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felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 10:03 AM

BY THE WAY IF YOU ARE....................

.................going to worship today, please remember to sincerely pray for Our Country. If you pray and can't attend, please also pray for this Nation.


Have a Great Sunday,

Felix



clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 10:17 AM

How does this work exactly ? Does "god" have a count of heads and decide how powerful the hurricanes are going to be ? I never really did understand the format.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 10:22 AM

I'll pray for you as well as making light of God is not a good thing.

foogs
Foogs  (Level: 267.9 - Posts: 848)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 10:24 AM

in_cred_u_lous__[in-krej-uh-luhs]

-adjective
1. not credulous; disinclined or indisposed to believe; skeptical.
2. indicating or showing unbelief: an incredulous smile.


clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 10:32 AM

Felix
I'll pray for you as well as making light of God is not a good thing.
.......Thanks, but no thanks. I haven't met a figment of the imagination that i can't handle myself yet.


sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 10:33 AM

If there is a god, I would think he/she/it can take a joke.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 10:39 AM

Thanks for hijacking a positive thought thread.

gypsylady
Gypsylady  (Level: 142.8 - Posts: 6058)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 10:39 AM

May God bless America, and your boys, Felix, who serve this country!

I hope you have a great day also!

Marilyn...

foogs
Foogs  (Level: 267.9 - Posts: 848)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 10:40 AM

You're welcome.

I WILL pray for you, but in my own way, thank you very much.

Salaam.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 10:44 AM

Why would "god" bless the US above any other nation ?

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 10:47 AM

Because we have (as a Nation ) strayed so far his blessings have been limited. You're kind of a bore. Please terrorize another thread. Have a great day.

garrybl
Garrybl  (Level: 280.2 - Posts: 6644)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 10:48 AM

Just my two cents.

I'm not in favor of criticizing other people's religious belief systems, in abstract, no matter how much I or you disagree with them.

I am equally not in favor of posting religious statements asking people to pray for 'America'/'England ...or the Buffalo Bills.... what good can it do except stir up atheist angst? Or worse..upset Jet Nation.

I CAN understand you asking me to pray for Mr X; not that I would, but if it might help you feel better so be it.

But really, asking people to get involved in religious debates on this site is if anything more divisive than asking them to get involved in political debates --isn't it?

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 10:50 AM

There is hope for Our Country, the Bills on the other hand................

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 10:51 AM

Felix
Because we have (as a Nation ) strayed so far his blessings have been limited. You're kind of a bore. Please terrorize another thread. Have a great day.
.............OK. Game, set and match to me i think. Y'all have a nice day too.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 10:54 AM

You are definitely the wiener in this match. You also have a Blessed Day!

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 10:55 AM

Ooops! I meant to say winner. My Bad. Go Figure. Whatever. So What? Big Deal. 3 Apples each day keeps three doctors away.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 10:59 AM

China's economy is thriving. God's blessing?

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 11:00 AM

Who else do you know that can give out Blessings? Have you been to China?

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 11:03 AM

Who does he/she/it like for Indy vs Jacksonville. Hurry, game starts at 1300 EST.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 11:04 AM

Indy to beat the spread.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 11:06 AM

Blessed be.

didb72
Didb72  (Level: 210.1 - Posts: 243)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 11:28 AM

Clevercloggs says Why would "god" bless the US above any other nation ?

Because he does his shoppings at Wallmart (not asda), drives a chrysler (not a rover), has a mortgage with freddie mac (not RBS) and he speaks american (not english).
"In god we trust" sounds better than "god saves the queen"

Hope nobody will take offense of my post, Barry puts things down better than me anyway.
Cheers.



foogs
Foogs  (Level: 267.9 - Posts: 848)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 11:32 AM


jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 11:56 AM

God's blessings aren't a win/lose situation. He is limitless - He doesn't take blessings from one country to give to another.

Good grief - it's not a slap toward any other country or person to pray for blessings for our country. And God knows, we have some major problems in this country and our leaders are doing some major work for the people.

See, Christians actually believe God has a will for our lives, for others' lives, for the country's life. And we pray to be in God's will. We pray that the hearts of our leaders will be turned toward righteousness and honesty to lead the country into God's will.

And anyway, by praying for our country and our leaders, we're only being obedient to God - we are commanded to pray for our leaders:

1 Timothy 2:1-2 says "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty."

And the verse that REALLY promises hope and change for the good:

2nd Chronicles 7:14: "If my people who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and forgive their sin and heal their land."

It doesn't say everyone has to do it for God to heal the land - it only says God's people need to do it for God to heal the land - for everyone!


garrybl
Garrybl  (Level: 280.2 - Posts: 6644)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 12:46 PM

See that's what I mean.
When you post like that Jank you make me think you're ASKING clevercloggs to come back and slam you and then it all starts again.

However strong your religious beliefs are you KNOW you won't convert an atheist on this site...so why stir it up by posting something that acts like a red rag to a bull?

Moderation and restraint are also biblical virtues; I wish I could follow them myself but I can't.
I'm not questioning the strength of your convictions; I am asking you not to post them and offend other people just as their posting statements of atheism etc will offend you.

Do it on the friends group do it in pms don't do it here. Please.

Barry






jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 1:17 PM

Gracious. I could have sworn I was explaining and giving a visual, rather than insisting.

If I'm not mistaken, my post is much more in the spirit of what Felix posted in this thread HE started than is yours.

Who, then, should refrain from posting?

alvandy
Alvandy  (Level: 229.7 - Posts: 7573)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 1:31 PM

Let's all have a great Sunday. The weather is beautiful in Central Pennsylvania. Nice day to walk & stop occasionally to smell the roses no matter where you are.




donden
Donden  (Level: 112.5 - Posts: 2127)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 1:32 PM

Well Jank. we know YOU won't. You seem to look for an excuse to start something.

lodi
Lodi  (Level: 98.8 - Posts: 2144)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 1:32 PM

Geez Barry, got sand in your panties today? If somebody wants to post a nice thread and its about something in which you don't believe, then stay out of the thread. I'm not religious in any way but sure thought it was a nice thread.

DUH!

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 1:35 PM

Why u pickin on Barry? Several of us have commented.

lodi
Lodi  (Level: 98.8 - Posts: 2144)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 1:39 PM

Because he's the one telling people on what they can and can't ask for prayers on the board. Self-appointed prayer police?

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 1:41 PM

Only one person in this entire thread has taken it upon himself to personally attack someone else.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 1:42 PM

Don - my response to Garry is ME starting something?

That seems like a convoluted sense of propriety.

donden
Donden  (Level: 112.5 - Posts: 2127)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 1:48 PM

Jank, using the Salty Dog as your personal pulpit is baiting in my book. And baiting is "starting" something.



caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21604)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 1:48 PM

EDITORS should not be allowed to post on threads that require an opinion other then maybe their "2 pennies worth" on a word puzzle

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 1:49 PM

Sorry, thought this was a trivia site.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 1:51 PM

Linda, I adore you, but am sick and tired of you trashing the editors, who without, this site would perish.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21604)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 1:56 PM

I like you too, Sandy, but editors should stay out of controversial threads as either of their selves. Haven't been involved in as good editor bash in a long time and as a group like and appreciate them but one in particular takes a power trip to a whole new level-call it sarcasm or like I do just outright nastiness.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 1:58 PM

why in the world would anyone volunteer to be an editor unless they could also take part as "themself"?

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 1:58 PM

I see. You can insult, but I can't defend.

And all of this in a thread started to ask people to pray, and my response was in support of Felix.

None of this had anything to do with me - but you hijacked the thread and started attacking me - not Felix for starting the thread but me for supporting Felix.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 2:04 PM

Anything to do with religion or atheism is going to be confronted. Just a fact.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 2:08 PM

Didb72
Clevercloggs says Why would "god" bless the US above any other nation ?
Because he does his shoppings at Wallmart (not asda), drives a chrysler (not a rover), has a mortgage with freddie mac (not RBS) and he speaks american (not english).
"In god we trust" sounds better than "god saves the queen"
Hope nobody will take offense of my post, Barry puts things down better than me anyway.
Cheers.
>>>>>>>>>Not me certainly, i don't really "do" offended. Do you know why it was said that the sun would never set on the (British) Empire ? ....It's because "god" wouldn't trust an Englishman in the dark !!!!!!!! I'm about as patriotic (sport aside) as i am religious. I had absolutely no say on which particular part of this rock i was born on, and i certainly don't think this is the best patch just because i was born on it.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21604)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 2:21 PM

Cloggs, believe everyone accepts you for who you are whether they believe or do not believe as you do or not and whether you like it or not. Felix did not start this thread to be confrontational only as an expression of what he and those who supported him believe. Editors can play all of the games but because they have the power to delete at will do not belong in any controversy as either self-. It just gives their opinions an unfair advantage. Find it odd that the one who has some many objections to the political threads jumped right into this one to agitate-jus an observation. My opinion here, however, will mean no more than Godwit's did on the arbitrary awarding of EAs-past writing so past caring on that one.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 2:25 PM

Clogged, maybe just stay away from threads that you can not comprehend. God is not dependent on you believing for him to exist. That was actually the sermon we enjoyed today.

papajensai
Papajensai  (Level: 193.4 - Posts: 1025)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 2:33 PM

Linda--Which of these posts is by an editor, and therefore to be disallowed? Do you have insider info?

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 2:38 PM

Felix
Clogged, maybe just stay away from threads that you can not comprehend. God is not dependent on you believing for him to exist. That was actually the sermon we enjoyed today.
>>>>>>>>>>Good point, i don't understand how adults still believe in fairy stories.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 2:42 PM

It's a real shame that I won't be allowed to enjoy it when you find out different.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 2:46 PM

Felix, didn't realize that you were the entity deciding where folks will go.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 2:49 PM

Not me. Non-believers don't go to Heaven, Sandy. I do hope to see you there.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21604)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 2:50 PM

RJ lets just say I am psychic. No, not psycho as many believe

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 2:51 PM

S'okay, I prefer the "smoking" section.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 2:55 PM

do u think god's mad at me?
In my mind, if there is a god, it's so above the petty human emotions we ascribe to it.

kaufman
Kaufman  (Level: 257.1 - Posts: 3936)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 2:56 PM

There are a lot of people who need the help a lot more than we do. If you are praying for specific countries, please pray for theirs too.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 3:02 PM

If you have a genuine concern for a particular country, please signify which one. There are plenty of people here who realize that prayer works. If you are being sarcastic than take a number.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 3:05 PM

#4 (or so) God's busy helping the Colts. Please leave him/her/it alone until 1600 EST. (unless there's OT. Then, please wait longer. Hunger can wait.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.8 - Posts: 1745)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 4:17 PM

Why do we continually see the religious theme on the boards. There is no one size fits all God. God is something different to everyone. I do want to pray for our country because for some reason we feel we are better than the rest of the world. A little humility would sure help our arses.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 4:19 PM

Because it still America. If you don't like free speech, climb back...................

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.8 - Posts: 1745)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 4:24 PM

Yeah I know the rhetoric all to well, rah rah America, love it or leave it, flag waving, God worshiping, and meddle in everyone
convictions. Suppress all freedom, religion, politics and morality. Then what we would have would be puritanical 18th century BS. Lets go forward not backward in our thinking. The Bible has as many interpretations as scholars who study it. Let us all take a deep breath and say OOOOHHHHHHHMMMMM.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 4:28 PM

Nobody asked you to do anything. This country was found ed partly on freedom of religious beliefs. So whether we are Bible thumpers or stinking drunks we have the freedom to state our thoughts. Start something somewhere else.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.8 - Posts: 1745)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 4:31 PM

I can start any on any thread I choose and don't put it out there if you don't expect to get anything back. Oh I forgot gun waving, that is high on the list with the bible thumping and flag waving and bless the USA.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 4:32 PM

As usual lmao @ U!

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 4:42 PM

Are non-stinky drunks ok? Why, oh why, do we have political threads? I know, cause they're the ones people read.

caramel1
Caramel1  (Level: 128.4 - Posts: 21604)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 4:48 PM

YA think, Sandy? Bobo, is always so offended but bumps them up when they have all but disappeared. LMAO too, Felix

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 4:52 PM

Sandy, I have you pictured as a cool drunk with a cigar, but that's just me.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 4:52 PM

I'll pray for America today at Church Felix. And God bless you for starting this thread.



felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 4:55 PM

Thanks Jeremy. It was a positive thought post hijacked by thread terrorist. I hope you enjoy the rest of your Sunday!

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 5:07 PM

I do NOT smoke cigars!

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 5:10 PM

A pipe?

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 5:12 PM

Only a tailpipe occasionally, if I miss the bay area.

salzypat
Salzypat  (Level: 156.5 - Posts: 5316)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 6:21 PM

Gosh Felix, you sure know how to cause trouble. The nerve of you asking for prayers for our country and its leaders!!! (hope you catch the sarcasm.)

Clevercloggs is who he is. Most of the time I don't get too peeved with what he says. He has a right to his beliefs and I respect his beliefs even though he is at the opposite end of the belief scale from me. In fact, I sorta like the rascal.

Barry, why should Felix be allowed to ask those of us who pray (he was very specific in wording that - he didn't expect "everyone" to pray) to pray for our country.

If you live in Australia and you are a believer, then you ask God to bless your country, too. His blessings are infinite not finite.

We can have political threads, threads about sex, jokes medical procedures, etc., so why can't Felix ask those of a like mind to join him in his prayer for our country and leaders?

If you aren't a believer, just move on along, there's nothing to see here.

BTW, Donden, didn't you have a birthday on Friday? I have it written down that you were 45, is that correct?

ladyvol
Ladyvol  (Level: 205.4 - Posts: 5492)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 6:29 PM

GOD BLESS THE WHOLE WORLD AS HE IS HOLDING IT IN HIS MIGHTY HANDS AS WE SPEAK...
Vickie

kaufman
Kaufman  (Level: 257.1 - Posts: 3936)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 6:48 PM

Jacksonville covered. Now what?

donden
Donden  (Level: 112.5 - Posts: 2127)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 8:33 PM

Pat- No, my b-day is May 11. And you missed my age by 27 years. My oldest boy (same name) is 9/5/57. Oh,,,,to be 45 again, (sigh)

fudypatootie
Fudypatootie  (Level: 197.3 - Posts: 1302)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 8:40 PM

Thanks, Felix, and thanks, Pat for your words, as well.

uturntama
Uturntama  (Level: 51.0 - Posts: 179)
Sun, 13th Sep '09 9:02 PM

People LOVE to oppose God but ONE DAY they will ALL say I wish I had listened! You think the fires in California are hot.....just wait guys! Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Mon, 14th Sep '09 4:26 AM

Felix
It's a real shame that I won't be allowed to enjoy it when you find out different.
.............That is remarkably honest............. for a christian, well done.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Mon, 14th Sep '09 4:29 AM

Sandracam
do u think god's mad at me?
In my mind, if there is a god, it's so above the petty human emotions we ascribe to it.
>>>>>>>Not mad at you Sandy, just mad. If there is a god, which there isn't, it presents as a spoilt, mad, child god.........always throwing it's toys out of the pram.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Mon, 14th Sep '09 4:51 AM



jank
God's blessings aren't a win/lose situation. He is limitless - He doesn't take blessings from one country to give to another.

See, Christians actually believe God has a will for our lives, for others' lives, for the country's life. And we pray to be in God's will. We pray that the hearts of our leaders will be turned toward righteousness and honesty to lead the country into God's will.

And anyway, by praying for our country and our leaders, we're only being obedient to God - we are commanded to pray for our leaders:
****************************************************************************************
Apparently, the leaders in your state Texas, California , and South Carolina are busy being disobedient. Can you say sex scandals (somebodies got lucky there), liars ( not god's will) and not following the law of land by wanting to secede from Great America( very unrighteous)?

I guess the power has gotten limited

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Mon, 14th Sep '09 7:55 AM

Cloggs, He's not mad at you, merely disappointed that you refuse to believe. Just like gravity, His Love applies to us all. Yes I am Christian, but Human as well. We know you don't believe. Too bad. have a great day.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Mon, 14th Sep '09 10:59 AM

I meant mad as in "a screw loose", not mad as in angry. I am having a great day thanks, hope you are too.

didb72
Didb72  (Level: 210.1 - Posts: 243)
Mon, 14th Sep '09 12:16 PM

Uturntama said: People LOVE to oppose God but ONE DAY they will ALL say I wish I had listened! You think the fires in California are hot.....just wait guys! Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess.

It looks like the Spanish Inquisition could be back soon

uturntama
Uturntama  (Level: 51.0 - Posts: 179)
Mon, 14th Sep '09 12:46 PM

Hey Bigmama.........you're catching on.......you wrote: Apparently, the leaders in your state Texas, California , and South Carolina are busy being disobedient. Can you say sex scandals (somebodies got lucky there), liars ( not god's will) and not following the law of land by wanting to secede from Great America( very unrighteous)?

I guess the power has gotten limited

First God's powers are limitless. He took me from a 24 year drug addcition rather career, to being a productive, God fearing, employed, useful person who each and every day gives him all the glory and all the honor of pulling me out of the pit of hell. I give my testimony every day to people who are reaching out for him. Secondly, you got it girl......all the scandalous, devious, God hating, lying, stealing blasphemy of the Lord is written in THE book called THE BIBLE. It is taking place and it will only get worse Ya'll better get serious before its TOO LATE. Do not mock the Lord because "Vengeance is mine saith the Lord". Amen....peace out....gotta go to my God given job sober......thank you Lord.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Mon, 14th Sep '09 2:11 PM

Thanks for that, most amusing. Did you ever ask why "god" made you dependent in the first place ? Yeah, ok, i've heard all the BS. Let's try this then, why didn't "god" STOP you becoming dependent? I doubt you travelled much further down the path than i did, and no imaginary friend dug me out of the mire. People need to stand up and take responsibility, not blame it all on mythical beasts called god and satan.

salzypat
Salzypat  (Level: 156.5 - Posts: 5316)
Mon, 14th Sep '09 2:40 PM

Hey, Dave, how do you know God DIDN'T help you out of the mire? Just because YOU didn't call on him doesn't mean someone else didn't in your behalf.

But I won't argue that point with you because neither of us will change our minds. I just toss that out to you as something you maybe haven't considered.

What I will tell you, in answer as to why God "allowed" Uturntama to become addicted in the first place, is that we have all been given free choice. We can choose which path in life to take. And because we are naughty children at times, we don't always make the right choices.

That's when a loving, Heavenly father steps in, when we ask him, and he helps us make the better choices and to clean up our lives. That also includes our accepting responsibility for our bad choices. God doesn't wave a magic wand over any of us to make change and recovery easy. He changes our heart so we can do the hard work it takes.

Uturntama, you sound like a neat person! Anyone who loves their dog is OK in my book!

chender
Chender  (Level: 193.7 - Posts: 160)
Mon, 14th Sep '09 2:55 PM

I'm confused. Why would a loving father want to consign people to pits of burning fire for not believing in Him? Why would God loving people relish the thought of non-believers burning? Should we believe just because we're afraid not to?

larefamiliaris
Larefamiliaris  (Level: 135.2 - Posts: 877)
Mon, 14th Sep '09 2:59 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWT2qHVftGk

Even though it's an anagram...

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Mon, 14th Sep '09 3:41 PM

Chender: One interpretation of your question is that "the fires of hell" are just what it feels like to be seperated from God for eternity. Of course, that seperation would be a choice on your part. Haven't you ever heard that the "Fires of heaven are hotter than the fires of hell?" I actually believe something similar to C.S. Lewis regarding hell, that even if you went to hell you would still have the "choice" to get back out again....in other words to not endure the seperation anymore. I know I'm in the minority here regarding hell, and really I don't want to get involved in this.....it's just something to think about.

salzypat
Salzypat  (Level: 156.5 - Posts: 5316)
Mon, 14th Sep '09 3:43 PM

I don't believe a loving father does consign people to pits of burning fire for not believing in Him. Satan is the one who tries to lure you there. Jesus is quoted as saying, in my father's house are many rooms and I go to prepare one for you (roughly translated). Perhaps that could mean that someone like Mother Teresa has a room in the presidential suite on the top floor and someone else has a tiny room in the basement. Who knows? I just trust.

I also don't think God-loving people should relish the thought of non-believers burning. If any of us say or believe that, we need to rethink what we are doing. One of the toughest things I am doing right now is praying for a man from my community convicted of killing a small child. My gut instinct is to wish him to burn - but I can't follow that instinct. Of course he must suffer his punishment the courts have handed him. He admitted his guilt and so he must accept man's punishment and be sentenced to prison. It has been a difficult thing for me to pray for him, but I have, and I feel as though I have grown in my prayer life by doing this.

We don't all believe alike but we don't have to. We just all need to respect one another.



clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Mon, 14th Sep '09 6:12 PM

Salzypat
Hey, Dave, how do you know God DIDN'T help you out of the mire? Just because YOU didn't call on him doesn't mean someone else didn't in your behalf.
............Because of the all the too human steps i and others took to find the path to recovery. Why aren't you asking others how they know "god" helped them ? I have the phone numbers, do they ? I walked the path that i walked because of peer pressure mainly, what did i do as a thirteen year old kid that was so wicked ? I had alcoholic parents, where was god to help me ?

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Mon, 14th Sep '09 6:44 PM

Do you really want to know or are you just joshin'?

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Mon, 14th Sep '09 6:52 PM

Jan go ahead and tell him. Remember: We are to spread the Light! Have a great day!

uturntama
Uturntama  (Level: 51.0 - Posts: 179)
Tue, 15th Sep '09 1:45 AM

Clevercloggs.........so have you recovered or maybe that is the problem? You can be sober but still act like an alcoholic or addict. When I was using and abusing God was the furthest thing from my mind as the Holy Spirit has a way of convicting us. I find it so sad that you do not give God an opportunity to work in your life but you continually slam the door and slam him. Just can't figure you out!

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Tue, 15th Sep '09 1:59 AM


Uturntama
Ya'll better get serious before its TOO LATE. Do not mock the Lord because "Vengeance is mine saith the Lord". Amen....peace out....gotta go to my God given job sober......thank you Lord.

******************************************************************************

Is that a suggestion or demand? Neither one matters to me as I've Been there done that. My I suggest you proselytize someone who is interested in that plight.

uturntama
Uturntama  (Level: 51.0 - Posts: 179)
Tue, 15th Sep '09 2:04 AM

Bigmama......I'll pray for you

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Tue, 15th Sep '09 2:10 AM

That's very kind of you to think of me. Thanks

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Tue, 15th Sep '09 6:35 AM

Uturntama
Clevercloggs.........so have you recovered or maybe that is the problem? You can be sober but still act like an alcoholic or addict. When I was using and abusing God was the furthest thing from my mind as the Holy Spirit has a way of convicting us. I find it so sad that you do not give God an opportunity to work in your life but you continually slam the door and slam him. Just can't figure you out!

Have i recovered ? No, i suffer from a life long condition, i am RECOVERING. Your god has every opportunity it wants, i thought it was meant to be omniscient and omnipotent ? One scintilla of evidence is all i ask, and what do i get ? A mountain of circumstantial evidence that no benovelent being is looking out for us. I spend a good bit of my time woking for the still suffering addict and alcoholic; i am satisfied, but not smug, about the path my recovery is taking. If i thought it could be improved by falling on my knees and talking to myself i would give it a go.


fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Tue, 15th Sep '09 8:53 AM

So cloggs, you yet to have proven there is no God. Could you do that for me? The burden of proof is on you. Please, prove to me He doesn't exist. THIS I can't wait to see.

bigmama60
Bigmama60  (Level: 95.2 - Posts: 6648)
Tue, 15th Sep '09 9:21 AM

Have you seen the invisible man in the clouds? Prove it if you have.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Tue, 15th Sep '09 9:37 AM

Fainodraino
So cloggs, you yet to have proven there is no God. Could you do that for me? The burden of proof is on you. Please, prove to me He doesn't exist. THIS I can't wait to see.

>>>>>>>>What are you on ? The burden of proof is on me, why? Do i ask you to prove that the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist ? Do i have to prove the tooth fairy doesn't exist too ? You did know about the tooth fairy didn't you ?

uturntama
Uturntama  (Level: 51.0 - Posts: 179)
Tue, 15th Sep '09 11:57 AM

Clevercloggs: No, i suffer from a life long condition, i am RECOVERING

H*E*A*D*L*I*N*E* news: 2 Corinthians 5:17 (New International Version)
17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!


With God....you do not have to carry around any longer that you are an addict or alcoholic. That burden is so heavy. I am a new creation with God and I start over. What a breathe of fresh air in this world of negativity. So, you see....my God lightens the load but your so called God still keeps you stuck in the muck and mire of your troubled life. You are in recovery and I am recovered. Which would anyone in their right mind choose? So, you are in recovery and I am assuming that you mean A.A. Therefore, you choose a higher power. Which rock do you worship?

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Tue, 15th Sep '09 12:09 PM

You know what happens to people who ass-u-me don't you ? I have attended AA, but not for several years. I really hope you don't go around telling addicts that your "god" can cure them. That would turn stupid, but harmless, adherence of a cult into something far more sinister. I suppose you think praying can cure cancer too ? When i see somebody pray, and their amputated arm grows back, i'll be really impressed.............not until. I don't know what other strange manifestations you are imagining, but i don't have any kind of god, so i know not of what you refer.

uturntama
Uturntama  (Level: 51.0 - Posts: 179)
Tue, 15th Sep '09 12:32 PM

Such a mockery of God. There is power in prayer. God DOES exist and one day your hard little head will find out BUT it will be too late. This going back and forth really does not solve anything. So, when you have a deep, heart wrenching struggle in life......what is your solution? Since you do not believe therefore you do pray. How do you cope? You never answered who is your higher power?????

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Tue, 15th Sep '09 12:44 PM


Your god is no more special than the thousands of other gods out there, it certainly doesn't command any respect from me. So i'm going to burn in hell for exercising free will am i ? What a nasty, arrogant little god you worship. You ask how i cope with tough struggles in life. Well i don't invent imaginary friends to hold my hand, but i survive just fine thanks. You didn't ask who or what my higher power power is, or indeed if i have one. But now that you have asked, i don't have one. Like i said, AA is a long way behind me. I hold meetings that are similar to AA, but with strictly no mention of gods or spooks of any kind.

uturntama
Uturntama  (Level: 51.0 - Posts: 179)
Tue, 15th Sep '09 12:48 PM

You sound so miserable in your response. You are my brother and I will pray for you. Gotta go to my God given job sober....thank you Lord. Special prayers go out to my brother Clevercloggs. Have a blessed day Clever. May the good Lord make his presence known in your life!

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Tue, 15th Sep '09 12:50 PM

Ditto!

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Tue, 15th Sep '09 1:28 PM

Miserable, me ? I'm perkier than Pinkie's mate.

chender
Chender  (Level: 193.7 - Posts: 160)
Tue, 15th Sep '09 1:30 PM

Seems to me that Clevercloggs is managing very well without your prayers, but they obviously make you happy.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Tue, 15th Sep '09 4:03 PM

Remember, you can't prove a negative!

garrybl
Garrybl  (Level: 280.2 - Posts: 6644)
Tue, 15th Sep '09 4:13 PM

prove it!

kaufman
Kaufman  (Level: 257.1 - Posts: 3936)
Tue, 15th Sep '09 6:09 PM

Sigh.

Clevercloggs has described an event in his life that to an atheist provides evidence that there is no god, and to a theist provides evidence that there is one. You're not going to convince each other, no matter how obvious it is to you.

Moving on agnostically to the next thread ...

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Tue, 15th Sep '09 8:18 PM

Ken, your assertion that people won't change their mind would be true if there were no God.

But since there is, consider this.

Everyone came into this world lost. Everyone who has become a Christian (asked Jesus into their heart, asked for forgiveness of their sin) had a mind and heart changing event in their lives.

Every single Christian is someone who did not believe, and then changed their mind.

But it's more than changing the mind. When we pray for someone, God sends His Holy Spirit to that person to move on their heart and minister to them. It's a very spiritual thing - inexplicable to anyone who hasn't experienced it. But through prayer (which Christians are given the Great Commission to tell the world of God's love and Jesus' salvation - and we are commanded to do it whether other humans like it or not) people come to know the truth of God's existence BECAUSE they finally feel God's love, forgiveness, and the joy of release of sin and guilt.

So when Christians pray for someone, it has nothing to do with what other humans "let" us do, "advise" us to do, or try to "prevent" us from doing. It's our answer to God's commandment. No human can stop us.

God loves each person and wills that ALL men might be saved.

"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance"
(2 Pet. 3:9).

Where there is life, there is still time for any human to change his/her mind. The love of God is right there waiting. Jesus even prays to the Father for us.


uturntama
Uturntama  (Level: 51.0 - Posts: 179)
Tue, 15th Sep '09 11:03 PM

J E S U S I S L O R D ***Amen....preach it sister***!

BECAUSE they finally feel God's love, forgiveness, and the joy of release of sin and guilt.

J E S U S I S L O R D J E S U S I S L O R D J E S U S I S L O R D

I took a big sigh after reading that one and am so thankful that I am forgiven for all the selfishness, the misery and the pain I caused from doing the devils work.

J E S U S I S L O R D J E S U S I S L O R D J E S U S I S L O R D


J E S U S I S L O R D and ya can't take that away from me!!!!!!!!!!! J E S U S I S L O R D

Just got home from my God given job and I am still sober thank you Jesus. God has presented me yet with another person to testify about the awesome work Jesus have performed in my life. Her name is Melody (please pray for her) she is only 6 days sober. She will be volunteering at the thrift shop I manage called SECOND CHANCE. She is so hungry for the Lord and what he has in store for her NEW life. God is SO COOL!

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Tue, 15th Sep '09 11:05 PM

I want to meet you!

And the cool thing is, some day I will!

uturntama
Uturntama  (Level: 51.0 - Posts: 179)
Tue, 15th Sep '09 11:17 PM

COOL CHRISTIANS.......right on!


Let's have a revival right here on Sploofus!

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Wed, 16th Sep '09 1:50 AM

Bloody hell, these cults can get scary can't they ?

kaufman
Kaufman  (Level: 257.1 - Posts: 3936)
Wed, 16th Sep '09 5:50 AM

Janice,

My point isn't that people can't be convinced to change their minds, but rather that they need more than that as a catalyst. They need an event that invalidates, rather than supports, their prior mindset, and what was presented did not fit that template.

salzypat
Salzypat  (Level: 156.5 - Posts: 5316)
Wed, 16th Sep '09 11:55 AM

Clevercloggs - cults? A cult is one in which everyone is ordered to believe as a human leader dictates, with no opportunity for individual thought or interpretation and you are separated from your family and friends and forbidden to speak to them or even let them know where you are.

I don't think the "believers" on Sploofus come anywhere near that title yet. But I did enjoy your sarcastic humor when you said it!

Now, as to the scary part -- set up your Web cam and get a look at me when I first get up and on the computer mornings. That's when you need to be afraid - very afraid!

uturntama
Uturntama  (Level: 51.0 - Posts: 179)
Wed, 16th Sep '09 11:58 AM

Clever: Nothing to be scared of.......you're just scared to change cause you are stuck in a rut like I was. I'm praying for you brother.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 118.8 - Posts: 1745)
Wed, 16th Sep '09 12:36 PM

I am a believer although not as zealous as some of my fellow sploofusers. I know you won't convince someone like CC, but I do believe. I don't attend church, and I believe there are many ways to worship. I would like to think I am a good person, I do pray and I want to become an even better person. I hope that we can all love and appreciate each other no matter what.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Wed, 16th Sep '09 1:09 PM

Salzypat
Clevercloggs - cults? A cult is one in which everyone is ordered to believe as a human leader dictates, with no opportunity for individual thought or interpretation and you are separated from your family and friends and forbidden to speak to them or even let them know where you are.

I don't think the "believers" on Sploofus come anywhere near that title yet. But I did enjoy your sarcastic humor when you said it!

Now, as to the scary part -- set up your Web cam and get a look at me when I first get up and on the computer mornings. That's when you need to be afraid - very afraid!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..cult (klt)
n.
1.
a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
b. The followers of such a religion or sect.
2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.
Skype or Yahoo Messenger ?

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Wed, 16th Sep '09 1:13 PM

Uturntama
Clever: Nothing to be scared of.......you're just scared to change cause you are stuck in a rut like I was. I'm praying for you brother.
>>>>>>>>>I said they can be scary, i didn't say they scared me. Pray away, it'll make no difference one way or the other anyway.
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Wed, 16th Sep '09 4:01 PM

The first part of an article I found...

Atheists are “coming out of the closet” and becoming more vocal about their message that “there is no God.” Professor Richard Dawkins (Britain’s leading atheist) is encouraging those who share his views to express their opinion. Author of The God Delusion, Dawkins says he wants to “free children from being indoctrinated with the religion of their parents or their community.” Will Christians be prepared to “give an answer” to the atheists’ claims?

Materialistic atheism is one of the easiest worldviews to refute. A materialistic atheist believes that nature is all that there is. He believes that there is no transcendent God who oversees and maintains creation. Many atheists believe that their worldview is rational—and scientific. However, by embracing materialism, the atheist has destroyed the possibility of knowledge, as well as science and technology. In other words, if atheism were true, it would be impossible to prove anything!

Here’s why:

Reasoning involves using the laws of logic. These include the law of non-contradiction which says that you can’t have A and not-A at the same time and in the same relationship. For example, the statement “My car is in the parking lot, and it is not the case that my car is in the parking lot” is necessarily false by the law of non-contradiction. Any rational person would accept this law. But why is this law true? Why should there be a law of non-contradiction, or for that matter, any laws of reasoning? The Christian can answer this question. For the Christian there is an absolute standard for reasoning; we are to pattern our thoughts after God’s. The laws of logic are a reflection of the way God thinks. The law of non-contradiction is not simply one person’s opinion of how we ought to think, rather it stems from God’s self-consistent nature. God cannot deny Himself ( 2 Timothy 2:13), and so, the way God upholds the universe will necessarily be non-contradictory.

Laws of logic are God’s standard for thinking. Since God is an unchanging, sovereign, immaterial Being, the laws of logic are abstract, universal, invariant entities. In other words, they are not made of matter—they apply everywhere and at all times. Laws of logic are contingent upon God’s unchanging nature. And they are necessary for logical reasoning. Thus, rational reasoning would be impossible without the biblical God.


fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Wed, 16th Sep '09 4:01 PM

The second part...

The materialistic atheist can’t have laws of logic. He believes that everything that exists is material—part of the physical world. But laws of logic are not physical. You can’t stub your toe on a law of logic. Laws of logic cannot exist in the atheist’s world, yet he uses them to try to reason. This is inconsistent. He is borrowing from the Christian worldview to argue against the Christian worldview. The atheist’s view cannot be rational because he uses things (laws of logic) that cannot exist according to his profession.

The debate over the existence of God is a bit like a debate over the existence of air. Can you imagine someone arguing that air doesn’t actually exist? He would offer seemingly excellent “proofs” against the existence of air, while simultaneously breathing air and expecting that we can hear his words as the sound is transmitted through the air. In order for us to hear and understand his claim, it would have to be wrong. Likewise, the atheist, in arguing that God does not exist must use laws of logic that only make sense if God does exist. In order for his argument to make sense, it would have to be wrong.



fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Wed, 16th Sep '09 4:02 PM

The Third Part...

How can the atheist respond?

The atheist might say, “Well, I can reason just fine, and I don’t believe in God.” But this is no different than the critic of air saying, “Well, I can breathe just fine, and I don’t believe in air.” This isn’t a rational response. Breathing requires air, not a profession of belief in air. Likewise, logical reasoning requires God, not a profession of belief in Him. Of course the atheist can reason; it’s because God has made his mind and given him access to the laws of logic—and that’s the point. It’s because God exists that reasoning is possible. The atheist can reason, but within his own worldview he cannot account for his ability to reason.

The atheist might respond, “Laws of logic are conventions made up by man.” But conventions are (by definition) conventional. That is, we all agree to them and so they work—like driving on the right side of the road. But if laws of logic were conventional, then different cultures could adopt different laws of logic (like driving on the left side of the road). So, in some cultures it might be perfectly fine to contradict yourself. In some societies truth could be self-contradictory. Clearly that wouldn’t do. If laws of logic are just conventions, then they are not universal laws. Rational debate would be impossible if laws of logic were conventional, because the two opponents could simply pick different standards for reasoning. Each would be right according to his own arbitrary standard.

The atheist might respond, “Laws of logic are material—they are made of electro-chemical connections in the brain.” But then the laws of logic are not universal; they would not extend beyond the brain. In other words, we couldn’t argue that contradictions cannot occur on Mars, since no one’s brain is on Mars. In fact, if the laws of logic are just electro-chemical connections in the brain, then they would differ somewhat from person to person because everyone has different connections in their brain.

Sometimes an atheist will attempt to answer with a more pragmatic response: “We use the laws of logic because they work.” Unfortunately for him, that isn’t the question. We all agree the laws of logic work; they work because they’re true. The question is why do they exist in the first place? How can the atheist account for absolute standards of reasoning like the laws of logic? How can non-material things like laws exist if the universe is material only?


fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Wed, 16th Sep '09 4:03 PM

The last part...

As a last resort, the atheist may give up a strictly materialistic view and agree that there are immaterial, universal laws. This is a huge concession; after all, if a person is willing to concede that immaterial, universal, unchanging entities can exist, then he must consider the possibility that God exists. But this concession does not save the atheist’s position. He must still justify the laws of logic. Why do they exist? And what is the point of contact between the material physical world and the immaterial world of logic? In other words, why does the material universe feel compelled to obey immaterial laws? The atheist cannot answer these questions. His worldview cannot be justified; it is arbitrary and thus irrational.

Clearly, atheism is not a rational worldview. It is self-refuting because the atheist must first assume the opposite of what he is trying to prove in order to be able to prove anything. As Dr. Cornelius VanTil put it, “[A]theism presupposes theism.” Laws of logic require the existence of God—and not just any god, but the Christian God. Only the God of the Bible can be the foundation for knowledge (Proverbs 1:7; Colossians 2:3). Since the God of Scripture is immaterial, sovereign, and beyond time, it makes sense to have laws of logic that are immaterial, universal, and unchanging. Since God has revealed Himself to man, we are able to know and use logic. Since God made the universe and since God made our minds, it makes sense that our minds would have an ability to study and understand the universe. But if the brain is simply the result of mindless evolutionary processes that conveyed some sort of survival value in the past, why should we trust its conclusions? If the universe and our minds are simply the results of time and chance, as the atheist contends, why would we expect that the mind could make sense of the universe? How could science and technology be possible?

Rational thinking, science, and technology make sense in a Christian worldview. The Christian has a basis for these things; the atheist does not. This is not to say that atheists cannot be rational about some things. They can because they too are made in God’s image and have access to God’s laws of logic. But they have no rational basis for rationality within their own worldview. Likewise, atheists can be moral, but they have no basis for that morality according to what they claim to believe. An atheist is a walking bundle of contradictions. He reasons and does science, yet he denies the very God that makes reasoning and science possible. On the other hand, the Christian worldview is consistent and makes sense of human reasoning and experience.


clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Wed, 16th Sep '09 5:09 PM

None of which provides not one scintilla of evidence for all of the various imaginary friends. There's more evidence for the existence of Klingons.

johnbtv
Johnbtv  (Level: 265.0 - Posts: 202)
Wed, 16th Sep '09 5:22 PM

Oh, darn!

125 replies!

My only comment is that the thread should have been titled: "By The Way If You Are Going To Worship Today"

Thank you!

John

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Wed, 16th Sep '09 9:43 PM

First of all, prove there are Klingons...I've always wanted to meet one!

Secondly, you still haven't proven God doesn't exist.

I'm waiting.......

uturntama
Uturntama  (Level: 51.0 - Posts: 179)
Thu, 17th Sep '09 12:38 AM

Hey Clever......I already read that on your profile......still stuck in that rut huhhhhhhhhhhh?????

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Thu, 17th Sep '09 5:11 PM

"None of which provides not one scintilla of evidence for all of the various imaginary friends. There's more evidence for the existence of Klingons."

This kind of philosophical question requires the seperation of the questions that all come into play.

1) First, there is the question of whether something exists or not. A thing can exist whether we know it or not.

2) Second, there is the question of whether we know it exists. (To answer this question affirmatively is to presuppose that the first question is answered affirmatively, of course; though a thing can exist without our knowing it, we cannot know it exists unless it exists.)

3)Third, there is the question of whether we have a reason for our knowledge. We can know some things without being able to lead others to that knowledge by reasons. Many Christians think God's existence is like that.

4)Fourth, there is the question of whether this reason, if it exists, amounts to a proof. Most reasons do not. Most of the reasons we give for what we believe amount to probabilities, not proofs. For instance, the building you sit in may collapse in one minute, but the reliability of the contractor and the construction materials is a good reason for thinking that very improbable.

5)Fifth, if there is a proof, is it a scientific proof, a proof by the scientific method, i.e., by experiment, observation, and measurement? Philosophical proofs can be good proofs, but they do not have to be scientific proofs.

I believe we can answer yes to the first four of these questions about the existence of God but not to the fifth. God exists, we can know that, we can give reasons, and those reasons amount to proof, but not scientific proof, except in an unusually broad sense.

So, know that we have that aside (with help from Mr. Kreeft), out of curiosity alone what kind of things in your opinion would constitute evidence Clevercloggs?

BTW, I'm not trying to convert you, but would love to understand your views. Thanks.



fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Thu, 17th Sep '09 6:32 PM

If you disprove one side of an argument, does it prove the other side? Or at least lend support to the other view? Not always, but sometimes.

For example, let's say one person believes that cats like to eat lollipops, and the other person says that cats don't like to eat lollipops. Unfortunately, for the sake of the argument, it is impossible to ever see a cat eat one (maybe they're very secretive eaters???). So we have to find out some other way if a cat eats lollipops or not. So all the best scientists come together, they do experiment after experiment, they test the contents of the cat's stomach, etc. They come to the conclusion that cats DO NOT eat lollipops, even though they've never seen it one way or the other.

There are tons of examples where disproving one thing scientifically can lend itself to the other argument/theory. For example, the big bang theory has been disproved over and over for years now (and yet they still use it--wonder why), which means that it certainly helps the argument for a creator. And since they can't come up with a replacement theory, it CERTAINLY lends itself to a creator theory.

There are tons of more examples just related to evolution and the origins of the universe, all of which lend themselves to a creator theory.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Thu, 17th Sep '09 6:36 PM

I don't want to argue about the topic of the Big Bang Theory, but out of curiosity, I've always wondered why other Christians than myself have always "been against the theory" when it was a Christian who came up with it? Certainly the original guy didn't seem to think there was a conflict between that theory and religion......I don't get this part of my society. Can you help me out in explaining this Faino?

johnbtv
Johnbtv  (Level: 265.0 - Posts: 202)
Thu, 17th Sep '09 11:09 PM

I just thought of something else to say!

It is in the form of a question and is intended to double the length of this thread!!

Here it is...

Where would the human race be today if religion was not involved in its development?

I think it's going to be interesting!

John

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Thu, 17th Sep '09 11:12 PM

True religion is caring for the children and the widows. So without religion, I guess there would be some hurting children and widows.

Now if you meant, if there were no God, then I'd say nothing would be anywhere.

uturntama
Uturntama  (Level: 51.0 - Posts: 179)
Thu, 17th Sep '09 11:23 PM

God gives us the ten commandments to live our lives by. Without at least attempting to try to achieve those commandments our world would be in alot worse shape than we already are in.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Fri, 18th Sep '09 3:05 AM

What a contentious question John!

If Oppenheimer or Whitehead can be believed, "Scholars such as Oppenheimer{5} and Whitehead{6} affirm that it was the Christian world view that gave birth to science. Specifically, the Christian views of man and of nature during the Renaissance and the Reformation were the spark that ignited the fires of science. ". From this perspective, we might not even have science or it's discoveries at all.

It's just one possibility. I'd love to hear the views of others, especially athiests, on this.

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Fri, 18th Sep '09 9:47 AM

Yep, the scientists who started it all were Christians--and they were creationists, too.

And while I've never heard that a Christian came up with the big bang theory, it's irrelevant. Christians can be wrong. I'm wrong sometimes, too.

Still, irrelevant because it's a flawed theory, and many prominent non-Christian scientists agree.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Fri, 18th Sep '09 10:30 AM

So, know that we have that aside (with help from Mr. Kreeft), out of curiosity alone what kind of things in your opinion would constitute evidence Clevercloggs? clipped from a longish post.
>>>>>>Sorry about the delay, i wanted to answer this without rushing. 1/ If we are talking about absolute proof, anything that has ever been imagined COULD exist. One cannot prove a negative. I cannot prove "gods" do not exist, why would i waste my time trying to ? I cannot prove billions of things don't exist. If you want to compare gods to unicorns, be my guest.
2/ Well, quite simply, i trust the laws of physics. 3/ Let me turn this back to you. What is the reason for having faith that "gods" exist ? There is no tangible evidence, and i would suggest circumstantial evidence weighs heavily in favour of my assertion that gods do not exist. I would suggest that indoctrination from a young age is why most people believe, desperation and mental illness accounts for many of the rest.
4/ I'm not even sure there is a seperate point to address here. 5/ Science is about proof, philosophy is more abstract. Philosophy is a great tool, it allows one to "think outside of the box". I would suggest that science could live without philosophy, in today's world at least, the opposite would not be true. Many of the great scientific discoveries came about by philosophers thinking outside of the realms of gods.



fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Fri, 18th Sep '09 2:04 PM

So if you can't prove that God doesn't exist, doesn't that mean that it's possible that He does? Or do you think that, with the tiny 10% of your brain that you use, is smart enough to figure out that He isn't real and is beyond the realm of possibility?

Looks like you're in denial.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Fri, 18th Sep '09 2:34 PM

That's how I feel. I have no idea if he/she/it exists. If so, well, wouldn't think it would be the angry, vengeful, jealous god that is described by so many. Some say they "feel" god's presence. Well I don't.
"If" there be one though, think it not concerned with human welfare, more into creation and stuff. More of a science guy.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Fri, 18th Sep '09 3:05 PM

Fainodraino
So if you can't prove that God doesn't exist, doesn't that mean that it's possible that He does? Or do you think that, with the tiny 10% of your brain that you use, is smart enough to figure out that He isn't real and is beyond the realm of possibility?
For starters, answering you only takes 10% of my brain. What don't you understand about all the past posts ? I can't prove loads of things don't exist .....OK ? I hope you don't attempt my quizzes.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Fri, 18th Sep '09 4:27 PM

Hi Clever. I too don't want to rush my response, only I'm worried that if I take the time necessary to post a quality reply, I'll never end up posting....eventually I'll forget or some other thing, so I'll go ahead and post a hasty response. You posted five points, only a few of which I will have any comments for.

2/ "Well, quite simply, i trust the laws of physics."

Regarding this point of yours, I'm assuming you mean you believe there is some problem in the realm of religion and physics. As far as I know, there really isn't, but I'm not an expert, especially on the physics side of things. Perhaps if you are you would be interested in the works of John Polkinghorne, in particular his book "Faith of a Physicist". I read it, but it was awhile ago.....off the top of my head that's the only work I could point you to.

3/ Let me turn this back to you. What is the reason for having faith that "gods" exist ? There is no tangible evidence, and i would suggest circumstantial evidence weighs heavily in favour of my assertion that gods do not exist. I would suggest that indoctrination from a young age is why most people believe, desperation and mental illness accounts for many of the rest.

What you mean by "tangible evidence" is still unclear to me, but it's probably not important. I usually classify the reasons for believing into something like three categories, (though I'm just a not too bright guy! lol, there may be more....)
1) Reasons to consider religion
2) Reasons to believe that do not involve direct personal experience
3) Reasons to believe that do
As to what reasons there are to believe in something like religion, I kind of feel no need to repeat what they are, as many of them are well known, though perhaps not all. A good number though are readily googleable.

Something akin to reason number one might be something like the following, which is a quote from a non-religious philosopher:

"The modern age, more or less repudiating the idea of a divine lawgiver, has nevertheless tried to retain the ideas of moral right and wrong, without noticing that in casting God aside they have also abolished the meaningfulness of right and wrong as well. Thus, even educated persons sometimes declare that such things as war, or abortion, or the violation of certain human rights are morally wrong, and they imagine that they have said something true and meaningful. Educated people do not need to be told, however, that questions such as these have never been answered outside of religion.3". -Richard Taylor

In other words, there is no "objective" way to know right from wrong outside of religion. If there is no way outside of religion to know your right from wrong, certainly it gives one reason to worry about the future of society, no? While perhaps not enough reason on it's to "believe" in religion, reasons like that can be a compelling enough reason to investigate the matter further with an open mind.

There are the traditional arguments for the existence of God, many of which we are familiar with already, which are convincing to some people, such as the argument for design, argument from first cause, argument from consience, etc. Some people find these kind of arguments compelling, others do not.

Last, there are reasons related to "personal experience". the kind of experiences involved in "mystical" experiences might be of this kind, or there are many other similar experiences along this line. These are the kind of "reasons" that many non-religious folks will possibly never experience. Some people argue that the best way to believe in God is just to start out where you are, live the life of a "godly person" and do the kind of things that someone who is pursuing God would do and eventually you will believe. Some even argue that perhaps for some there is NO other way.

Regarding your argument about mental illness and religion, it's an old one. I have read arguments on the issue, the one I remember immediately is in the book Mysticism by William James. The argument as I said is old, and many of those arguments are dealt with there, though I have to imagine there are better more modern treatments of the question than just from that psychological giant.

5/ Science is about proof, philosophy is more abstract. Philosophy is a great tool, it allows one to "think outside of the box". I would suggest that science could live without philosophy, in today's world at least, the opposite would not be true. Many of the great scientific discoveries came about by philosophers thinking outside of the realms of gods.

Regarding this argument, one could say that in various departments of philosophy, such as the ethics department, that philosophy can help give scientists the stable society they need to make their discoveries. It's one argument I could make, but I see your point.

This is probably a pretty lame post, written off the top of my head. Given more time to think, perhaps I could have come up with more. Thanks for asking, and more importantly, thanks for taking the time to answer my question Clever. If I think of more, I'll be sure to post it.




smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Fri, 18th Sep '09 4:27 PM

Wow, maybe I should have PM'd you Clever, that post turned out long!! Sorry about that!

donden
Donden  (Level: 112.5 - Posts: 2127)
Fri, 18th Sep '09 4:44 PM

This thread reminds me of a quote by Paul Valery---"God made everything out of nothing. But the nothingness shows through."

fainodraino
Fainodraino  (Level: 113.1 - Posts: 240)
Fri, 18th Sep '09 10:36 PM

For starters, answering you only takes 10% of my brain. What don't you understand about all the past posts ? I can't prove loads of things don't exist .....OK ? I hope you don't attempt my quizzes.


That was almost a good attempt at an insult, except you only use 10% of your brain, which means that it takes ALL 10% of your brain to answer me.

So thank you.

I'm sure I've taken a few of your quizzes, but I rarely keep up with authors. I just take stuff.

But I'd be happy to avoid them if you wish.

johnbtv
Johnbtv  (Level: 265.0 - Posts: 202)
Sat, 19th Sep '09 12:32 AM

This is fun!

John

uturntama
Uturntama  (Level: 51.0 - Posts: 179)
Sat, 19th Sep '09 2:28 AM

Hey Clogg.....I can't call you clever any longer cause you're not. You never did answer my ? about your higher power and since you do not believe in God do you resemble and ape?

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sat, 19th Sep '09 2:46 AM

I did answer your question about higher powers, i don't have one. That is, i don't have a single entity that i regard as a higher power. These cult members sure do lack serenity don't they ?

uturntama
Uturntama  (Level: 51.0 - Posts: 179)
Sat, 19th Sep '09 2:58 AM

I don't know about that but I'm laying down for a peaceful night sleep BUT not before I say my prayers Brother Clogg. You'll be in them too.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sat, 19th Sep '09 8:26 AM

Well it's 1.30 pm here now, and i'm still alive and well. They couldn't have been answered.

salzypat
Salzypat  (Level: 156.5 - Posts: 5316)
Sat, 19th Sep '09 10:15 AM

CC, you are so darned funny! I like your sense of humor - most of the time


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