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smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Sat, 29th Aug '09 6:22 PM

SO, TED KENNEDY AND MICHAEL JACKSON COME BEFORE ST. PETER....

....that as far as I've got....

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Sat, 29th Aug '09 6:26 PM

That's funny.

Actually I think MJ will do just fine. Kennedy ????

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Sat, 29th Aug '09 6:27 PM

I didn't think they would be going UP but that is just me

larefamiliaris
Larefamiliaris  (Level: 135.2 - Posts: 877)
Sat, 29th Aug '09 7:27 PM

...and St Pete says "Sorry boys: your names aren't down, you're not getting in."

kissmygrits
Kissmygrits  (Level: 3.5 - Posts: 26)
Sat, 29th Aug '09 10:40 PM

reminds me of 2 Michael Jackson songs...

Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'

Why You Wanna Trip On Me

kaufman
Kaufman  (Level: 256.8 - Posts: 3936)
Sat, 29th Aug '09 11:01 PM

So Ted offers Mikey a ride over the rainbow bridge and MJ tells him to beat it ...

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sun, 30th Aug '09 12:21 AM

Sweet Dreams, await most of the urbane masses; but only those two can go sailing in the clouds. Wait a minute where is heaven? Is it beneath the clouds, on the side of the universe; below the universe. Trillions of people are waiting; some anxiously. They both like to sing. They can sing as they sail on by those waiting to find out the final verdict. Will you see them in passing on? Not me baby I make my heaven on earth ( can I say that without offense)?

Stay as hot as the two of you are cool.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Sun, 30th Aug '09 5:02 AM

It is really not to cool to speak ill of dead. They just buried Ted Kennedy sorry don't really see any humor in it.

madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.6 - Posts: 893)
Sun, 30th Aug '09 5:27 AM

Thanks, Bobo -- I felt icky about this.

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Sun, 30th Aug '09 11:08 AM

Oh dear.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Sun, 30th Aug '09 4:23 PM

You are very welcome Madame, it is a priviledge to be posting with you.

godwit
Godwit  (Level: 78.9 - Posts: 435)
Sun, 30th Aug '09 5:03 PM

Very cool to say it's not cool. Thanks.

Always witty and clever Smaug--enjoyable. This one not.

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Sun, 30th Aug '09 5:34 PM

I'm going to rant here and probably get flamed but that's ok.

Ted Kennedy is getting too much one way deification. Would liberals be as respectful of Gingrich dying? Or either Bush?

Let's be blunt, although not particularly PC and maybe a few days early. JFK and RFK were brave men and true leaders and their assassinations were tragic. Ted and the rest of the junior varsity Kennedy's have been living on their political dime ever since despite, let's say, some pretty appalling behavior that would have scotched anyone else's political careers. And I haven't even said "Kopechne".

Ted "Smith" would never have seen the inside of the Senate cloakroom. He lived on daddy's money and when he got to DC every idea he had was playing Robin Hood spending someone else's money.

He was a serial womanizer and substance abuser who treated women like cr@p, including his poor wife who he pretty much drove nuts.

Hey, I don't like to hear of anyone dying, but I don't agree with his politics and I don't agree with his personal behavior. Maybe he was kind to dogs and small children, I don't know. I think with the incredible advantages of fortune and family he enjoyed -- maybe unique in his generation, ponder that -- he should have been a truly great man, a shoe-in two term president who could have led the nation.

Instead, he was born on third base, and everyone on the news this weekend is saying he hit a triple.

At least he wasn't a stalking pedophile. Ted, I mean.


papajensai
Papajensai  (Level: 193.1 - Posts: 1025)
Wed, 2nd Sep '09 3:35 PM

Thanks for the calm and fact-based statement of opinion, Smaug. Not a 'rant', IMO.

See, folks, that's how you have strong opinions about something and talk about them in a reasonable 'tone of voice' without insulting other participants in the discussion, either by calling them names or implying various personality deficiencies. I appreciate the correct spelling, grammar, and punctuation, too.

We all know Smaug, and we know when he is kidding around. This post is the way grownups speak and act. Thanks!

ravensclaw
Ravensclaw  (Level: 43.0 - Posts: 158)
Wed, 2nd Sep '09 4:49 PM

Well said Smaug! It was Ted Kennedy's actions that speak "Ill" of him, NOT your reference to his actions.

Bobo - Please define "he more than paid for the ancient crime".

Surely you're not referencing the 8-9 long miserable hours he "suffered" while pondering his politcal future and
SLEEPING before informing authorities of Ms Kopechne's whereabouts, are you? or... are you referencing the
46 years he served as a U.S. Senator as paying for an ancient crime? I'm Confused. I see nothing to indicate he
suffered ANY consequences of (and let's be honest here) his unlawful and dishonorable actions on the night of
July 18, 1969.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Wed, 2nd Sep '09 5:17 PM

I hope none here has ever made a horrible mistake in their lives that they try to get over and make up for.

What happened to that girl was a tragedy, but it wasn't the only thing he ever did in his life, and it was an accident. Even here I don't think anyone is claiming that he deliberately murdered her.

I don't know how many here remember those times, and I don't mean to offer excuses for what happened that night, but the accident came one year after Bobby's murder, the second brother slaughtered in public, and the last of the three big brothers he'd grown up with now gone. I'll also point out that it was 1969 and a lot of marriages were falling apart, and Ted's first one was in trouble before the vows - Joan's father pushed her to marry into the Kennedy family and she didn't really want to, was never happy with them. From her own description of her childhood, if she was unstable, she was that way when they got married.

We can't see into the marriages of others, not even when the gory details are forced on us in chatrooms, there are always two sides and we simply don't know that he "drove her nearly crazy" or if it was the other way around. We don't know, and it's vicious to speculate in that manner about the failure of his first marriage because you don't like his politics.

Whatever happened that night, he spent the rest of his days serving his country, and the people of Massachusetts called him back to that service again and again as long as they could. He was a flawed man, but a good one, who stood like a rock at the center of that family and helped raise all the fatherless children left by his murdered brothers, and you can't fake the love, respect and grief shown by everyone at his funeral, including many of his senatorial adversaries.

Smaug's sentiments don't surprise me, but the timing wasn't good.

madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.6 - Posts: 893)
Wed, 2nd Sep '09 5:30 PM

Again ... no one here has walked in the shoes of anyone like Ted Kennedy ... but I think it's interesting how they keep resurrecting the old stuff and overlooked his service to the country since then.

If we all opened up our own 'balance sheets', looked at the positives and negatives in our own lives, we might not come off looking so great ourselves.

The harshness of this ongoing criticism could be saying more about the poster than Kennedy.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Wed, 2nd Sep '09 6:31 PM

Smaug made very little reference to past mistakes. He only noted that their name got many of the Kennedy clan where they got in spite of the mistakes that would have taken the average Joe down if not to prison. The name coupled with the money. Until another Sploofus member called him names breaking the rules here, he did not. Kennedy did impact lives depending on your vantage point if you see the impact as negative or positive.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Wed, 2nd Sep '09 7:34 PM

I called a spade a spade. Hey some of you may not blatlantly call names but you get your point across nonetheless. I am stating it is very untimely to reply to Kennedy's death in such a matter as to make a joke of it. That said I don't care that they deleted I probably knew they would.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Wed, 2nd Sep '09 7:59 PM

If anyone's intent was to simply be disrespectful they would have posted negative things on the thread about Kennedy's death. people have the right to express opinions on what part name played in getting many in the Kennedy clan adulations which most likely would have resulted in prison time for the average Joe.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Wed, 2nd Sep '09 8:03 PM

I doubt that any average Joe would have received prison time for freaking out after crashing a car and almost drowning. And he certainly wouldn't have had to endure hearing about it in the media for the rest of his life. And after.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Wed, 2nd Sep '09 8:10 PM

If he had tried to be a public figure you can bet your butt he would have.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Wed, 2nd Sep '09 8:13 PM

Probably wasn't back then but now driving drunk and causing a death is negligent homicide. Of course, there was no proof he was drunk because he didn't report it until the next day.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Wed, 2nd Sep '09 8:20 PM

like I said. The average joe.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Wed, 2nd Sep '09 8:32 PM

You have made no secret you dislike the Kennedy family but in your mythical, delusional world you link them to all the problems of western civilisation talk about irreverent.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Wed, 2nd Sep '09 8:40 PM

: guess you gathered from what I can decipher amidst the insults that personally am not huge Teddy fan-clueless as to the rest

asor
Asor  (Level: 156.0 - Posts: 589)
Wed, 2nd Sep '09 8:53 PM

Well put, Donna. I don't understand why it's so difficult to let people "rest in peace." When Gingrich or Bush I or II dies, I would see no reason to take that opportunity to vilify him. It's a time when people who are grieving express their grief--and perhaps their love and admiration or gratitude. I don't see the purpose of trying to cause further pain or unhappiness to those who are sad a person has died. Just let it be. It has nothing to do with you, and there's no reason to interject yourself into other people's process of mourning. There is certainly no reason to focus on the single worst incident in the deceased's life.

When time has passed and emotions are less raw, there is always plenty of opportunity for people to make their points about a person's life and add their two cents to history. It puts the same opinions out there but does so in a manner that is more respectful, humane, and considerate to those who are grieving in the family home or thousands of miles away via computer. It costs nothing to be a better person.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Wed, 2nd Sep '09 9:00 PM

Nope, they are villified pretty much on a daily basis while stilll very much alive along with Palin-think you forgot to incude her and Beck.

asor
Asor  (Level: 156.0 - Posts: 589)
Wed, 2nd Sep '09 9:08 PM

Both sides are vilified in life. I find it difficult to understand how someone could fail to comprehend the difference between criticizing a public figure and criticizing a public figure for whom people are in mourning. This goes far beyond social graces (though they are sorely missed in such instances); it's about human consciousness and consideration, pure and simple.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Wed, 2nd Sep '09 9:18 PM

I was not quite clear in my post. That was my fault. Believve the criticism comes because Ted Kennedy is being elevated by many to almost Sainthood level. Many in the health care thing have latched on to the refrain, 'Do it for Teddy's sake". They have made him as political rallying cry which invites criticism. When someone like Bush, Cheney, Gingrich, or Palin dies if the manntra is seized, 'Do it for ....' they will receive criticism as quickly after death as Teddy has.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Wed, 2nd Sep '09 9:26 PM

It's so disrespectful to link Micheal and Ted Kennedy as deserving of public ridicule after their deaths now and in the future. Despite their human frailties , no one can deny they did far more for the lives of people in this world than the mistakes they made.
When Newt Gingrich dies I can only say wait and see. However, I doubt if all liberals will demonize him as many of us do not wish to be that uncouth.

BTW: Neither of the 2 needed to wrap themselves in the American flag to prove they loved our country. Micheal Jackson is in the Guinness World for giving more to charity than anyone. Ted Kennedy has a laundry list of achievements he made toward the betterment of lives of the lesser few. Neither of them stole from anyone either.


oldcougar
Oldcougar  (Level: 219.7 - Posts: 1935)
Wed, 2nd Sep '09 9:33 PM

When I was 20 I dated a fellow for over a year who was tall, blonde & Hollywood handsome, he was also extremely intelligent & very funny. He had a good blue collar job & was a hard worker. He wanted to marry me & I wanted to marry him but I had to end the relation because he was a drunk, not a mean drunk but a drunk, nonetheless. When he was 16 he drove his car off the coal wharf into the ocean due to icy conditions & inexperience, he hadn’t been drinking. He managed to get out & surface, neither of his passengers came up, so he drove back down & pulled the boy in the passenger’s seat out & up. After he got him onto a lower part of the wharf he dove back down & tried to get the other boy but couldn’t. He surfaced, got another breath & went back down, still unable to get the boy in the back seat out. When he surfaced again, more people had arrived & had to fight him out of the water. He was treated for hypothermia. He never got over accidentally killing one of his friends so he turned to the bottle. His drinking cost him his university education, a wife & the pleasure of having his own children but he did manage to keep his menial job that bored him beyond belief. He still drinks. I wonder if he still screams in his sleep.

If I could be you and you could be me for just one hour
If we could find a way to get inside each other's mind
If you could see you through my eyes instead of your ego
I believe you'd be surprised to see that you'd been blind

Walk a mile in my shoes
Walk a mile in my shoes
Yeah, before you abuse, criticize and accuse
Walk a mile in my shoes


asor
Asor  (Level: 156.0 - Posts: 589)
Wed, 2nd Sep '09 9:42 PM

Thank you for the clarification. If people choose to pay tribute to someone by attempting to advance a cause about which he or she was passionate in life, I think that's understandable, even laudable. If it happens that one opposes the cause, then I think one's rightful action would be to continue to oppose the cause. However, I don't see how that's accomplished by attacking the character of the recently deceased. There's just a big disconnect for me there, especially because most of the aspersions being cast are of a highly personal (and sometimes highly debatable) nature. They have nothing to do with Kennedy's work in advancing health care (or destroying it, depending on one's point of view); they are simply intended to discount the good this person has done and harm his reputation. Surely that can wait till after the mourners have changed out of their black.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Wed, 2nd Sep '09 9:56 PM

We are not going to agree on this on. Harry Reid said I believe yesterday that Ted Kennedy's death probably would prove useful in getting health care passed-not only not respectful but calculating. My point was you cannot ressurect someone's memory to advance a cause without expecting to invoke criticism of the person. The thread about Ted Kenedy's death did not bring negative posts. Most of us who dod not much carre for him just chose not to post. This thread had disappeared into the Splofous hereafter before someone ressurected it I am guessing to bash Smaug for something he had said in another thread. I cannot prove that and am pretty much done with this thread for tonight and am hoping it is gone by the time I get up in the morning

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Wed, 2nd Sep '09 9:59 PM

Beautiful post, Asor.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Wed, 2nd Sep '09 10:00 PM

You too, Randy.

titansgal
Titansgal  (Level: 17.6 - Posts: 35)
Wed, 2nd Sep '09 10:03 PM

Peace 'til morning!

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Wed, 2nd Sep '09 10:15 PM

Peace out, Linda has spoken she is done with this thread!

godwit
Godwit  (Level: 78.9 - Posts: 435)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 1:09 AM

It's ranting. As he said it would be.

lodi
Lodi  (Level: 98.7 - Posts: 2144)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 1:36 AM

I actually, at one time, found myself morbidly fascinated with the Kennedy tragedies, and used to read all about JFK, Bobby, and Ted. I don't know how many times I've watched the Zapruder film, or poured through the interviews when Bobby was shot. I'm drawn to it like a magnet, and no less interesting is Ted Kennedy's accident. I've read and read and read about that and am still as intrigued with it today as when I first started. But like I said, I have a morbid fascination with such things.

Here it is in a nutshell, keeping in mind that its wiki so its validity is in question.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chappaquiddick_incident

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 1:41 AM

I just posted that link and the FBI file, and, unless I misfired, it was deleted.

It was either the Cubans or the CIA...

lodi
Lodi  (Level: 98.7 - Posts: 2144)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 1:43 AM

Why on earth would someone delete it? Its history. Its fascinating. We can post links to political rants but not history?

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 1:56 AM

I dunno. I'll give the editors the benefit of the doubt, maybe I misfired the post. But anyone that can read your link and this FOIA file and say that TK shouldn't have done time for manslaughter plus fleeing plus conspiracy plus DWI plus plus needs to re-read:

http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/chappaquiddick.htm



kimoira
Kimoira  (Level: 201.7 - Posts: 1190)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 6:07 AM

I've always wondered why Kennedy didn't go along with what Kopechne's parents suggested: that their daughter had passed out in the back seat of his car and he didn't know she was there when he left the party with another woman. Even if not true, it's a heck of a lot better than the CYA actions he allegedly took and it would explain his much witnessed unruffled demeanor at breakfast the next morning.


smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 8:25 AM

So would shock. I'm glad he didn't do that.

donden
Donden  (Level: 112.5 - Posts: 2127)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 9:03 AM

I'm with Smaug 100% on this one. MJ and TK are just two more celebrity types whose past blemishes are overlooked and their contributions exaggerated.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 9:06 AM

One can always exaggerate huge sums of money.

ravensclaw
Ravensclaw  (Level: 43.0 - Posts: 158)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 11:09 AM

If I'm not mistaken, Michael Jackson "generated" more money for charities than he ever donated. There is a difference.
Also, Michael spent much more on "his" lavish lifestyle and than he ever donated or generated for any cause.

asor
Asor  (Level: 156.0 - Posts: 589)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 1:32 PM


smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 4:09 PM

Here are some undeniable facts:

-- Kennedy left his wife home on the trip because she was bedridden having a difficult pregnancy.

-- Wifeless, he later claimed he was driving Mary Jo to the ferry, even though she left her purse and her keys at the party, he walked right past his chauffeur, and he didn't drive to the ferry.

-- In a political maelstrom, he dragged his dangerously pregnant wife to the Kopechne funeral, and she miscarried three days later.

-- The diver that recovered Kopechne's body estimated she lived for two hours in an air bubble.

-- In the 30 minutes after the accident, Kennedy walked by four homes with lights on, one just 150 yards from the accident..

-- Back at the party he grabbed two friends and returned to the scene. when they couldn't get to Mary Jo, the friends demanded he summon the authorities. Kennedy promised he would, than jumped in the ocean, swam a mile to Edgartown and went to bed in a hotel. The next AM he called various friends for political advice. While he was chatting at breakfast with a yachting friend, a fisherman discovered his car and Mary Jo.

etc.

Reading the FBI file, no fair person could come to any conclusion but that he was guilty of manslaughter, DWI, leaving the scene of an accident, failure to report, conspiracy to cover up a crime, and 15 other things I'm not lawyerly enough to know.

I think 99 percent of the American public are unaware of the above facts.

He was unfit for public office.


smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 4:15 PM

I always thought that a lot of the furor was really moral judgments about him being with a woman not his wife, not that she died.

Moral judgments none of us have the right to make.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 4:22 PM

You or I would have served time for these awful crimes.

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 4:34 PM

""Moral judgments none of us have the right to make.""

lol....say wot? You are making moral judgments on my moral judgments?

I have no problem at all making moral judgments of a guy fooling around on his bedridden pregnant wife. Adultery is my topic du year.

Leaving her to die was also tacky, though.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 4:53 PM

Smaug has every right to make those judgments and one cannot dispute them.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 4:59 PM

Yeah, well, adultery and broken marriages is a hotter button for some than others.

I'm not making moral judgments on anyone's marriage, and I'll thank everyone not to make any on mine. Whatever went on in the Kennedy marriage happened decades ago, and none of us is privy to the details, you're speculating on lurid tidbits to make the worst-case scenario.

I don't know about you, but I'm not the same person I was 40 years ago, and I doubt very much that Senator Kennedy was, either. People change, and I think he did and give him credit for doing it.

Just as with Michael Jackson, I see no purpose to using the time of his death as an opportunity for attack, other than to bring discomfort to others here that you have cause to know are saddened by those deaths.


bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 5:04 PM

Could not have said it better Smoke. Why bring up an ancient topic now, what don't we talk about Watergate while we are at it. At least it is more current. Or how about the Iran-Contra debacle. Really lay it to rest along with Senator Kennedy and MJ.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 5:16 PM

I believe this thread is about Teddy. Start your own if you can't stay on topic.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 5:21 PM

This thread should be deleted by editors it is in very poor taste.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 5:22 PM

As is leaving someone to die.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 5:24 PM

How relevant is that at this time in history? The incident was investigated at the time and appropriate actions were taken. If he was going to be charged and prosecuted it would have been then, not now when he is in Arlington Cemetary. Give it a rest.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 5:43 PM

Donna, I too give him credit for becoming a very fine Senator, but Smaug's remarks are equally valid.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 6:03 PM

Or you could stay out of the thread. As you have already ignored the theme. I am Mary Jo's family never thought of her life as irrelevant. He was a ground breaking lawmaker. He was also a sorry human being for what he did. Had he not been such a drunk he most likely would have been President.

kimoira
Kimoira  (Level: 201.7 - Posts: 1190)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 6:17 PM

"So would shock. I'm glad he didn't do that."


Doubtful it was "shock" as the phone calls to his various "handlers" in the wee hours that morning point to anything BUT shock.

Shock doesn't come into play when he is seen conversing with people casually over breakfast and making plans for later that morning.



smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 6:20 PM

And if he hadn't lost all three of the brothers he grew up idolizing he might not have been a drunk!

I know a little about that. Losing one sibling is tremendously stressful and damaging to most of us. I can't imagine how lost and alone he must've felt after he saw Bobby into the ground. His life didn't begin with the accident. It's just a damn shame the accident can't end with his life.

kimoira
Kimoira  (Level: 201.7 - Posts: 1190)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 6:33 PM

"And if he hadn't lost all three of the brothers he grew up idolizing he might not have been a drunk"

Cripes are you serious?

We've all lost people and not all of us get wasted enough to kill others, ( or behave in so negligently a manner that another's death results)!


smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 6:42 PM

Yes, I'm absolutely serious that whatever happened that long-ago night, none of us were there and both people involved are now dead, and I fail to see a reason for this, other than to antagonize people who don't share your views on this and other matters, and to add to the negativity already ruling the board.

Couldn't be more serious.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 6:44 PM

Bobo, "ghouls" shouldn't have been deleted - it's the truest word that's been spoken on the whole thread.

kimoira
Kimoira  (Level: 201.7 - Posts: 1190)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 6:51 PM

"and I fail to see a reason for this, other than to antagonize people who don't share your views "

Smoke I am not trying to antagonize any one, view-sharing or not!



smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 6:58 PM

Sorry, didn't mean you specifically. I just mean I don't see a point to attacking the late senator when it's obvious that some people here respected him and mourn him, unless the object is offend.

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 7:14 PM

I haven't seen an attack on Ted Kennedy yet. I've seen facts and, actually, no refutation of those facts. And. I think they are facts most Americans do not know.

So if one is going to publicly admire and respect a person on an internet forum, the counter facts to those judgments are certainly valid and in-bounds debate points. Otherwise, what point is respect and admiration? Is it to be doled out in ignorance? In truth, aren't most people admiring his name?

To feign this "he came from a broken home" style left wing apologistics is way over the top when you talk about perhaps the most advantaged politician of his generation, unwitting "fortunate son" heir to wealth and political capital unmatched in American history.

And it is criminal how he blundered it away. He should have been a great man.


bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 7:33 PM

He was a great man, and his achievements will stand the test of time. Facts or fiction who makes you folks judge and jury to something that happened almost 50 years ago. I mean really get a grip and take your fascist, right wing nut ideals and put them where the sun don't shine.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 7:45 PM

So PROFOUND -amazing

donden
Donden  (Level: 112.5 - Posts: 2127)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 8:17 PM

Reminds me of a bumper sticker---"Confuse a liberal....use facts and logic"

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 8:32 PM

Donden, I bet your vehicle is loaded with bumper stickers. Yeah Linda it is almost as intelligent and profound to harp on a recently deceased senator who happens to have a different idealogy than yours. If dumb a-- drop dead I wouldn't start a thread and belittle him. I am not that insensitive.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 8:37 PM

Not going to get into a cat fight with you, Bobo, as Smaug has presented the facts whether you or anyone else likes them or not and I can add nothing of substance

donden
Donden  (Level: 112.5 - Posts: 2127)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 8:49 PM

No Bobo, no stickers on my car(s). I'll let you know how I feel. Just pull up next to me at a stop and ask.

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 8:52 PM

Some other little factoids about Ted Kennedy for those forming opinions on his legacy..

-- he was admitted to Harvard not on merit but as a legacy. He was kicked out of Harvard for cheating on a Spanish exam. He was told he could reapply in two years.

-- he then mistakenly signed up for the army for four years. His furious father had to pull strings to change it to two.

-- he never rose above a private.

-- He attended the University of Virginia Law School, and was cited for reckless driving four separate times in 19 months. Hmmm....

-- as far as being a good Democrat, he attempted to unseat President Carter in 1980, and when he was whupped and mathematically eliminated early, he took his fight to the convention to try and change the delegate rules. Reagan laid an historic beating on the split Dems in November.

-- Kennedy's most notable accomplishment, perhaps, was longevity in the Senate. Here are the Massachusetts Republicans he beat: Howard J. Whitmore, Jr., Josiah Spaulding, Robert E. Dinsmore, Michael S. Robertson, Ray Shamie, Joseph D. Malone, Jack E. Robinson III, Kenneth Chase, Mitt Romney. Ok, we've heard of Romney.

-- He wanted his brother Jack's Senate seat in 1962, but you have to be 30 to be a US Senator. His family arranged to have a party pawn hold the seat and resign as soon as Ted was of age, which he obediently did. Ted was eligible on Feb. 22, 1962. He was sworn in on March 14, 1962.

-- At the special election debate for the Democratic nomination, his opponent said the following: ""If his name were Edward Moore, with his qualifications -- with your qualifications, Teddy -- if it was Edward Moore, your candidacy would be a joke.''

-- despite constantly advocating higher taxes on the rich, and regularly railing against "shelters", his father's fortune which fed his trust fund was moved in 1974 to Fiji to avoid US taxes.

Ok, the Giants are on. Refute any of the above if you can.



bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 9:05 PM

Oh in the hell cares what crap you dug up. The point is HE JUST DIED!

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 9:08 PM

That was a typo WHO cares is what I meant. Oh, what you could have done with time and energy it took to dig that bull up.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 9:09 PM

LMAO, Don't confuse Bobo with the facts. Idolize him if you like, but don't expect people that were smart enough to see thru him to join you.

ravensclaw
Ravensclaw  (Level: 43.0 - Posts: 158)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 9:14 PM

Where are the vocal left-leaning "free speech" advocates? Oh, there they are... attacking "free-speech" with name calling.

asor
Asor  (Level: 156.0 - Posts: 589)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 9:39 PM

I'm so glad I don't know you people. This relentless spewing--and repetition and repetition and repetition--of hatred makes me deeply sad. I'm so glad my children are filled with kindness. Maybe the next generation will see a return to civility and dignity.

I have to go upstairs and get a hug now...

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 9:48 PM

"Ok, the Giants are on. Refute any of the above if you can."

I'm not a liberal, but I'll give my commentary and see what I can do off the top of my head. If those are facts, and I admit I didn't bother to check, I guess they aren't refutable, seems to me that perhaps only the "significance" of the facts are, so here it goes. (Do you disagree with that anybody, btw? If so, I "may" need to alter my approach......)

Some other little factoids about Ted Kennedy for those forming opinions on his legacy..

-- he was admitted to Harvard not on merit but as a legacy. He was kicked out of Harvard for cheating on a Spanish exam. He was told he could reapply in two years.

I believe alot of society is not based off merit, I don't fault him for that, as that's how a great deal of these things work. Cheating though imo is unexcusable.

-- he then mistakenly signed up for the army for four years. His furious father had to pull strings to change it to two.

You're morally outraged by what his father did?

-- he never rose above a private.

Out of curiosity, what difference does that make? You think everybody moves up in two years who "deserves" it, as in it's a faultless system? Sometimes, bosses make bad decisions about who to promote, sometimes there is no clear candidate and one is just picked in a very tight race, etc. etc. I don't think we know enough about this.

-- He attended the University of Virginia Law School, and was cited for reckless driving four separate times in 19 months. Hmmm....

Sounds like a failure of the criminal justice system, and not his failing. Alcoholism is a genetic disease not a "moral" issue at all. I recently worked at an addiction clinic, where not one member of the staff, from RN's to therapists, to medical P.H.D.'s believed otherwise. Wonder why you are treating it like one.......

-- as far as being a good Democrat, he attempted to unseat President Carter in 1980, and when he was whupped and mathematically eliminated early, he took his fight to the convention to try and change the delegate rules. Reagan laid an historic beating on the split Dems in November.

I don't know enough about this, perhaps the rules needed to be changed, in which case lost election or not this "might have" been the right thing to do.

-- Kennedy's most notable accomplishment, perhaps, was longevity in the Senate. Here are the Massachusetts Republicans he beat: Howard J. Whitmore, Jr., Josiah Spaulding, Robert E. Dinsmore, Michael S. Robertson, Ray Shamie, Joseph D. Malone, Jack E. Robinson III, Kenneth Chase, Mitt Romney. Ok, we've heard of Romney.

I'm probably going to sound foolish, but did he choose weak opponents? Is that his fault or something?

-- He wanted his brother Jack's Senate seat in 1962, but you have to be 30 to be a US Senator. His family arranged to have a party pawn hold the seat and resign as soon as Ted was of age, which he obediently did. Ted was eligible on Feb. 22, 1962. He was sworn in on March 14, 1962.

Again, I don't care. I help run my dad's company for example, I didn't "earn" my position. Many of my college graduate friends didn't "earn" their position either. Big deal.

-- At the special election debate for the Democratic nomination, his opponent said the following: ""If his name were Edward Moore, with his qualifications -- with your qualifications, Teddy -- if it was Edward Moore, your candidacy would be a joke.''

Wow, an opponent slammed him in a political debate. Unheard of.

-- despite constantly advocating higher taxes on the rich, and regularly railing against "shelters", his father's fortune which fed his trust fund was moved in 1974 to Fiji to avoid US taxes.

That was wrong, good point.

oldcougar
Oldcougar  (Level: 219.7 - Posts: 1935)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 9:58 PM

Here's some facts, in 1969 the attitude to drinking & driving was far different to what it is now, almost anybody that drank, drank & drove. I can site many examples of people I knew of who had accidents while drunk that killed people, including an Anglican minister (who did it twice) that didn't lose their licence much less receive jail time. Does that make it right, NO, but those were the prevailing attitudes of the time. I saw just as many averages Joes get off with a charge of undue care & attention, which was not a criminal charge, as wealthy or public figures. The death of Mary Jo Kopechne & the Ted Kennedy scandal, without a doubt, helped change these misguided attitudes & bring about the changes we see today. At the time of the trial, I'm sure there were many people from all walks of life thinking, there but by the grace of God, go I.

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 10:10 PM

""""I'm so glad I don't know you people. This relentless spewing--and repetition and repetition and repetition--of hatred makes me deeply sad. I'm so glad my children are filled with kindness. Maybe the next generation will see a return to civility and dignity. I have to go upstairs and get a hug now..."""


Thank you, Asor. This made me think of cuddly doe-eyed puppies and rainbows and whiskers on kittens and tow-headed toddlers in feety pajamas on Christmas morn...

Not terribly relevant to an intelligent political discussion, however.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 10:12 PM

Haven't seen any. Whatever. Mission accomplished.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 10:14 PM

And Raven? The "free-speech advocates" around here are right-leaning. Left-leaners understand the concept of house rules.

fudypatootie
Fudypatootie  (Level: 197.2 - Posts: 1302)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 10:26 PM

House rules? Me no unnerstan splain to me i dunno

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 11:10 PM

Oh, you know, all that stuff about being civil and not insulting each other or using foul language.

lodi
Lodi  (Level: 98.7 - Posts: 2144)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 11:15 PM

Looks pretty civil to me in here. Only one person has been calling names.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 11:37 PM

Didn't say otherwise. I was responding to Fudy's question in regard to my comment to Raven.

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Thu, 3rd Sep '09 11:38 PM

I've tried to put out *facts* about my opinion of Ted Kennedy.

Can anyone tell me his accomplishments in life? I'm not being catty, I really don't know of any. Legislation? Doesn't that take 51 other fat cats? Charity? He's a trust fund baby, come on. To my knowledge, his main recognition was as a liberal power broker, which is certainly no way to my heart.

Does he really deserve any more legislative praise from Dems than, say, Robert Byrd, who has been in the Senate since 1952?

(By the way, I just saw that Byrd is third in line for the presidency, and he is 91...)

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 12:03 AM

Would it matter? I quite deliberately did not post to praise Senator Kennedy when he died, because I didn't want to be the one to trigger this whole inevitable mess. I just think it's too bad for all of us as a group that trashing Kennedy in the hour of his death is more important than any impulse toward sensitivity for those who mourn. Quite the contrary. It was the same with Michael Jackson. I suppose it will be the same with every celebrity who dies now who is the least bit polarizing, somebody getting the boot in before the body is cold. I think it sucks. That's my equally valid opinion.

I shudder at what it will be like here, should Bill Clinton die.

That's all.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 12:20 AM

Sorry, if I insulted anyone with name calling. Of course none of you good two shoed people ever have an unkind word or remark, unless the person is dead.

lodi
Lodi  (Level: 98.7 - Posts: 2144)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 12:29 AM

Is it ok if I use that quote on my profile page?

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 1:23 AM

"good two shoed people?"

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 1:42 AM

""""Would it matter? I quite deliberately did not post to praise Senator Kennedy when he died, because I didn't want to be the one to trigger this whole inevitable mess."""""

Triggering inevitable messes is fun. There is no guilt.

""""I just think it's too bad for all of us as a group that trashing Kennedy in the hour of his death"""

Wasn't that like, nine days ago?

"""..is more important than any impulse toward sensitivity for those who mourn.""""

Interesting. When Jerry Garcia died I was bummed. In fact, when Jerry died I had a long debate with a friend of mine who thought he was a useless druggie, and I debated with him until he saw the good in Jerry's artistry, writings, paintings, clothing designs, etc. I think I made that guy mourn Jerry a little, by showing him the good things Gar had done, since the guy already knew some of the bad ones. The guy listened to some of his early bluegrass and became a fan. I thought that was a more effective way to honor Jerry than shouting at him.

I also wrote a letter to the newspaper when some idiot sportswriter ripped Jerry, comparing him to Mickey Mantle (they died about the same time). Well, I'll be the first to tell you, Mickey Mantle was a d-bag. He treated his wife like cr@p, hit on women right in front of their husbands, belittled people, and was a mean drunk. I wrote a letter saying that Garcia was a gentle soul, etc

Personally, I think that sort of communication was more of a tribute to the man than glowering in the corner in a black shawl.

so....tell me what this Kennedy guy did that was so good? Here is your shot to mourn and inform...

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 2:13 AM

I love Jerry Garcia and it is to your credit that you are able to appreciate his talent and kindness, you have the exact opposite politics. Also I meant goody two shoes and I think you know that. Lodi, I find you humor sophomoric and would expect more from an intelligent person. We don't see I to eye but I don't continually criticize you. I suppose you will have a field day with that but frankly I don't care. I was responding to Smaug not you.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 3:40 AM

Thanks again, Smaug.

Liberals, especially the bigoted ones, do not like inconvenient facts.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 6:09 AM

Smaug

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 7:01 AM

Personally, I find many reasons to withold judgement about Ted in this context.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_silence

I didn't know anything about Ted, except for what the media told me my whole life that he was a Kennedy and he was a drunk. That was it, and I'm learning new things all of the time. I didn't know he was he was a brother of John and Robert for example, and I'd never heard of this chippa-whatever incident. Interesting reading, in fact this whole thread is interesting conversation for me since I didn't know hardly anything about him previously.

Curious though, why the questions about whether he ever did anything worthwhile as a senator? Is this just another debate about whether he deserves the air time he's recieving, as in it's too much like Michael Jackson, or if we did get an answer to Smaug's question, what would we have "discovered"? It doesn't seem in bad taste to me, though I have a high tolerance for such things, I'm just having trouble trying to discern this discussions' relevance, as it would seem more relevant (to me who admittedly doesn't get it this time) if the fellow were alive and up for re-election or something. Then it would affect ours and his future as well.......but this is just not clicking for me. Duh.....somebody clue me in please as to why this matters to conservative types of people. Thanx.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 7:08 AM

SYL, I don't mean to be obnoxious. Really. But you didn't know that Ted Kennedy was the brother of John and Bobby? Really?

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 7:31 AM

It matters to me that he has become likened to a god and his name is being used to push the health care nightmare. We have switched from "What would Jesus DO" to "Do it for Teddy or What would Teddy do?"

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 7:42 AM

Yahtzee! A dead man is being attacked because his name might help further the cause of health care for everyone.

Dispicable.

Andy, I hope you don't mean to call me a bigot. If you do, have the testicular fortitude to come right out and say so. Please.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 7:53 AM

No, Donna, it's a characteristic of the species that certainly does not apply to all, but the group has become more and more arrogant over the years and at the same time more interested in protecting its own developed dogma at the expense of the the truth.

As noted before, I don't like either wing of American politics and I regret that gerrrymandering has favored the election of wingers.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 7:57 AM

I see they buried Michael yesterday. Didn't his kids look pale ?

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 7:58 AM

Smaug did NOT attack Teddy. He simply pointed out facts that many don't know about his life. If you wish to defend Teddy's accomplishments please do that rather than turning on Smaug, Andy or myself. I would not have made much note of Kennedy dying until they made it once again someone unpatriotic or unkind to not "Do whatTeddy would Do'.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 7:58 AM

Did you see the suit that Bubbles was wearing? Chic!

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 8:03 AM

I am with Sandy, how could you not know he was JFK, and RK's brother? I know you are a little younger but they have been in the press so often even in recent years. You must live in a vacuum. The conservatives care because the Kennedy's have always been liberal or whatever label you want to use.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 8:08 AM

Oh, they want to use "liberal". They don't think there's anything worse they can call us.



felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 8:14 AM

That's so true. I thought name calling has been prohibited. I would be insulted to be called a liberal.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 8:16 AM

I don't think anyone would accuse you of being liberal felix, your image isn't tarnished.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 8:21 AM

It has never stopped many here of inaccurate name calling before. Me included.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 8:21 AM

That's because you don't know what it really means, Felix. Look it up, it's under L a little below "liar" which you'll easily spot right next to the picture of Glenn Beck. Or it may be George Bush if it's an older edition.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 21600)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 8:24 AM

Oh my, this thread has been highjacked LOL

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 8:25 AM

Hey, Smoke I like Beck and Bush. If they were as evil a you claim, wouldn't they be employed as Sploofus editors?

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 8:26 AM

Possibly. But you still wouldn't make the cut. You're obviously too fine an intellect.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 8:30 AM

Bless your l'il heart. ( I think)!

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 8:51 AM

Smaug, I've got a life-size full color picture of me staying here long enough to bring you around to an appreciation of Ted Kennedy. Should we both live so long.

But on the off-chance that you sincerely want to know of his accomplishments, you may find a few noteworthy bits in these links. Fair warning, though, what I call an accomplishment may very likely be anathema to you. He was, after all, a champion of the little people. There's lots more, but that's all the time I have to google for you this morning.

http://blogs.findlaw.com/law_and_life/2009/08/senator-ted-kennedys-legislative-legacy.html
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/politics/Lion-At-Rest-54980422.html
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1807447,00.html
http://www.indiawest.com/readmore.aspx?id=1431&sid=1



oldcougar
Oldcougar  (Level: 219.7 - Posts: 1935)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 10:16 AM

"DEADHEADS FOR OBAMA"...All those rock stars and celebrities backing Barack Obama are not only targeting the youth vote. In a bid for a decidedly older demographic, The Grateful Dead's Phil Lesh says the band is reuniting for a "one-time-only event in order to lend support to Senator Obama leading into the crucial 'Super-Tuesday' series of primaries."

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 11:28 AM

Re: Lesh. When Jerry was the leader, the Dead stayed out of politics, with the exception of some Rainforest support, as I recall. That is how I like my artists -- apolitical. Dropped Bruce awhile back...

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 11:38 AM

Thanks, smoke, I did read those links.

First off, he was JFKs and RFKs brother? Seriously?

Secondly, I guess what it still boils down to for me is that, in a nutshell, he was, admittedly, a powerful and effective legislative force for liberal causes. But pretty much every thing he championed spent other people's money. Kennedy was a driver for the redistribution of wealth, some would say the socialization of America.

One could say that we brought a higher standard of living for our (pick one based on your philosophy) less fortunate/lazy/underprivileged/less productive, at the price of what, truly?

Trillions of dollars in debt to China, which now has their foot on our throats worse than if they had a nuclear monopoly on us. When they announce they are bailing out of treasury auctions, we are in a true depression.

Spending other people's money to "do good" sure goes down smooth with an end of the day cocktail at the Palm. But when the other people are the Chinese, and you leave them with devastating chits to be paid by our kids, maybe that cocktail should gag you a bit.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 12:57 PM

That's what I thought you thought. Okay, let's see if we can unhijack this thread.

So ... Teddy and Michael somehow get shipped up on the same shuttle, go figure ... and come before St Peter.

Pete: "Hello, boys, sorry about all your bad luck. Senator, I have your personal gate pass here, signed by three popes, says "good job on the acts of contrition!" and there's a message for you from St Paddy, says he's been expecting you, the pub is always open, the beer is always green, and the women are all angels, welcome home."

Teddy: "Sounds like paradise - see you at the pub when you're off guard duty!"

Michael: "Are there any messages for me?"

That's all I've got. Michael's message is from St Vitus, who wants to deal a 40,000-date concert gig in Limbo in exchange for personal moonwalk lessons, but it just won't come together as a punch line.



collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 12:58 PM

Liberal used to mean open-minded.

It doesn't any more, Donna.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 1:00 PM

Funny. "Conservative" has never meant that.

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 1:11 PM

I'm not a conservative.

I still like liberals who are really liberal - e.g;, Robert Reich.

And I still like conservatives who have both feet on the ground, are not preachy and are seeking good, not dogmatic answers - e;g;, Lindsay Graham.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 1:44 PM

Haha, yes, everybody thought that was funny, that I didn't know Ted was brothers with RFK or JFK. Have your little laugh (that's actually why I told y'all, I really don't mind). No really, I don't mind, everybody out here thought that was funny as well.

A couple of e-mails seemed interested in an explanation, though it does seem odd and not sure I can, but I'll try!

For the longest time I wasn't really interested in politics, especially American politics. I used to turn off the TV and the news when it came it on. Now that I'm older, I'm still more interested in the academic side than the particulars of national politics, though I'm obviously interested in both.When I do watch, I generally pay more attention to local, and Teddy's not local. You'd still probably catch me reading a work by William Graham Sumner if I wanted to learn about American politics or something rather than watching CNN. It's just my approach, but it clearly leaves me out of the loop sometimes. I don't have time for everything. I find keeping up with what's going on locally enough of a trial with my schedule.

How'd did I miss that little detail? God only knows......

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 1:45 PM

I'll pass on the general inclination to shred people one disagrees with and invoke Thumper's Law on Lindsay Graham.

ravensclaw
Ravensclaw  (Level: 43.0 - Posts: 158)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 2:02 PM

Smoke, good political discussion/debate begins and ends with "intellectual honesty". To say "The "free-speech advocates around here are right-leaning. Left-leaners understand the concept of house rules" is not only dishonest but borderline bizarre.

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 2:24 PM

I think "liberal" and "conservative" are totally obsolete.

Domestically, I think politics boils down to "big government" and "small government". It follows that big government means more taxes, ergo more taxes on the people that can pay them ergo the middle class and up plus corporations. For the purposes of simplicity, small government means the opposite.

Small government is heartless, big government is the Nanny State.

In foreign affairs, it is murkier. Militarily, liberal may generally mean dove, and conservative might mean hawk. But true conservatives are non-interventionists -- let the rest of the world clean up their own mess. Whereas many liberals feel that the US should come to the rescue all over, whether it much effects our economic interests or not -- Ethiopia, Kosovo, etc.

Personally, I'm a small government hawk.






smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 3:06 PM

I'm sorry you feel that way, RC. You're not the first to here to call me dishonest, but bizarre is at least novel.

There may have been a bit of rhetorical license, but some of the more regular posters here may have recognized that I was not-quite-jokingly referring to the perhaps local oddity, that most of the people who cry "censorship" on these boards when the smackdowns are deleted are likely to be conservative rather than liberal. Not ironclad, but generally speaking.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 3:18 PM

"I think "liberal" and "conservative" are totally obsolete."

I don't think you're right (my pastor agrees with you btw).....I could be wrong.......but wondering why you think that. Thanx.

ravensclaw
Ravensclaw  (Level: 43.0 - Posts: 158)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 4:07 PM

Short and Sweet... as this is semi off-target

That was much better Smoke... Made your point and maintained the high ground. I need to
clarify my "dishonest" remark, it was in reference to your comment and not you personally.
I should have better defined that, I didn't - my bad.

My promise: "I shall never post before my 1st cup of coffee!"


smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 5:11 PM

No harm, we're good.

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 6:19 PM

Get a room, you two. This is supposed to be a political thread.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 6:20 PM



papajensai
Papajensai  (Level: 193.1 - Posts: 1025)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 6:24 PM

SO, TED KENNEDY AND MICHAEL JACKSON COME BEFORE ST. PETER and Pete says 'Come on in and I'll show you to your new heavenly homes.' They all get in one of those double golf carts and go zooming up the gold-paved road, past a number of nice places, some bigger than others and some more modest. Pete pulls over to the side of the road and points out Ted's mansion, which is a nice Tudor with a double garage in back. He indicates Michael's place across the road, a modern ranch with backyard pool and patio. They both look up the road, on an impressive hill, and see a large luxurious looking three story mansion with a five car garage, horse stables out back, helicopter landing pad on the side, and a big tie-dye flag waving from the flagpole in front. Michael and Ted both seem a little put out, and Pete asks what's wrong. Both of them are wondering why Jerry Garcia gets such a nice house, and they get such relatively modest digs. "Oh, that's not Jerry's house, you guys. That's where God lives. He's a bigass Deadhead!"

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 6:35 PM

roflmao.....

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 6:41 PM

Great one Ron!

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 6:54 PM

Excellent!

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 7:16 PM

Okay, this isn't totally original but I'll take an adaption credit.

==================================
Ted and MJ both get let into heaven. St. Peter leads Ted over to get processed. Ted looks in and sees a woman screaming in pain as angels drill holes in her shoulders to fasten wings. Then he looks the other way and hears a man screaming while holes are drilled in his head to fasten the halo.

"Jesus," said Ted."You guys aren't drilling holes in me. I do not want to go to heaven. I'll go to the other place."

"You don't want to go there," says St. Peter. "They rape and sodomize you down there."

"I don't care," says Ted. "At least I already have holes for that."

So as he is going to the line for hell, MJ is going the other way. After a few minutes, Jackson joins him in line. "Hey Ted," he says. "Hear about the sweet deal?"



bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 7:53 PM

All your credibility as an intelligent and even tempered righteous conservative just went right out the window. That is not like the last fable by Rjenson. Come on why don't you go give yourself an enema or something enjoyable.

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 8:30 PM

"""Come on why don't you go give yourself an enema or something enjoyable."""


Hahaha!

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 9:49 PM

"I think "liberal" and "conservative" are totally obsolete."

I don't think you're right (my pastor agrees with you btw).....I could be wrong.......but wondering why you think that. Thanx.




I didn't get a response....did you see my question Smaug??

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 9:50 PM

I agree liberals are obsolete.

fudypatootie
Fudypatootie  (Level: 197.2 - Posts: 1302)
Fri, 4th Sep '09 11:10 PM

"All your credibility as an intelligent and even tempered righteous conservative just went right out the window. That is not like the last fable by Rjenson. Come on why don't you go give yourself an enema or something enjoyable."

You already knew you hated and despised this thread and the attitude of those posting jokes, Why even bother showing up and posting again? We get it. You don't think it's funny. Some of us do. Deal with it.

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Sat, 5th Sep '09 12:17 AM

"""I didn't get a response....did you see my question Smaug??"""


Yes.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sat, 5th Sep '09 12:47 AM

Oh, well are chat forums any different than the rest of the world? I'm asking because I don't know.....if not that would ordinarily just be considered rude....

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Sat, 5th Sep '09 6:34 AM

Deal with this fudy, I don't think some of you are funny, just obnoxious and determined to be so.

lodi
Lodi  (Level: 98.7 - Posts: 2144)
Sat, 5th Sep '09 12:03 PM

Bobo, you are hilarious!

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Sat, 5th Sep '09 12:40 PM

Bobo, you can sure stay on message, but it seems you only have one.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Sat, 5th Sep '09 9:20 PM

And you are a multi faceted individual LOL. Lodi you are a hoot as well.


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