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ronkon
Ronkon  (Level: 94.7 - Posts: 99)
Sat, 22nd Oct '05 5:20 AM

NO BIBLE OR RELIGION TQOTD, NO RONKON.

If both religion and bible are dropped, I am quiting sploofus. The bible questions are the reason I went gold in the first place.

action23
Action23  (Level: 113.6 - Posts: 180)
Sat, 22nd Oct '05 6:57 AM

sorry to hear that Ron........not much of analyst, but it almost looks like the numbers for those wanting to "keep" the Bible category and those "not wanting" the new Religion and Philosophy category are nearly identical??????
(i.e., no get Bible category, then no want Religion & Philosophy category).........

philkon
Philkon  (Level: 268.9 - Posts: 474)
Sat, 22nd Oct '05 9:02 AM

Your quiting because of not Bible question of the day?

doobie999
Doobie999  (Level: 90.3 - Posts: 29)
Sat, 22nd Oct '05 10:45 AM

C'mon ronkon! There are still alot of fun categories to explore. Instead of taking questions and quizes on what you already know, you should try learning something else. There is more to life than the bible and religion.
Break out of your box.

blaney
Blaney  (Level: 77.1 - Posts: 48)
Sat, 22nd Oct '05 10:59 AM

I agree with not being happy about dropping Religion category. Why do they have to drop some of these anyhow?

kravfighter
Kravfighter  (Level: 162.6 - Posts: 563)
Sat, 22nd Oct '05 11:03 AM

Blaney, if you check oout the message thread under this one by Sploofus "TQOTD Category Poll Closed", eksimba does an excellent job explaining why the category was removed.

redbaron
Redbaron  (Level: 198.1 - Posts: 296)
Sat, 22nd Oct '05 12:18 PM

Sorry to see you go, Ron...Best of luck in your studies and your future as a minister! And thanks for the fun quizzes you've contributed. Obviously, I (and I think everyone) would rather you stay, but if you feel the need to "vote with your feet," that's certainly your choice to make.

Best regards,

Will

mamacurlyhead
Mamacurlyhead  (Level: 77.9 - Posts: 66)
Sat, 22nd Oct '05 12:21 PM

I have to agree with Ronkon - I have had Music and Musicians THREE days in a row. Yuk I think I should be able to choose how to expand my horizons thank you very much.

jenn326
Jenn326  (Level: 22.8 - Posts: 173)
Sat, 22nd Oct '05 12:58 PM

Sorry to see you go.

ronkon
Ronkon  (Level: 94.7 - Posts: 99)
Sun, 23rd Oct '05 3:03 AM

I took all trivia genres and opted out in either vocabulary or number problems because I don't really consider it trivia. It has nothing to do with not wanting to do with the kind of trivia. I was a gold member because I wanted to support a site that #1 offered me a chance to exercise my bible knowlegde #2 did not discriminate against people of faith in general.

uncleresa
Uncleresa  (Level: 71.3 - Posts: 132)
Sun, 23rd Oct '05 3:46 AM

i have never opted for or against any field for the TQOD, and maybe I am the one who was unfarely treated, because I had to answer questions on all the fields, while other people got to answer on their "chosen" fields only. I think the playing field should stay as it is, ie, as I've been playing it!

lakerkobe
Lakerkobe  (Level: 18.2 - Posts: 31)
Sun, 23rd Oct '05 4:12 PM

Can you say, "It is annoying to see everyone whine and complain about this site every day"?

Not everyone is going to be happy about everything, but the guy who runs this site appears to be doing his best to appease the majority anyway.

If you are no longer happy with this website... move along. Why post a "woe is me" message?



eksimba
Eksimba  (Level: 29.0 - Posts: 155)
Sun, 23rd Oct '05 4:46 PM

Besides, the people who should be complaining are the ones whose holy books were *not* represented by their own trivia category for all of these months. Yet, curiously, I have yet to read a post by anybody saying they feel discriminated against because there's no Koran trivia.

Christians have been *privileged* by sploofus so far, not discriminated against. No other category of topics has been as specialized as the Bible trivia category, yet all we hear is "waah, waah, waah" now that the categories are being fixed up.

What ever happened to "be thankful for what you get"?

ronkon
Ronkon  (Level: 94.7 - Posts: 99)
Sun, 23rd Oct '05 5:06 PM

I agree there should be more trivia about the bible as well as other religion and philosophy, not less. Just like sports, it is a interest based subject, meaningh you probably won't know about it if you do not have an interest in it. Bring on Koran trivia! I'll help devise questions. The anti-bible croud can opt out if they want to hide from it.

eksimba
Eksimba  (Level: 29.0 - Posts: 155)
Sun, 23rd Oct '05 5:51 PM

I'm with you, Ron. I think we should have more trivia in that vein, not less... Unfortunately the majority of the community feels otherwise, for whatever reason. I voted to have a Religion & Philosophy category added.

redbaron
Redbaron  (Level: 198.1 - Posts: 296)
Sun, 23rd Oct '05 7:46 PM

I voted for R & P, too...I was surprised to see it voted down. But it was. Sports Soup nearly was as well, and my favorite category, Physical Science, sure didn't get a landslide. But the vote is done, the decisions are made. If you are leaving, Ron, then best of luck to you as I said before. If you're not leaving, then could you please let this subject drop? It is closed. The majority has spoken.

I have never seen one iota of discrimination here at Sploofus, and that's a serious charge to be lofting about, and one which you cannot back up. So drop it. Please.

Will

violetblue
Violetblue  (Level: 112.2 - Posts: 850)
Sun, 23rd Oct '05 7:46 PM

You know what? The tribe has spoken.

Can we just move on, please?

ronkon
Ronkon  (Level: 94.7 - Posts: 99)
Mon, 24th Oct '05 3:50 AM

Absolutely not! I will scream it from the mountain tops, if that is what it takes.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 9:07 AM

What??? We had a philosophy/religion category and I missed it? Bring it back Justin!! Why get rid of what could've been one of the best categories?? Yes, by all means, include all faiths, but BRING THIS BACK! I'm putting in a suggestion about that.

pepperdoc
Pepperdoc  (Level: 152.5 - Posts: 4286)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 9:16 AM

And members VOTED on TQOTD categories?

Where are you digging up these threads, Jeremy???

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 9:19 AM

Sorry, I'm looking through the archive. I didn't like most of the threads that were going on right now and I'm not very good at starting new ones, so went looking for something else to talk about.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 9:20 AM

Interesting stuff!

pepperdoc
Pepperdoc  (Level: 152.5 - Posts: 4286)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 9:20 AM

Great idea!!

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 9:59 AM

All hail the good old days

papajensai
Papajensai  (Level: 192.9 - Posts: 1025)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 10:05 AM

Oh, never mind. I thought this thread was about the John Lennon song...

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 10:08 AM

"Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today "

Beep, wrong thread!!

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 10:14 AM

I hate that song.

lodi
Lodi  (Level: 98.6 - Posts: 2144)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 10:20 AM

Looks like ronkon stayed anyway. He used to be much more vocal here. I haven't heard from him in a couple of years.

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 10:23 AM

I love that song

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 10:30 AM

The song has a great tune, the lyrics have "something" true about them, I doubt that philosophically I can go all the way with them though. I admit though, that I enjoy the song whenever it comes on.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 10:32 AM

I arrived, ronkon left for real. Coincidence?

foogs
Foogs  (Level: 267.4 - Posts: 848)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 10:35 AM


Ronkon last logged on a week ago.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 10:44 AM

Good. One less thing.

clevercloggs
Clevercloggs  (Level: 27.4 - Posts: 1246)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 10:48 AM

My word some of these christians can be a tetchy lot can't they ?

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 10:56 AM

Honestly, I feel about the same as that guy, and I've never even recieved a TQOTD!! Some of us just have a love for the subject. If I was a car enthusiast and they took away an automobile TQOTD, I would wonder what keeps me coming back here.

Considering that Sports Soup and Physical Science "barely" seemed to have made the cut, you can't say that deciding when sploofus was small based off a vote of players was really the best way to go about it? What if Physical Science had not won? We'd have alot less satisfied players on this site right now! Where's Alice (Bigbird) for starters?

I kind of like the voting idea, "kind of", though I think in this case the vote seems to have cancelled out good judgement, but personally I think it's time to re-vote!

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 10:57 AM

Oops, should've read: "never even recieved a philosophy religion TQOTD"

sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 10:59 AM

I love the phys sci category, but think they should change the name to just "science" since many ?'s deal with biology.

kaufman
Kaufman  (Level: 256.8 - Posts: 3936)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 11:12 AM

As I understand it, all the religion TQOTDs are now in the Popery category.

papajensai
Papajensai  (Level: 192.9 - Posts: 1025)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 11:22 AM



sandracam
Sandracam  (Level: 149.3 - Posts: 4190)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 11:43 AM

The Popery category!!!!

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 11:45 AM

Ken - have you ever heard of the O'Henry Pun-Off in Austin every May?

You need to go - I think we should sponsor you.

http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/library/ahc/ohpunoff.htm

garrybl
Garrybl  (Level: 279.5 - Posts: 6639)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 12:40 PM

Maybe I missed it...stoutyoungladd could you retrieve the results of the vote that led to religion being dropped?

Barry


PS I'm sure if we got Ahmadinejad back to count the votes we could get a majority for reinstatement.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 12:44 PM

No, I can't, my commentary was based off the commentary of others previously in the thread who seemed to have the results of the poll accessible to them. Especially that last comment by Redbaron.....

P.S. Barry, love the idea.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 12:56 PM

Barry: The comment I remember about the poll was from Action23:

"sorry to hear that Ron........not much of analyst, but it almost looks like the numbers for those wanting to "keep" the Bible category and those "not wanting" the new Religion and Philosophy category are nearly identical??????".

I have no idea exactly what that means in light of his comments afterwards.....(sigh).

fudypatootie
Fudypatootie  (Level: 197.1 - Posts: 1302)
Sat, 13th Jun '09 11:40 PM

This was the comment I found interesting: Can you say, "It is annoying to see everyone whine and complain about this site every day"? Not everyone is going to be happy about everything, but the guy who runs this site appears to be doing his best to appease the majority anyway.

So much for the good old days, huh?

koota
Koota  (Level: 181.7 - Posts: 2100)
Sun, 14th Jun '09 12:00 AM

The whining and complaining that was going on in 2005 is NOTHING compared to the whining and complaining that is going in in 2009.

Trust me.

I don't even recognize this site.

sherilynn1962
Sherilynn1962  (Level: 116.2 - Posts: 372)
Sun, 14th Jun '09 11:12 AM

Did I miss something - been really busy lately (and found Facebook) so I haven't been on very much.

What the heck happened???

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sun, 14th Jun '09 12:08 PM

Sorry Sherrilyn, nothing. I bumped an old thread from 2005, because I thought it was an interesting topic of discussion. I think if you read the rest you will understand. Sorry for the confusion.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 117.7 - Posts: 1745)
Sun, 14th Jun '09 9:24 PM

Jan why do you hate that song? It is not meant to decry christianity. I think he is saying don't use religion as an opiate of the people. It doesn't solve all the problems of mankind to wait for the hereafter and the hell with today. I really think the song is saying do something about the here and now. I think we should all live more in the present and we would be better off.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Sun, 14th Jun '09 10:40 PM

Because I believe in a literal God and the Bible. That leaves no room for wishing there were no religion. And as I've said before, the Bible defines religion as "taking care of orphans and widows." I don't see that the world would be better without it.

But there's also what John Lennon - and all the Beatles stood for. No religion - no Christianity. But plenty of illegal, mind-altering drugs.

I'll take God and no drugs, please.

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Sun, 14th Jun '09 11:12 PM

1. " Because I believe in a literal God and the Bible. That leaves no room for wishing there were no religion." This is what find frightening about you Jank. I want national policy to be established by analysis of what best advances national interest, and it is worrisome to me when people ignore evidence, contemporary circumstances, or suspend logical reasoning because they have determined that some ancient text is literally true.

2. And as I've said before, the Bible defines religion as "taking care of orphans and widows." Jank, I had not realized "religion" is defined in the Bible, but this is interesting to me. Do you have cites to the verses to which you refer.

3. "But there's also what John Lennon - and all the Beatles stood for. No religion - no Christianity". Actually, George Harrison was a very religious man. He became a Hindu in the 1960s. He came to follow the Hare Krishna tradition and was doing so at the time of his death and he was also supportive of the International Society of Krishna Consciousness. I don't really know anything about McCartney's or Starr's religious views. Jank, why do you reject the Hindu gods and the Hindu sacred texts that others claim are literally true?

sherilynn1962
Sherilynn1962  (Level: 116.2 - Posts: 372)
Sun, 14th Jun '09 11:13 PM

Guess I should look at dates before I start asking questions.

Thanks, Jeremy!

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 12:40 AM

Tsk - I'm so glad you asked!!!!

I DO have scripture to back it up! And I'd be thrilled to share it with you.

First, have any of the Beatles not been arrested for possession of illegal drugs - multiple times?

1. If that's all you can come up with as a reason I could believe in a literal creator God, then I accept it - just call me ignorant, counselor. I claim it proudly. Along with all the other millions who believe in a literal God and want to live their lives by the standard set forth by God's love. God has healed me twice and worked several miracles in my life - He has made the truth of His existence known to me and I've made my decision to follow him, by truth, by faith, by love. It's a lifelong commitment for me.

How can my "ignorance" frighten you? Have I ever done one thing that affects your life? No. We live hundreds of miles away. I don't know you. I didn't vote for anyone who is in power in your state who affects you. My "suspended logic" doesn't affect you one whit. I am not in power anywhere. I have yet to enact any national policy.

If there is a God, man's "logic" is pretty lame.

The only power I have is in praying to the God I believe in to touch your heart (and others') and make Himself known to you, so that you can make an informed decision to accept Him or deny Him. (Which if there is no God, you also have no need for fear about that - but if there is, there may be some unexpected joy coming your way).

I find it nothing but absolutely strange that anything about me could actually "frighten" anything about you. So I'm going to make the guess that you're just jiving me with emotional words to get a rise out of me and influence readers.

2. God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16). No Hindu, Islamic, or any other religion's deity ever loved me or loved me enough to die to pay for my sin so that I don't have to. No other deity says He will always love me and never forsake me. No other deity promises to fill me with His Holy Spirit to help guide me every day to sin less and to give more love to others.

Also: Jesus told his disciples, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6). That leaves no room for any other deity in my life.

Also: Exodus 20: 1-3 (From the 10 commandments) "And God spoke all these words, saying, 'I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me.' " This verse also leaves me no room for worship of any other deities.

3. I've quoted this before, but I guess you forgot it. In the Bible, James 1:27 defines religion as: "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."



smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 2:49 AM

So funny - dredge up a 5-year-old whine (Shirley, you've heard there's a whine shortage), and in hours it regurgitates stuff from weeks ago. Le plus ca change, le plus c'est la meme chose, n'est-ce pas?

I'm only speaking for myself on this, Jan, and Tsk may agree or not, but when I use the word "scared" about religious people, I don't mean scared of you personally, and I think you know that. I think you're really cute, and if you lived next door we might be great friends. I AM scared of politically active masses of people who believe as you do; fine folks individually, but collectively frightening, when if they had their druthers they'd have someone making international policy who is momentarily expecting the end of the world. And if they should cause it, might they not think - oh well, it was God's will and they were merely blessed to be his instruments.

It seems reasonable that someone who expects and prays for a preordained, imminent, global war, ending civilization and destroying all but a vestige of humanity in hopes of being among the righteous chosen few, "cleansing" the world of those unlike themselves - pardon me, but that really does seem as if it might be dangerous to the health and well-being of the rest of us in the wrong hands.

That is not a finger I ever want in the same town with the big red Doomsday button. I swear I am not mocking your beliefs, I'm sincerely trying to respectfully explain the fear factor. I don't believe in divine prophecy, but I do believe in self-fulfilling prophecy; big things can happen if enough of the right people think they can at the opportune moment in history. I hope you're not offended to read that I don't want anyone setting off an armageddon in Israel because the Bible says it's supposed to happen. That's way more scary to me than lunatics flying planes into buildings for virgins.

A person who believes that way might make reckless foreign policy and start costly and deadly wars on flimsy pretexts, let the chips fall where they may, Jesus will take care of those who deserve it. As a person who cannot believe that way, indeed, who believes it's only through peace and not war that our hope of survival as a civilization and possibly as a species may be found, can you at least ... imagine ... how I might feel as I do?

Truly, I do not hate you for your religion, I do not hate your religion, or any religion. On the contrary, I find beauty and comfort in the Bible's folk wisdom and poetry. But there's a spectrum of Christianity, and the apocalyptic fundamentalists, the Literal Revelationists, if you will, (I just made that up) to me seem extremists, and all extremists scare me.

I don't want this world to end, I don't want anyone in charge who does, and we'll just have to disagree on that one too.




jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 7:49 AM

Donna, I've never met any Christians who "....expect(s) and pray(s) for a preordained, imminent, global war, ending civilization and destroying all but a vestige of humanity in hopes of being among the righteous chosen few, "cleansing" the world of those unlike themselves - pardon me, but that really does seem as if it might be dangerous to the health and well-being of the rest of us in the wrong hands."

Jesus is the Prince of Peace. The Bible says to pray for the PEACE of Jerusalem. We don't pray for any war, period.

As far as I know, only the Muslim faith does that. Ahmadinijad has spoken those very words because he is actively trying to bring in the '12th Iman" to fulfill Islamic prophecy which ends the world.

http://www.allaboutpopularissues.org/12th-imam.htm which says in part:

"The Shiite Muslim President of Iran, Ahmadinejad, is deeply committed to the Islamic Messiah, al Mahdi. There have been many through the years claiming to be the Hidden Imam but Ahmadinejad believes he is yet to come. He claims that he is to personally prepare the world for the coming Mahdi. In order to save the world, it must be in a state of chaos and subjugation. Ahmadinejad claims he was “directed by Allah to pave the way for the glorious appearance of the Mahdi”. This apocalyptic directive includes some very scary proclamations.

While Christians look for Jesus’ 2nd coming, the Jews await the Messiah and Muslims await the 12th Imam. However, of the three, Allah’s designated Mahdi is the only one who demands a violent path to conquer the world. Mr. Ahmadinejad, and his cabinet, say they have a ‘signed contract’ with al Mahdi in which they pledge themselves to his work. What does this work involve? In light of concerns over Iran’s nuclear capabilities, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has reportedly stated Israel should be wiped off the map. He spoke to the United Nations in September ’05. During that speech he claims to have been in an aura of light and felt a change in the atmosphere during which time no one present could blink their eyes. Iran’s PM is also said to have spoken in apocalyptic terms and seems to relish conflict with the West whom he calls the Great Satan. "




smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 8:18 AM

Well, I haven't studied Islam all my life and don't know much about it. I'll confine my comments to your own question of what makes CHRISTIANS scary to others, so I skipped over that part. I wasn't trying to start a seminar on comparative religion, just to answer what you asked.

I honestly don't mean to mischaracterize your own beliefs, as I said, the spectrum is wide, and many, probably most Christians are NOT "Literal Revelationists" who actively want Jesus to return, with all it must entail to fulfill John's prophesies; I thought you were. My apologies for misunderstanding your position, but there certainly are those as I describe - just saying, those are the scary ones.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 8:30 AM

There's a huge chasm between believing some day something is going to happen and wanting to do something violent to make it happen.

There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that says there's anything a human can do to bring closer the day when Jesus returns.

The Bible says the reason Christians should look forward to the 2nd coming of Jesus is because it will put an END to war and suffering, as things (according to Revelation) get really nasty on earth before that happens.

For one thing, Revelation says that there will be a huge war in Israel where it is attacked from 3 directions and much land is laid waste (which to me has always sounded like nuclear attack for the land itself to be laid waste).

The Bible ONLY instructs Christians to love and help as many people as possible before the end. We are instructed to share God's love throughout the world before the end.

bobolicios
Bobolicios  (Level: 117.7 - Posts: 1745)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 8:36 AM

Whoopee we are all going to die! So now you are a biblical scholar. Whatever. Let's try and do something to accomplish peace instead of waiting around to see if predictions in Revelations comes true.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 8:39 AM

Ok, Bobo. I'm all for it.

You first. What are you personally doing to accomplish peace?

I haven't killed anybody today. But the day is still young.

I guess all that's left is helping my best friend in the soup kitchen downtown that is supported by her church. Nobody better cut in line - I'll have to slap 'em around.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 9:23 AM

I do hope this conversation isn't going to veer off into an insult fest, I'm seriously, and I hope politely trying to explain to Jan (who asked) what is scary about fundamentalists to others.

I know what's in Revelation, and I also know that many of your belief see the predictions of John in current affairs, see the issue of Israel through the prism of prophecy, and believe that it's destined by God, and yes, some are downright gleeful at the prospect of being proven "right" to all the "doubters." I know these people, so don't tell me no Christians think that way.

Because there are people who believe it's "God's plan" to end the world with a cataclysmic war in Israel, I fear they might be fatalistic and cavalier about dangerous developments. Jesus only comes on as the prince of peace AFTER everything is destroyed.

Someone whose beliefs are extreme enough to be awaiting and wishing for the second coming as imagined by John of Patmos, and sees the mid-east conflict in those terms - please realize it seems to many like me a tiny ideological step for someone in power to believe that war is ordained, inevitable, even desirable, and so do nothing to stop it, and possibly cause it, either purposely or through inaction. This is my main reason for not wanting a fundamentalist as my president.

The very idea that the followers of a god (any god) believe that the way to paradise is through a world-destroying war - in which, correct me if I'm wrong, all but those who accept Jesus will be wiped out - that's scary enough in this bloody old world, but to give those people global power that could actually bring it about, that's terrifying.

You asked what scares us. I'm telling you. Don't yell at the messenger.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 9:32 AM

Donna - you gotta stop making assumptions about what the Bible says and actually read the thing.

It's just the opposite - according to the Bible, Christians are murdered for their beliefs in that time, not the ones who survive.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 9:40 AM

Who's assuming? I have read it.

Is it only those who come to Jesus who can survive Armageddon and live in paradise or go to heaven? Isn't that the whole point of "I am the way," John 3:16, etc?

I'm not debating the theology, only telling you what it looks like from the outside.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 9:47 AM

And BTW, in Revelation (and we covered it in the past few postings in the Bible group) John relates some horrible things he sees in the prophecy.

But he also tells of "4 thunders" that he is not allowed to even write about.

All my life, I've hoped those 4 thunders tell that there is a chance that IF humans don't choose to follow their worst side and worst instincts but rather turn to God with confession and repentance, God would save the world and not allow it to be destroyed.

There is precedent. God told Lot if he could find just 10 righteous men in Sodom and Gomorrah, God would not destroy it (Lot could not find 10 righteous men). I still hope man can turn from evil and strive for righteousness and keep the destruction from happening. Every day I have to work hard for that in my own life.

Also - in obvious opposition to what you accuse Christians of wanting (hurry the destruction of Israel to hasten the return of Jesus), it's just the opposite.

Christians very much want no country to destroy Israel. Christians are against Iran having nuclear capabilities. Christians are Israel's best friends. God tells us in Genesis 12:3: "And I will bless them that bless thee (Israel), and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

We don't want war. We want peace. In protecting Israel, we believe we protect the United States (or whatever country we live in).

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 9:58 AM

Oh - and in no way is war and destruction in the end "God's Plan." The Bible only relates what evil men do - God doesn't do it. But God gave us free will, and that's the end humans push humanity to with war and death.

God's plan is this - He wishes all men to be saved. He seeks to save all that are lost. His plan from Genesis is for Jesus to be the sacrifice for all mankind's sins, so that all mankind has a chance to accept His grace, love and forgiveness.

Liberals believe that humans are destroying the earth with practices that create "global warming" and humans must turn from their wicked wasteful, poison creating ways to save the earth.

Of course, the liberals' way of saving the earth is very wrapped up in heavy taxes and their leader, Al Gore, becoming enormously wealthy to afford that very energy-inefficient mansion of his.

The Christian way of salvation costs $0.00. Prayer and changing one's own wicked ways, according to the Bible, would save the world. 2 Chronicles 7:14. "If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 10:14 AM

That's a very nice hope, the part about the thunder. And yes, I hear the "free will" argument in there, God's not doing it, we're doing it to ourselves in our "sinfulness." Not his fault if the whole world goes up in flames, we brought it on ourselves. I get that.

But to repeat, isn't the war predicted by the Bible, believed as the true word of God, and isn't it ONLY those who come to Jesus who can survive Armageddon and live in paradise or go to heaven? And aren't there Christians who fervently want that? Possibly a lot of older ones coming to the end of their lives and hoping for another go-round? Preferably an eternal one.

And while you yourself may be the living soul of love, I can also tell you for a fact there are fundamentalists who despise Jews as much as Muslims and see very little to choose between the two, they're all in the way of a Christians-only paradise, and their issues are merely stepping stones to the fulfillment of that dream.

I'm glad you're more enlightened than some I've talked to in recent years, but there are literally thousands of ways to be a Christian, you guys don't even agree with each other on some really big points, so if I'm painting a high-contrast picture, it's for purposes of answering your question. I hope I have, at least as far as my own reasons for fearing fundamentalism as a political force. I'm fine with people being Literal Revelationists in their personal lives, I just don't want them running the world.

papajensai
Papajensai  (Level: 192.9 - Posts: 1025)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 10:20 AM

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one


smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 10:21 AM



smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 10:25 AM

Every time I hear that song I remember my son playing it at church in the last year of his life.

It may not have been the very last thing I ever heard him play, but it's close enough to think of it that way.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 10:32 AM

I guess I just have never heard that from anyone I've met.

From what I've read in Revelation, no, there are many who survive Armageddon and will still be around.

Best I can understand, Christians still here go to Heaven at that moment, but those who survive the war are still here and still have a chance at redemption.

Yes, if one believes the New Testament (and Old Testament scriptures relating to the Messiah), the murder of Jesus, and His taking on his being of all the sin before, during, and after his time on earth, is God's only plan for salvation. It's the supreme sacrifice, and I guess God thought it was the most He could do for His children, while yet giving them free will to choose. In the "I am the way, the truth, the life. No man comes to the Father but by me" verse, I take it God believes He has given it all for us and if we reject the death and sacrifice of His only Son for our salvation, there is nothing more He will do.

As you said, don't shoot the messenger. I'm also just relating what God says to us. The way to salvation has been provided.

One of the biggest shocks of my life was the discovery that there are people who actually do believe in God and do believe Jesus is the only Son of God and the only way of salvation, but don't give a hoot - don't want any part of it. They follow the "better to reign in hell than serve in Heaven" philosophy. I grew up very naive, believing that anyone who actually believed in God would greatly desire God's love and salvation.

But no. And I just can't relate to that. To have the creator of the Universe also create me and love me and relate to me every day is just beyond wonderful. From the first day of my life that I was old enough to understand, I've wanted nothing more than to know God in my life and know His love, no matter what.

Were this to be the end times, I know what that means.

If that time comes before I die of natural or unnatural causes, if it is required of us to take the mark or number, whatever that is, or be murdered, I will face that. I will be murdered for my belief in and love for God. Now THAT scares me. People who love God never scare me. People who DON'T love God will be the ones who murder me, and my family, and my loved ones, and those throughout the planet who do love God.

But that's the fact I accepted on the day I asked Jesus into my heart, confessing to Him that I am a sinner who needs Him.

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 10:42 AM

Okay, well, I hope I answered your question.

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 11:47 AM

Jank:

I share the sentiments that Smoke expressed, so these comments are basically restricted to my previous post, onwhich you commented. Preliniarily, let me say that I am an agnostic, but consider it most unlikely that a humanlike god or gods created the universe. I have long been interested in all types of religions, however, so I am generally interested in learning more.

1. I have no idea if each Beatle was arrested for drugs or, if so, how many times that occurred. I do know that both McCartney and Lennon were busted for marijuana. As you know, I think it is clear that mariguana has far less socially undesirable consequences than the legal drug, alcohol. If you mean to state that anybody who has been arrested for drugs can't be a religious person -- or, can't be a Christian -- I would be interested in any scripture that you believe supports that view.

2. In fact, what you and other fundamentalists do does impact on me. You all can vote (and I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't be allowed to). The first time I had an exchange with you on this topic, you had posted something to the effect that you support the candidate who you believe will give the Devil a black eye. I think it most unlikely that there is a literal Devil -- nonetheless, policies established by the government are in part made by representatives for whom fundamentalists such as yourself voted for on the basis that they somehow were more godly or acted more consistently with ancient texts. In my view, policies that are adopted that have been heavily influenced by this type of thinking are frightening because not based on a scientific approach to dealing with problems and finding solutions. I am serious about this -- I'm not saying this to needle anybody. If you vote -- and I know that you do -- you do affect my life. In fact, this is largely what my many of my posts about why the North should have let the old Confederacy secede are about. You don't have to be a genius to figure out that the policies of the national government are far more conservative than they would be if the states of the old Confederacy were not part of the union. It is in the states of the old Confederacy where Christian fundamentalists are most dominant.

3. You really don't answer why you reject the gods posited in other religious texts. Instead, you just talk about why you have faith in the Christian god. Maybe you are right, but the existence of that God defies natural laws and cannot be disapproved using the scientific method. For whatever reasons, you take the Christian God's existence on faith. Other people take other gods on faith, and undoubtedly could quote something from their holy texts as to why they believe on faith what they do.

4. I know many people who call themselves Christians who do not believe the Bible is literally true. I am curious if from your religious perspective, this means they are not Christians, even though they claim to be.

5. 3. I've quoted this before, but I guess you forgot it. In the Bible, James 1:27 defines religion as: "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." I don't read all topics on the bulletin boards, and never remember seeing this quote before. I intend to take a look at this verse and the context in which the statement appears -- in its translated form of course -- as I can't read the language in which it was originally written. The quote does not seem to me to preclude calling other systems "religions". Assisting the fatherless and widows is something I support, so maybe under your quoted sentence I practice religion.


smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 12:01 PM

"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."

I have seen Jan post it here before. I think it means that helping widows and orphans is a religious act, i.e. in accordance with God's wishes, not that it's a compete, all-inclusive definition of everything it means to be religious.

Now, how you interpret "keep himself unspotted from the world" is another pinhead full of angels altogether.

Drat. Now I have to drag out the concordance.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 12:15 PM

I could easily be wrong, but I don't think the word "religion" is defined anywhere else in the Bible.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 12:23 PM

Donna, I share your "some" of your concerns. Your doomsday scenario to me seems a bit farfetched, but I personally wouldn’t rule it out entirely. My dad is a fundamentalist, and one of the behaviors I see that come along with his set of beliefs, whether he is a good representative of those who hold the futurist view or not, is an orientation towards pessimism and a “let’s not do anything to save THIS world because it’s all going to end someday anyway” mentality, that sometimes comes along with his view. To me, that attitude that I’ve seen come with it in more than just my father was actually a factor for me in deciding which view I would hold on the matter, whether various people like it or not.

Donna: as far as your “cleansing” those who do not believe like themselves, though it’s not only the Christians who do this, I’ve seen atheists politically partake in this kind of behavior, I have heard it suggested that Christians should outcompete and outbreed non-Christians, is that what you are talking about? I'm not sure that means "put an end to their presence on the planet" however....????

Jank: from one friend to another, I would urge some care when you say, “Christians think this, Christians think that”, because of the possible implications that if I don’t, am I then not a Christian? Or are you the true one and I’m the fake one? I KNOW you didn’t mean that, but others who might not know you might not see it that way. I doubt it was your intention to separate other believers from yourself as wrong or your group as right in that way, I’m just urging a little more care in bandying about the word for the sake of others, because it’s easily mis-read. Thanks.


jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 12:27 PM

Tsk, you religious booger you! ha

The Bible defines Christian as "Christ like."

In most of the world today, Christian means NOT something. Not Jewish. Not Jewish. To them it has nothing to do with Jesus - at all.

But best I can tell from the Bible, Christian means someone who has repented of their sins to God, who has believed that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, and and has asked Jesus to come into their heart and save them.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say you can only accept Jesus into your heart if you....(will in blank).

Now - it is only through the name of Jesus that miracles have happened in front of me. So, that makes Him THE ONE!

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 12:44 PM

Right, but I bet it doesn't say, "For God so loved the world He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes that Iran should not have nuclear capabilities shall not perish, but shall have eternal life". I'm just saying before I knew you I was offended by your use of the word Christian being so specific, as in "Christians don't think Iran should have nuclear capabilities". Doesn't bother me now, the concerns listed in my previous post just seemed implicit, and think others who don't know you might have the same problem with it. Just a heads up, hope it didn't upset you.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 1:05 PM

No problem.

So how do I say it? Christians who believe the Bible as the literal, God-breathed Word do not want Iran to have nuclear capabilities because nut job has said he wants to wipe Israel off the face of the earth, and Christians who believe the Bible as the literal, God-breathed Word do not want Israel wiped off the face of the earth.

Is that any better at all?

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 1:21 PM

"Christ-like" might be how the Bible describes it, but I don't see many of those around, and it's not the first thing I think of when I hear the word. It applies to my friend Joy, the best, most loving person I know, and to very few others in my experience. The Dalai Lama is more Christ-like than a lot of the Christians I've known; hey, by that definition, I'M a better Christian than a lot of people who think they are.

It's fine to say what it means, something else to BE what it means. I don't see any of the rich white conservatives from the big Baptist church downtown out in Confederate Park (that's right) washing homeless peoples' feet like Jesus did. I don't see tolerance and pure love, never mind helping the fatherless and widows in their affliction. I see them calling the cops to chase them away if they sit under the shady overhang of their 6-story city-block of parking garage.

I don't want to be the first one to drop the H-bomb, but a lot of Christians don't walk it like they talk it.


smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 3:19 PM

Sorry Jank, I'm not sure you understood, and perhaps this is a me only complaint. Maybe a PM would work better in the future? If I've been callous I apologize. I just mean to say that I've met "Christians" who seem to be rather indifferent on some of those issues, and that perhaps they are merely political concerns rather than something that all Christians believe. I believe you meant to use the word "most" Christians perhaps, as that seems to be your view. I'm pointing out not a problem with you but a concern some of us have with exclusion that sometimes happens within Christian communities. Because it is an issue sometimes, I'm just suggesting more carefully chosen words. This really became bigger than I meant it to be, as usual with me and my clumsiness about these things. Of course, on the off chance you meant to exclude by words, such is your right, and we will respectfully disagree on this matter.

Donna, your concern about Christians acting in groups is imo is more of a "human" concern rather than a purely religious one. The massacre at My Lai might be a good example of non-specific humans acting in a group to commit atrocities. I agree something needs to be done and learned from such experiences, but I wouldn't label it as religion specific.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 3:21 PM

I meant "non-religion specific"

smoke
Smoke  (Level: 96.7 - Posts: 12009)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 4:36 PM

I just meant voting groups, Jerm, no massacres implied. My response was entirely "religion-specific" because that's what Jan asked. Brutal behavior by people in groups, or "pack mentality" is another subject entirely.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Mon, 15th Jun '09 5:31 PM

Oh, that makes sense. Thanks Donna.


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