definition in the late 1980s or early 1990s.[7]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_mortality#United_States

As most people know, I "lean" towards some kind of universal health care. It seems to me that many in this debate generally just want information that will help them argue in favor of conclusions they've already come to regardless of any new facts they might learn, so I hope that helped out the opposite side in this debate.


allena
Allena  (Level: 255.8 - Posts: 1391)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 12:36 PM

I do see drivel here as well as some very significant points. The only way we can debate is to think, write and read. That is a good thing.

Most want health care paid by someone besides themselves. The reason is the unpredictability. Clearly, no profit making company will insure someone who pays a little and cost a lot. The tax payers don't want to either. Who knew?

If someone else pays, the consumer has no reason to avoid going with every ache or pain. Hence, free care costs too much. Give away candy and lots more will need to diet.

The solutions include: Savings accounts where the person that does not abuse the system is rewarded and insurance to cover traumatic occurrences (like more than $5,000 per year) and long term diseases. I have been thinking since I heard from Goddess about her 4 year old son with brain tumors. This is traumatic, needs to be covered and is certainly not an abuse of the system.

I believe we should send home folks without a green card or citizenship who do not pay taxes but show up at the free emergency wards where the hospitals treat them with funds from the paying customers.

I believe we should cap lawyer's awards, expecially penal awards (as they do in Canada) and reduce malpractice insurance. This costs more than doctors, believe it or not.

I think the staff that processes paper in doctor's offices is absurd in size but necessary because the re-inbursment policies are so complex. Clearly, Medicare is part of the problem in this area.

The most significant point is that Congress should write small, easily studied bills without bribes (ear marks) and take responsibility for their votes. Then they should accept the care they foist upon the populace.

Now ... I don't have to write anymore about this.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 1:06 PM

Allena (Jim, is it?): "Most want health care paid by someone besides themselves. The reason is the unpredictability."

I think that statement is a little off. It might be true to an extent, as in I want private insurance so somebody elses premiums provide predicability for me, as in the system we already have. If you are trying to say that a desire for universal health care is primarily motivated by a desire for predictability, I think you would be wrong. The primary reason I get from those I talk to, people who already have decent insurance is ethical concern. I for one don't think health care "should" be an area of life where people try and make alot of profit. That's a philosophical objection rather than an opinion related to money.

Some of your solutions are good ones to be sure, but I don't think they go far enough. I don't think your solutions provide any solution to the fact that preventive care costs less than emergency care, so we as a country have no way of utilizing those savings. And no solution is provided as to what to do in a country where working a minimum wage job would leave no money left over for a "savings account". Go without coverage I guess, same old news?




caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 1:50 PM

Sorry, Jeremy, but you lose me on logic on that one. Why on earth would anyone choose to be a doctor with the many years of study if they could not profit? Theyt sacrifice much to get to be docs and many volunteer their tie at free clinics like the one in the Catholic Church complex across the street from me. Not enough Ghandis and Mother Theresastio go around. Our economy is founded on the right to profit. Just who has the right to profit and who doesn't? It sure seems like many are of the "greater good' mentality if they are in the "GREATER"

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 1:51 PM

The statistic (infant mortality) isn't flawed, Jeremy.

A government program, Medicaid, has the most influence on it, and we are discussing giving more health care responsibility to the government.

The measurement, now discontinued, that ranks the US 37th in the world in health care does not really measure the effectiveness of a country's health care system at all. Longevity + infant mortality? It's laughable, the reason it has been discontinued.

Ought to be looking at cure rates, wait times for doctor visits and surgery, access to health care . . .

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 3:03 PM

My comment was as germaine to thread as your posting that Lieberman was a classmate of yours. Is that supposed to impress all of us. That doesn't impress me anymore than your stance on any issue. You are so stuck in the middle with your views which I think are a moot point since you are an expatriate who chooses to abandon living in your country. A country you claim to love. If you care so much about the issues why do you choose to debate them liviing in France. It just amazes me that you critique Obama while staying in the safety of Southern France.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 3:20 PM

Another non-germane post, Bobo.

Absolutely nothing about the issue, just personal attacks.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 3:27 PM

It is not a personal attack to post that you should keep to the issues instead of commenting on how this or that person was a classmate of yours. That doesn't legitimize anything Lieberman says just because he was your classmate. He was a contender
on the democratic ticket in past.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 3:29 PM

Linda: Why would anybody become a doctor in Canada? They still do right???............Besides, you can't argue an "ought" with an "is". I think you should try another approach on this one.....

Andy: I'll get back to your post in a minute.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 3:51 PM

Your post was filled with personal attacks, Bobo. It's exactly what should be absent from these blogs.

And you're still going ballistic about a parenthetical remark.

Maybe you just ought to zip it.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 3:53 PM

Canada is rife with doctors? As Randy pointed out they do not work for free nor should they.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 3:53 PM

Linda: should've read can't argue this "ought" (my "should" opinion) very successfully with an "is". I would know, it's my opinion.

Andy: "The statistic (infant mortality) isn't flawed, Jeremy." I may have mis-read Wikipedia, but in my rush I thought that's what it said. If not a better reading of the Wikipedia article, which I don't hold that high anyway well read or not at this point, how do you know? Any references to debate that selection?

I know what we are discussing, but in what way does Medicaid have the "most" influence on it?

"The measurement, now discontinued, that ranks the US 37th in the world in health care does not really measure the effectiveness of a country's health care system at all. Longevity + infant mortality? It's laughable, the reason it has been discontinued." You actually gave me something I could check on, thanx, I'll look into that.




smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 3:57 PM

BTW Linda, I said shouldn't make "alot" of profit, I said nothing about "no" profit. Alot is a subjective term, in terms of todays healthcare workers, I actually do not consider $100000 plus to be "alot" for example. I guess it depends on what job we are talking about. If it weren't for the "less ethical" country of America, Canada would have more doctors, because they would have nowhere to go.......

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 4:01 PM

Medicaid, Jeremy, is the government health care program for those with meager resources. If our infant mortality rate is higher than ideal, that's the program that deals with the expectant mothers most in need of health care, and it's then an indication of poor performance

oldcougar
Oldcougar  (Level: 220.4 - Posts: 1935)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 4:28 PM

Interesting, one of the arguments in Canada for not training more doctors in our government subsidized universities has been that we're paying & they are immediately jumping ship & heading for the US on completion of their education. Not that we haven't been guilty of pinching other nation's doctors, in the 70's we stole a lot of British trained MD's, my GP is one of them. We also gained quite a few white South African doctors at the end of apartheid which came for their own reasons. It has been proposed that we should further reduce the costs of a doctor's education if they agree to work in Canada, especially in remote areas for a set amount of time. We'll see how it all plays out if the US goes to universal healthcare. Both countries will be needing more doctors with our ageing populations, whether or not Obama & the Democrats are successful.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 5:56 PM

Ay, there's the rub, matey.

Doctors want to be well paid and well they should be. Very demanding education and apprenticeship and a pressure-packed life for all except a few specialist lines (e.g., dermatology).

Government sends them patients at discount prices which means the full price clients must pay more.

Too many discount patients and the doctors turn them down or relocate to another country.

What the American system lacks is access for the less fortunate. Not an easy problem to solve.



bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 6:32 PM

Ought to be looking at cure rates, wait times for doctor visits and surgery, access to health care . .

***********************************************************************

You ought to be looking for the truth. I repeat-- you find numbers in all the wrong places, Andy

oldcougar
Oldcougar  (Level: 220.4 - Posts: 1935)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 6:35 PM

Andy, you might want to note the wages earned by a local doctor in 2005, as per a government document, in one of my previous posts. $469,000.00 plus other sources of revenue, are not exactly chump change. I do agree that doctors should be well compensated but according to that document doctors are not earning peon wages in Canada.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 6:46 PM

That's one doctor, Randy. Apparently others are leaving.

You might want to consider the value of their work in saving lives, keeping people healthy . . .

Complain to me about lawyers' salaries. I might listen to that, but doctors do a whole world of good 24/7.

oldcougar
Oldcougar  (Level: 220.4 - Posts: 1935)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 10:19 PM

Andy, it was a document of all wages paid to doctors in the province of BC, I selected that example because he was from a very small city (my home) & not a specialist but a GP. He was hardly the highest paid on the list. As I've stated before I've seen news reports & read an article in a respected magazine, McLeans, that Canadian doctors are returning North. I'm sure not all, but then I imagine some people would rather live in Florida, for example, than in Toronto in the Winter.

oldcougar
Oldcougar  (Level: 220.4 - Posts: 1935)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 10:50 PM

Andy how dare you insinuate that I was complaining about doctors wages. I didn't say that. I was merely pointing out with facts, that unlike your comments used to fuel your argument that nationalized healthcare is bad, that doctors here do make a good wage.

And why is it lawyers aren't allowed to do the same, I believe it takes at least 6 years of university to become one, here in Canada? While I certainly agree, some are shysters, most here are not. Shysters abound in all fields.



bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 11:20 PM

Andy you sure manage to anger just about everyone here at sploofus and I won't zip anything. Your fly has been down for quite some time. Now there is a personal attack. But don't take it personally. Someone was merely pointing out that doctors in Canada earn a good living and CN has socialized health care. It is a system we should emulate.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Tue, 25th Aug '09 4:01 AM

Randy, if you cite one as an example, are we not to assume that he is the highest paid? Moreover, he may have a clinic or such from which he derives some of that income.

Secondly you were saying that doctors earn more than enough. I am not signing onto that. And I am arguing that doctors are far more valuable to our societies than lawyers.



smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Tue, 25th Aug '09 5:06 AM

"I am arguing that doctors are far more valuable to our societies than lawyers"

I would argue (and I imagine this is personal), that if you made one adjustment to the way things are, laws=ethics instead of laws sometimes equalling ethics but just as often times not really equalling much of anything, that in that situation I would consider lawyers and doctors equally important. Doctors would be making healthy long live possible, and lawyers would be helping to make that long life satisfying and worthwhile. I couldn't see having one without the other.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Tue, 25th Aug '09 5:10 AM

Your point is well-taken, Jeremy.

However, I will contend that we need more doctors and fewer lawyers.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Tue, 25th Aug '09 6:06 AM

Jeremy, I have to disagree with your doctors/lawyers premise.

There are many who never see a lawyer in their entire life (everyone should get a will, though, but you can actually do that without a lawyer).

All the way from our birth (and usually from a month after conception) to death, we see many, many different and different kinds of doctors.

oldcougar
Oldcougar  (Level: 220.4 - Posts: 1935)
Tue, 25th Aug '09 7:39 AM

Andy, you need to actually read a person's posts before you start criticizing them. I clearly stated that was what the amount the top paid MD in my hometown was paid & also that it was only what he earned from government healthcare moneys. I also said in my first post, doctors here would also receive funds from treating patients who have been in car accidents, industrial accidents, doing medicals for drivers licences, doctor owned testing facilities, etc. I have no way of knowing what his actual yearly income is but it would be over half a million. Though I don't begrudge them earning those wages, I think it refutes that doctors in Canada can't earn a descent living because of government medicare, as has been stated in some of the preceding posts. I'm pretty sure there are few people on this site that earn that much, if you all do, please let me know, I need to find the trivia site for the middle class

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Tue, 25th Aug '09 7:42 AM

I didn't criticize your post.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Tue, 25th Aug '09 12:05 PM

Janice, that's because laws aren't ethics and lawyers are overpriced. I would've used a grip more lawyers if this country had the laws set up as ethics and had some intention of providing some semblence of Justice for all. Still, I find your premise faulty. Using something less doesn't prove your point that it's less important. I rarely use CPR, but this last time I did it was critical.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Tue, 25th Aug '09 11:27 PM

Donna wrote way above in this thread: "Perhaps someone can explain for me why it is any more unconstitutional to require people to carry health insurance than it is to require automobile insurance, or drivers' licenses, for that matter."


The difference in requiring people to carry health insurance and requiring people to have automobile insurance is this:

Nobody HAS to pay automobile insurance, because everyone has the right to NOT own a car and thereby has the right NOT to drive.

Owning a car and driving is completely choice in this country. You can choose to live somewhere there is a bus or train or where you may ride a bike or walk. You have that choice.

And most important:

A U.S. citizen who does not own a car and who does not drive IS NOT FORCED TO HELP PAY FOR THE CAR AND LICENSE of those who DO own a car and drive.

The federal government does not have the right to force you to own a car or to force you to drive.

This administration would be forcing people to have health insurance just because they are breathing - with no choice whether to have it or not and no choice what to pay for it.

The federal government does not have the right to make people buy anything. Not anything.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Tue, 25th Aug '09 11:55 PM

"A U.S. citizen who does not own a car and who does not drive IS NOT FORCED TO HELP PAY FOR THE CAR AND LICENSE of those who DO own a car and drive."

Not sure what difference it all makes. I am forced to pay for public swimming pools, roads, public transportation, public parks, etc. etc, that I never use. What's the diff?


jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Wed, 26th Aug '09 12:06 AM

You have the option of using all that public transportation and public facilities.

You do not have the right to drive someone else's car.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Wed, 26th Aug '09 1:41 AM

"You have the option of using all that public transportation and public facilities.

You do not have the right to drive someone else's car."

I do not understand the difference. We are still talking about health care right? Not cars? I mean I can use public health care (so can they) and a public park (so can they), and so can anyone else.......howzit different??? Please spell it out for me like I'm a toddler on this one. Thanks.



caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Wed, 26th Aug '09 5:39 AM

Jeremy, hered is the most reputable source I could find that requiring people to buy health insurce is not Constional-stretch of the Commerce law at best.The current Congress has the habit, however, of doing as they please-Costitutional or not http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/21/AR2009082103033.html

m48ortal
M48ortal  (Level: 251.4 - Posts: 3742)
Wed, 26th Aug '09 4:32 PM

Wish I could post this right next to the original post. Seems to reflect the discussion within the thread to some degree.

http://www.chron.com/apps/comics/showComic.mpl?date=2009/8/26&name=La_Cucaracha

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Wed, 26th Aug '09 4:43 PM

I think the Seniors that are carrying the sign whih make them lok silly if not stupid are neither. They know that Obamacare will fund the rest of the Crap by cuts to Medicare and that is what they mean by telling him hands off

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Wed, 26th Aug '09 4:52 PM

Medicare and Medicaid are brole or close to it so in one breath he cannot say Medicare is government controlled and works just fine and the very next day say he hopes people know that within 8 years Medicare will be out of money-can't have it both ways.

bbear
Bbear  (Level: 161.7 - Posts: 2301)
Wed, 26th Aug '09 7:26 PM

I saw a patient today who is on Medicare and just got a new knee. He was talking about how he hopes this doesn't pass. I said "I believe from birth to death every citizen of the US should be entitled to Medicare". He looked at me funny. I said "Medicare is government run socialized medicine and a system that WORKS and shouldnt just be for the elderly. It is basically a Medicare system that is being voted on".

Food for thought.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Wed, 26th Aug '09 7:36 PM

It's food for thought when we have the money.

Today we don't.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Wed, 26th Aug '09 7:43 PM

Old folks are just stupid, I guess, Beth, but smart enough to know that one day he says Medicare works just fine and the very next day he says Medicare needs to be dratically "trimmed'. Those same old people may also be "selfish" but know "trimmeed' at their expense. His original goal was to insure the uninsured and that can be done by some things like Allenna has suggested. He cannot or will not articulate HIS plan just a vague lofty goal. That sounds good until like Allena said when gets down to who pays for it People young or old also know that the public option is a means to the end that you suggested Medicare from cradle to grave-the majority of Americans reject that as dismayed as that makes proponents.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Thu, 27th Aug '09 3:37 AM

BTW, Beth, the object of the Obama plan is not covering the uninsured. It's taking over health care.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Thu, 27th Aug '09 3:48 AM

For those of you who wanted some info on the French system (and bogus infant mortality rate comparisons, Steve)

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=336178343967257

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Thu, 27th Aug '09 8:38 AM


bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Fri, 28th Aug '09 9:01 AM

Why is it always Fox? I guess they do it for you.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Fri, 28th Aug '09 9:39 AM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/27/AR2009082703262.html Charles more often than not gets things correct. I will more than likely be dead before the best health care system in the world disappears but looks like it will if the Democrats can stifle people likdee Pelosi

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Fri, 28th Aug '09 10:02 AM

Oh no, Linda not another Fox (Faux) news contributor.

Besides, it 's also mendacious. It's Kennedycare now (no insult or disrespect intended).Republicans have lauded the idea of naming the bill when the President signs it with the the Public Option Kennedycare.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Fri, 28th Aug '09 10:09 AM

Charles is respected by all even though not always agreed with. Call,l it Kennedycare all you want it Sucks. Had to give credit to Howard Dean -formder DNC chairman-when he was asked why tort reform was not on the table he said it would not be wise to anger this larfe group of contributors to Democrats.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Fri, 28th Aug '09 10:20 AM

Bbear your thoughts on how medicare could be expanded to give everyone health care has been sabotaged. By people who are so fearful of what it will cost them. Well it is going to cost money but in the end it will save millions of dollars and lives. You can't put a price tag on human life and health. At least in my way of thinking. Source I am citing is not Fox but nevertheless just as meaningful. Another words who cares about what a Fox news commentator says.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Fri, 28th Aug '09 10:38 AM

Not biting as when no facts are stated any reply will be viewed as a personl attack and this thread can/will be deleted as well . Total hypocrisy but guess no one expects politicians to have character http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/28/push-kennedy-successor-stirs-political-storm/

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Fri, 28th Aug '09 10:52 AM

There is nothing wrong with posting comments on a topic without a source of facts it is only when people start to get angry and insult each other that the thread is deleted. Any blog from a biased political commentator can be used to support ones position. That doesn't make the opinion any more valid.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Fri, 28th Aug '09 10:58 AM

I read the blog on Kennedy appointment believe that should be left up to the good people of Mass. and the Governor. Not the republicans.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Fri, 28th Aug '09 11:16 AM

Funny that Kennedy did not feel that way in 04 when Romney a Republican would be making he pick and was key in getting the law changed-hypocrital to the max- Here is some more facts -conservative source- I know on what the plans out there will mean. Fox is n more a blog than MSNBC , the NY Times, or the Washington Post, Newsweek, Time etc. contributors like Michelle Malkin as do contributors to the others named do have blogs as is theSwampland whatever. The "talking heads' as Fudy calls them-love that make no secret that they have opinions.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Fri, 28th Aug '09 1:23 PM

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2009/08/27/follow-doctors-advice/ so much for the promise if you like your doctor you can keep him-

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Fri, 28th Aug '09 9:42 PM

That's because Romney is/ was not as important as healthcare for everyone; especially those under-insured , not insured or paying astronomical heathcare cost. Strange but it is true.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sat, 29th Aug '09 2:17 PM


bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sat, 29th Aug '09 8:36 PM

Did you sign the petition to Help Honor Ted Kennedy which will be delivered to senators on Monday. Over 25,000 people have signed


caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sat, 29th Aug '09 9:08 PM

No, I didn't.

oldcougar
Oldcougar  (Level: 220.4 - Posts: 1935)
Sat, 29th Aug '09 9:25 PM

In Canada everyone has a basic medical policy & you or your employer may purchase additional coverage. Private insurance will only cover what the public medical does not. Therefor they wouldn't pay your specialist anything if he choses to opt out of the government plan. Very few doctors are opted out. Doctors in Saskatchewan made the same threats when it was first implemented there, even went on strike, but the people refused to go those who wouldn't take government medical. Didn't take long for them to get on the government medical bandwagon.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sun, 30th Aug '09 4:39 AM

http://blogs.dailymail.com/donsurber/2009/08/20/without-detroit-canadians-have-no-health-care/ I suppose they could be very patriotic and stay in Canada and die.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sun, 30th Aug '09 4:42 AM


oldcougar
Oldcougar  (Level: 220.4 - Posts: 1935)
Sun, 30th Aug '09 5:46 AM

Sorry Linda, couldn't get one link to open for me. I appreciate your other example, though I did say before that citizens sometimes are treated in the US when it is not available here & that the portion of payment they would have paid in Canada is paid. Canadians are not exactly dropping like flies however, follow this link & you will see that Canadians, the French, the British & especially the Swedish, all from countries with government healthcare, all have better longevity rates than the US.

http://longevity.about.com/od/researchandmedicine/p/lifeexpectancy.htm

My previous post was just to show how your concerns about getting a doctor have been addressed in Canada, I'm not sure what will be done in the US. Since I've read it is being based on the system in France, perhaps you should look into how it is dealt with there. Maybe someone from France could answer this question?
Linda, I'm really not trying to fight with you, I know you are generally concerned. I've just been posting information, the bulk of which in my thread on the subject was taken from the BC Medical website, to help people understand how it works in Canada. I know it is not perfect & as politicians continue to underfund it it is getting worse but some people here are constantly working to make it better. We had a multi-party government commission on healthcare done here a few years ago. It came up with excellent ideas for saving money in some areas which could then be funnelled into direct care of patients but the current Federal government has only partially implemented it. Time will tell.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 30th Aug '09 6:04 AM

Thanks Randy, when the US does something, it will be useful to review the experience of other nations.

Right now, however, Barack Obama has made a mess of the issue. We don't have the money, and he has neither the votes nor the approval of the populace for his over ambitious plan.

Remains to be seen if he can back up and get something affordable and worthwhile approved. IMO he has gone way, way too far down a dead end road. Dead end for us and dead end for him too.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sun, 30th Aug '09 7:30 AM

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/27/study-health-care-reform-mandate-punish-employers-kill-jobs/?loomia_ow=t00:a16:g12:r3:c0.135139:b27426716:z0 If anyone smart on the Democratic side, they will listen to Charles and get the end result they want at least on healt care but willl continue with job lossses


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