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joelwdonnal
Joelwdonnal  (Level: 117.9 - Posts: 268)
Wed, 12th Dec '07 11:58 AM

THE IRONY OF IT ALL

Sad but true,and there fighting to keep the very people that are trying to stop them from doing so can have a safe and I might add Great country to live in...hmmm...who do we vote for. Have a great day all.
Joel and Donna

We need to show more sympathy for these people.
* They travel miles in the heat.
* They risk their lives crossing a border.
* They don't get paid enough wages.
* They do jobs that others won't do or are afraid to do.
* They live in crowded conditions among a people who speak a different language.
* They rarely see their families, and they face adversity all day every day.


I'm not talking about illegal Mexicans;
I'm talking about our troops!
Doesn't it seem strange that many Democrats and Republicans are willing to lavish all kinds of social benefits on illegals, but don't support our troops and are now threatening to de fund them?


missgeorge
Missgeorge  (Level: 63.0 - Posts: 388)
Wed, 12th Dec '07 12:17 PM

Right on! My husband and I are both veterans and I couldn't agree with you more!

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Wed, 12th Dec '07 1:52 PM

Amen. It's reprehensible. These soldiers and their families deserve the best.

joelwdonnal
Joelwdonnal  (Level: 117.9 - Posts: 268)
Wed, 12th Dec '07 2:06 PM

I'm all for people coming to America legally for a chance at a better life...illegally though is just not right...and then to give them better treatment then the men and women who protect us from anybody whom might become a threat to us on our own shores...ie...9/11...that's incomprehensible to me.

tuzilla
Tuzilla  (Level: 134.1 - Posts: 3778)
Wed, 12th Dec '07 2:29 PM

Amen!

But if you think they are mistreated now, wait until they become veterans. Then they will be looked on by those who were among their strongest supporters while on active duty as suddenly undesirables who should just go away and be quiet. The way we treat our vets is often shameful...and it is so often the staunchest defense spending conservatives that are the first to offer cuts in veterans budget items.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Wed, 12th Dec '07 6:31 PM

Amen!

1mks
1mks  (Level: 211.0 - Posts: 5883)
Wed, 12th Dec '07 6:42 PM

What they said!

lblewis
Lblewis  (Level: 47.0 - Posts: 31)
Wed, 12th Dec '07 11:41 PM

5 years ago my mother had a stroke. A real estate agent who had to give up her insurance due to the nature of her business. My sister and I spoke with a hospital financial rep who told us there was emergency medicaid. I soon learned that was available only to illegal immigrants. You can live, work and pay taxes in this country for years, but when the chips are down and you are no longer "a productive citizen" our government will do nothing for you except sue you, take your home, not provide you with healthcare including mental health. How very sad and disgusting.

stone
Stone  (Level: 35.0 - Posts: 259)
Thu, 13th Dec '07 1:43 AM

There are people who scammed the government out of millions of dollars after Katrina. I won't give details, but I can't work. Medicaid turned me down even though my doctors say I am disabled. Some days I don't have many problems, but other days are worse. For today I will survive somehow. I am getting mental help. BUT, the government is letting our young men and women fight and return to no mental help. There was a figure today of 5,000 suicides per year among veterans and active duty. Some of these are occurring after they get back home and some occur in Iraq and Afghanistan. It is shameful that these people do not get the help they need. The government used to promise health care for those who risk their lives for us (that includes those politicians being protected); now all they want to do is cut costs so they can fund bridges to nowhere or other pork projects.

surreyman
Surreyman  (Level: 260.9 - Posts: 2770)
Thu, 13th Dec '07 5:12 AM

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!

Kipling

erin0620
Erin0620  (Level: 77.2 - Posts: 737)
Thu, 13th Dec '07 7:45 AM

Rent "Sicko". Not a Michael Moore fan, myself, but this movie made me long to be a Cuban!

donden
Donden  (Level: 112.5 - Posts: 2127)
Thu, 13th Dec '07 9:22 AM


Good one Surreyman, timeless!

zoinkin
Zoinkin  (Level: 38.2 - Posts: 33)
Thu, 13th Dec '07 9:52 AM

OK, first, this hysteria about illegal aliens in this country is just nonsense. It's a paranoia politicians cooked up to try to score easy points through emotion and to keep you distracted from the real issues. It's nothing but fear mongering, and people are lapping it up.

Second, yes, our troops deserve support. Some politicians sent a bunch of people over to fight a war that violated international standards based upon false information (Iraq has nothing to do with the terrorists who were responsible for 9/11 -- and no WMDs) and then didn't even adequately equip the troops with armor and other supplies, all while shoving billions into wealthy corporations who were supposed to be helping the effort but have largely just stuffed the wallets of some well-connected rich people.

Third, for however bad our troops have it, the people in Iraq have it a million times worse. Some of that is a result of the instability in that region and which we are trying to improve of course, but some of it is based upon really abominable decisions made by our military leaders and politicians. For one example, it's standard operating procedure for certain teams of soldiers to leave military-related supplies around and then kill any Iraqi who comes to pick them up. The justification they give there is that anyone who would pick them up must somehow be an enemy who would use the weapons against our troops... not even thinking that desperately poor people might want to get it to sell, or salvage for parts, or even that people friendly with our troops might want to give them back to our troops. This is just reprehensible... it's outright murder for no reasonable benefit. We also had outsourced mercenaries running around shooting anyone in sight -- including politicians of the current Iraqi government we fought the war to install -- under some flimsy claim of "securing" the area. And the torture that has happened and still goes on over there is beyond any justification by any civilized person. On the one hand we have politicians telling us that we have to give them leeway because we are, after all, fighting a war, but then they claim that the people they have captured aren't captured as part of a war and then try to claim that international laws against torturing war prisoners thus don't apply... this is nonsense. And if you say, "Oh, hey, but they *could* be terrorists," keep in mind that the government can turn around and say that *you* might be one too. Anyone might be one. Human rights are inalienable (sound familiar?) and not to be discarded anytime some leader wants to. We shouldn't torture anyone in the first place (torture is one of the least effective methods of gaining reliable information anyway), and we shouldn't just lock people up and take away their rights until after a court of law has determined there is a real reason to do so. Good governments who are supposed to represent freedom and liberty should not be doing these things. We need to find the leaders who approve these tactics and toss them out and get the military leaders and politicians who believe in following laws and basic human rights.

Personally I think Sploofus isn't the place for these kind of political discussions -- after all, we are here to have fun -- but I get sick of people starting them and then expecting people to just chime in with the response they want to hear even if it isn't based in anything that makes sense. By all means let's support our troops, really support our troops (body armor, good benefits, not just continuing to keep them in harm's way after they already served the time they signed up for, proper counseling and medical attention, etc.), but we don't have to act paranoid about illegal aliens to do so, and we certainly do not have to go around murdering innocent people or torturing anyone... especially when all it does is convince the rest of the world that *we* are the bad guys and that they are justified in launching more terrorist attacks.

We have to just stop echoing back the sound bites politicians toss off on TV and get a handle on the real problems.

joelwdonnal
Joelwdonnal  (Level: 117.9 - Posts: 268)
Thu, 13th Dec '07 1:37 PM

Thanks for the response Zoinkin, and it is agreed that other countries have it bad too,but there are just too many bleeding hearts in america that would rather look the other way while illegals pour into the country and not enough that will stand by our troups while they defend our country. I thought this was a chat forum which anything can be brought up...not just sploofus stuff...sorry if I offended you or anyone else that read the thread.

mindmonkey
Mindmonkey  (Level: 270.6 - Posts: 295)
Thu, 13th Dec '07 1:58 PM

The unjustified paranoia about illegal aliens is scary but not unusual in the country's history. In the 1850s, it even resulted in a political party that almost elected a president. It had an apt name: The Know-Nothing Party. In the 1920s the paranoia led to the rise of the Ku Klux Klan which broadened its message to hate aliens (mostly from Eastern Europe). In the 1950s McCarthyism had a strong component who spoke out against "foreign ideologies." Today's outcry follows the pattern. People are worried about change and they are worried that their position in the country might change.

The problem for many is that the U.S. is bound together by ideology and that is different than almost any other country. If you subscribe to the ideals of democracy, etc. you can be an American--and it doesn't matter what race or ethnic group you come from. It also doesn't matter what language you speak, although history shows that the second generation always speaks the common language of English.

I spent most of last summer in Hawaii. It's worth going there just to see the jumble of cultures, peoples, languages and religions, and how well people basically can get along. There is strength in diversity if you come to accept it. The fact that people do so well in embracing that diversity under the umbrella of real democratic values speaks very well about the strength of the core values of this country.

jank0614
Jank0614  (Level: 67.1 - Posts: 4597)
Thu, 13th Dec '07 9:33 PM

Zoinkin - you're probably right about this not being the place for the discussion - but I'm still glad you wrote what you did. I don't agree with all of it, but heck, I don't agree with some of what I said today! So thanks for the post.

lettermanfan1
Lettermanfan1  (Level: 88.3 - Posts: 486)
Thu, 13th Dec '07 10:14 PM

My son is in the military and has been to the middle east 6 times. He has a wife and 2 children at Vandenberg AFB. It is scandalous what these people are paid! Even if they live on base, by the time they pay their phone bill, their BASIC cable bill and their car payment there is no money left over for....food! Or gas for their car! I can't wait for my son to get out next year and if my younger son or any of his friends wanted to join I would kick their butts all over town! I'm over it.
Leah

geophile
Geophile  (Level: 159.4 - Posts: 1521)
Thu, 13th Dec '07 11:39 PM

This is a story I saw only once on television news last week, never saw it again.

A young boy was traveling with his mother in the desert recently. The mother lost control of her car, it rolled down an embankment and she was killed. The little boy walked out of the car. A young Mexican boy had just crossed the border into the U.S. right near where the accident happened. He stayed with the young American all night. In the morning, the young Mexican boy gave up his chance to be in the U.S. and went to the authorities with the boy and he, of course, was returned to Mexico.

I couldn't help but wonder how many of us would have done the same thing. This is just a human interest story that I found fascinating.

embee
Embee  (Level: 86.7 - Posts: 362)
Thu, 13th Dec '07 11:43 PM

Geo,

I also heard the story you mentioned, but in the story I read, it was an adult Mexican man who stayed with the boy. Not sure it makes a difference, but either way, the story helped renew my faith in humanity.


lblewis
Lblewis  (Level: 47.0 - Posts: 31)
Fri, 14th Dec '07 1:06 AM

Zoinkin, with all due respect there are many many illegal immigrants in this country. A friend of mine is an illegal lesbian from Canada. It is sad that the term "illegal immigrants" seems to imply Latinos. We are having a broohaha in our state now because those that are in charge say we should offer in-state tuition to illegal immigrants attending our universities. I agree with them 100 percent. Our state constitution says that our schools must allow them in and educate K-12th grade. Why should we stop after that??

I think the initial post showed frustration at how we treat our own citizens
I will not be long and drawn out. Our government treats down and out American citizens regardless of situation horribly.

As to going into war with Iraq, I along with many other Americans am disgusted. When are the George Bushes of America going to understand that not everybody wants to think, live, settle problems, and have religous freedom like we do? That area has been fighting since biblical times ( whether a believer or not) always over religous beliefs.

If we really wanted to many of us (I am sure) could bring up China, but I won't. Sploofus is not a political chatroom, but if it happens to go there it does. I personally like to know my fellow sploofers think about our world and country.

Appologies for any misspelling. My typing and grammar is horrible this time of night
.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Fri, 14th Dec '07 5:29 AM

People that break the law by just coming here are going to be model citizens? Zonkin, what is your planet of origin?


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