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heidi
Heidi  (Level: 36.2 - Posts: 694)
Mon, 28th Jan '08 4:30 PM

PUNTUATION

Hopefully I can explain this well. In print movie and book titles are put in italics. Since one cannot do this-don't believe-on a computer, I was taught to put them in quotation marks. I just had a quiz returned because the movie titles came at the end of sentences. I have ALWAYs in every quiz I have submitted to Sploofus and everywhere else then put the period outside of the quotation marks-in essence it is not a quotation. The editor returned it saying that the puntuation belonged within the quotes. I know this is true with an actual quote but disagree here. I made the "corrections" as was suggested as I want my quiz actiated but do not agree-have Never had a quiz returned before for this. Your thoughts? Linda

heidi
Heidi  (Level: 36.2 - Posts: 694)
Mon, 28th Jan '08 4:31 PM

I know I did not spell punctuation correctly!

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Mon, 28th Jan '08 4:32 PM


I've always felt one should start with spelling and move on to punctuation.

heidi
Heidi  (Level: 36.2 - Posts: 694)
Mon, 28th Jan '08 4:37 PM

I choose to ignore that comment. It must be very difficult to be always brilliant and clever. Hopefully I will get an answer from an individual who is not as smart as you are-linda

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Mon, 28th Jan '08 4:52 PM


No hug?

The Americans put them inside, the British put them outside.

See if you can figure out if I'm kidding.

eesusbejesus
Eesusbejesus  (Level: 75.0 - Posts: 3645)
Mon, 28th Jan '08 5:37 PM

Punctuation goes inside the quotation marks.

heidi
Heidi  (Level: 36.2 - Posts: 694)
Mon, 28th Jan '08 6:36 PM

I have been checking various writing sources. To state on of them-the Purdue Writing Lab-the rule states: Put puntuation within the quotation marks when the punctuation refers to the quotation and OUTSIDE when it refers to the sentence itself. This is not quoted exactly and thus in not within quotation marks. It is just strange that editors are not in agreement on this. I have had numerous quizzes activated doing it this way and now one is returned. I suppose this is a whine but a legitimate one. Now the quiz resides in limbo until "my" editor gets back to it-Linda

linenlady
Linenlady  (Level: 159.1 - Posts: 306)
Mon, 28th Jan '08 6:46 PM

Well, punctuation goes inside the quotation marks, in the US, IF it's part of the material being quoted.
In this instance, Linda is not quoting material but instead emphasizing a title. e.g.:
Who was the director of the movie "Star Wars"?
or:
Steven Spielberg directed the movie "Star Wars".
but when quoting someone:
"Did you pick up the newspaper while you were out?" Mary asked.
It follows the grammatical convention.
Diane

heidi
Heidi  (Level: 36.2 - Posts: 694)
Mon, 28th Jan '08 7:16 PM

Thank YOU, Linenlady. Would hate to think that henceforth I would have to submit my quizzes doing something I know to be incorrect just so they will activate-Linda

chyenn
Chyenn  (Level: 202.6 - Posts: 1332)
Mon, 28th Jan '08 7:17 PM


Mitchy recently had a quotation marks issue also.

http://www.sploofus.com/bbs_detail.sp?post=29376&cID=4

What's the definitive answer? Editors, please?

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Mon, 28th Jan '08 8:40 PM


No one ever believes me on anything .

The Brits put periods outside the quotation marks, we put them inside. It is an anachronism going back to the time of printing presses.

Wikipedia:L


Punctuation

The traditional convention in American English is for commas and periods to be included inside the quotation marks, regardless of whether or not they are not part of the quoted sentence, while the British style places them in or outside of the quotation marks in accordance with whether or not the punctuation is part of the quoted phrase. The American rule is derived from typesetting while the British rule is grammatical (see below for more explanation). Although the terms American style and British style are used it is not as clear cut as that because at least one major British newspaper prefers typesetters' quotation (punctuation inside) and BBC News uses both styles, while scientific and technical publications, even in the U.S., almost universally use logical quotation (punctuation outside unless part of the source material), due to its precision.

As with many such differences, the American rule follows an older British standard. The typesetter’s rule was standard in early 19th century Britain; the grammatical rule was advocated by the extremely influential book The King’s English, by Fowler and Fowler.

* “Carefree” means “free from care or anxiety.” (American style)
* “Carefree” means “free from care or anxiety”. (British style)

heidi
Heidi  (Level: 36.2 - Posts: 694)
Mon, 28th Jan '08 9:22 PM

Linenlady gets the point. There are separate rules which apply to things like book titles, poems, movies, songs and such. It gets a litlle stickier when one gets into stanzas in poems and such. You simply cannot say that in every instance in the US punctuation goes within the quotes-doesn't even look right. That is why I want my quiz back soon so I can fix it back as it was when i first submitted it if enough folks on ethe editing team understand the rules correctly. Hate to have a mistake go through that I will then be responsible for making albeit under pressure-Linda

linenlady
Linenlady  (Level: 159.1 - Posts: 306)
Mon, 28th Jan '08 9:36 PM

Then I'm clearly mistaken and I apologize, Heidi. I seem to have been using the logical and/or British convention.
I think, though, after looking at the Quiz Authoring Guide, that it seem to be fairly unspecific as to what's acceptable. Perhaps that's what makes the difference in what one editor or the other might request of you?
Diane

heidi
Heidi  (Level: 36.2 - Posts: 694)
Mon, 28th Jan '08 9:42 PM

We have been told that editors are chosen from different parts of the globe. Guess way back when I was taught the British system-only thing I can figure out. Should not the editors then accept both? Linda

eesusbejesus
Eesusbejesus  (Level: 75.0 - Posts: 3645)
Mon, 28th Jan '08 10:30 PM

I had the "punctuation marks inside the quotations" rule beat into me by a college professor of English. It was also the only way allowed on legal court documents & pleadings.

Mitchy's quotation mark issue is different than this. In that instance, the editors are making her use quotation marks around a song title, even if it isn't being used in a sentence, which is incorrect. If the item is not being shown as offset from other text on either side of it, then no quotation marks or italics are necessary. If you go to that thread, you will see that Tuzilla laid it out nicely and correctly.

Editors should use a standard and it should be the CORRECT standard. This is the biggest reason I refrain from writing quizzes. I would have to go all postal if I was "corrected" incorrectly.


heidi
Heidi  (Level: 36.2 - Posts: 694)
Mon, 28th Jan '08 10:41 PM

Since we are international both in playing and editing I believe either way should be axccepatble as long as it is consistent throughout the Quiz. Either that or all editors should agree on a "correct" form. It is not fair for players to get editors that expect different practices when we have no choice in who the editor might be. The previous quiz I wrote with different questions/same topic was activated with a note say "Nice,neat Quiz" and then this one where I was told every sentence had an error or errors-consistency, please-Linda

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Tue, 29th Jan '08 1:13 AM


A converse opinion -- who cares?

heidi
Heidi  (Level: 36.2 - Posts: 694)
Tue, 29th Jan '08 5:18 AM

One could say "who cares" about many posts made in the forums. This is an issue that addresses both writers and editors and believe it merits a reply from an Editor acting as an Editor and not just a "brilliant," overly "witty" and often intimidating player-Linda

zeedee
Zeedee  (Level: 224.7 - Posts: 1088)
Tue, 29th Jan '08 5:35 AM

Just to muddy the waters:
I was taught that periods and commas always go INSIDE quotation marks; that colons and semicolons always go OUTSIDE the quotation marks; and that, for question marks and exclamation points, placement depends on whether the quoted material is a question or exclamation -- as in Linenlady's sample sentences.

salzypat
Salzypat  (Level: 156.5 - Posts: 5316)
Tue, 29th Jan '08 9:05 AM

Heidi, I don't believe Smaug was putting you down for your concern over this. I certainly hate to take a chance on interpreting what Smaug means, but I took his comment to mean the same thing I was thinking: Who cares?

I understand the editors want the quizzes to be as professional and correct as possible but I am not sure that it's all that important as to whether the period is inside or outside the quotation marks. I think that's getting a little nitpicky for a trivia quiz site.

In the journalism field, that's a whole other issue. We'd better know the correct punctuation and use it or someone will be pointing out the error of our ways to us.

Just for the record, which is what some of you have stated, the AP Stylebook says these long-established printers' rules are to be used:

-- The period and the comma always go within the quotation marks.

-- The dash, the semicolon, the question mark and the exclamation point go within the quotation marks when they apply to the quoted matter only. They go outside when they apply to the whole sentence.

This issue has been addressed before but it seems to keep cropping up. Again, it would seem sufficient to insist on correct spelling, no typing errors, proper sentence construction and presentation of the quiz in a clear manner. Beyond that, to quote Smaug, "Who cares?"

If there are going to be these hard-and-fast rules, as several of us suggested in previous posts, then all editors should have an AP stylebook (or whatever stylebook is chosen) and go by that so all editors are on the same page. (Pardon the pun!)

Sploofus Editor
Sploofizz (Editor)  
Tue, 29th Jan '08 9:09 AM

There is no definitive answer here. The best option, as stated above, is to stay consistent within your own quiz. If you get an editor who feels you should handle it differently, you should either change it (if it's not that important to you), or resubmit with a note that says, "I follow the ______ style guide rules. I have remained consistent throughout the quiz. I prefer it to stand this way."

No harm, no foul.

Sploofus Editor
Sploofalina (Editor)  
Tue, 29th Jan '08 9:36 AM

Thank you, Pat. You've touched on exactly what I was about to say. Several of you have asked for a definitive ruling on this. That ruling is: "There can't be one." or: "There can't be one".
Tomato, Tomahto". It's all the same thing.
Linda, you and the editor are both correct; but if the Sploofus Quiz Authoring Guide had it only one way, then too many others (who are also correct) would be bewildered and justifiably angry.
There will always be issues of misunderstandings. I sincerely suggest that when you question a correction, you send a support ticket, or return a quiz with the request that the matter be given a larger input of opinion. The important point is to PLEASE communicate. If it can be an open and non-combative manner, that's good too.
A style book is always a good idea, Pat, and we've talked about it often. At the moment the Quiz Authoring Guide is it, and Justin has indicated that he'd like it as non-specific as possible to allow for the huge spectrum of writing styles.

Sploofus Editor
Sploofalina (Editor)  
Tue, 29th Jan '08 9:37 AM

You see, we're consistent. Sploofizz, GMTA! I just ramble on longer than you.

heidi
Heidi  (Level: 36.2 - Posts: 694)
Tue, 29th Jan '08 10:57 AM

THANK YOU!

siouxsie
Siouxsie  (Level: 104.6 - Posts: 145)
Tue, 29th Jan '08 11:49 AM

The post by Zeedee is the most succinct and accurate. She and I are both former English teachers. Because of the use of the word style, some may think this is a matter about which one may have a choice. Actually, in standard American English, there is only one way to do it. Brits may do it differently. But because this is originally and predominantly an American site, I believe it is okay for editors to enforce the American rules of usage.

smaug
Smaug  (Level: 141.2 - Posts: 2772)
Tue, 29th Jan '08 11:59 AM

Salyz has a good post, the AP Style guide should be the bible.

Several months ago I suggested this and was told the cost would be prohibitive to give each editor one.

At the time I suggested one of two solutions:

-- go on Amazon and buy used ones for a few dollars. They don't change much if at all year-to-year.

Example:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0011A5XAA/ref=pd_bbs_olp_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201625694&sr=8-1

-- go to APStylebook.com and get a one year on-line subscription for $25:

http://www.apstylebook.com/


Or, who cares on some anal little tweak that is open to different international interpretations. My only gripe would be if the yip-yap delays the quiz launch. Just say to the editor "fine, whatever" and get it approved. You can always go edit it the way you want it later if its such a panty buncher to you.




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