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ravensclaw
Ravensclaw  (Level: 43.0 - Posts: 158)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 5:06 AM

ACORN, AM I WRONG?

I'm sure the majority of us know about all the controversies surrounding the Association of
Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN). ACORN is the community-based
organization that advocates for low and moderate income families founded by Wade Rathke.

ACORN is currently under investigation in 10-14 States (depending on the source) for numerous
counts of voter fraud.

In 1999 and 2000, Dale Rathke, the brother of ACORN's founder Wade Rathke, embezzled
almost 1 million dollars of ACORN funds.

Today, the Census Bureau drops ACORN from it's 2010 census drive as a result of the corrupt
and highly immoral actions of their Baltimore and Washington, DC chapters. No need to detail,
as I'm sure we've all seen the video(s).

As ACORN has received $53 million (hard earned) American taxpayer dollars, with the
potential of receiving many times that through President Obama's "Stimulus Package" I feel a
complete and through Congressional investigation is warranted before any further government
subsidies are given to this organization. Where am I going wrong?


caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.3 - Posts: 21601)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 5:14 AM

NOPE, please see the thread I sraered on ACORN-the investigation should have been done long ago.

madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.6 - Posts: 893)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 6:52 AM

Don't expect to see any congressional investigations -- taking the census away from Acorn is a smoke screen -- nothing will change, just some faces. The corruption goes way higher than that.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.3 - Posts: 21601)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 7:53 AM

John Conyers who leads te committee that has the investigation authority was going to investigate but stopped. His only explanation being, "The powers that be" didn't want it. When we can expose the "Powers that Be' something might change radically.

ravensclaw
Ravensclaw  (Level: 43.0 - Posts: 158)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 8:24 AM

Unfortunately, you may be correct Colleen. I believe any ACORN corruption may infect one party
while infesting the other.

Linda, yes I seen and read your thread, was good until it went a little "nutty". lol

I realize most of my friends who lean right probably think as I do and would like to see an investigation
of ACORN; this thread is oriented toward my friends who may lean left. Do they also think the time
has come for a complete investigation of this community organization? and if not, why?

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 8:50 AM

Is there no one in congress of high character who can stand up for what is right and demand an investigation without caving to threat or blackmail or whatever intimidation the powers that be are throwing at them?

I'm truly ready to support throwing them all out. But we have to find some of high moral fortitude and strength of character to replace them!

Why are the good guys finishing last? I keep hearing the liberal media regurgitating that the Republicans have no one. Posh! We have many - but they don't get the big bucks backing to make it the forefront and for sure the liberal media isn't covering any of them but Palin, whom they use as a punching bag.

We need to clean House - and Senate. I don't mean that messy broom thing and sweeping stuff up under the rugs. I mean a steam cleaner that actually reaches every corner and gets rid of filth and germs. If you know what I mean.

madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.6 - Posts: 893)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 11:50 AM

John Conyers who leads te committee that has the investigation authority was going to investigate but stopped. His only explanation being, "The powers that be" didn't want it. When we can expose the "Powers that Be' something might change radically.

*****************
The messenger's initials are NP. The power that be is $oros, Unlimited. Both sides of the aisle.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 12:21 PM

I'll tell you why I don't care about it "yet".

It sounds like all the crimes are already being investigated. Instead of this being another lame smear tactic by the right, (ala Monica Lewinsky) why go that far? I'll break it down for you.

1) Voter fraud- already being investigated

2) Sounds like a few bad individuals.

You can't judge a group by a few individuals. The Rathke matter was settled to my satisfaction. The videos seem to be a similar episode....The first video was very upsetting, but I seriously doubt a whole organization of citizens in this country thinks child prostitution is okay. That's way too X-Files or farfetched to be true, it had to be a minority. It's possible that worker was in a misguided bad way just trying to not be american-centric all the time. The second video though (if the link Linda provided can be trusted) is not upsetting to me at all. I didn't watch the video, I just read Fox's transcript. In fact, though "political heads" have to roll because the repubs do have power in this country, I think the second video was more of an act of compassion than how the right usually treats these workers. The second video was probably released second for a reason. I didn't see anything about child prostitution in the second one, is that right? Just an ordinary sex worker?

I actually think that while prostitution might be a "crime", it isn't much of one and isn't really that big of a deal. I don't know what the deal is with the right hiding out in peoples bedrooms to try and expose sex crimes....but it gets old. With the exception of the child prostitution thing, there are some of us that just don't care. I would still vote for Elliot Spitzer if I thought he had good ideas.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.3 - Posts: 21601)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 12:28 PM

All things have not been investigated YET but have every hope they will be.Legal prostitution seems to work okay in some countries as it brings in tax revenue and the prostitutes are subject to regular medical checks to stem te flow of disease. Since it is the oldest profession in the world doubt anyone can stop it it is a moral choice on both sides as to whether to participate. ACORN helping them get funding for a home and employ illegal minors and showing them how to evade taxation, however, is not legal and is reprehensible

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 12:34 PM

"ACORN helping them get funding for a home and employ illegal minors and showing them how to evade taxation, however, is not legal and is reprehensible"

It seems our disagreement is in this sentence. ACORN doesn't do those things, those particular workers did those things. Besides that, the minor issue is reprehensible, but getting funding for a home is not. Prostitutes don't pay taxes anyways, or didn't you know that? Legalize it, and they will. I'm not trying to start a debate, just pointing out where some of our differences lie.


caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.3 - Posts: 21601)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 12:45 PM

Just odd same message 2 different cities purely coincidental I'm sure

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 12:53 PM

Acorn is being investigated because it is a grassroots organization which helped get out the vote for President Obama during the Campaign; which is a threat to the powers of those who want to maintain a gulf between the rich and the poor; mainly the Healthcare industry and the oil and coal companies. I maintain Glenn Beck should Investigate Dick Cheney and the wasted tax dollars on his Halliburton and Xe, formerly Blackwater, a security company which has had disgusting orgies in Afghanistan or the Unneeded Iraq War.
Glenn Beck used his platform at Fox to bring this fringe attack into the nation's mainstream news. First Glenn Beck attacked Van Jones now Acorn and Czars which, by the way, the term, Czar, is just a nickname for an appointed position in the WH started by President Nixon.
Van Jones spent the last decade as an advocate and organizer. He fought on behalf of those without power, including unarmed African Americans gunned down by police, school children without books, and the urban underclass looking for a way out. He created organizations, spoke at countless rallies, taught classes in prisons, and wrote a best selling book.
Van Jones did not play the game of Washington politics. He did not become advocate with one business card, and lobby for corporations with another. He shared the anger of those he sought to support. He did not trade away the best interests of those behind bars or in need of jobs to be polite. He used strong language in tough times. Like every single person I know, he made mistakes; but he apologized. That was not enough. Bullies never are appeased by victory. Who's next for Glenn Beck?
Where is Glenn Beck’s apology for calling President Obama a deep seated racist against White people (President Obama’s mother is White and he was raised by his White grandparents) and making a joke about poisoning House Speaker Nancy Pelosi?

When Glenn talks about socialism, Glenn Beck needs to talk about corporate socialism. There is no reason on earth for United Healthcare the parent company of the Lewin Group Big Shots to make billions of dollars off the backs of people who do not have adequate, insurance or are disqualified because of pre-existing conditions; now there is the Death panel. That is obscene

Don't get me wrong. Those who don't do their jobs properly should be fired; but to deny and portray the lower classes as corrupt and living in an obscene fashion is just as ludicrous as those gigantic salaries the rich people who care nothing about poor.

Minorities are not monolithic!


lodi
Lodi  (Level: 98.7 - Posts: 2144)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 1:11 PM

Jeremy, do you really feel that our president getting oral sex in the oval office by an intern was just a "smear tactic?" Really?

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.3 - Posts: 21601)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 1:13 PM

So far no massive investigation but we can hope. Good that the US Census Bureau has dropped them because of the foul odor though

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 1:35 PM

Lodi - the entirety of the problem is laid out in Jeremy's words: "I just don't care."

Multiply that by millions.

Where no one cares, corruption thrives.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 1:46 PM

Lodi- not really. I should be careful with my more words. I actually believe that a group of people who have very different but deeply held beliefs about ethics than my own pursued a course of action they felt strongly about. I don't per se believe it was their "intent" to just smear, I used the word smear tactic because that's the only effect it had on me. Honestly, the issue delves too deeply into gender politics for it to be an issue I'm willing to discuss on this site, or any site.

Janice- I found your comment deeply upsetting. "Where no one cares, corruption thrives". I felt I was characterized implicitly as someone who doesn't care, intentionally or not. I'll spell it out for you. It's not on a very high level on my "i care" list, therefore in light of nuclear war, starvation, violence, etc., it's not something I would place high on an importance list. I personally feel that I have just the right amount of "care", rather than "no" care, in light of the other issues in the world right now.



bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 1:53 PM

I think you forgot how many times Van Jones apologized for the words he said prior to joining the Obama administration. Obviously, it fell on death ears. At least Van Jones was working tirelessly to help the underprivileged. Glenn is advocating NO healthcare for the lesser class. Glenn Beck should apologize to the President and Nancy Pelosi.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 1:56 PM

Jones can apologize for saying it "out loud." The words, nonetheless, are who he is, and THAT is why he had to go.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 2:00 PM

Glenn Beck doesn't care about the lower classes of people or else he would tell the truth instead of lying about healthcare and his loony perceived notion of Marxism, socialism, Communism and any other "ism" he can use to demean the Obama administration.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.3 - Posts: 21601)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 2:01 PM


jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 2:03 PM

"nuclear war, starvation, violence, etc"

Jeremy, you act as though those things just fall from the sky.

Nuclear war, starvation, and violence happen BECAUSE of corruption and people not caring. They go hand in hand.

Please watch the video, Jeremy. Voice inflection will tell you a lot more than reading the transcript. You will see there was nothing happening that obviously hadn't already happened in the past - these people were totally comfortable with the underage prostitution. They were totally comfortable giving advice about how to get away with breaking the law. They clearly said they had done the same thing in the past.

As I said before, countries fall from within - because of people ignoring and not caring about corruption.

Do you actually think it's ok for the poor to be used by the corrupt? There actually are law-abiding entities out there to help the poor. Do you think ACORN officials were actually HELPING the poor by offering advice how to get illegal underage girls here to sell for prostitution?

I think it's some of the lowest scum on earth to traffic in children for sex. I don't think one can be that low just in one area, but the rest of what they do is compassionate to the poor. True compassion helps people get OUT of prostitution, not gives them ideas how to get away with it.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 2:19 PM

Director Robert M. Groves to the president read a letter from Census of ACORN said may even become a discouragement to public cooperation, negatively impacting 2010 Census efforts,"

Bertha Lewis said ACORN will take legal action against FOX News and those involved in the making for the videos. ACORN offices in San Diego, Los Angeles, Miami, New York, Philadelphia, among other places, were also targeted, she said.

"I am appalled and angry; I cannot and I will not defend the actions of the workers depicted in the video, who have since been terminated," she said

********************************************************************************************************
I couldn't agree more. That's all FOX seems to know to do is stalk people, lie, and cause divisiveness. Go Bertha, Go Bertha, Go Bertha!

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.3 - Posts: 21601)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 2:25 PM

LOL Fox did not make the videos. Bertha is going to sue them for airing them. DUH thought that is what a news station does -report news

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 2:28 PM

You are a good and faithful servant of your FOX NATION

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 2:31 PM

I forgot to mention News is one thing and lies and distortion are another. Fox does both.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 2:32 PM

Absolutely nothing could be better than ACORN suing Fox and anyone else involved in the taping.

Because THEN they have opened the door for investigation that even the "powers that be" can't stop! They are legally allowing the lawyers to subpoena all the books!

Bring on the suit! That makes it that much easier for the corruption to be outed and brought down - legally for all the United States to see.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 2:33 PM

I think it's hilarious how liberals and progressives seem to think it's a valid argument to say using the criminals' own words and actions is a distortion! hahahahaha

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.3 - Posts: 21601)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 2:43 PM

By all means go Bertha and we will open ACORN'S books Will Barrack be representing ACORN? He once did

madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.6 - Posts: 893)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 2:55 PM

Instead of this being another lame smear tactic by the right, (ala Monica Lewinsky) why go that far?

******************************************

Jeremy, who knows what direction the smear came from, but it and the stain on WJC's legacy were of his own making.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 2:58 PM

Is Legacy another word for blue dress?

madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.6 - Posts: 893)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 3:06 PM

Indeed, Felix ... yer with me

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 4:21 PM

Colleen, is it? said: "Jeremy, who knows what direction the smear came from, but it and the stain on WJC's legacy were of his own making."
(Very funny response Felix)
If you are talking about a stain on his political legacy, I disagree that there was one relating to that episode. If you are talking about a legacy relating to his personal life which matters far less imo, I agree, it was wrong to cheat on his wife. (but with a wife like that, who wouldn't?)

Janice: I'm ignoring your post. We disagree on so many things in your post, let's move on.





madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.6 - Posts: 893)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 6:52 PM

If you are talking about a stain on his political legacy, I disagree that there was one relating to that episode. If you are talking about a legacy relating to his personal life which matters far less imo, I agree, it was wrong to cheat on his wife. (but with a wife like that, who wouldn't?)

**************

We first endure, then pity, then embrace ... Alexander Pope

ravensclaw
Ravensclaw  (Level: 43.0 - Posts: 158)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 7:04 PM

Bigmama - When your 1st sentence is... "ACORN is being investigated because it is a grassroots
organization which helped get out the vote for President Obama"

My only response can be... "When they came to drag you off to the land of OZ.
Did you go "willingly" or did they have to take you "screaming and kicking"?
___________________________________________________________________________________

Jeremy,

Yes, there are numerous investigations ongoing, but... investigations being conducted by
whom? What's their political motivations? Being one who believes both political parties are
corrupt, I trust neither to give me the full details. Therefore, I would prefer open (and if possible)
televised Congressional hearings on ACORN and their activities to determine for myself.

You state that the the matter concerning Dale Rathke's embezzlement of nearly a million
dollars from ACORN was settled to your satisfaction.

Fact: Dale Rathke did embezzle nearly one million dollars.
Fact: Wade Rathke helped facilitate brother Dale Rathke's embezzlement cover-up.
This event went unreported to authorities? Why?
Fact: When the embezzlement was questioned and the threat of exposure came into play,
a mysterious "benefactor" immediately emerged from the shadows to pay restitution and
escape further investigation. Very odd to say the least, don't you think?

I'm in no way am trying to project myself as an authority on the situation and if there are
details to this Dale Rathke's embezzlement situation that you are privy to and I'm not,
please, educate me. Not only am I a willing student I learn quickly.

Now, I'm not exactly sure how to address your comment that ACORNs apparent corrupt and
illegal activities are the actions of a few bad apples. These are not isolated incidences. These
actions permeate numerous ACORN chapters throughout at least 14 states. The video's seen
in the last few days, were they just a few bad apples from only 1 ACORN chapter? Nope. Did
the 2 young reporters who broke the story of corruption in the Baltimore and Washington DC
ACORN offices hint yesterday of possibly "more to come"? Yes they did. I guess this is where
we agree to disagree.

Jeremy, you also say the the 1st video was very upsetting, how so? when in your next sentence
you excuse the behavior as being "misguided". I ask you, honestly, did she look misguided? or did
she act misguided?





smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 7:42 PM

RE: the embezzlement, you had more facts than I have.

"Now, I'm not exactly sure how to address your comment that ACORNs apparent corrupt and
illegal activities are the actions of a few bad apples. These are not isolated incidences. These
actions permeate numerous ACORN chapters throughout at least 14 states. The video's seen
in the last few days, were they just a few bad apples from only 1 ACORN chapter? Nope. Did
the 2 young reporters who broke the story of corruption in the Baltimore and Washington DC
ACORN offices hint yesterday of possibly "more to come"? Yes they did. I guess this is where
we agree to disagree."

If we were to meet minds on this issue, we would have define what in the video exactly we consider bad behavior. Child prostitution we can agree on. Linda considers offering housing and hiding a profession bad behavior. I don't.

"Jeremy, you also say the the 1st video was very upsetting, how so? when in your next sentence
you excuse the behavior as being "misguided". I ask you, honestly, did she look misguided? or did
she act misguided?"

Upsetting regarding looking the other way underage women being used as prostitutes. I was pointing out it was "possible" her intentions were good.....acorn is being characterized by the right as corrupt to the core with evil intentions. I just offered an alternative interpretation, that could've been the case. It wasn't an "excuse", good intentions or not it was wrong and needed to be dealt with, possibly harsher than it was, it was just an alternate characterization and nothing more.


smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 7:52 PM

Actually I may have read something into Linda's position, as that's not exactly what she said......I will wait for her to clarify and correct me if I am wrong.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.3 - Posts: 21601)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 7:53 PM

Perhaps I was ot clear. ACORN has control of HUD funds and that is taxpayer money. They were showing this suppposed pimp and prositute how to access those funds by lying about who would be receiving the funds. Since no actual transaction took place most likely fraud cannot be proven. These videos coupled with all of the other shady dealings by ACORN workers were enough to get the Census to drop them and hopefully a loud outcry for a Congressioal investigation.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 8:02 PM

Jeremy - they were helping them to break the law. Again, does the law not matter in your opinion?

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 8:21 PM

Laws aren't ethics. If a law gets in the way of a behavior that I would consider ethical, I will break the law in order to be ethical. If the two were one and the same, i.e. laws=ethics, I wouldn't have that conflict inside of myself. It's a conflict for me, to be sure. I'm generally more law abiding than most people I know however, despite the conflict with it.

I don't think reporting prostitutes does anything to help them or solve the problem, so I won't do it. I don't expect others to live up to standards I don't expect of myself. Besides, I believe the penalties for sex crimes in this country are draconian at times anyways, sometimes doing more harm than good.......

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 8:29 PM

Oh, sorry Jeremy. I should have been more specific. They not only were helping bring illegal aliens, supporting children for prostitution, they were also teaching how to break the law and not pay taxes.

You really do believe you are above the law. Most are not so brazen to admit it that way.

You see, Jeremy, there are ways to do both the right thing to help someone AND not break the law.

If you are not willing to put some work into making sure people are helped AND the do it legally, well...

..I guess you have a bright future in politics.

Personally, I think you've been watching too much TV.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 8:32 PM

By the way, children used in trafficking and sex slavery might really appreciate somebody turning in their slave owner/pimp and setting them free.

But that's just my opinion - obviously we disagree.

ravensclaw
Ravensclaw  (Level: 43.0 - Posts: 158)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 8:33 PM

Hi Jeremy, one of the reasons you command more respect on here than some others is your
ability to present your views in a clear and reasonable fashion while maintaining civility. A trait
that serves you well.

Speaking for myself, I have no issues with the concept of ACORN nor the original principal's
ACORN was established to represent. I do however, question whether the cause has been
consumed by the greed and corruption.

As we can agree on the principals ACORN was established to represent, and that if run by those
standards ACORN is not an evil entity, then can we also agree that it appears those standards
are not being met and may at last warrant an investigation?

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.3 - Posts: 21601)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 8:49 PM

I think the reason Jeremy commands more respect from me is I don't want to admit I aam cluelees as to much of what he says

ravensclaw
Ravensclaw  (Level: 43.0 - Posts: 158)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 8:51 PM

lol, but don't he seem nice? as compared to....

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 8:51 PM

Janice: I have no desire to be a politician. I never break the law personally, except for occasionally not wearing my seatbelt, but I do look the other way at times when others do when the crime is minor. I consider prostitution to be minor, though I don't engage in it. I don't report people who smoke marijuana, though I don't do it, and I don't report people who jaywalk. That's the way I am. I actually haven't watched TV regularly in probably nearly seven years, but good theory. In general I don't pay for it and all you will see at my house is a fuzzy screen with nothing on it.

Ravensclaw: I enjoy talking to you. You have convinced me that I need to think about the issue more, and that perhaps your view is the case. I will look into the matter further.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 8:53 PM

BTW, child prostitution is NOT minor, and it would take me no time at all to turn someone in for that.....if a woman is being beat by a pimp, I would turn her in to protect her. It's not a hard and fast rule, and relies heavily on circumstances.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 9:16 PM

Jeremy - you just seem to discuss things from fantasy rather than reality. But then again, you say so often that you're just trying to stir things up for discussion. That's a hard stance to take with people who are active and have really studied this stuff, learned a lot from experience, and can't tell when you're being serious or when you're being goofy.

ravensclaw
Ravensclaw  (Level: 43.0 - Posts: 158)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 9:20 PM

Walk proudly with open eyes Jeremy Both parties have become entities more concerned with their
own survival, than our salvation. Whats the saying? “Do not concentrate on the finger, or you will miss all
the heavenly glory". Assume nothing and question everything.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 9:21 PM

Ah, fantasy, eh? You win, a few sentences about how hard you've studied, and I'm convinced you are an authority. I'm now a conservative fundamentalist and we think exactly alike. Thank you for schooling me.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 9:22 PM

Thanks Raven, I'll do just that.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 12th Sep '09 9:25 PM

Jeremy - when you do not equate ethics with law, that's not reality that I can see. You don't leave room for both, and to me that is fantasy.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 5:58 AM

Criminal?????

He and many other participants in the protest were arrested. The district attorney later dropped the charges against Jones.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Jones#Social_and_environmental_activism




bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 7:21 AM

Ravensclaw
Bigmama - When your 1st sentence is... "ACORN is being investigated because it is a grassroots
organization which helped get out the vote for President Obama"

My only response can be... "When they came to drag you off to the land of OZ.
Did you go "willingly" or did they have to take you "screaming and kicking"?
__________________________________________________________________________

Hi Jeremy, one of the reasons you command more respect on here than some others is your
ability to present your views in a clear and reasonable fashion while maintaining civility.
***********************************************************************************
lol, but don't he seem nice? as compared to....
***********************************************************************************

I had no problem with your attacking me as I can lob quit a few myself

However, I have a problem with you not accepting ACORN, as an entity, being corrupt is not a product of a threat to corporate greed, Glenn Beck's fantasies and FOX (Faux) News' lies, and distortions.

ACORN will not be accepting tax dollars from the"Stimulus Package" as they have decided not to apply for the Stimulus Package".
FOX News continues to reverberate that lie every chance that get. It seems to be quite true, in my estimation, that the FOX (Faux) News Nation is just as guilty as you are when it comes to being antithetical. When they criticize President Obama as being a mere community organizer; yet have adopted his approach in collaboration with the Fat Cats who have no vision for change; rather to continue the status quo.

I feel qualified to say this based upon the fact the Americans who are representative of their scapegoating are the very ones who didn't, in large part, vote for the President and already have socialized medicine and don't know it. Seniors are being fed the pabulum of death panels, pulling the plug on granny, Saul Alinsky, along with a host of other deliberate lies tsk tsk .
Since the Republicans base is dwindling, then by all means the Van Jones incident, Czars, Acorn, or anything the President says or does is a threat to that sector of the Republican Party lobs.


bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 7:43 AM

http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/
Drug Makers to Back Baucus Plan With Ad Dollars

This is another situation of “blue dog or hound dogs" (the greedy ones no offense to those who accept no contributions) Democratic and Repubilcan who care nothing about the people needs. If you take for example drug companies still want to lob more greed their way; Max Baucus needs their campaign contributions just like Joe Wilson.

Max Baucus
***************************************************

Lifetime contributions from Insurance/Pharma...Sen. Max Baucus (D-MT) $1,203,205 Sen.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.3 - Posts: 21601)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 7:57 AM

Arfe you just figuring ooutyt that for the most part they are on the "take" from the top on down? replace them all unless they decide to join and root out the corruption like ACORN

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 9:57 AM

Beverly, hate to burst your bubble but conservativism is not dwindling - in fact, just the opposite:

First article is rise in number of black conservative Republicans:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-16747550.html

Next is the August 14 Gallup poll showing all states becoming more conservative (DC being the one area NOT becoming more conservative)

http://www.gallup.com/poll/122333/Political-Ideology-Conservative-Label-Prevails-South.aspx#2

So again, you're just making stuff up because you WISH it were true.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.3 - Posts: 21601)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 10:22 AM

Joe Wilson said on Fox News Sunday he will not apologize yet again as he has already done that and the TOTUS and the VP accepted. If Nancy carries out her threat and puts him in the well and reads words of rebuke, she willl be the fool but he will take it. He again said he is a civil person and respects the office of the Presidency and should not have shouteed out. He still stands by what he said though that in the current House bill because there is no enforcement-showing proof of citizenship-illegals would be covered. Seems the Senate paid attention as they are making it very clear in their bill that proof of citizenship must be shown. Obama is also now emphasizing it too but since he does not now nor never had a bill, just empty words like the rest of his campaign speeches.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 1:48 PM

"Jeremy - when you do not equate ethics with law, that's not reality that I can see. You don't leave room for both, and to me that is fantasy."

If it makes you feel better, laws CAN be ethics, even in my own opinion. Quite frankly I've never taken a class on ethics or law in college where it was claimed they were both the same. If you are going to disagree with textbooks and history, I think the burden is on you and not me to prove your case.

Here's just one example: "Being ethical is also not the same as following the law. The law often incorporates ethical standards to which most citizens subscribe. But laws, like feelings, can deviate from what is ethical. Our own pre-Civil War slavery laws and the apartheid laws of present-day South Africa are grotesquely obvious examples of laws that deviate from what is ethical."

http://www.scu.edu/ethics/practicing/decision/whatisethics.html

I'll give you another example. Many Christians believe it is "unethical" to get drunk. It is not illegal to get drunk. They don't coincide, do they? Same with abortion laws....right?

You ever seen those lists of "dumb laws" in the U.S.? I have, in the local paper. I don't know if this source can be trusted, I'm in too much of a hurry to look for something better, but here ya go: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/129589/50_states_50_ridiculous_laws.html

Really? Those are ethics?




jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 2:14 PM

You've proven the right steps in your own post.

Every law should be ethical, and if it's not, it should be changed.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 2:46 PM

Oh good, so we agree about that, but do we disagree about how to change those laws? You seem to think someone HAS to obey laws that aren't ethics, or aren't "ethics" put into practice very well, until they are changed through the political process. I just disagree about that, I think there are other ways that are just as effective. I think disobeying laws can be just as effective when the ordinary poltical process won't work.



madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.6 - Posts: 893)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 3:34 PM

"I think disobeying laws can be just as effective when the ordinary poltical process won't work."

Mr. Madoff would be very proud of you

We have correctional institutions filled to the max because people felt they were above the laws. Who decides which are just and which are not? Apartheid is an atypical example to bring into this argument.

Some people think it's OK to beat their kids, because it's nobody else's business and the state has no right to interfere into family life.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 4:03 PM

Bernie Madoff would be proud? And I had respect for you until today Colleen....oh well, with that put down that's out the window.

Who decides? Great question. So you are saying that whoever decides right now is ALWAYS right? The point is somebody is going to decide......and somebody does decide. Why should I allow their intellect to rein over my own? This could be a fun discussion, ultimately dealing with problems in philosophy especially in the realm of ethics that I would love to get into with you, but now that I've lost respect for you after a put down, I'm not sure I'll really enjoy it that much anymore.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.3 - Posts: 21601)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 4:58 PM

http://www.acornhousing.org/index.php yes, ACORN "counsels"on how to get taxpayer money-this cancer on society needs to be cut off

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 5:38 PM

Jeremy, I'm sorry you have no use for people who prove how illogical you are. There are people here from whom you might learn rather than argue.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 5:42 PM

Colleen proved how illogical I was? I'm sorry you approve of name calling.....as a fundamentalist would you like to be called Osama Bin Laden or Shelley Shannon? No, whatever your similarities there are differences as well, are there not?

I refuse to discuss anything with people who feel they must call me names. It's a below the belt tactic of control that has no place in debate.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 5:47 PM

C'mon guys, make nice or this thread is history.

madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.6 - Posts: 893)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 6:40 PM

Did I call you a name? No, I simply used your assertion that disobeying laws could be more effective than the political process as the same kind of thinking people like Madoff use in justifying their own. And then I winked. OK? You lost respect for me? Now THAT was a put-down. I don't always agree with you, but I've never put you down.

You ask why you should let someone else's intellect reign over your own? In matters of the law, it's a slippery slope to let the ego get in the way of compliance with the law -- as to whose intellect is superior, it's a subjective call. During the Seattle WTO protests, which were organized and in compliance with the law, there were those who saw an opportunity to do a great deal of damage -- people not affiliated with the protestors at all. A bunch of hooded anarchists from Portland swept through downtown with crowbars and smashed the windows of all the major department stores; that's how far 'civil disobedience' can take you. At the end of the day a bunch of troublemakers swooped down in the streets and defied the police, totally worn out by the end of the day, and forced their hand. The only way they could gain control of the streets was with tear gas. That's where that slippery slope can lead.

Finally, the law isn't just between you and those you don't want to hold reign over you. There are people who can be harmed by the disobedience of others ... do they not count?

I believe in ideals ... but we also have to keep both feet on the ground ... pragmatics matter a lot.

During the late 60's Sam Hayakawa took the helm at San Francisco State University and tried to bring the violence and other disruption under control. He asked some of the leaders how they could be pro-peace and still wage the war they were on the campus -- the answer was, 'Because WE'RE RIGHT!".

God save us all from those who think that their being 'right' exempts them from the social contract.


smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 6:58 PM

I didn't get the wink, but I was offended. Thanks for the explanation, understanding your intentions were not to call me a name, helps.

Couldn't I just as easily say, "God save us from those who make the laws?"

Look, we have to seperate the issues here.

I understand we give up certain things to gain the advantages of being in a society, and I have given up those things. I do not use prostitutes, which is where the original discussion came into play. However, given that I believe that the crime is OVERLY punished, and the system will not help the parties involved much if at all, I will not turn them in either.

If you stole my pen, I wouldn't turn you in to have them chop off your hands. I believe the punishment does not fit the crime at all.

Civil disobedience was a tangent I got off to with somebody, though quite frankly I have no problems with it. Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. used the weapon "right". LIKE ANYTHING ELSE IN LIFE, when used appropriately it is a great tool. Your anarchist example is one where the tool was used wrong. I cannot believe that bananas should be outlawed based simply off the fact that I heard someone was robbed with one. (hehe)

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 7:04 PM

BTW, my statement that I lost respect for you was contingent upon whether or not you were trying to call me a name. Given that you were not, all is well (whether you care about that or not!)

madamec8
Madamec8  (Level: 82.6 - Posts: 893)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 11:03 PM

BTW, my statement that I lost respect for you was contingent upon whether or not you were trying to call me a name. Given that you were not, all is well (whether you care about that or not!)
*********

Thank you, I do care.



caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.3 - Posts: 21601)
Mon, 14th Sep '09 11:15 AM

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,549903,00.html how many more times does something have to be proven before this cancer is removed?

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.3 - Posts: 21601)
Mon, 14th Sep '09 7:48 PM

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/14/senate-votes-cut-acorn-housing-funding/ Now we just have to watch for a rename favorite tactic. This is a huge plus though

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Tue, 15th Sep '09 2:41 AM

Amazing, the real Prostitute there is Fox News and its nation.

Beck himself has devoted segments to tenuous or tangential "connections" between ACORN and the following people and groups: AmeriCorps, AARP, Judge Sonia Sotomayor, PRLDEF, and SEIU. Beck has also fear mongered about ACORN while attacking President Obama and his policies.
http://mediamatters.org/research/200909100058

According to your link it really doesn’t matter too much because….
On Monday, Bertha Lewis called the Senate's vote a "rare and politically convenient step" but noted that the group gets most of its funding from "its members and other supporters, so the decision will have little impact on overall operations."
The Senate measure is scheduled to pass this week and must be reconciled with a companion House measure that passed in July before becoming law.

INVESTIGATE DICK CHENEY AND GEORGE WHO SPENT OUR TAX DOLLARS ON A LIE

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.3 - Posts: 21601)
Tue, 15th Sep '09 4:17 AM

Something big coming out later today. NY is investigating them-same unit that investigates the Mafia. . Think the next move will be to freeze all of ACORN's Funds

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.3 - Posts: 21601)
Tue, 15th Sep '09 6:04 PM


caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.3 - Posts: 21601)
Sun, 20th Sep '09 5:18 PM

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/20/acorn-ceo-outraged-behavior-employees-prostitute-tapes/ Bertha backtracked bigtime on Fox news Sunday. No lawsuit against the film makerrs nor Flox. In fact she said she was thankful that they had exposed the dishonest workers. She promised when pressed that she would appoint an "independent" auditor no later than Monday-had said before it would be last Friday. I give Bertha credit though for appearing on Fox. Of course she made ACORN out some kind of victim and once again would not agree to opening the books for public viewing. The tentacles of ACORN and other groups are long and interwoven. If they cannot salvage ACORN they will do the same thing with a rename and new logo on the shirts.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 20th Sep '09 5:45 PM

Rats! Of course she'd say no suit. Now will we ever get an audit of all that taxpayer money??

I was looking forward to it! I hope somebody somewhere gets an audit - maybe sues THEM. Something has to change. And I don't mean just a few employees.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.3 - Posts: 21601)
Mon, 21st Sep '09 4:43 PM

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204488304574427041636360388.html on his Sunday marathon he was only askked about ACORN once. real Ho hum haven't paid much attention to the story-RIGHT

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.3 - Posts: 21601)
Mon, 21st Sep '09 5:42 PM

http://beltwayblips.dailyradar.com/video/youtube-obama-s-speech-to-acorn-community-organizers/ nope paid no attention to ACORN

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cqN4NIEtOY it is a shame we didn't pay attention to what he said-look at the radicals who surround him http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cqN4NIEtOY

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.3 - Posts: 21601)
Mon, 21st Sep '09 5:53 PM

The only thing he can say is Bush had czars too. Well, he did, but take the time and Google some of these people and take a look at who is advising oama whatevefr he calls them http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/29391/

collioure
Collioure  (Level: 104.9 - Posts: 9952)
Mon, 21st Sep '09 6:19 PM

Well, some of those czars are really first-rate!

For the life of me I just don't understand the rationale for these special positions.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.3 - Posts: 21601)
Mon, 21st Sep '09 6:53 PM

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/21/justice-department-inspector-general-launches-internal-acorn-probe/ Guess they are not waiting for Bertha to appoint an independent investigator which she hasn't yet

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.3 - Posts: 21601)
Mon, 28th Sep '09 1:03 PM

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/28/bank-america-pulls-acorn-work/ not looking good for ACORN. Another video to be released Tuesday I believe from a city where ACORN had said they had thrown these film makers out. Did NOT happen

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.4 - Posts: 1745)
Mon, 28th Sep '09 1:37 PM

I can't believe you have nothing better to do than go back to an old toxic thread and bring it back to the top. Enough with ACORN already where were you when Enron was happening? Geeeeshh woman find another cause.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.3 - Posts: 21601)
Mon, 28th Sep '09 2:43 PM

Go away!!


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