You are not signed in (Login or Join Free)   |   Help
Sploofus Trivia
Trivia GamesCommunityLeaderboardsTournaments
MySploofus
You are here:  Home  >>  Chat Forums  >>  The Salty Dog  >>  View Chat Message

View Chat Message



Pages:  1    


cujgie
Cujgie  (Level: 173.8 - Posts: 754)
Mon, 7th Sep '09 9:10 PM

HOW U.S. EDUCATION CAN BE IMPROVED

Name one area needing improvement and how it can be improved.

Handwriting. Bring back the Palmer Method.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Mon, 7th Sep '09 9:16 PM

Is the Palmer method where we had to do spirals in handwriting class? Yeah a lot of these kids have terrible hand writing I guess it is a by gone skill. I always got A's in penmanship. I enjoyed it many people don't.

lodi
Lodi  (Level: 98.8 - Posts: 2144)
Mon, 7th Sep '09 9:48 PM

Grammar, spelling, and punctuation.

lynnm
Lynnm  (Level: 226.7 - Posts: 1953)
Mon, 7th Sep '09 9:52 PM

Emphasis on learning rather than memorizing.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Mon, 7th Sep '09 9:59 PM

Emphasis on learning the basics - what they think about things rather than how they feel about things.

Go back to level learning - put advanced kids together so they can flourish and accomplish all they want. Put kids who need extra help together in smaller classes where they can get specialized help where they need it.

(Teachers must teach 3 lessons in the time of 1 for all levels of kids at the same time - and lesson plans for all 3 levels. So nobody learns and nobody soars! And the frustrated who don't get enough help because it's just impossible to do - drop out!)

bigbird
Bigbird  (Level: 239.6 - Posts: 3302)
Mon, 7th Sep '09 10:08 PM

Smaller class size.

And stop testing these poor kids to within an inch of their lives. In NY, there are so many standardized tests, that this is all the kids do. And all the teachers do is test prep.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Mon, 7th Sep '09 10:16 PM

We do pretend TAKS testing once a month. It's out of control. And teachers stay scared to death. When the kids finish the test, then they sit all day waiting for others to finish. Silence must be all over campus.

lynnm
Lynnm  (Level: 226.7 - Posts: 1953)
Mon, 7th Sep '09 10:22 PM

I agree firmly with Big Bird re class size and testing, and I also agree that thriving students shouldn't be held back so that others can catch up.

cujgie
Cujgie  (Level: 173.8 - Posts: 754)
Mon, 7th Sep '09 10:53 PM

How to make a good outline as prep for an essay.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Tue, 8th Sep '09 2:36 AM

Restricting gun ownership. It can't be easy teaching kids that are hiding under the tables.

rowlanda
Rowlanda  (Level: 70.0 - Posts: 2856)
Tue, 8th Sep '09 2:51 AM

I agree with all the points you made JANK....

Another thing I'd like to see, is NO MORE CO-ED SENIOR SCHOOLS. They play havoc
with the girls' self-image....and I had heard it causes a lot of showing off by the boys,
who think they need to be outrageously "macho" to get the girls' attention. At that age
Sexual Socializing shouldn't be part of the Curriculum.

Don't know if it's done in the States - but in Canada when the measurement of a Teacher
came from the Test results only....they seem to have started to mark every subject
"on a curve" so it raised the scoring level for all students, and also made the teachers look
more competent. There's more to being good teacher than just stuffing material into
the student's heads. It takes ceativity, imagination and caring for each student.

Maybe all these wierd, theoretical ways of educating will become passe, as the Baby
Boomers move out of the school system altogether. Give the students a Love of Learning
for it's own sake - and a Basis of Knowledge of each subject. Then with appropriate
encouragement from Parents and Teachers, they'll find their own level and aptitudes.

1mks
1mks  (Level: 211.2 - Posts: 5886)
Wed, 9th Sep '09 3:24 PM

In Texas they are teaching to that damn test. Geography? No Spelling? No Grammar? No
Now some of that is incorporated into the curriculum but certainly not as it should be. You can honestly ask the children (not all but some) what state they live in and they say Dallas. Teaching is no longer fun. Every teacher in our school district is supposed to be on the same page on the same day. They have benchmark tests starting the first week of school. Teachers have had their planning time taken away because they are always in meetings telling the powers that be how they are implementing their plans and exactly which page they are on. "no child left behind" is a joke. There WILL be children left behind.....we have crack babies that are supposed to be able to pass that silly test. What a joke! I don't have answers and I am very worried about our future generation because they are NOT getting a well rounded education. It is chosen by those wonderful people that have never even set foot in a classroom and don't know the first thing about teaching. How stupid is that? My daughter has taught for close to 20 years and she is going home in tears this year. Her students pass the almighty test every year.......she happens to be a very good teacher and is very dedicated but she is burning out quickly. The "good" teachers are leaving education like crazy and are being replaced by buffoons. We had a 1st grade teacher last year that frigging FORGOT to take grades the first 6 weeks. Was she fired? Of course not. I'm sorry, I did not mean to get this wound up. I normally try to stay off the chat boards because I become angry and that is not the thing to do here because someone will jump you for sure. Now, before I start getting disparaging messages.......let me say again.....I don't have answers AND I am NOT saying that it is this way nationwide. I just know that some changes need to be made. Thanks for letting me vent. I am so very happy that I have retired but I still feel passionately about it.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21604)
Wed, 9th Sep '09 3:48 PM

Detroit did the same, Marsha, to make the school system look good.. It you are going to use test scores to measure achuevement you better figure out who the nonpolitical entity will be that will administer the tests. Know the emphasis now is making it the teachers who don't teach. There are and we had plenty of those -unioiztion and tenure a part of the problem. The biggest one was kids who were not trained at home to behave. If you look at the Japanese they start young teaching.manners. When kids begin with that basic one might be able to teach reading and math and language skills The culture that hugely rewards drug runners, pimps, and prostitutes as opposed to a grocery store clerk made it difficult to make those kids see the reason no matter how creative the teacher might be a reason to learn any of those things. Done with my rant for now LOL

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Wed, 9th Sep '09 4:26 PM

Employ Teacher Performance Measurement.

Eliminate Tenure.

Introduce Merit Pay for Teachers Who Excel.

Introduce Termination For Teachers Who Are Sub Standard and Fail to Improve.

Pay by job rather than time served. The grumpy 64 year old guy arranging dodgeball games shouldn't be pulling down $100k while the bright-eyed energetic 35 year old special ed or physics teacher has to leave their $42k job and go to the private sector in order to feed her kids.

Want to get ticked off about education? Go on a BOE and get involved with union salary negotiations. Value has to start with finances.



caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21604)
Wed, 9th Sep '09 4:51 PM

Smaug, I am for teacher accountabily or measure of performance or whatever name you want to give it. How would you measure it/? That seems to be the issue I have with it. Unless you go by standardized test results which then would have to be addministered by someone unbiased it means nothing. Teacher-many-teach the tests and give kids the answers.

I can definitely seethe argument for eliminating tenure as many gert lazy. However, when teachers were plentiful DPS hired and then fired before they got the time in to be considered permanent.

Do you measure the teachers who teach in the ghettos by the same standard you do those in the #%),00+home neighborhoods where the parents value education.

How would you deal with the screams of racial bias if a minority techer got fired or a minorityS) students did not preform?

I was a union member and in Detroit it was ot an option I had. The union did nothing more for me who worked very hard than the guy in the room next dor who sat with feet on desk wih a huge paddle with drilled holes in his hand. I am under no illusion, hoewever, that DPS would have given me enough to support myself and my 3 kids without that union. Detroit was always broke as tax paying people and businees moved out long ago.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21604)
Wed, 9th Sep '09 4:53 PM

LAWD my typing is truly pititful

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Wed, 9th Sep '09 4:55 PM

Marsha - how dare you tell the truth like that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Bless Texas School Board's heart(s). Every year the score on the test must be incrementally higher. Talk about a fairy tale. The state literally set a date soon where 100% of all students are expected to pass the big state test - no matter how mentally challenged, no matter if their parents give a hoot or get them to school half the time, whether they are able to study since they take care of their brothers and sisters while any parental authority is out who knows where, whether they speak/read English, whether they're testing under the influence of drugs, whether they hate tests and just color in whatever circle to finish and go to sleep.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Wed, 9th Sep '09 4:56 PM

(Marsha - I was trying to get the jump on jumping on you!! I just forgot the )

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21604)
Wed, 9th Sep '09 5:05 PM

Smaug, when you can figure out who and how teacher performance can be FAIRLY judged, you have BINGO. It should tell us something when we just got the first Supreme that calls herself "an affirmative action baby".

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Wed, 9th Sep '09 5:12 PM

Every single corporate employee who ever had to meet a goal or answer to metric measurements has the same gripe about their fairness. The only sin worse than unfair measurement is no attempt to measure.

In the business world, if you can't measure someone's value, the strong suspicion is they have no value.

And what more measurable job could you have than a teacher? The kids take constant tests!

Have test scores, peer reviews, parent reviews, kid reviews, weight their educational level and training, factor in extracurricular and time spent in the building, the number of kids they handle...their are plenty of metrics. Change it as you learn. Have an appeals board. Whatever.

Anything is better than paying the fifth year star QB half of what you pay the mediocre 15th year backup punter. Who has tenure.

And state tests are a joke. You have 97 percent of kids passing a standardized test and 80 percent couldn't find France on a map or tell you their from there from they're. I'm no expert, but I think the trick would be to make the tests more wide ranging and more of a mystery.






caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21604)
Wed, 9th Sep '09 5:47 PM

You are correct abot state or nationalized tests being a joke

m48ortal
M48ortal  (Level: 251.5 - Posts: 3742)
Wed, 9th Sep '09 8:12 PM

I don't claim to have answers, but I have 36 years in the field so far, and students who still hug me when I meet them years later.

Smaug makes some good points when you dig past the anti-union rhetoric. Caramel1 hit the nail on the head with her rebuttal. I'd like to get the two of you on a panel with some fair-minded parents and experienced teachers, and let you develop some suggestions.

If every state develops its own test and the feds create another one, we will be spending more time testing than teaching. My state's school year is 185 days, minus holidays. Three weeks are spent on the assessment test. The week before is review week. The week of the test is only testing and make-up testing. The week after is "Yay! You did such a great job that the principal will have his head shaved in an assembly, the counselor will kiss a pig, and the students will go bowling and see a movie as a reward. The rest of the year is wasted because the students (and some faculty) take the attitude "If it were important, we'd have studied it before the Test, not now. (I always told my students, "This is for next year's test."

My suggestions:
Hire the best teachers you can find, give them the resources they need, and GET OUT OF THE WAY. One superintendent told me, " I'm surrounded by incompetents." I asked him who hired them.

Give the faculty time to teach. There are too many interruptions for things that do not educate or motivate. One principal dropped a four-inch stack of forms on my desk and told me the deadline to have them filled out "to show my teaching philosophy and what I was teaching." I invited him to attend my classes while his secretary filled out the forms.

Drop the current tests and use the savings to pay for each student to take the SAT/ACT on their own time (Saturdays).

Replace final exams with a test which can be scored quickly scored. Failure means summer school with small classes and individual instruction, or as close as possible. Summer school means qualified teachers, not assistant coaches for whom attendance means an easy passing grade.

Most high school math teachers should be teaching at the middle school level. Most middle school math teachers would be better at the elementary level. Most elementary math teachers are there because the position they really wanted to teach was already taken.

When legislatures mandate higher level classes for all graduates (Our state requires all students to pass Algebra I & II and geometry), the drop-out rate among the slower students increases, and the ACT scores of the top students goes down. Any such regulation must also include provisions for extra tutoring for those who struggle, smaller class sizes (or *Gasp* 'ability grouping), and resources for additional materials needed to teach such diverse abilities. In our state the top students fled to "magnet schools" where available, while many parents just withdrew their children and claimed to be home-schooling them.

And let me add this final warning to what Linda listed: When too much emphasis is placed on merit pay, the cooperation between teachers often decreases, because it becomes an attitude of why should I help you look good when I can look better by comparison. We had a system where "rewards" were paid to schools which did well on the standardized test. The school I taught at scored a baseline of 42 the first year and a rival school scored a 9. The next year we scored a 45 and they scored a 13. They got financial rewards, we didn't. My school did get rewards for the year after I retired. The students I had taught were the ones who raised the scores. The faculty voted to divide the reward money among those who were employed the year of the test. The man who replaced me was not rehired because of parent complaints and the fact that he knocked up a senior girl. But he gor a share of the rewards.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Wed, 9th Sep '09 8:25 PM

I remember hearing of one school that won some kind of merit award for the testing improvement of the year before. By the time the money was divided, nobody was speaking to anybody.

And the money ended up being about $1,000 per teacher for the year - after hours and hours and HOURS of extra tutoring time - it wasn't anywhere near as high as minimum wage. But the kids did test higher. How do you assess the worth of such an experiment?

m48ortal
M48ortal  (Level: 251.5 - Posts: 3742)
Wed, 9th Sep '09 8:44 PM

Hire retired teachers to tutor those who fall behind. I retired in 2001, and now teach GED students for a fraction of my final year's salary, but they let me teach instead of filling out forms. Most days I have a waiting list of students needing help in math. Four or five days a year I do training clinics for my fellow adult education faculty, since most of them have never taught math.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Wed, 9th Sep '09 9:02 PM

My daughter taught Kindergarden for 2 years in the most impoverished school in Mecklenberg County, that is in Charlotte, NC.
She came home in tears numerous times because she could not make her students learn. She had numerous behavior problems that caused disruptions in class and teaching. She had to deal with massive social problems at home and parents who didn't care because of dysfunctional family life. My daughter is caucasian her class 70 percent african american, 30 percent latino. Her school was a focus school which means majority of children at or below poverty level and test scores. She was laid off at the end of this school year and she is glad. This was her chosen profession and now she doesn't know whether she wants to teach again. She is thinking of going back to school for something else. She was burned out and discouraged by the system after only 2 years. Her administrators were all african american as well. I mention this because I think it was a factor in the layoffs and in the overall system. One of her students had to be removed after he grabbed some scissors off her desk threatening himself or others, he spent some time on a psych ward, and this is a 6 year old. I blame the parents as well, some of them would come to school and say my momma is in jail. The children would talk in sexual innuendo way beyond there years. Just a shame. I don't know the answer but I don't want my daughter to teach in that district again. I hope they don't call her back.

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Wed, 9th Sep '09 10:50 PM

I mentioned above I was on two local town BOEs. Where they exist, they are a huge part of the problem.

We have nine BOE members who decide how to spend the majority of the money that leads to our crushing tax burden in NJ.

All nine had children in the system they oversaw. No one else cared to serve.

At one point, 6 of the 9 were not elected in a contested election. 4 of them just put their names in and no one else ran. Two of them apply for seats when there were openings, and there were no other applicants.

Most of these parents were one issue members. Their issues: The music program was underfunded. The sports program should have professional outside coaches. There should be sidewalks leading to the elementary school. There should be a new school in a growing region (theirs) (in a district with shrinking enrollment).

Come contract time we would be sitting across from professional union negotiators with a board of, sorry to offend, blue collar workers and homemakers, not a graduate degree or even corporate experience among them. Backed by angry teachers who WOULD and DID take revenge on fiscally conservative board member's children.

If you refused to agree to contract demands, the contract went to the state, where the union was awarded the average of the surrounding town's settlement. Spot the flaw.

M4:""My suggestions: Hire the best teachers you can find, give them the resources they need, and GET OUT OF THE WAY.""

In the minds of those in the system, there are NEVER enough resources. "It's for the children" went one campaign in our town. never mind the children's college funds...

Oh, and the day their kid graduates, 90 percent of parents become sudden tax hawks.

Where I am, New Jersey, the system is beyond broken. If you put a expert team together and tried to design a mismanaged, incompetent, wasteful enterprise guaranteed to reward the mediocre and drive away the outstanding teachers, you could not have come up with a better system.





allena
Allena  (Level: 255.9 - Posts: 1392)
Wed, 9th Sep '09 11:24 PM

Convert public schools to private schools. I am pleased with Smaug's additional acumen. The NEA makes it nearly impossible to help the publicly funded schools. Vouchers helping the parents to pick their school is grand. One can learn a lot from the new superintendent in Washington D.C. where the public pays almost $15,000 per student to let them drop out at 16. The private schools in the same area spend less than $9K per student and send most to colleges. She has fired a lot of bad apples.

The issue is teacher accountability. Perhaps scheduling standardized tests like fire drills ... The teacher can't prepare them for what is unexpected. Let them test in their own manner until the Iowa test (or similar) pops up. Until then, make them teach to a curriculum that is meaningful and age specific and highly integrated with grade. Fail kids who do not pass, offer remedial and tutorial programs and get parents involved.

All of the private schools we own are taking AD, ADHD and other spectrum specific kids and getting them off medicine rather on to it. The drop back rate is a function of home environment and it is quite necessary to make the parents take an interest in homework. When they think it is the school's responsibility to do about everything, including wipe the kid's butts, then the kid is doomed. Most problems occur because the parents aren't involved.

There is a place for special ed and maybe the public system should take care in this area. It is very specific, involves high student/teacher ratios and requires the proper mixing of students. Main streaming problems means everyone learns at the pace of the slowest learner.

To remain on theme: KEEP THE PARENTS INVOLVED. Get rid of the unions and rate teachers including rewarding those that do well and firing those who are in the wrong job.


pepperdoc
Pepperdoc  (Level: 152.5 - Posts: 4286)
Thu, 10th Sep '09 8:42 AM

I do think crafting your teaching plan toward ensuring your students pass a state mandated test is part of the problem.

I hear from high school and college teachers who say the gap in how students learn and perform in high school is becoming bigger in how they are expected to learn and perform in college. For a lot of students, the first year of college can involve a do-over of what they didn't pick up in high school. Or the graduation requirements for high school didn't require a fourth year of math, and they are so rusty they have to take developmental math the freshman year of college - which does not count toward a degree but prepares them for courses that do.

When I survey employers who hire college graduates and ask them for the skills and knowledge they look for in new hires (these are technology jobs), they tell me that they can find job candidates with technical skills and knowledge but what they have trouble finding are job candidates for entry level jobs who have troubleshooting, decision-making, problem-solving and communication skills. I don't know if high school students are learning how to problem solve or to do analytical thinking when they are concentrating on passing a state test that measures pure knowledge. (I know that's a pretty broad statement, but you catch my drift.)

m48ortal
M48ortal  (Level: 251.5 - Posts: 3742)
Thu, 10th Sep '09 10:18 AM

The community college where I work with GED candidates offers almost as many non-credit 'preparatory' classes as it does credit courses. Math 055 starts out with addition and subtraction. Much of my tutoring is with these students.

Unions can cause headaches, but if it were not for unions, teachers in most states would be paid only survival wages. As it is, the year I retired, I finally made as much as my son was offered as a college graduate in computer science. As a beginning teacher, 5 years experience, I was "Rif'ed" (reduction in force). I had excellent ratings and student scores, but they needed a football coach and the one they were recruiting was also a math teacher (my field). The union saved my job, and I went on to teach 28 years in that school, win several awards, and coach the academic team to more championships than all their sports teams combined. Until we eliminate the need for employee unions, let's talk about correcting the abuses ( from BOTH sides.)

Private schools have one main advantage over public schools: The parents of every child in a private school is involved in their child's education, and cares enough to search for the best program they can find. If all public school parents had this level of desire, and channeled it into improving their child's school, we would make progress.

And now this for all our underfunded music teachers…
http://www.chron.com/apps/comics/showComick.mpl?date=20090910&name=Funky_Winkerbean


caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21604)
Thu, 10th Sep '09 10:46 AM

The eighth grade kids I taught could not read because they were a minority group and they were not allowed to be held back more than once so the second time through they knew they had ti=o do absolutely nothing. A kid has to behave before you can teach them anything. That starts in the home. On a good parent teacher event, I was luckty to get 3 parents. The kids I taught lived in mainly female headed households on generational welfare. We could not hold them after school because the police were there at dismissal and they could probablly make it home before they were beaten up for their name-brand tennis shoes. In order for teacher accountabilty to work it is necessrry to have parents who care.. Many where I taught did not other tghan to look to us to babysit. The neighborhood where I taught it was also not wise for teahers to hang around long after school hours as we had 22w stabbed and one raped ecause they stayed and did not go to the parking ot with the others . You are alll correct that teachers need to teach and private and religious schools seem to do better at that as the parents pay for them to be there-not someone else who pays taxes and they don't. TYhey also have the advantage if the kids disrupt they can sa don't let the door hit you anywhere on the way out. I know I am old but in my school days, everyone was not expected to be able to d the same things., Some are simply not college materialk and this push for "free" all the way through college will simply turn out college grads that cannot read. Harsgh I'm sure ut true!

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Thu, 10th Sep '09 12:59 PM

You sound very bitter, I can understand why. I don't understand why you stayed for so long. Now you seem to be very prejudiced against the system. I think it colors (if I may use the word) your views on many topics.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21604)
Thu, 10th Sep '09 1:06 PM

LOL I started out very idealistic and thought I could make a difference-believe I did on an individual basis. Attempts to change the system and my life experiences have made me the person I am. I see it more as realistic than bitter-but you are correct it chaps my butt when people achieve not on their merits but by quotas or somere kind of social justice agenda, or backed by a corrupt political machine

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Thu, 10th Sep '09 1:09 PM

We had a teacher we called "Little Hitler", mean ass teacher....but she made us learn and today I think of her fondly.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21604)
Thu, 10th Sep '09 1:15 PM

I was taught by Nuns- not very kind on occasion -knew exactly where the nerve was between your shoulder and head that with pinch would bring you out of your seat and to your knees. They gave me a good sound education. My parents paid for that education and did not want to hear me whine about the treatment I received.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Thu, 10th Sep '09 1:25 PM

While I don't agree with physically abusing school children, my daughter often told me "Mom, you don't know how bad I wanted to spank their butt". Of course she had 5 and 6 year olds. I know that maybe some people don't approve but her kids were "BAD". They basically made it impossible for her to teach.

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Thu, 10th Sep '09 4:39 PM

I attended a mix of public and private schools. When I was in 5th grade I switched from parochial, where we had 40 plus kids in a classroom, to public, where we had half that. I was almost two years ahead of everyone in what I had been taught.

In high school I went to a "progressive" prep school with alternative teaching methods. Every year teachers were gone. If a teacher wasn't *outstanding* they went to their long list of applicants and replaced you. And, no, they certainly weren't better compensated than the public teachers with union contracts and benefits.


Oh, and a sidenote. Next time you hear someone talk about low teacher pay smack them. The discussion isn't pay it is compensation. some teachers may be underpaid, certainly some of the entry level ones, but almost all are over compensated.

In our system, you get pensions, 100 percent healthcare (inc fam). For you and spouse, to the grave. coach a sport you get a stipend. want to get a degree? It's paid for. Get a degree? You get a bump in pay. Stay 5, 10, 15 years? Bump in salary at each milestone.

But here is the real rub. Hours worked per year. Three months off in the summer, plus spring and sometimes winter vacations, all holidays, and teacher training days (which you don't have to attend). Plus most teachers are at the door at 3:00 pm in my district.

Your average working American works 40 hour weeks, 52 weeks a year, two weeks vacation, that's 2,000 hours. Minus ten federal holidays, that's 1920 hours.

The average teacher works about 183 days (2010 NYC schedule). In our district many work 8 to 7, 7 hours a day. They took home work like graded papers....well, most private sector people to a heck of a lot of work after hours with international business, internet, blackberries, etc.

That is 1281 hours versus 1920 private sector.

You can kick those numbers all over if you are a teacher, but many private sector employees now are putting incredible hours in due to connectivity 24/7.

Compensation-wise, when you add in things like pension and incredible healthcare, the average teachers may be making another 25-30 percent in a package above their salary. I doubt the average private sector American makes 10 percent, if they are even fortunate enough to be given access to any healthcare at all.

So what does that work out to? When someone tells you poor Ms. Crabtree only makes 50k, multiply it by 1.5, then add 25-30 percent to come up with their comparative private sector package.

We had a LOT of long term employees making 100k plus packages, including janitors and elementary school gym teachers organizing dodgeball games.

THAT is where I would look to improve the value the system delivers.




bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Thu, 10th Sep '09 4:53 PM

That is in New Jersey, far from the case in North Carolina I can assure you. My daughter was a teacher, her husband's health coverage was better and he works for a telecommunications company. It varies widely from state to state, as do the working days and the amount of holdays. My daughter was rarely home before 5:00, so all things being equal is not the case.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Thu, 10th Sep '09 5:30 PM

One suggestion I have is to make the education system not just another way to contribute to the upward mobility of the very intelligent or constantly recycle the children of the middle class and above already. On two year programs for example, (and I can't say this is U.S. wide but it's been this way in every state that I've been in!) make them accessible to those who want to go to college part time, that way those who HAVE to work can finish college in something. I've lived in three states, all of them have the good paying college two year degrees accesssible only to those who can attend full time, effectively blocking a major portion of the population through "policy".

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Thu, 10th Sep '09 6:22 PM

I don't get that at all, SYL. Community colleges are all over the country, and their bread and butter are part time students.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Thu, 10th Sep '09 7:33 PM

Ah, I made a controversial statement, and no one took the bait. Waaahhh......anyways I'm talking about all kinds of programs I researched at these places over the years. I can't remember them all, but if research is required for ya I'd be more than happy to take the time to comply if you want a more comprehensive list, because I know that I could find plenty to back it up. Diesel mechanic was a full time required program in every community college I've checked so far. Nursing (and other medical programs like radiology tech, respitory therapist, etc) as well. Find me a nursing program (associates level) where you can go part time. Good Luck! The pre-requisites are open to anybody and can be done part time, but of course the program is the important part of it. I'm not saying there aren't any....I'm just saying that I haven't found any in those topics in several areas where I have lived (and these are just off the top of my head) and that it's a problem.

BTW, I know that colleges are more than that, I was being controversial on purpose. Although I think there is "some" truth in my original statement, I'm quite aware that it doesn't represent the "whole" of reality.

Another suggestion I have would be to take a more renaissance man approach in some settings in college. I worked as a nurses aide for quite some time while in college. I think the nurses could use some training in management and not just focus on the hard sciences. My psychology teacher at the University of Montana pointed out that at one time doctors tended to have a lower emotional I.Q. than even many people in the general population despite their brilliance in the physical sciences and that this tended to give others the impression that they were "cold and clinical" when relating to people. I've looked over the syllabus for nurses at two year colleges, except for a psychology class there is basically no training when it comes to management, and these people will manage other people, sometimes whole departments of people. Some of them are very good at it, and some of the others quite frankly are not.

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Thu, 10th Sep '09 8:42 PM

""""BTW, I know that colleges are more than that, I was being controversial on purpose. Although I think there is "some" truth in my original statement, I'm quite aware that it doesn't represent the "whole" of reality.""""


Oh, I get what you were doing. You were.....you.........nope, lost it....



jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Thu, 10th Sep '09 8:55 PM

It serves to remind us...don't drink and post.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Thu, 10th Sep '09 11:17 PM

Bwahahaha......that was funny.

m48ortal
M48ortal  (Level: 251.5 - Posts: 3742)
Fri, 11th Sep '09 12:29 PM

Smaug wrote: "Next time you hear someone talk about low teacher pay smack them. The discussion isn't pay it is compensation. some teachers may be underpaid, certainly some of the entry level ones, but almost all are over compensated."

OK. Now You've hit a nerve. Teachers do not go into the profession because of the pay or compensation if you prefer. I've long said that anyone who goes into teaching for the money, isn't smart enough to be a teacher. But intelligence alone does not make a great teacher; dedication does. And that doesn't mean we should stopped fighting for fair pay for all teachers.

I challenge anyone who thinks teachers are overcompensated to step into a teachers place and do their job for two weeks. Smaug, if you look like your avatar and live up to your namesake, you might last the two weeks, but will the students learn anything, and better yet, will they develop a love of learning that will allow them to continue their education on their own after they leave your class?

You act as if an increase in teachers' pay will mean that your child will have less money for college. If the teachers are successful, your children will have a better chance to earn a scholarship and skip remedial classes that cost money but don't count toward graduation. The father of one of my students sounded just like you. When his son graduated, his scholarships totaled more than the cost of his education at the college he chose, and he actually got a check from the university each semester. If I knew you personally, I would hand you $.25 for each year I taught your children. That is roughly the amount of my salary that you would have covered, and you can keep the change.

I've taught thousands of students over the years, and when I meet them now, as I did two of them yesterday, they hug me or shake my hand and introduce me as their math teacher. I used to know their names, but a stroke last year robbed me of part of that talent.

My ex-students are now doctors, pharmacists, business owners, lawyers (I'm sorry, world), dozens of dedicated teachers, a lt. governor who may soon be a senator, and many others who have a solid background in math, independent thinking skills, and, I hope, a respect for the rights and abilities of their fellow citizen. And what did I make, for all those years that I was overcompensated?




I MADE A DIFFERENCE.
Michael
or you can call me what my students called me...
Mr. C

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Fri, 11th Sep '09 12:33 PM

Take that Gandalph and shove it where the sun don't shine!!!!!!!! I just love me some Immortal!!!!!!

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Fri, 11th Sep '09 5:53 PM

Ha! Couldn't pay me enough to teach! Tough, important job.
Smaug, just curious, what kind of jobs do you think are underpaid? Surely everyone's not making too much?

oldcougar
Oldcougar  (Level: 220.4 - Posts: 1935)
Fri, 11th Sep '09 6:19 PM

Thanks Michael, I was so incensed when I saw those posts about overpaid teachers & getting rid of public schooling that I couldn't reply for fear of losing my account. I am not a teacher but I think they have one of the most important & difficult jobs on the planet. Thank you for being a good one along with many, many others Now I can get back to working on my post about a few ideas I have.

m48ortal
M48ortal  (Level: 251.5 - Posts: 3742)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 1:14 PM

Mildly related to the education dicussion:

http://news.yahoo.com/comics/family-tree

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 3:38 PM

""""""OK. Now You've hit a nerve. Teachers do not go into the profession because of the pay or compensation if you prefer. I've long said that anyone who goes into teaching for the money, isn't smart enough to be a teacher.""""

To summarize your remarks, no one does, but some do. It is the some that are the problem.

There isn't some halo that goes on someone when they join the teacher's union or get tenure. Unmotivated, burned out people are just as prevalent as in any profession I am sure. Maybe more because of the tenure system.

""""But intelligence alone does not make a great teacher; dedication does. And that doesn't mean we should stopped fighting for fair pay for all teachers."""

Even lousy teachers? Shouldn't great dedicated teachers get more?

"""""I challenge anyone who thinks teachers are overcompensated to step into a teachers place and do their job for two weeks."""

Yeah, yeah, that is the union mantra from the speaking points. So you try to be an ER nurse or corporate road warrior or a mason or a cop and see how you do, Mr. C.

""" Smaug, if you look like your avatar and live up to your namesake, you might last the two weeks, but will the students learn anything, and better yet, will they develop a love of learning that will allow them to continue their education on their own after they leave your class?""""

If I were lousy, I'd expect to get fired, if I were great, I'd expect to be rewarded. But that isn't the system, is it?

""" And what did I make, for all those years that I was overcompensated?""""

I don't know. Describe your pension and retirement healthcare benefits and salary and hours worked.

My family has many educators, and they all describe frustration at seeing mediocre peers locked into jobs, despite the lost opportunites the kids that go through their classroms might suffer. And they describe brilliant young people who leave the profession because of the inability to rapidly move up the ladder as commensurate with their superior talent and effort.

Contrary to union dogma, becoming a teacher isn't an angel getting their wings. They are human and some suck and others get lazy and burnout. But in today's benefit, retirement and pension system they become lifers, lifers with no job measurement.

Shouldn't our kids deserve the same management effort at performance excellence that Walmart gives their cashiers?



caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21604)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 4:23 PM

You are a difficult person to confront, Smaug, as you are so very inteligent.
BUT... Walmart is one company and they can set standards and reward performance within that company as any company or business can

Don't believe is is possible for some nonpolitical beauracrat-if one exists- to set standards and reward acordingly for all of public education teachers. Because of unions it is impossible for an individual teacher even a good one to negotiate their pay based on their own performance.Everyone gets it or no one does-just like the auto company line workers

If you try to use some standarized US test there will be cries that the test is racially biased before the kids even pick up a pencil

Private and religious schools usually have better performing students because usually the parents of those kids care about education. More often than not it costs the parents money not some taxpayer which many of the parents of kids who attend public schoolol are not. Also the kids because of those things usually behave better or the schoool l is free to tell tthem to hit the door. Movies like "Dangerous Minds" and "Stand and Deliver" are inspirational but most often not refective of teaching in a ghetto no matter ow creative and hard-working any teacher might be.

I will go one step further. I believe the public education system is flawed before a teacher ever gets hired or a kid attends at least in thhe US. Every kid does not have the same capabilities to learn but years ago we somehow deemed it biased to separate the kids who are not academically as able by puting them in trade classes. It is unrealistic to try as the US does to educate all youth for the same number of years in the same skills

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21604)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 4:54 PM

In a business you can reward by number of sales made, deals closed, etc. The only way to evaluate a teacher's success is to base it on the end product-the student. Some kids will succeed in spite of and others will not no matter what. Other than actually seeing a teacher with feet on desk reading the newspaper while kids copy dictionaries how can you tll the difference if you don't use the kid as the measure to determine good teachers from bad?

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 6:44 PM

Every employee in history bitches about the methodology and fairness of their evaluation metrics.

There are entire companies dedicated to making things as fair as possible. You have a running, moving index, or whatever it is called, so the results are not wild spikes year to year.

As I said, how can a reasonable person argue that the tens of thousands of tests a school gives kids are invalid measures? Why make kids take them then? The whole education system is based on grades and test. It is absolutely hysterical to me that teachers can duck their results. If all of Ms. Crabtree's students tank the algebra portion of the SATs year after year, shouldn't someone eventually notice?

If results don't matter classroom to classroom, then cap the salaries, because you obviously don't need the experienced, savvy, well trained veterans (or are they the less energetic/further removed from college/burned out ones?)

Shouldn't we want to know on a case-by-case basis? Aren't our kids important enough for that?


caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21604)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 7:09 PM

I don't take issue with most of what you say, Smaug. I was pretty burned out before I was finished. I do and did consider myself a good creative teacher though under often difficult circumstances. I continue to maintain that it is impoosible to educate all of a countries youth with the same goals and by the same measure of performance. Kids are not equallly intellectually endowed. Detroit for a time did what they called tracking. It was pure joy for me for the time I had one class in the top track. They did every bit as well as any kid in a suburban school. Me, the same teacher, also had a bottom track class. Those kids could not even read the questions but had been passed out of the elementary grades where reading skills are taught because Detroit's policy was no kid could fail a grade more than once. Most of them only made it to school about twice a week and were sitting out the time until they would be old enogh to legally quit. Name one country other than te US that educates all youth K-12 without testing skills to weed some out. There may be one but I don't know it.

m48ortal
M48ortal  (Level: 251.5 - Posts: 3742)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 7:20 PM

News Flash! Be on the lookout for Satan wearing ice skates. Smaug and I agree on something.

**how can a reasonable person argue that the tens of thousands of tests a school gives kids are invalid measures? Why make kids take them then? The whole education system is based on grades and test.**

I agree. But no teacher that I know of was given input into the basis of the "whole education system." It was designed by the administration and the school board. If there are lousy teachers, they were hired by this same administration and school board. Each teacher has to survive a non-tenure period, and undergo supervision and evaluation by the administration. If they successfully pass this evaluation, they are granted tenure. Tenure does not mean they cannot be fired, it just means the administration has to grant them due process and prove that they are falling short in their duties. When a bad teacher is kept on the payroll, don't go painting the teaching profession as flawed. Place the blame where it belongs - on the administration and elected school board. If you have proof, fire them. I've found that in most cases where a poor teacher is not fired, it is because they are related to someone in power.

Having said all that, I understand that New Jersey unions might be a bit more challenging than in some other areas. I have no answer for that, but the teachers are just as moch victims of any such corruption as anyone else. Do you think they celebrate the rehiring of a bad teacher? We know there are bad teachers, but it is not our job to hire and fire.

Secondly, the ACT/SAT tests are not the problem that most of us are complaining about. It is the State-made and mandated tests that really stink. Kids try on the SAT/ACT because a poor score limits their options. They have been known to deliberately tank the state tests if the results are only used to evaluate their teachers or school. My students have told me that they would target a specific subject on these tests, in order to make a teacher they disliked look bad. The tests are developed by companies (selection of these companies is subject to manipulation) and paid big bucks for their product. That same money would go a long way toward reducing class size, buying class materials (which every teacher I know did out of their own pocket, and the IRS finally recognized, thanks to union prodding), and, yes, providing teacher pay.

The system is flawed. You can either, as Smaug says, "bitch about it," or you can do something about it. Do you volunteer at a school? Do you help your child with lessons? Do you try to tear the school apart or hold it together?

I've said enough. You know where I stand.

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 7:55 PM

""""I don't take issue with most of what you say, Smaug. I was pretty burned out before I was finished."""""

Reading my post?

"""" I do and did consider myself a good creative teacher though under often difficult circumstances. I continue to maintain that it is impossible to educate all of a countries youth with the same goals and by the same measure of performance. Kids are not equallly intellectually endowed.""""

I will leave it to some education PHDs to figure out, but our school systems "Gifted and Talented" program was so insanely political that you'd have thought they were chainsawing up the howling mom's genetically inferior uterus if their precious didn't make the system.

And, as one teacher said to me one time "Putting all the dummies together and teaching them like dummies guarantees they will grow up dummies." Inelegant, yet eloquent.

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 8:05 PM

"""""Tenure does not mean they cannot be fired, it just means the administration has to grant them due process and prove that they are falling short in their duties.""""""

No, it means they don't want to start the Vietnam War with the union, spending millions and years. In the 25 years I went back in our school district history, there had been two tenured teachers fired -- for pedophilia, and I don't mean collecting stamps. I have asked many neighboring districts and been told the same.

"""Do you think they celebrate the rehiring of a bad teacher? We know there are bad teachers, but it is not our job to hire and fire.""""

Yes, I know for a fact that many teachers support a zero tolerance on firing tenured teachers. There but for the grace of god, etc.

"""""It is the State-made and mandated tests that really stink.""""""

You had me at stink. Concur. Political tool.

"""""The system is flawed. You can either, as Smaug says, "bitch about it," or you can do something about it. Do you volunteer at a school? Do you help your child with lessons? Do you try to tear the school apart or hold it together?"""""

Is this rhetorical or asked of me?


caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21604)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 8:59 PM

Speaking of Dummies the school board was electedd out of the community--talk about dumb and political in the same breath

m48ortal
M48ortal  (Level: 251.5 - Posts: 3742)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 9:07 PM

Smaug,
Let's say that it is both. You've become the face of the anti-teacher debate, although I'm fairly sure you meant to disparage only the bad seed. But then you attacked the teacher union, when you may have meant only the union representatives in your immediate area. Rhetoric has a way of painting with a broad brush, and drawing generalizations about people you do not know.

I've known some great teachers, and I've known some lousy ones, most at the university level. The worst teacher was a genius, but did not have the teaching skills of an elementary teacher. Does this mean I should degrade all professors and all geniuses? (rhetorical this time)

Socrates said something to the effect of " Let he who would move the world, first move himself."

So while my question was directed to all of my friends on Sploofus - and I hope to count you among them, even though we disagree on some points - I will ask it specifically of you. I believe that as a school volunteer, working one-on-one or in small groups, you could be a fantastic asset for any school. I know you were on a school board or two. But it appears to have been an adversarial relationship. I ask you to use your abilities to help the children, one child at a time if necessary.

Geez, I sound like Obi-Wan, "Use the force, Luke..." Truth be known, it's probably more like Yoda asking Darth Vader to come to the light side. Read all of my original post. I told you what I made, "I made a difference." I did not reach every child, but I sincerely tried.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21604)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 9:09 PM

Detroit tried it both ways. WShen they put the Dounn=mmies inwith the smart kids, teeachers hasd to teach to the lowest level in the class to hold interest so thethey diummies kind of dombrd doen everyone'

Same question, Smaug, what country attempts to educates al of its youth K-12 by the same standards without serious weeding out along the way other than the US?

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21604)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 9:43 PM

If I remember correctly, Detroit had 13 school boards one for each district each with their own riles which could be trumped ,of course, the Detroit board--idiots all

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 10:46 PM


Let's say that it is both. You've become the face of the anti-teacher debate, although I'm fairly sure you meant to disparage only the bad seed. But then you attacked the teacher union, when you may have meant only the union representatives in your immediate area. Rhetoric has a way of painting with a broad brush, and drawing generalizations about people you do not know.

No, I am anti-union and anti-mediocre, or worse, teacher. To the extent a teacher supports (certain) union policies and negotiating stances, I am against them too.

Now....the REAL problem? Not the unions, who should be pushing, that's their job. It's the politicians who cave. The rules are such that it is Bambi vs. Godzilla in every local salary negotiation....(exaggeration coming) local yahoos vs. professional negotiators, backed by political muscle.


I believe that as a school volunteer, working one-on-one or in small groups, you could be a fantastic asset for any school. I know you were on a school board or two. But it appears to have been an adversarial relationship. I ask you to use your abilities to help the children, one child at a time if necessary.

So, am I getting a tax refund, or are you laying someone off?



smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 10:49 PM



Same question, Smaug, what country attempts to educates al of its youth K-12 by the same standards without serious weeding out along the way other than the US?

I dunno....Eritrea? Benin? Not an area in which I have any knowledge.....


fudypatootie
Fudypatootie  (Level: 197.3 - Posts: 1302)
Mon, 14th Sep '09 7:14 PM

Good points have been brought up here, but it illustrates something that I've been thinking about lately in regards to education. Administrations like to address education at a national level. With Bush, we had NCLB. With Obama, we've had stimulus dollars. I think those "solutions" address problems that may not be universal. Bush obviously thought accountability was the problem, thus his plan. Obama obviously thinks lack of funds is the problem, thus his plan. It seems to me that individual schools have their own issues and no one solution can fix them all.

m48ortal
M48ortal  (Level: 251.5 - Posts: 3742)
Wed, 16th Sep '09 6:59 PM



Pages:  1    



Copyright © 2003-2016 Sploofus Holdings LLC.  All rights reserved.
Legal Notice & Privacy Statement  |  Link to Sploofus