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clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 10:08 AM

US POWERLESS AS LIBYAN BOMBER FREED

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8213202.stm
......Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi released on compassionate grounds. This must please all the christians on this site, who obviously believe in forgiveness. The Scottish Parliament deserve some credit for showing the UK government that sucking up to US pressure is not obligatory. He'll be dead within a few months anyway, it's the right decision for his family's sake. It's also highly debatable that he was even guilty.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 10:16 AM

Believe most Americans regardless of faith or lack of it are outraged to see this guy exit the plane to a hero's welcome.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 10:20 AM

Seems not all in Scotland are happy with the release http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,541325,00.html

barnierubble
Barnierubble  (Level: 93.9 - Posts: 637)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 10:45 AM

There are very few in England happy either.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 10:54 AM

He walked onto the plane. Not exactly on his death bed. I'm opposed to the death penalty, but scum like this should stay in jail.

papajensai
Papajensai  (Level: 193.3 - Posts: 1025)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 11:11 AM

So, if you decide to kill a bunch of innocent bystanders for some faith-based reason, the place to do it is Bonnie Auld Scotland. What is that, about 2 weeks per person killed? A real bargain. Getting the prostate cancer was kind of a bummer, though, might interfere with his enjoyment of all those virgins awaiting him in never-never land.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 11:24 AM

Believe the actual number of days served for each victim was just slightly over 11 -what a message to send out to the world

surreyman
Surreyman  (Level: 260.9 - Posts: 2770)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 11:34 AM

Let's not be naive.
This was the perennial choice between idealism (here, meaning justice) or practicality (here meaning oil).
You takes your own choice, whether or not you think the Scots were right or wrong.


caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 11:49 AM

seems like this haas been the thinking for Internationakl affairs for quite some time. A hero's welcome for this scum no matter the rationalization SUCKS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Practical_idealism

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 12:21 PM

While I feel this was a huge mistake, I can only assume that Scotland did not want to foot the bill for this mans death. If he hangs on for a long time on pain meds, they have to pay for it. Sending him home ensures that his people get to pay the tab. I can't think of any other reason.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 12:27 PM

Think Surreyman hit the motive-OIL

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 12:30 PM

I dunno about that.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 12:54 PM

I'm with Sandy.

(only with more feeling)

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 1:08 PM

I wonder if he'll be able to let the world know where Bin Laden is?

barnierubble
Barnierubble  (Level: 93.9 - Posts: 637)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 1:37 PM

Bin Laden is buried in a cave somewhere, as he has been since 2002. Why do none of his speeches now appear on video, because he is not around to record them.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 1:58 PM

I think he's vacationing in Florida as he laughs at how he eluded GW Bush. But, seriously I read on a French newspaper link a couple of years ago died of Typhoid Fever.

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/French_newspaper_suggests_Osama_bin_Laden_may_be_dead

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/osama_dead.html

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 1:59 PM

I must have this thing about christians and forgiveness all wrong, sorry. Interesting nobody has picked up the fact this guy may well be innocent. How do you feel about the real culprits going free ? How is Scotland, as a nation, going to benefit from this ? Oil ? I don't think so. The British government were against this, mustn't upset the playground bully, how about the Scots standing up for themselves ? I've heard so many US ians claim that, laughably, the English control the Scots; surely they have the right to make their own minds up ? Do US ians support a Scottish parliament or not ?

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 2:31 PM

Personally, I still am angry that US were lied to by Bush with his scar tactics to gain him power and his cronies' Military Industrial Complex. All I know about Bin Laden is that he and Sadeem had no hook up. Bin Laden was frantically a fundamentalist Muslim. Sadeem was a mad butcher and dictator.Bin Laden did not consider Sadeem a real Muslim since he killed his own people.

Since Former Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge claims in a new book that he was pressured by other members of President George W. Bush's Cabinet to raise the nation's terror alert level just before the 2004 presidential election.

I'm angry that US lost our sons, daughter, cousins, fathers, mothers, and friends all because George Bush was a puppet to the war profiteers and he drained US and the world's.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 2:40 PM

Love how you get every thread off topic to bash someone like Bush, Beverly. Bush is gone. What about that puppet now in office that is causing our young people to die in Afghanistan.? Polls show that the American people believe it a lost cause-most likely is. That puppet very soon is going to have to fish or cut bait . Whatever Scotland's reasons for releasing this guy am apopaled that he was greatecd in Libya with a hero' s welcome. Guess that is what we get for the apology tours

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 2:51 PM

I don't see our President as a puppet. I see him as a victim and the person who inherited everything Bush deliberately failed in. That would include not going after Bin Linden. this tome is very appropiate.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 3:08 PM

Clinton missed at least 3 chances at Bin Laden. Someone pulling Obama's strings told him that it would be good strategy to say Iraq was the wrong war and Afghanistan was the "proper war". Now he is stuck with the consequences. The american people most in his own part want him to get out and the lawmakers saying he must bring it to the front burner http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/20/sliding-support-afghanistan-war-means-obama-polish-pitch-lawmakers-say/ Hopefully someone who has something to say about the original thread topic will get it back on track

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 3:17 PM

You got most of that correct, Beverly.

Problem is that the Bushies never said Saddam and Obl were hooked up.

Occasionally cooperation between the two but never a collaborative relationship.

But do keep playing the last game, because the present one is headed down the tubes.

papajensai
Papajensai  (Level: 193.3 - Posts: 1025)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 4:21 PM

CC: Does everyone have to declare their religious belief, or lack thereof, before you get off that hobby horse? You must have had a bitter experience or two with christians to have such an obsession with attributing all evil to them. I've never stated any religious belief around here. You have presumed before that I am a christian because I have disagreed with you. It has nothing to do with the topic of releasing the convicted murderer of over 200 people after 8 years in prison. And, if the man is innocent as you claim, why did they keep him for eight years? There's a bit of justice and compassion for you.

mplaw51
Mplaw51  (Level: 179.5 - Posts: 1582)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 4:50 PM

If this man were innocent, his country should have brought pressure to bear to find the real killers and not let an innocent victim rot in jail. I don't recall this happening. As far as dying in jail, I have no problem with that. Make him comfortable....behind bars. Let's just see how long it is before he actually dies, I make no apology when I say... it can't be too soon.


jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 7:32 PM

Wonder how Nike feels, him walking off the plane in a brand new white cap with the Nike logo? Wonder where that came from?

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 7:58 PM

Yeah, bet Nike "swooshed" their pants.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 8:02 PM

Man, I hope they did. I'd be shocked beyond shock if they had anything to do with him wearing it.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Fri, 21st Aug '09 8:10 PM

Well, it's hardly their fault. Just the worst possible advert imaginable.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 2:23 AM

Rjenson

CC: Does everyone have to declare their religious belief, or lack thereof, before you get off that hobby horse? You must have had a bitter experience or two with christians to have such an obsession with attributing all evil to them. I've never stated any religious belief around here. You have presumed before that I am a christian because I have disagreed with you. It has nothing to do with the topic of releasing the convicted murderer of over 200 people after 8 years in prison. And, if the man is innocent as you claim, why did they keep him for eight years? There's a bit of justice and compassion for you.

I mentioned the myth of christian forgiveness as it's been talked about a lot on radio talk shows regarding this matter. I'm sorry if that brings you out with a case of the vapours. I'm pleased for you that you are not a christian, i really am. Y'all have a nice day.

larefamiliaris
Larefamiliaris  (Level: 135.2 - Posts: 877)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 5:49 AM

Right then.

Everyone take a deep breath and here we go...

He's very probably innocent.

There are a great number of reasons why he's been released - the above not really being one of them. Here are a select few.
Firstly: oil, as Surrey and a few others have mentioned.

Secondly: if his appeal - which has been ongoing since his imprisonment - ever got to court it, would have shown up how weak the original case was. (His co-accused was aquitted: of all the Libyans in the world, the only two that went to trial were 50% innocent?! Strike anyone else as unlikely?)

Thirdly - and this is the biggie: David Milliband, the Foreign Secretary, has imposed a Public Interest Immunity Certificate an all official material pertaining to Lockerbie. Basically this means the papers can NEVER be published - neatly circumventing the current UK law that allows government papers to be published 50 years after the event.
Why?
Well here's a thought - possibly to prevent the discovery that the US and UK governments colluded to 'fit up' both al-Megrahi in particular and Libya in general?
Remember that for the first 3 or 4 years post-Lockerbie, Libya was never mentioned as a potential guilty party. Syria and Iran were, as were a group of Palestinians who had been paid $10 million by the Iranians 2 days after the aircraft went down. (You may remember an Iranian minister promising bloody retribution after the good old US of A blew an Iranian civilian passenger plane out of the sky, killing 290 innocent souls. No admission or apology was ever proffered.)
Then, quite suddenly, Iran was dropped from the menu and Libya offered as a new main course.
"A little more oil with your salad sir?"

Finally: here it's standard legal practice to release terminally ill prisoners so close to death (and he is that close, despite what skeptics would have you believe. He's been given 3 months at the very most).Very simple. However, in order to be released he had to drop his appeal. Nice and conveniently simple.

(It should also be remembered that al-Megrahi was never caught: he came forward willingly to try and clear his name, something which he's still trying to do with only a few weeks to live, safe in his own country.)

The travesty is not that he's free: it's that he went to prison in the first place, allowing the guilty to walk.


oldcougar
Oldcougar  (Level: 220.4 - Posts: 1935)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 7:49 AM

Thanks for the explanation Martin. I hadn't gotten around to looking it up & that information wasn't reported on this side of the pond. I knew Dave/CC must have had some sort of method to his madness

surreyman
Surreyman  (Level: 260.9 - Posts: 2770)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 8:35 AM

I sometimes wonder what info you do get in the US?
I'm interested, not being sarcastic.
All this was well known over here at the time.
And this seems to happen often - there seemed to be big gaps in many USians' pre-Iraq knowledge of the facts, too.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 11:10 AM

Like Iraq was the most secular country in the region. Like males and females had equal opportunities in universities that were the envy of the region. Yes, little known facts like that.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 11:25 AM

Some of us knew.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 4:27 PM

The rape rooms were not equal opportunity, Dave.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 4:46 PM

I don't know if it was oil or what but if Obama apologizes one more time to these guys after they gave this scum MO a heroes welcome and slapped Obama's face ( he had specifically requested they not do that) as well us we the people he supposedly represents, I will lose my mind. Perhaps he should have sent the request in his best wishes to the Muslim World for their holiday

mplaw51
Mplaw51  (Level: 179.5 - Posts: 1582)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 4:54 PM

It's a cause for dismay to me that some of this info ( by Martin and others) wasn't presented as openly as his purported guilt was in the U.S. Obviously, it's a very sensitive issue, but why then didn't this country make some attempt to find the answers in the name of our victims and others of this terrorist act? While that may be a very naive question, I just don't get it.

Our CIA can gain information about pretty much anything. Their methods are notorious (that may very well be another thread) and effective. Why did the USA drop the ball if the evidence was so thin? We had plenty of clout yet remained satisfied that al-Megrahi was guilty.

Was it no one's job to determine just who the perpetrators of this evil act were? It's a ball of confusion for me. So some of you are saying that al-Megrahi was just a wrong place, wrong time kind of guy?? I'm just shaking my head....


Andy, I so agree with your rape squad remark.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 4:58 PM

Innocent?

I don't know.

It wasn't his bag that was checked onto the plane with the bomb in the radio?

mplaw51
Mplaw51  (Level: 179.5 - Posts: 1582)
Sat, 22nd Aug '09 5:07 PM

I meant rape rooms, it took me so long to post I forgot what you wrote, Andy!



clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 7:30 AM

Of course nobody would condone rape of any kind. Has anybody had a look at all those vids that are available of beatings etc that happen in US prisons and police cells ?

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 8:26 AM

Because Lord knows that never happens anywhere but in the U.S., and of course it happens every day in every facility in the U.S.

There are many kinds of bigotry.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 11:11 AM

Jank0614
Because Lord knows that never happens anywhere but in the U.S., and of course it happens every day in every facility in the U.S.

There are many kinds of bigotry.

Exactly my point, you'd think from Andy's post that it only happened under Saddam in Iraq. You're right about bigotry too, you should see what it says in the bible about atheists.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 11:32 AM

I am one who is proud my country went into Iraq and liberated the Iraquis from the Hussein regime, rape rooms, shred machines, and the weapons of mass destruction that had already been used on 100,000 of his own people. He was a tyrant who let his country die of poverty while all the money went to buy his palaces and whatever he wanted. My problem is it should have been done by the first President Bush - there would have been no need for the second President Bush to send anyone there.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 11:53 AM

Oh, goody, the Philosophy of IF.

IF we hadn't spent 3 trillion dollars on a totally unnecessary war we wouldn't have to be bickering about how to pay for health care for the MILLIONS of CITIZENS who don't have any.

Or anything else we need:

http://www.nationalpriorities.org/costofwar_home

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 12:55 PM

Ya know, I bet there wasn't much of any healthcare in Iraq either. And there were weapons hidden in schools and hospitals - a complete lack of concern for any of the Iraqui citizens outside the palace.

We've already adequately described how there is not one person (even illegal aliens) in the U.S. who can't get help in any county hospital in the country. There is a place to go for help until we can get something worked out that doesn't turn us into a country nobody even recognizes - one that is acting as though it has no Constitution, even though vows were made to follow and uphold it.

It will be worked out.

And this administration has put a $9 trillion debt on our children and grandchildren in a mere 7 months that we may never be able to pay back.

Healthcare reform will change this country institutionally forever. It's more important to get it right if you're practically overthrowing the country to make the change.

Other countries are now refusing to lend us money. WE ARE OUT OF MONEY!

One of the last treasury sales was a disaster - they were sold but immediately bought back by our own fed, which just keeps churning out monopoly money.

There actually are factual, real monetary limits - and this administration surpassed them long ago. (It does seem like a long time - it's actually mere months.)

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 1:40 PM

THIS administration put us in debt??

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 1:47 PM

He keeps digging the hole deeper

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 1:52 PM

Yes - this administration has put us in more debt than all the other presidents before him COMBINED.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 2:01 PM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2009/03/21/GR2009032100104.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt (debt graph from 1910 through projected 2012 Obama administration and beyond to 2014)

http://www.usdebtclock.org/ Real time update by the second

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 3:07 PM

And you imagine that it all began in January? Shall all pretend that the Obama administration is not trying to save the nation from the economic collapse Bush left his wake?

Know what's freakin' hilarious? The people who brand the Obama presidency a failure just weeks after the inaugural, and the people who say we won't appreciate what a great president Bush was for another 50 years? Same people!

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 3:12 PM

Yes - all that on the graph that started January 20, 2009, did indeed start, by definition, in the Obama administration.

All the facts are there for everyone - even the libs who still follow him. The facts are inarguable.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 3:49 PM

And it was all for no reason whatsoever? Nothing came before the spending? Everything was great until Obama and his "lib" followers somehow magically got into office and started squandering everything Bush spent eight prosperous years building up?

Wasn't that the same clock Clinton stopped? It didn't just restart again in January.



collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 4:01 PM

This administration may try to put us in much bigger debt, but the debt has been building rather swiftly since the 80s.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 4:09 PM

Looks like even the Washington Post admits to the nearly $300B surplus in 2000.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 4:28 PM

Jank
I am one who is proud my country went into Iraq and liberated the Iraquis from the Hussein regime, rape rooms, shred machines, and the weapons of mass destruction that had already been used on 100,000 of his own people. He was a tyrant who let his country die of poverty while all the money went to buy his palaces and whatever he wanted. My problem is it should have been done by the first President Bush - there would have been no need for the second President Bush to send anyone there.
*****************************************************************
Well, I'm not. I’m ashamed President G W Bush is equivalent to a tyrant who let his country die of poverty and lack of insurance or inadequate which President Bush allowed all the money went to garnish his friends industrial military complexes , gouged oil prices, and health industry's who dominate the market with obscene profits.
http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/08/23/what-tom-ridge-actually-says-in-his-new-book/?iid=tsmodule

Because the puppet GW Bush gave Dick Cheney, Karl Rove, and Donald Rumsfeld whatever they wanted. Can you say monopoly? It appears Cheney is a torturer and murderer.
**************************************************************************************************************************************
So we put him on the table and Dick holds a napkin over his eyes and then starts pouring big gulps of ice water out of a pitcher into his nose and mouth. "C-c-c-can't b-b-b-reathe!" Manny gasps, and Dick is like, "We know, Manny, that's why we're doing this. Just relax." Next, Don starts pouring hot coffee in his ears and eyes, and Manny screams, at which point Dick says, "No, Don, it's not about temperature or burning, it's all about drowning." Rummy nods, and we go back to pouring the water up his nose. Manny is kicking and screaming, and Dick finally starts getting mad. "You're making a lot of noise, Manny. You're going to have to calm down."

But Manny is still screaming and Rummy is shaking his head, like he's not sure it's really working. "I still say it would work better if you could apply some heat," he says. "Here, try this." So he takes out his lighter and uses it to set Manny's ears on fire. "There, look at that," he says. Manny is really flailing around now, and Don looks totally engaged in the process.

"Mmm," Dick says. "I just don't think the law is going to let us do that." So they launch into an argument about it, and after a while we realize that Manny isn't moving anymore. There's a little streak of vomit coming out of his mouth and his little eyes have stopped blinking. Basically, he died. We had to get a new houseboy. One good thing about that is we made the decision not to set people's ears on fire.

Source page 4: http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/25329027

Throw you graph out the window. The Government Accountability Office found that the median _or midpoint — market share of the largest carrier increased to 47 percent in 2008 from 33 percent in 2002.

Competition Lacking Among Private Health Insurers
By Ricardo Alonso-Zaldivar (AP) – 19 hours ago

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hN0cAfY9X-3PKZFdgeAhiCvCUG8gD9A88EL80


http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/09/08/21/Weekly-Address-The-Moral-Case-for-Health-Insurance-Reform/

Now, First of All, Jank
*Can you , please explain that rising health care costs are not hurting you, all Americans, and our businesses.

* Next explain how raising taxes for those who make more than $250,000 per year is not a fair way to pay for health care reform

*Lastly, explain how the benefits of the House bill, HR 3200 – America’s Affordable Health Choices Act is unnecessary.





bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 4:31 PM

Andy,

You are so creative with numbers. But, the problem is you are always looking in the wrong places. I suggest you read my response to Jank

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 4:36 PM

Beverly - you link all that first mess to a story with headline:

Bush Apologizes: The Farewell Interview We Wish He'd Give
W. comes clean - on his dad, Condi's farts and the time Dick waterboarded the house boy

And you want to debate after that?

Not even a nice try.



jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 4:40 PM

Beverly - there is no magic wand to just wipe away the horrible deficits this administration have cruelly dumped on the next generations to come.

With this administrations giving away of our country to China and other countries who have lent us money we may never be able to repay, our future generations may not have a United States to love as I do. We will be owned by those who have bought our debt and no longer want to lend us anything.

There is no money. The Fed has printed monopoly money for what we're doing now, which doesn't even begin to cover Cap and Tax and Socialist health care.

The country is for all intents and purposes bankrupt right now.

Again, people with incomes over $250,000 are the small business owners up to big business owners who provide jobs for the rest of us. You play class warfare on them - and the people who will be hurt most are the people who depended on them for jobs.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 4:44 PM

Your response to Jank was filled with lots of partisan bunk, Beverly.

FYI the lack of competition in state insurance markets is a direct result of federal law preventing the selling of insurance across state lines. Why doesn't Obama have it repealed?

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 4:50 PM

So why did you not read page 4. Actually, you really don't need to since your glossing over the title gave you the thought it was nonsense. Read the paragraphs from Rolling Stone on page 4 of the link or the ones I copied for you; then see if you are still proud of a country and Cheney that tortured a teenage or perhaps even murdered him.

Can you still justify no Public option when you have 2 links provided to disprove Fox(Faux) News talking points?

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 4:50 PM

Don't be too proud of that surplus in 2000, Donna.

The economy was slipping into recession from and taxes needed to be cut sooner, rather than later in 2001. Bill Clinton was asleep at the switch on that one and left office with the economy at a standstill.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 4:56 PM

Andy
You are the partisan one coming up with these strange numbers. The problem is you still are looking in all the wrong places and provide no justification for you numerical, partisan, rants.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 5:02 PM

The surplus existed when GW took office and he squandered it. That is something to be ashamed of from a C average President. I would think , even with that grade point average and his expertise, GW would have managed the budget much better. GW Bush was the only president in American history to come into office with an MBA and no knowledge of the economic mechanisms of this country.

That is a shame.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 5:08 PM

Let's try it again, Beverly

"The economy was slipping into recession from March forward and taxes needed to be cut sooner, rather than later in 2001. Bill Clinton was asleep at the switch on that one and left office with the economy at a standstill."

The economy did tank in 2000. Here's Alan Greenspan noting that the economy was "very close to zero growth" in early Feb 2001

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/economy/jan-june01/economy_2-2.html

We know Bush cut taxes and that despite 9-11 and Enron the economy recovered.

I'm sorry these matters are so difficult for you

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 6:19 PM

That wasn't being proud, Andy, that was pointing out that you're wrong again.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 6:23 PM

Donna, the graph shows a steady climb from the 80s. One year does not change a 30-year trend.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 6:25 PM

Let's not forget to mention what would have happened to the economy if 9-11 had happened now with the indebtedness we have. I'm so very grateful for the way President Bush lifted us up out of what could have been complete economic collapse to bring us to a lower than 5% unemployment rate.

I'm at a loss how the spending of President Bush is considered horrible and unforgivable by liberals - something to be attacked every day - but the spending of this administration which is many times higher is considered brilliant and is applauded daily.

Also - I would be really careful attacking President Bush's college scores. At least we know what they are.

SOMEBODY is blatantly scared spitless that anyone will find out HIS college scores - in fact he refuses to allow either Columbia or Harvard to release anything about his grades.

Be careful of your words, because someday you may have to eat them. Eventually those details we're not allowed to know will come to light.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 6:41 PM

Didn't bother reading all the nasty blogs after Clevercloggs asked if we favor Scottish independence. I say very definitely yes, I also favor the English getting out of Ireland. It is imperialistic of the British empire as well as US to hang onto countries that want independence. Let them govern themselves is my answer.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 6:44 PM

Linda I don't watch fox news period. Why do you always post links for a biased news network?

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 6:48 PM

I haven't found ANY network that isn't biased. It just happens that Fox News is the only one biased away from liberals/progressives.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 6:57 PM

I have read enough to post, Smoke once again could not have said it better. I read the link you posted on War. Hey folks 3 trillion dollars down the drain to liberate people who hate us. They are not and never will be liberated as a whole country. If they do it will not be a US copycat version of OUR idea of democracy. That is one of the reasons our economy spiraled into recession as well as mortgage crisis. That money would pay for national health care, but instead it is gone. Along with thousand of US lives for what and Jank be specific what weapons of mass destruction did we find. NONE. We are still there fighting a war that Iraqi soldiers should be fighting. You say you are glad we invaded what possible purpose did we achieve?

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 7:07 PM

Jank you said people who earn 250,000 a year and above are all small business owners and employ people. BULL, and even if they do they earn that much off the backs of hard labor by working people that probably have no health care insurance. Yes, Beverly is right anyone earning over 250,000 a year should pay more in taxes to help support the health care package. And then some, sorry I am not a proponent of trickle down economics.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 7:17 PM

I actuallly cited Krugman in the NY Times-admit I gagged a bit. Quite regually read the Washington Post-Krauthammer about my favorite opinion writer I will leave the "unbiased" Huuffington Post and Swampland whatever to Beverly LOL

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 8:38 PM

That all sounds overwhelming - except for one thing - the truth!

The cost of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars together have not yet even cost $1 Trillion.

http://costofwar.com/ - Real time cost clock

$1 Trillion is a lot - $3 Trillion is a misrepresentation and is not the truth.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 10:41 PM

Amazing how much you can save when you don't give the soldiers decent armor.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 23rd Aug '09 10:57 PM

That's an old complaint taken care of 5 years ago.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 12:16 AM

Jank0614
Ya know, I bet there wasn't much of any healthcare in Iraq either. And there were weapons hidden in schools and hospitals - a complete lack of concern for any of the Iraqui citizens outside the palace.

They don't hide weapons in US schools, they use them, on each other. The hospitals in Iraq, before ten years of sanctions that killed thousands of kids, were the envy of the region. You need less Fox faux news my friend.

surreyman
Surreyman  (Level: 260.9 - Posts: 2770)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 3:11 AM

Just a thought ... have no life sentence murderers in the US ever been released before death for humanitarian reasons?

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 3:43 AM

Collioure
The sanctions killed kids, Dave?
Not Saddam who diverted Oil for Food money to buy weapons?
There must be something to defend in the pathetic Muslim world, Dave.
If you keep inventing lies about it, you'll probably never discover it.

Are you calling me a liar Coolio ? One last time, for the dull among us, i do not set out to defend islam.......i am an atheist. I do not agree with censoring these posts, so i will not asked for your pathetic allegation to be removed. I do disagree that the fractured Iraq of today is any better that it was under Saddam, it's just a different religious sect suffering. Enabling Kurdistan to be formed is going to prove to be one of the worst mistakes ever made, ask Turkey.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 3:44 AM

Mass murderers, Alan?

I very much doubt it.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 3:54 AM

And innocent, Martin?

Uh, I don't think so!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investigation_into_the_bombing_of_Pan_Am_Flight_103

"There is nothing in the evidence which leaves us with any reasonable doubt as to the guilt of the first accused"

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 3:57 AM

Dave, you may not set out to defend Islam, but you do it so often.

FYI a republic uniting all the Kurds would be a very good idea. In fact redrawing the borders in that region to unite the various tribal groups would eliminate a large deal of the strife there. How did you Brits get that so wrong?

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 4:31 AM

Collioure
Dave, you may not set out to defend Islam, but you do it so often.
FYI a republic uniting all the Kurds would be a very good idea. In fact redrawing the borders in that region to unite the various tribal groups would eliminate a large deal of the strife there. How did you Brits get that so wrong?

So it turns out that Coolio is the supporter of islamic terrorists after all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Workers'_Party
The PKK is a separatist militant organization that is recognized as a terrorist group by the EU and USA.
These murdering scum have been leaving bombs all of Turkey for decades, many European holiday makers have been killed.
The Turkish army and air force have had to go into "Kurdistan" on several occasions to hunt out PKK members. Yey again Coolio only knows the Fox faux news version of the story.


collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 4:46 AM

I did what?

Dream on.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 4:47 AM

BTW I don't get Fox News, Dave.

I am, however, reading Ralph Peters

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 4:48 AM

Jank and Andy

The both of you are too tranquil about the direction of healthcare in this country. You continue to cite yesteryear’s problem. This problem left undone can ham many of US.

The consequences of the past are the reason we are now in a debate over changing the present insurance monopolies in this country. How you can justify people in this country who have died, are dying and have potential to affect those of US who may be healthy? With the present rationing system of healthcare, the higher premiums that come out of payroll deductions result in lower take home pay. Lower take home pay means you can’t pay your bills. Some businesses can’t afford it. Either they lay people off or they don't offer insurance. Some create part time jobs. Part time jobs can hardly take care of anyone, needless to say families.
If those people are left untreated, just image the repressions. Case in point is the swine flu. There are other diseases not as potentially lethal. Cancer is not transmittable, but hepatitis B and C are, so is HIV. In the United States people are currently infected with either hepatitis B or hepatitis C. Both are considered silent diseases simply because frequently, those infected have no obvious symptoms. Without proper screening and treatment, viral hepatitis patients frequently die from liver cancer or liver disease and can pass the infection on to others. Knowledge Is Power! I don't need to enumerate every transmittable disease because you are intelligent enough to see the bigger picture

Hepatitis B and C are treatable illnesses when detected early, and the Public Option not Co-op is a tremendous opportunity to educate the American people on their ability to either reduce or prevent the progression of this disease.”
To undertake the valuable role in educating the public on preventing, diagnosing and treating chronic transmittable diseases should, I hope, afford you to take a closer look at this component of the much needed Public Option. The overall health of our communities is just as essential for all Americans and her future
The public option in health care changes can’t wait as those who just say NO want to continue doing.

It is GW Bush's fault for so slavishly following the advise of Cheney who put tax payer dollars for war and Military Complexes over the health and wealth of this nation. Can you say "slam dunk" of "yellow cakes"?

GW Bush didn't want to go after the person responsible for the war on terror in Afghanistan. Now look at were we are in this mire?.


collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 4:55 AM

Beverly, no one wants to stand still, and most do not want the federal government calling the shots.

Let's look at legislation that addresses the uninsured straight on, nothing more.

Let's introduce more competition into the insurance markets.

And if you want to shift medical resources to the younger generations (which seems fair to me), let us all talk about that before anyone votes to do that.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 4:56 AM

IF it is so urgent why is bnot going to be implemented until 2013? Couldn't be that the "HOPE" is Barrack would be reelected before the people realized how badly they had been duped. JUST sees FISHY-tooo bad becuse of pressure from even the ACLU they removed Flag from the WH website otherwise I would send thst thought to them

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 5:15 AM



The AClU is for Civil Rights organization you would expect them to weigh in .I don't believe the WH is concerned about a data base to spy on people. you, Glenn Beck, Hannity, Limbaugh and others who believe the President is Hitler is re-incarnate; and that Acorn is a building an army to place Americans in concentration camps do....LOL
Besides, the e-mails were asked to be sent to dispel myths about the President's healthcare agenda. It's that Fox News reporter, Major Garret, who insists the WH has a list; despite Gibbs telling him their is no data list

Also it was a third party firm who did the site. H-u-m-m-m sounds like more jobs to me.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 5:30 AM

Let's see . It's the federal government that provides security for US with police, fire department, the armed service, bridges, roads, libraries, some hospitals , medicare, and the post-office, etc. If they or you don't want these services they have the same choice you made; don't use them! Many other people many more than the ones the slants polls cite want healthcare. Love it or leave it as you did.

surreyman
Surreyman  (Level: 260.9 - Posts: 2770)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 5:40 AM

Collioure:

Totally agree with you that the 'lines in the sand' drawn by ex-colonial powers were often stupid, and have caused many problems since.
One not impossible answer to Iraq is to divide into three independent states - not without many problems in itself, but probably fewer than currently being experienced!
And it's happening elsewhere. Yugoslavia especially - and even possibly now in the UK!

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 7:17 AM

Again, Beverly, you just make stuff up and blame us for it.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 7:47 AM

Just heard of Fox-rumors thartt Madoff is dying. Should he be released on "compassionate" grounds? Just asking...

larefamiliaris
Larefamiliaris  (Level: 135.2 - Posts: 877)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 8:55 AM

Colliure,

*sigh*

I'm going to try and make this is as impersonal as I can. If you plan to trust an entry in Wikipedia over the Scottish legal profession, the Scots press (both sides of the political divide) and the majority of Scottish families who lost relations in the air and on the ground, then that's entirely your affair.
So here you are:

"and on 28 June 2007 the SCCRC announced[3] its decision to refer the case to the Court of Criminal Appeal in Edinburgh after it found he "may have suffered a miscarriage of justice".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103

Please attempt to remember that personal opinions are not facts. The facts in this case point to the above quote. I'm sorry if you don't like that, but shouting the odds won't make any difference.

On n'apprend pas aux vieux singes à faire des grimaces.
C'est la vie.




caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 8:58 AM

The company that sent the e-mails has no list of its own. So where did they get the list?? Questionable at best if taxpayer money wa used to lobby for Obamacare

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 9:18 AM

Surreyman
Totally agree with you that the 'lines in the sand' drawn by ex-colonial powers were often stupid, and have caused many problems since.
One not impossible answer to Iraq is to divide into three independent states - not without many problems in itself, but probably fewer than currently being experienced!
And it's happening elsewhere. Yugoslavia especially - and even possibly now in the UK!

Obviously a divided Iraq is easier for the West to control. What a pity Bush and his henchmen didn't have the balls or honesty to admit that was the aim in the first place.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 1:45 PM

Martin, may I sign now too?

I don't see enough there to even get to reasonable doubt. Too many elements finger the convicted Libyan.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 1:58 PM


tuzilla
Tuzilla  (Level: 134.1 - Posts: 3779)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 2:42 PM

Great idea. The Kurds get the lion's share of the oil. That will sit well with a peaceful Sunni and Shiite population. No chance of dispute in that solution.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 2:43 PM

Collioure
Martin, may I sign now too?
I don't see enough there to even get to reasonable doubt. Too many elements finger the convicted Libyan.

You're in the right country Coolio.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 3:17 PM

CORRECTION

Martin, may I SIGH now too?

I don't see enough there to even get to reasonable doubt. Too many elements finger the convicted Libyan.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 24th Aug '09 10:58 PM

The US Department of Justice will investigate torture.

Striping naked ( alleged) combatants
Threatening to rape wives and mothers
Killing children
Firing guns in a vacant cell then bringing a body disguised as dead to view
Eating baseballs
Smoking cigs until it's unbearably gagging
Putting pressure on the carotid artery until the detainee would start to pass out, then shaking him awake and repeating the procedure twice more
Waterboarding
Revving a power drill as while the terrorist (alleged) stood naked with a hood over his head.

Hey, ask me to do any of the above consistently and I'll sing whatever you want. Now whose to say the detainees didn't?

Mr. Cheney is on a boat so he is not available for comment. What country do you think he's headed to? Interpol time; this really is the Dark, Medieval, Side, of torture. This is un-American and could it be a slam dunk?




collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Tue, 25th Aug '09 4:06 AM

Is that going to fix the economy, Beverly?

Because except for a few left wingnuts nobody cares about that, and most of the rest of us care about the economy.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Tue, 25th Aug '09 4:30 AM

Vice President Cheney offered these cogent remarks, Beverly

"The documents released Monday clearly demonstrate that the individuals subjected to Enhanced Interrogation Techniques provided the bulk of intelligence we gained about al Qaeda. This intelligence saved lives and prevented terrorist attacks. These detainees also, according to the documents, played a role in nearly every capture of al Qaeda members and associates since 2002. The activities of the CIA in carrying out the policies of the Bush Administration were directly responsible for defeating all efforts by al Qaeda to launch further mass casualty attacks against the United States. The people involved deserve our gratitude. They do not deserve to be the targets of political investigations or prosecutions. President Obama’s decision to allow the Justice Department to investigate and possibly prosecute CIA personnel, and his decision to remove authority for interrogation from the CIA to the White House, serves as a reminder, if any were needed, of why so many Americans have doubts about this Administration’s ability to be responsible for our nation’s security."

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Tue, 25th Aug '09 1:14 PM

Cheney doesn't have cogent remarks to add to situation. Why because he is Dick Cheney. His record and all he made from defense contracts in Iraq with his company speak for themselves.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21603)
Tue, 25th Aug '09 1:30 PM

Cannot think of another thing to call this but a "witch hunt" to take the focus off of what is happening in the economy and appease the Left. All of these cases were investigated years ago and only one was deemed worthy of prosecution-guy found guilty case currently on Appeal. Obama won the election on hate Bush/Cheney so now that he is in trouble he has resurrected this that some won't be happy until the as Cloggs aptly phrases it, gets Cheney in the dock. When, and they will pursue the lawyers they will simply say they were following policy .. This is an extremely devisive issue for the country and shame on Obama for using it to cover his butt. The majority of the American people do not want this can of worms opened. On the economy if the current projected deficit is all the fault of Bush, why did he just nominate the guy that Bush had as Chairman of the Federal Reserve-politicals as usual.


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