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goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Thu, 10th Sep '09 7:54 PM

SHOULD SHE LOSE HER GOLD MEDAL?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/09/11/2682824.htm?section=world

I think it is wrong to take away her medal based on something that she cannot help.

lodi
Lodi  (Level: 98.8 - Posts: 2144)
Thu, 10th Sep '09 8:00 PM

It says she has 3 times the amount of testosterone and internal testes instead of ovaries. It doesn't say what parts she has externally. I don't know, I'm torn here. It could open up all women's events to individuals who are physically men saying "but I feel I'm a woman on the inside."

Tough call.

mplaw51
Mplaw51  (Level: 179.8 - Posts: 1582)
Thu, 10th Sep '09 9:55 PM

As I understand it, this individual believes she is a woman. Did she know she was an hermaphodite? Too sad, to be tricked in this manner. Sadder still, that she has reached this age and never been told about herself.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.8 - Posts: 1745)
Thu, 10th Sep '09 10:06 PM

It reads to me like she had no idea. In physically training as an athlete a female often goes without menstrual cycles and builds muscle mass instead of breasts. It is very possible she didn't know that she was a hermaphrodite. Since it is such a rare occurrence. I am sure she had female parts on the outside or she would not have gotten this fair as a female. Tough, and no right decision, she will be the one to suffer.

tuzilla
Tuzilla  (Level: 134.2 - Posts: 3779)
Thu, 10th Sep '09 10:16 PM

I guess I will toss this to the many medical professionals in here.

Can (s)he function as a women, does (s)he have a monthly visit? Can (s)he have a child? That is a lot of testosterone. Can (s)he grow a beard? I will accept your opinions, as I certainly don't know.

I don't think she is an intentional cheat...just an anomaly. And she is certainly not a freak of medical tinkering like all of those East Germans and many or Eastern Europeans...as documented by their own records. All of them should be stripped of their medals and stricken from the record books.

She will still probably get to run in the Olympics. That smarmy French rollover artist who chairs the Olympic committee is more l likely to try to get a date that make a decision against her...witness he zeal to NOT deal with the obviously underage Chinese Olympic divers and gymnasts.

fudypatootie
Fudypatootie  (Level: 197.3 - Posts: 1302)
Thu, 10th Sep '09 11:41 PM

As sad as this situation is for her, I don't think it would be fair for her to continue to be allowed to race against other women as it's not fair to them. Obviously she, her family, and her trainers had no idea what was going on, but now that the truth is out, appropriate action should be taken. I don't believe her medal(s) should be taken, but I also don't think she should be able to gain more. I know it's unfair to her, but which is more fair, being fair to one person or fair to a larger group (all her competitors). I sure as heck don't want to race a man. I can barely keep up with the women.

lodi
Lodi  (Level: 98.8 - Posts: 2144)
Fri, 11th Sep '09 12:20 AM

They said she had no ovaries, but they didn't mention if she had a uterus and all the other associated parts. I don't think you can menstruate without ovaries as the release of the egg from the ovaries is what starts the whole process. Right?

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Fri, 11th Sep '09 3:47 AM

As i understand it her/ his medal is safe. I see a girl / boy who has been used, probably by her family as much as the SA athletics body. She/he can't be allowed to race against females, there will be little joy for anyone here. This was ticket out of starvation and drudgery that some people just could not resist.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Fri, 11th Sep '09 3:59 AM

I started a similar thread about Semya a couple of weeks apparently no was interested.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1207739/Caster-Semenya-defies-gender-row-gold-800m.html

If her external genitalia is feminine and her birth certificate says she is a woman, of course she deserves what she won. It was really was cruel to let the world know these things about which she obviously didn't know herself.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 11th Sep '09 7:54 AM

Judy, I agree with you. I think she should keep the medal she won, but it would not be fair to the larger group if she went on to compete. .



bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Fri, 11th Sep '09 12:08 PM

Goddess

If she has feminine external genitalia, don't you think she should continue? She has lived as a female all of her life.

goddess28
Goddess28  (Level: 92.6 - Posts: 5236)
Fri, 11th Sep '09 12:37 PM

If she has a physical advantage then I don't think she should compete with those who don't have that same advantage. But the medal she won before it was discovered should remain hers as no one, not even she had any idea. Apparently it became obvious during the games that she had a distinct advantage or it would never have been an issue.

asor
Asor  (Level: 156.0 - Posts: 589)
Fri, 11th Sep '09 9:09 PM

I can't imagine how devastating this must be for the poor woman. So many people spoke about her masculine dress, lack of makeup (uh oh, am I a hermaphrodite?), etc. that I wonder whether she has always identified as a male deep down (despite "knowing" she was female). If she has, it would be nice to think this might give her the chance to segue over to the male side.

It would have been my preference that none of this had even been open to the public. However, now that the news is out, I'd like to think it might prove helpful/comforting to others in her position. What a difficult hand to be dealt.

fudypatootie
Fudypatootie  (Level: 197.3 - Posts: 1302)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 12:38 AM

Since testosterone, which she has 3 times the amount normal for a woman, has anabolic effects, that doesn't seem like it would be much different than allowing a person to take anabolic steroids. Since it creates more muscle mass, she has a distinct advantage over other women, regardless of her external genitalia.

kaufman
Kaufman  (Level: 257.2 - Posts: 3936)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 9:08 AM

Flip it over. Maybe anabolics shouldn't be so politically incorrect and illegal ...

fudypatootie
Fudypatootie  (Level: 197.3 - Posts: 1302)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 2:07 PM

That may be a conversation for another time, but this woman is not completely a woman and it simply is not fair to her 100% female competitors for her to get to compete.

kaufman
Kaufman  (Level: 257.2 - Posts: 3936)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 2:11 PM

Is it fair to her to make her compete with true men? Is it fair to her if they say, there is no place for you to compete? Is it fair to create a hermaphrodites' division? (And for that matter, would they all be on equal footing anyway?)

fudypatootie
Fudypatootie  (Level: 197.3 - Posts: 1302)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 10:46 PM

Taking my lead from another thread and quoting Spock, "Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." Admiral James T. Kirk: "Or the one."

No, it would not be fair for her to be expected to race against men, either. I'm afraid there may be no place for her. As sad as that is for her, well....see above.

kaufman
Kaufman  (Level: 257.2 - Posts: 3936)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 11:09 PM

The needs of the many? Who is really served by this? Just the one woman who was almost good enough to win. As opposed to who is harmed by such a precedent ... anyone who is born a little different and accordingly excluded from something. Looks like you're choosing the needs of the one over the needs of the many. Or are you watching ST3 now?

fudypatootie
Fudypatootie  (Level: 197.3 - Posts: 1302)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 12:04 AM

All of her competitors are the many. Did you see her run? There was no way any of them could have caught her. If it was just because she was that much better and completely female, that would be fine. Like Usain Bolt. That man is crazy fast and no one will be catching him for a long time, but he doesn't have some biological leg up (no pun intended) on his competitors. He has very long legs and a fast turn over rate. It's different.

I'm not saying it's fair, just the fairest of a bunch of not-very-fair options.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 4:51 AM

She's been participating in sports since childhood. That could very easily be another logical reason no one could catch her.

kaufman
Kaufman  (Level: 257.2 - Posts: 3936)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 1:46 PM

All her competitors are the many? If winning is what's important, throw her out and all but one of "the many" are still losers. No better for them. If that's not what's important, what;s the harm in having her participate?

fudypatootie
Fudypatootie  (Level: 197.3 - Posts: 1302)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 7:59 PM

Right, and all the other runners started training, what, yesterday?

As to what should be done, it's all just speculation at this point because the actual results of the test haven't been released, only leaked, which may or may not be what we've heard. And as you can see, this is a very complex issue:

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2009/09/semenya-and-hermaphroditism.html



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