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erin0620
Erin0620  (Level: 77.2 - Posts: 737)
Fri, 1st Feb '08 2:42 PM

BROADER SPECTRUM OF OPINIONS

As part of my job I occasionally compose letters for those who find difficulty expressing themselves or have low writing skills. Recently, I wrote a thank you note to those who donated to the memorial fund of a young man who was murdered about a year ago.

The situation is very heartbreaking. It seems the (now) deceased gentleman (18) was attempting to burgle a car stereo in an apartment complex parking lot. The owner of the car (24) heard the alarm, grabbed his gun, went outside, and shot him in the chest. He is being charged with murder. There had been a loud public outcry that the deceased young man got "what he deserved", that property is allowed to be defended in this manner, and that this is in no way a murder. My understanding of the law is that only when you are faced with a physical threat may you shoot, but I am sure it varies. From what I gather, both boys were very sweet and loved by many, but grew up on "opposite sides of the track." Now, (dependent upon the trial, the accused could get 65 years,) both boy's lives are over.

The loudest and majority of individuals have been those claiming the accused's total innocence. I'm wondering if this is merely a southern US opinion, where guns are so common. However, it seems to me that these circumstances, though the act was illegal and morally wrong, did not warrant deadly force. But I also feel the murder charge is extreme. I would love a broader spectrum of opinions from those across the US and world. Thanks.
-Erin

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Fri, 1st Feb '08 5:31 PM

Seriously, I think the murder charge is justified, if he wasn't in threat of physical harm, my god, it was just a stereo. Get over it partner. Just my opinion from the Northwest, -Stout

sargon
Sargon  (Level: 112.0 - Posts: 1256)
Fri, 1st Feb '08 5:52 PM

I read about a man in his 70s that owned a second house where he stored items. He was having trouble with some teenage boys breaking in and stealing stuff. He figured out when they were most likely to strike and would sit in the house with a shotgun. One night he shot and killed a boy that was climbing in a window.

He was arrested because he had set up an ambush. He was able to beat the charges.

erin0620
Erin0620  (Level: 77.2 - Posts: 737)
Fri, 1st Feb '08 6:06 PM

According to both the witness and the (confessed) "suspect", the man was in the car stealing the radio, not approaching him in any way, and perhaps not even aware of him. He was found slumped over the driver's seat, with the radio already removed. The suspect then dropped the gun and fled. These were both kids, I don't think murder, but at the very least man slaughter. I am just amazed at how many people think it was totally justifiable.

eesusbejesus
Eesusbejesus  (Level: 75.0 - Posts: 3645)
Fri, 1st Feb '08 7:15 PM

Wow. Tragic for both. I think there's a line between someone taking your stuff and someone threatening you or your family. If its just possessions, call the police. A car stereo in no way justifies a death. What's next? I shot him because I thought he was thinking about stealing from me?

However, its a different story if that individual is in my house with me and/or my children. I guarantee the intruder would have a serious case of lead poisoning. I can only assume that someone who was bold enough to come into my home uninvited did not have honorable intentions. I've become really staunch on this point after the murders and abductions of the Groene family. That was just an hour and a half away. Shasta & Dylan Groene were playing out in their front yard when a sexual predator from the midwest happened to drive by. He staked out their home, learned the habits of the family and the family dog, broke in and murdered the two adults, and the 13 year old brother. With a hammer. He then abducted the two children, repeatedly molested them, and eventually killed Dylan. That story will haunt me forever. I always wonder "what if it had been my country road he happened to travel?"

Lead poisoning.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Fri, 1st Feb '08 7:39 PM

I agree that the fact that the man stealing the stereo was not inside the fellows house should make a big deal of difference. If someone is in your in house, like in the case of the 70 year old man, that's a threatening situation and its hard to know if you are in danger or not. In the case of the stereo and the car, the "victim" of theft did not need to place himself in danger by approaching the theif in the parking lot. It seems like like a conviction on voluntary manslaughter might fit this case, but it gets a little old to see people from the right side of the tracks never being fully punished no matter what they do. I wouldn't want him off the hook with nothing!!

phitzy1
Phitzy1  (Level: 66.4 - Posts: 873)
Fri, 1st Feb '08 7:43 PM

Firstly, Erin, I want your job.

Nextly, (wow guess I'll never get it) I think that perhaps Manslaughter or Murder 2 would be a better charge. From your description of the crime, there was no premeditation involved, just reaction.

As for my opinion...well, we don't keep guns; I'm not anti-gun, just really don't feel comfortable with one in the house. However, I am a collector of "junk-yard art", found metals welded together in interesting fashions, and have several heavy ones scattered here and there that could be used as a weapon...That's how I am. I think when purchasing an object, a. what are the aesthetic values and b. can it be used as a weapon...

A story to that end: When we lived in Kalamazoo (my ex-husband and I) we collected antiques ('nother subject, never again). I bought a lightning rod and actually had to pull it from it's stand one evening...party crasher unwilling to leave...until he saw the rod and an angry as all get out woman holding it...

Anything can be a weapon, it's how one chooses to use it.

salzypat
Salzypat  (Level: 156.5 - Posts: 5316)
Sat, 2nd Feb '08 11:43 AM

It's unfortunate the young man's first instinct was to defend a car radio that could be replaced. Two lives cannot. No, I don't think he should put away for 65 years, but he definitely needs to be prosecuted. If he wouldn't have had the gun, he probably would have just called the police.

I used to have a drug user living next door to me. I'm pretty sure he was on meth. During the night he would run around my house shining a flashlight in my windows. A couple nights I got so scared I went to a motel for the rest of the night. Another night I slept in my vehicle in my son's driveway (I didn't want to wake them up in the middle of the night). Yes, I contacted the police but their response was that he really hadn't "done" anything, and they could contact him but but he might take it out on me. I finally got to where I would sit up until 3:30 or 4 a.m. every night. If he hadn't bothered me by then, I figured he wouldn't.

That's about the time I seriously thought about getting a gun. But I didn't. My son said I'd probably get scared some time and shoot some member of the family using their own key to come in the house.

Know what I keep for as a "weapon"? Have you ever used a can of wasp spray? That spray will shoot 15-20 feet. I figure aim for the eyes. Sure the intruder can use it against you but isn't that true of any weapon?

My best defenses are my two German shepherds who raise a lot of ruckus and are intimidating.

Keep us informed as to what happens in this case. It will be interesting to see how it unfolds. Unfortunately, everyone has already lost in this case.

eesusbejesus
Eesusbejesus  (Level: 75.0 - Posts: 3645)
Sat, 2nd Feb '08 12:46 PM

I love wasp spray. We get a lot of nests out here so I love to spray, shriek, & run.

I also keep a 34 inch, aluminum, "big red" softball bat in the corner next to my side of the bed. Ever see the movie "Signs?" Swing away!

larefamiliaris
Larefamiliaris  (Level: 135.2 - Posts: 877)
Mon, 4th Feb '08 6:19 AM

At the risk of over-simplifying, and to quote Salzypat, :"If he wouldn't have had the gun, he probably would have just called the police."
Without getting into an NRA vs non-NRA issue, and to quote an apparent American hero, :"...that's all I have to say about that."

Shooting someone who's stealing from you, without endangering your person or your family - and possibly without even asking the thief to 'Stop!" from the look of the situation described - is a hideous and petulant display of anger.Would you let a 2 year old kid bash another over the head because they had a toy taken from them?
It's probably not worth a 65 yr sentence, but it has to be punished as a fairly brutal and callous piece of retribution. For me, the only possible ameliorating circumstance is if the the shooter is in some way mentally challenged - beyond thinking it's ok to kill someone who's swiping your stereo that is.

It's probably worth pointing out that I'm not actually as Liberal as I come across either, (although who is? ), being a frequent member of the 'just gimme 5 minutes in a locked room with them' party. And, for the record, I wouldnae be using art or sporting equipment: it'd be head, shoulders, knees and toes.

tuzilla
Tuzilla  (Level: 134.0 - Posts: 3778)
Mon, 4th Feb '08 10:53 AM

I have had very similar conversations in the past with one of my best friends, who is now retired from the state police, and also with our county sheriff of over 20 years who I sometimes share ushering duties with at church, and who I may be going to New Orleans with to do a rebuilding project for the local country sheriff who has been without a permanent home since Katrina.

The owner of the stereo had every right to confront the thief with a gun, and even detain him at gun point under the assumption that he was not otherwise violating an ordinance or law related to possession of the handgun in his locale. He did not have the right to kill this person unless presented with imminent danger from which he could not escape. The law tends to be tricky in this area.

If you confront a person outside and kill them, their lawyer is going to stand a reasonable chance of barbecuing you. The same for the government. You are going to need to convince the jury that you were presented with imminent danger and in an inescapable situation. The thief needed to have gun or lethal weapon, or something a "reasonable man" would view as a lethal weapon. Or, you could be elderly, handicapped or trapped by a fence or hedge, or in a garage and the thief was between you and the exits. A 24-year old who shoots an 18-year old that is not lethally armed according to that proverbial reasonable man is in trouble from the git go. The thief's attorney is going to say you could have run to safety, fired a warning shot. They will asked if you had already called 911, and whether 911 told you not to go out there. The jury is going to listen to that.

While the cynic is going to claim the government is irate because it doesn't want citizens defending themselves, the truth is somewhat different. They will say they are concerned about appearing to support a nation of Charles Bronson Death Wish vigilantes who will start shooting at the drop of a hat. They will also say they are concerned that a person will have their gun taken away from them and used on them. It is not an uncommon occurrence.

Similar situations inside your house are also tricky. If you walk into your house and confront a burglar, and then shoot (wound or kill) them, you may lose your house and even your freedom if you were not trapped. You could have escaped back out the front door. If they had a gun or charged you with a knife, you have an argument. But, if they are walking out of the kitchen and you are clear across the living room by the door, you have a problem, especially if you only wound the person (I didn't say that).

I guess, at the end of the day, I feel no one should lose their life over a car stereo, not the owner or the thief. The owner does have the right to defend his property, and he should be able to hold a thief for the police. The thief need to spend a stretch of time thinking about a change of life in a small room. The problem is the courts and penal system seems reluctant to give the thief what they need, and those that do usually can't afford it because it costs a lot of money and taxpayers balk at it.

It kind of reminds me of a record store at the mall where I worked in the 70s. They had a problem with kids shoplifting records. They would catch them and turn them over to the local police. A week later the kid is back in the store doing it again.

They shifted gears. When they caught a shoplifter, they took him in the back like they always did. But, instead of calling the police, they beat the *&%$! out of them. After a few kids showed up at school, the hangout, whatever all lumpy and sore, the word got around not to steal there. Shoplifting virtually ceased.

Needless to say, I do have mixed feeling running through this issue.

erin0620
Erin0620  (Level: 77.2 - Posts: 737)
Mon, 4th Feb '08 1:38 PM

Thank you all so much for taking the time to respond.

I think many of the Southern US states instill their youths with a very black and white picture of what is moral and immoral, without taking humanity into account. We can never fully walk in another's shoes; we will never know everyone's circumstances. I think that is why many rely on preconceived notions and prejudice in making quick judgments. Shoot first, get details later. Stop them, by any means or force, necessary or not.

I am very appreciative to see more open mindedness from my sploofus posse. Thanks again.


felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Wed, 6th Feb '08 8:25 PM

Gentleman thief? What color is the sky in your world? Law breakers run the risk of such. I am from the South and live in a very rural area. I'd shoot a trespasser and take a chance on a jury of my peers being sane. I don't think I'd be asking question of a thief. What did this gentleman expect?

rnmorg
Rnmorg  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 690)
Wed, 6th Feb '08 11:10 PM

a-a-a-a-and there went the openmindedness. Time of death? 2300 EST.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Thu, 7th Feb '08 7:24 AM

Oh I have to agree with you to be open minded? Sorry I'm not sure on how having an opinion and protecting my property makes me close minded. Maybe you can explain how we lost our rights. Has Hillary already been elected? I was only out of town for two days. I missed what you thought the punk deserved for breaking a Commandment?

erin0620
Erin0620  (Level: 77.2 - Posts: 737)
Thu, 7th Feb '08 7:49 AM

Ooohhh, Kitty, while your bait is awfully alluring, I aint takin' it.

But, to anyone who happens to read your post and may not know, the Bible in NO WAY teaches that killing is an okay judgement or punishment for one man to bestow upon another, in retaliation for theft. Even the Old Testament says "an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth".....NOT "stereo for a life". And there are many more passages regarding forgiveness and passivity.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Thu, 7th Feb '08 7:59 AM

Thanks for answering my question. Oh wait you didn't. What was the man, who probably felt threatened to do? Call the Welfare Department and arrange free cheese. Are you saying we should let all thieves out of jail? I can't find it in my (tiny) heart to praise a thief, but that's just me. Next time you ask for opinions please qualify that you only want one's that agree with your own. God bless America. Have a great day.

erin0620
Erin0620  (Level: 77.2 - Posts: 737)
Thu, 7th Feb '08 8:28 AM

Felix, you're barely making sense.

It is against the law to shoot someone who is not threatening you. Both Biblical law and Tennessee law. The witness AND the shooter said that there was no imminent threat. The thief was in no way approaching the owner of the car, he was inside of it, and likely did not know he was even being approached by the car's owner.

I think when we say "open minded" we mean being able to see things from many perspectives, including that of a thief. So, because your viewpoint seems a bit narrow, it is correct to say you are not being open minded about this.

No one has praised the thief, only mourned his death and questioned why it happened.

I never chastised you for your opinion, nor asked you not to give it. I only told you I wouldn't take the bait because it seemed you were being a bit aggresive and I didn't want to get wrapped up in drama (too late! :D). For the most part, I really enjoy what you have to say, and have much respect for you. I'm just really sensitive about this particular case. I'm sorry if you felt disrespected.

kaelin
Kaelin  (Level: 49.2 - Posts: 1685)
Thu, 7th Feb '08 1:01 PM

Boy this strikes me hard...I don't condone the shooting but I sure as hell understand the feeling especially due to what happened to my brother a few weeks ago.

My brother is legally blind. He is no longer able to have a job at the paint and body shops where he is absolutely the top painter. He began drawing when he was 3, you'd never believe he was legally blind. His wife, Amy, is also legally blind, and has very little sight. My brother, with the aid of very thick glasses is able to drive. He has what is called occular albinism.

When my brother was no longer able to get jobs because he could be replaced by 3 "immigrants" at 3/4 of the costs, he began catering to customers who appreciated the finesse and high quality of his work. Unfortunately, with the rising costs of everything, his meticulous work was overpowered by less money in the pocket. So now, my brother lives on SSI, which is not much because of being married, and is able to pick up a few extra cents now and then.

He saved over a year and a half for a stereo for his 1994 Jeep. His wifes parents gave them an 800.00 digital camera this Christmas that they could BOTH actually see the screen on. My brother said he cried, becaue he felt so blessed.

Two weeks ago, shopping at the same Target he has shopped at in Dallas for 17 years, while he and his wife were inside the store in broad daylight, 3 thieves driving a late model black SUV smashed the drivers side window of my brothers car. Although he had removed the faceplate, the theives had tools and the ripped the console out, stealing the stero.

My brother and my sister in law had been at the arboretum, using their new camera, to take pictures and had stored it back in the case, and put it in the glove compartment, and unfortunately, the theives opened that, and stole the camera as well.

The scene was caught by video tape, however, the license plate was obscured, and the theives wore hoodies. There was blood on the seat where one of the theives had sat on the glass, but my brother tells me the police didn't care, that they were not going to waste money on expensive DNA testing for him. He never had comprehensive insurance as it was too expensive for him, and now, has to come up with the money all on his own because the breaking of a window due to robbery comes under comprehensive.

So down to the nitty gritty - If I had the opportunity to shoot these guys would I do it - yep - I sure would (not dead - but they might prefer it)...so if that makes me whatever someone might think that it makes me, I can live with that.

rnmorg
Rnmorg  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 690)
Thu, 7th Feb '08 1:23 PM

====Maybe you can explain how we lost our rights.

And what right was that?

====Has Hillary already been elected?

The year is young. Be prepared, my friend

====I missed what you thought the punk deserved for breaking a Commandment?

Hmm. There's a whole SLEW of commandments, but only ONE of them merits the death penalty, at least in the country *I* live in. Also in the country that I live in, a criminal gets to be judged by a jury of his peerS, not by an overheated pre-adult with a gun.


You say you're "from the south" and "rural" like these traits should be the stronghold for cowboy justice. Don't lump all southerners in the same pile with you. Rational people in all regions of the country know that shooting someone to prevent them from stealing a radio out of your car is wrong.

erin0620
Erin0620  (Level: 77.2 - Posts: 737)
Thu, 7th Feb '08 1:28 PM

The only thing I think that makes you, Lorri, is human. I, too, have much greater urges toward revenge when it isn't me, but a loved one being hurt or wronged. I only wanted to see if I was alone in my feeling that theft does not predicate murder. Nearly everyone here (in Tennessee) has the same opinion as Felix's, not mine. I am very appreciative to those who wrote they felt the punishment did not fit the crime, but also to anyone who voiced their dissonance. Love to all.

erin0620
Erin0620  (Level: 77.2 - Posts: 737)
Thu, 7th Feb '08 1:32 PM

especially ROBIN!!! (you rock)

papajensai
Papajensai  (Level: 193.2 - Posts: 1025)
Thu, 7th Feb '08 2:54 PM

One hallmark of a civil society is that its citizens defer the use of force to their government, except in exceptional circumstances such as defense against the threat of violence.

Stealing a car stereo is a crime. So is killing someone without justification. Both the people in the original scenario are criminals. If you choose to break the law by stealing other people's property, or killing people who don't present a physical threat to you or others, then you should expect the penalties to be applied to you for breaking the law.

I might feel like killing someone for doing something despicable, but it would be illegal to do so, and I shouldn't be surprised if I'm treated as a criminal. If someone seriously threatened me or my peeps, I'd kill him to prevent his violence, and I'd expect that the law would be on my side. I don't think it's really so hard to understand the difference.

erin0620
Erin0620  (Level: 77.2 - Posts: 737)
Thu, 7th Feb '08 3:22 PM

You are 100% correct about the legality issues. What surprised me was how many people (in this town) were outraged that the shooter was charged with anything at all.

I regret bringing this situation up, a bit. It was weighing heavily on me, still is.

At present, I do not often get an opportunity to voice my own opinions, much less argue them, so I sometimes use this forum as a litmus test when trying to garner views other than the very narrow one to which I am exposed. Thank you for allowing me that.

in summary: I dint mean t'start nuthin', ya'll.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Thu, 7th Feb '08 7:19 PM

Lmao! I didn't lump anyone anywhere. I said where I was from. It's good to know that a lot of Sploofus points does not always mean a lot of common sense. Name one thing worse that a scum sucking thief. Can you?

erin0620
Erin0620  (Level: 77.2 - Posts: 737)
Thu, 7th Feb '08 7:27 PM

yes, Felix, much worse.


felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Thu, 7th Feb '08 7:30 PM

Footnote
The South was not responsible for:

Letting murderers out of jail on the weekend
The tax dollars wasted on the Big Dig
Legalizing same sex marriages
Reelecting drunk drivers that kill
Or waving 911 Hijacker right through Logan airport

So each regions is different and that's what makes us all America. The title of the thread almost leads one to believe that we have freedom of speech.

linenlady
Linenlady  (Level: 159.1 - Posts: 306)
Thu, 7th Feb '08 7:34 PM

How about a pedophile? A wife abuser? An animal abuser? A child abuser?
A person who shoots another who isn't presenting them with any physical threat? I suppose it's all relative. I have a friend (a nurse) who counsels HIV/AIDS victims and while interviewing one woman she asked her where she got her money for her drugs and was greatly relieved when the woman told her she was passing bad checks. It was so much better than selling sex and passing the disease on to others.

erin0620
Erin0620  (Level: 77.2 - Posts: 737)
Thu, 7th Feb '08 7:43 PM

I titled the thread. I have in no way impeded your free speech, I have thanked you for it. No one has done anything to you apart from disagreeing with you. Are they entitled to their own free speech? I understand that it's fun for you to reach into people's underwear drawer and wad them all up in a bunch, but as far as I'm concerned, I have heard your opinion, while I may not agree, I respect your right to have it. And, buh-bye.



rnmorg
Rnmorg  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 690)
Thu, 7th Feb '08 8:27 PM

Footnote
The South was not responsible for: blah blah blah.

I was not attempting to indict the south, but protect it from YOU.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Thu, 7th Feb '08 8:30 PM

I used to have blond hair maybe you can drive me off of a bridge and kill me to shut me up. I hear that's legal in your neck of the woods.

rnmorg
Rnmorg  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 690)
Thu, 7th Feb '08 8:45 PM

Yeah, I already got that you have heard of Chappaquiddick from your little "footnote." Ted Kennedy was convicted of leaving the scene of an accident. Are you saying that he was guilty of something else?

Sorry if I am not insulted by your using regional references as your choice of weapon in this whole discussion; it's really rather amusing, actually. So, if you'd like to return to the original thread, I believe we left off with:

====Maybe you can explain how we lost our rights.

And what right was that?



felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Thu, 7th Feb '08 8:49 PM

I believe I have the right to protect my property. You've obviously never been to many parts of the South. I'm almost sure you reward law breakers there. It is much different here. I can give you an address if you'd like to try to break in my home.

rnmorg
Rnmorg  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 690)
Thu, 7th Feb '08 8:51 PM

The issue was not "breaking into a home," it was stealing a stereo out of a car. You can't even say that the guy was trespassing on the guy's property because it was in front of an apartment building. Thanks for playing.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Thu, 7th Feb '08 8:55 PM

LOL! You're hopeless! I have a new stereo in my car which is in my garage. I left the door cracked for you. Hope to see you soon.

texlewee
Texlewee  (Level: 34.1 - Posts: 601)
Thu, 7th Feb '08 9:06 PM

In 2007, Texas enacted a law regarding a similar situation.

Governor Rick Perry's office said on Tuesday that he had signed a new law that expands Texans' existing right to use deadly force to defend themselves "without retreat" in their homes, cars and workplaces.

The key words there are DEFEND THEMSELVES. Note it doesn't say "defend thier stuff".

However, if someone is robbing my car, and I catch them, and they DON'T freeze and lie down? I'm not sure what I would do.....

Should the man have killed the robber? No, IMO. and I am as PRO second amendment as a person can be.

If the man was being carjacked? Kill him DEAD. I disagree with the laws that imply that you should "retreat if possible" in your own home. Apparently Texas agrees. Thus the "without retreat" language.



texlewee
Texlewee  (Level: 34.1 - Posts: 601)
Thu, 7th Feb '08 9:13 PM

RNmorg,

I do believe we have lost plenty of our rights. But not just because of the libs or pubbies.

We no longer have full rights under the second amendment. My second amendment rights are heavily limited by what the government decides I can own.

Free speech is limited by hate crimes legislation and McCain-Feingold. Our property rights are being stolen by abuse of eminent domain laws allowing municipalities to force land and home owners to sell and vacate for more profitable corporate ventures.

So have we lost our rights? ABSOFReakinglutely.

rnmorg
Rnmorg  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 690)
Thu, 7th Feb '08 9:24 PM

Tex: I completely agree with that legislation, and if I happen to have a weapon on me if someone tries to carjack me, then the chips will fall where they may; especially if my children are in the car. AND if someone finishes breaking into our home after hearing warning growls from "Cujo" and "Fang" then they deserve what's coming to them and I'm sure not going to be bandaging up their bloody stumps. In terms of the rights, I am quite sure that we have lost some, no doubt, but what I was referring to was Felix's statement that convicting the shooter of murder means that some "right" was violated. Thank you for a balanced and well-reasoned response.

kaelin
Kaelin  (Level: 49.2 - Posts: 1685)
Fri, 8th Feb '08 1:57 AM

Is there a link somewhere to the full story of this event? If so, I would like it so I can read it.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Fri, 8th Feb '08 2:19 AM

"I'm wondering if this is merely a southern US opinion, where guns are so common."
I don't see any problem with Felix attempting to make a point based on his origin in the country, it's part of Erin's original question!!

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Fri, 8th Feb '08 3:05 AM

Thank you Tex and Stoutyoungladd. I never claimed to be balanced, But Tex did add balance to to conversation. My opinions were based on my personal belief which as Erin stated is not uncommon among Southerners. I would never attempt to lump persons from any region, ethnic background (except the Irish) or religion into a single group.

As a national sales manager I do notice in dealing with salespersons all across the country that certain Northern people have an arrogance about them. Just because we choose not to have our neighbors two feet away from us and don't require a silly trade union to have a good job in the South does not mean we are not good people. Here we always expect many New Englanders to take the Kerry approach and try to force there opinion on others with arrogance. It's really funny if you are on this end of it. If you'll notice I stated my opinion but didn't feel the need to slam anyone else's.

God Bless America

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Fri, 8th Feb '08 4:23 AM

You don't have to rely on your experiences Felix, I can tell you I have derogatory stereotypes about people from the middle to southeast, don't know where they come from or why I have them, but they are there.

rnmorg
Rnmorg  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 690)
Fri, 8th Feb '08 5:15 AM

Lorri: I did a search based on Erin's description and found it here:

http://www.post-trib.com/news/737973,grdeadfolo.article

larefamiliaris
Larefamiliaris  (Level: 135.2 - Posts: 877)
Fri, 8th Feb '08 5:41 AM

Tsk - crazy Americans.

salzypat
Salzypat  (Level: 156.5 - Posts: 5316)
Fri, 8th Feb '08 7:12 AM

Erin, I read the full article in the link and I have a couple questions on the article, in fact several questions, but I'll pose only one to you, which you may or may not be able to answer. Why was the friend not named? He's quoted indirectly in the article. Has he been charged in the thefts he admitted they committed or other crimes?



rnmorg
Rnmorg  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 690)
Fri, 8th Feb '08 7:17 AM

I think he is a minor, Pat.

achad
Achad  (Level: 204.2 - Posts: 661)
Fri, 8th Feb '08 8:19 AM

Many people this side of the pond think that ALL Yanks are gun-toting war-mongers, happy to support Bush et al in marauding around the world in pursuit of OIL. Whilst it is not something I found particularly when travelling around the US, N,S,E & W, I was chased round the streets of Oklahoma by a crazed druggie with a gun and in Santa Barbara I was offered a job as driver to enable someone to commit murder. I saw as many trucks with gun racks in Wisconsin as I did in Texas. It is unfair to tar any country, or any part of it with the same brush: I should know as over here Liverpool always gets a bad press.
In the case being discussed, from the information given, it sounds like premeditated murder and the guy should get life: tough! You want to play with lethal weapons, take the consequences!

erin0620
Erin0620  (Level: 77.2 - Posts: 737)
Fri, 8th Feb '08 9:43 AM

Yeah, the witness was a teenager. Good job on finding the case.

I work with soooooo many people who have turned their lives around. Former thieves, drug addicts, and prostitutes who have been rehabilitated, becoming contributing citizens. People with amazing minds, gifts, abilities, and sweet souls that never would have been discovered if we all had vigilante attitudes.

I am glad Felix voiced his opinion. It seems to have encouraged more folks WITHOUT his opinion to respond, and that's a comfort to me, and the reason I posted this in the first place.

texlewee
Texlewee  (Level: 34.1 - Posts: 601)
Fri, 8th Feb '08 11:12 AM

I am personally offended by your derogatory comments about us'uns from the South.

My wife/Cousin is, too, and when she gets off the School Bus coming home from 7th grade, she'll tell you a thing or two....

kaelin
Kaelin  (Level: 49.2 - Posts: 1685)
Fri, 8th Feb '08 11:47 AM

"a screwdriver between his legs and the car stereo dangling from the dashboard."

"You have to suffer the loss of your property rather than take human life."

Premeditated would mean that this man was lying in wait for the opportunity to shoot someone. This was not the case.

The theft victim turned himself in as opposed to running, which would cause me to assume his intent might not have been to actually kill, but wound the thief.

If he had indeed wounded instead of killed the teen, the teen may have sued the man he was stealing from, for injuring him and depriving him of his normal life.

Alternate scenario of how this could have turned would have been the man ran to his car to stop the thief from stealing his stereo, and then been stabbed with the screwdriver being used to steal the stereo.

Another alternate scenario could have been the man calls police, police come and thieves speed away in their car with police chasing, possibly causing more accidents, deaths and ending in an accident taking the lives of both thieves.

All possible reactions to the event are real and have happened in these exact same situations. The unfortunate death of the teen stealing the man's stereo is just how this has turned out, and the man who killed him will have to deal with the consequenes of his action, no matter what his intent in reaction to his property being stolen.

There is no Utopia, and every action has a consequence, and as I've diligently tried to teach my children, that even when they do wrong, I will love them, but there will be consequences for their actions.

And yes, many desperate people have turned their lives around and become contributing members of society. However, the victims, many of them having lost more than property and having lost THEIR lives in the process of being the victims, no longer are, leaving a ripple effect for their families.

Free Will, my friends, Free Will. All we can do is deal what whatever effect it might have on our lives in the best possible way.

headylamar
Headylamar  (Level: 150.7 - Posts: 740)
Fri, 8th Feb '08 1:17 PM

Thanks for the chuckle Tex! You were joking, weren't ya?

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Sat, 9th Feb '08 10:27 PM

There seems to be a misconception in many of the posts concerning the element of "premeditation". As a lawyer, I can assure you that premeditation does not require "laying in wait" or anything close to that. It merely requires a second of conscious reflection on the act.

I read the link somebody posted to the article about this matter. I'm not saying it was necessarily a first-degree murder -- that's something for a jury to decide, but a murder one charge is certainly justified by what I read, as would be a first-degree murder conviction.

As to punishment, in my view, sentences in this country for most crimes are way too harsh. We have much higher crime rates than most "first world" countries, despite sentences that are much harsher for most crimes than in most other industrialized nations.

I personally find it appalling that anyone believes that death is a fair punishment for stealing -- let alone stealing a car stero.

On the issue of the south, I wish the north had just let it leave the union, because the United States would be a much more humane and progressive nation today. The only basis on which I can justify the civil war is the elimination of slavery, but I don't believe it would have survived that much longer even in an independent southland. The percentage of southerners who hold backward political and social views is much higher than in the north. I'd still love to live in a country that DOES NOT include the old confederacy or Texas.

salzypat
Salzypat  (Level: 156.5 - Posts: 5316)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 1:50 AM

I think I'll just keep quiet and sit back and see what happens next.

rnmorg
Rnmorg  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 690)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 2:20 AM

(Popping corn and filling soda cups) Anyone want some jujubes? This is gonna be good.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 2:35 AM

I agree with what you have to say for the most part Tsk9653, I just don't have the balls to say it! Them's is fightin' words!

erin0620
Erin0620  (Level: 77.2 - Posts: 737)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 2:46 AM

As a transplant, I'm not offended, but there are parts of the South I have grown to love. I'm sure that's true of any region, after a while. But the negatives are quite appalling.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 4:56 AM

We sure have a lot of Carpetbaggers here for it to be such an awful place. Please come and get them. If we are so backward than they must be stupid for coming.

salzypat
Salzypat  (Level: 156.5 - Posts: 5316)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 9:53 AM

Tuzilla, Eesusbejesus, Heidi, Texlewee, Smaug, et al, where are you? Are you going to let Tsk9653 off so easy?

rnmorg
Rnmorg  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 690)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 9:59 AM

Whoa...what is this, 1870? Just like good people everywhere, northerners don't mind traveling to help those less fortunate than themselves. That's what it means to be a bleeding heart liberal. Of course, the many years that I spent down there were with my husband who was serving in the United States military; another reason why many of us are there. I'm sure you'll find something nasty to turn that into, though.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 10:16 AM

If you have to ask about the year, then you prove one of my points.

eesusbejesus
Eesusbejesus  (Level: 75.0 - Posts: 3645)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 10:39 AM

Whoa! I had to reread the post 3 times. I was down with the car stereo part. After reading the last paragraph, I think I need a rabies shot. I've never been to the South but I do have friends from there. Good friends. I guess I have been sheltered from most of the ignorant prejudices that I didn't realize still existed. Unfortunately, most insults are lost on the rabid so I'll just roll my eyes, shake my head, and wait for his Honorless to let me know why the Pacific Northwest should never have been added to the union.

rnmorg
Rnmorg  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 690)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 10:49 AM

This kind of "you can't win" story reminds me of a very interesting case that I worked on as an EMT. There were so many things going on! It was on the military base, and we responded to a stabbing. We arrived at the house and there was a man who indeed had a knife sticking out of his chest. When I went to stabilize the knife, the man tried to attack me and had to be restrained and handcuffed by the police. We received the story on the way to the hospital. The man had broken into an ex-girlfriend's house and the husband stabbed him. We got him to the ER in fine and spitting mad condition. While doing paperwork, we had to get some information on the guy, which of course he was NOT supplying. The Nurses thought he looked familiar and looked back to see if he had been there recently. Sure enough, he had been in a few weeks earlier with an asthma attack. After his MOTHER had chased him several blocks with a knife because he had stolen her disability check! This is where someone told me the interesting and probably very nearly accurate axiom that "90% of trauma victims got what they deserved."

Here is what I learned later from my mother who worked at the hospital.

A paramedic, who worked for the hospital but only to do emergency work OUTSIDE of the hospital assisted the staff taking the patient to the ICU after he was stabilized. The patient started crashing on the way up and the paramedic was the only one capable of intubating, so he intubated the man and they got him to ICU where he then went straight to surgery where they repaired his punctured aorta and saved his worthless life. Yay. Here's what happened after.

The paramedic was in danger of losing his job AND his license for working outside of his scope. In the end, I think he was just reprimanded.

The man sued the hospital. I don't think he won, though.

The man was from North Carolina. (That's not really significant to the story, but I added it as an interesting post script.)

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 11:03 AM

Lodi, I never said that anyone does not belongs in America. The thread was about opinions. I gave mine, and was promptly written off as being from the South. It's okay for some idiot to state that I'd have anything bad to say about our Military. One of my sons is a veteran of Iraq and another currently serves in the Air Force. I gave my opinion I'd did not make this personal. I did respond in kind just as I would if some coward threatened my family or property. If you don't want opinions don't look at a thread asking for them. Duh. Go ahead and judge me because traveling the South is not the same as "really" living here.

God Bless America and our Troops
What have you done for your Country lately,

Felix

eesusbejesus
Eesusbejesus  (Level: 75.0 - Posts: 3645)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 11:14 AM

I wasn't talking about you, Felix. I was talking about the guy who was slamming the South.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 11:26 AM

LOL! Much of the South needs slamming. I just happen to be in 3% of perfect Southerners.

rnmorg
Rnmorg  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 690)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 11:31 AM

I love how you like to spin doctor this entire thread.

========The thread was about opinions. I gave mine, and was promptly written off as being from the South.

Wrong. You were written off for stating you were from the south as if it was some sort of rationale for shooting first and asking questions later. HOWEVER, I admit that I missed the part of the original post which asked for opinions from all areas of the country. For that, I apologize.

I criticized your post for the disparaging tone that you put on it. "What color is the sky in your world?" Was that really necessary?

==== I gave my opinion I'd did not make this personal. I did respond in kind just as I would if some coward threatened my family or property.

Then, you DID TRY to make it personal by disparaging New England, like it's really going to bother me that there are dumb politicians. Hello, Trent Lott?

You asked what I thought was the proper punishment for breaking one of the commandments. I told you that only ONE of them warranted the death penalty, which is TRUE; do you think there are any others that should be punishable by death?


You said you wondered when we lost our rights. I asked you which rights you thought were lost by prosecuting someone who had killed someone else (essentially) in cold blood. You didn't answer.

You asked whether there was anything worse than a scum-sucking thief. The best answer; a pedophile. Why not just admit that you were misguided by asking these questions?

====It's okay for some idiot to state that I'd have anything bad to say about our Military.

See? I knew you would find some way to put a nasty spin on it! Why not just say, No, I would never say anything bad about the military?

You are an angry little man, with angry little opinions. I am proud that the majority of people that have responded in this thread feel differently than you.



chyenn
Chyenn  (Level: 202.6 - Posts: 1332)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 11:37 AM

Tsk9653 said:
"On the issue of the south, I wish the north had just let it leave the union, because the United States would be a much more humane and progressive nation today. The only basis on which I can justify the civil war is the elimination of slavery, but I don't believe it would have survived that much longer even in an independent southland. The percentage of southerners who hold backward political and social views is much higher than in the north. I'd still love to live in a country that DOES NOT include the old confederacy or Texas."

I'm sorry you feel this way. It's tragic that such an attitude still exists. Throughout history, many wars have been fought and many innocent, valuable lives have been lost because tyrannical dictators have come to power spouting the same venom.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 11:39 AM

And you are a sad but not so little person. I am lmao @ you, but have grown tired of your holier than thou attitude. I'm am proud to have met someone that knows everything.

rnmorg
Rnmorg  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 690)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 11:58 AM

LOL! It must be nice to know that when knowledge, logic and reason are not possible that a thinly-veiled attempted slam on size is still always available to the ignorant. I'll consider that an acknowledgment that my points have you totally flummoxed and that you have no credible argument against them.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 12:05 PM

Double standard? I can be called a little man, But you being a large woman is incorrect. Stupid is as stupid does.

erin0620
Erin0620  (Level: 77.2 - Posts: 737)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 12:13 PM

The angry little man-cat has some disparaging insinuations about you on his profile, Robin. Meee-ow.

rnmorg
Rnmorg  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 690)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 12:20 PM

I have no idea what size you are, much as YOU have no idea what size I am, despite your (what you may think is) clever profile view of a picture which is now 12 years old. I am sure that the idea of metaphor escapes you, but I meant "little" in the entirely figurative sense, which is what you continue to demonstrate. Unless I have totally misunderstood you and you are acknowledging my LARGE body of knowledge or my VAST capacity for open-mindedness, then I will assume that you are attempting to slam my body size, much as I would expect from a petulant dullard who has no useful information to add to a discussion but still, in some way, wishes to have their voice heard.

erin0620
Erin0620  (Level: 77.2 - Posts: 737)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 12:20 PM

Holy super fast delete, cat-man.
Disparaging remarks removed.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 12:23 PM

Cat-man? Thanks for the opening.


tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 2:11 PM

Re Chyenn's quote from, and comment on, my previous post. I don't understand how my post in any way constiutes "venom" that has been spouted by "tyrannical dictators" who are responsible for the deaths of innocents. Please give an example of even one tyrant who would have agreed with the sentiments in my post. My position was that the north should not have used force to keep the south in the United States. I know of no historical tyrants who would permit a voluntary separation of a disaffected population. How is letting a disaffected population separate from the rest of the union "tyranical"? How does permitting voluntary separation lead to bloodshed? In point of fact, there are almost no situations in which I support violence as a political tool, except to defend the country from an actual attack. This is tyranical? This sounds dictatorial?

A second point, I did not say -- and do not believe -- that backward political and social views are held by all southerners or no northerners. What I said was that such views were far more prevelant in the south than the north. On the national level, the south has historically and repeatedly been an impediment to policies that would result in more humane policies in the United States. I stand by that, and my position that, as a result, the USA is not the nation it could or should be.


salzypat
Salzypat  (Level: 156.5 - Posts: 5316)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 2:22 PM

"Name one thing worse that a scum sucking thief. Can you?"

Yeah, besides pedophiles, how about parents who scald their infants, the woman who put her infant in the microwave, the teacher who forces his/her student to have sex with them (some as young as 13 and 14)... the list continues on and on. I don't have any use for liars OR thieves, but they sure aren't at the bottom of the food chain as far as I am concerned.

Now I'm going to go back to my recliner, sip my hot tea and watch the rest of this unfold.



tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 2:26 PM

Re Eesubejesus Comment on my post. I expressed an opinion that letting the south voluntarily leave the north would have been preferable to the civil war because, ultimately, the current USA -- within its reduced borders -- would have been a more humane nation. I hadn't realized that any states in the Pacific northwest had ever been coerced into being part of the union. I at no time said that I should get to choose which states were in and which were out. The confederacy, itself, wanted to leave. I believe the northerners of the day should have let that happen. This is a far different position than you imply I am taking, that is: that I feel I should get to throw states out of the USA. You aren't throwing states out that want to leave.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 2:27 PM

I think it would help me Mr. Tim, if you have the time, to list as examples what some of these backward opinions are, so I can better join the debate. I'm assuming death penalty must be one, perhaps gun control another, and??

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 2:39 PM

Re Stoutyoungladd. 1. Death penalty. 2. Gun contol. 3. Support for military adventurism. 4. Racism. 5. Sexism. 6. Rights of working people to effectively organize. 7. Christian fundamentalism as trumping civil society. These are just some of the concepts i had in mind by use of the word "backward". Yes, there are people in all regions who have views that I believe hold the country back, but I am prepared to defend the position that there is a much higher concentraion of such folk in the southland.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 2:47 PM

The only one I really know anything about is the death penalty one, and if I remember right the south did seem to be at odds with alot of the rest of the country when I was writing my report. After Bush the military adventurism sure seems like a possibility!! Wish I had more time for politics....and I'm not mad at ya, you're opinions certainly are interesting to me, thanks for posting. I'll have to look into these. I can certainly see how it might be possible, the effect of history on a region and all that. Felix had his turn though I didn't completely agree, see no reason why you shouldn't get yours!

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 2:58 PM

P.S. The other thing I think I agree with is that the Civil War was something of a waste, at least that was my feeling after my American History class a few semesters ago. I actually felt the slavery issue was barely resolved, and the south had some pretty good arguments about the wisdom of replacing slavery in the south with what I think they called "wage" slaves in the north. Obviously, it didn't settle much, as African Americans still had a long, long road ahead of them. Not sure I want to start that argument here though.

erin0620
Erin0620  (Level: 77.2 - Posts: 737)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 3:00 PM

Two rednecks decided that they weren't going anywhere in life and thought they should go to college to get ahead. The first went in to see the counselor, who told him to take math, history, and logic.
"What's logic?" the first redneck asked.
The professor answered, "Let me give you an example. Do you own a weed eater?"
"I sure do."
"Then I can assume, using logic, that you have a yard," replied the professor.
"That's real good!" said the redneck.
The professor continued, "Logic will also tell me that since you have a yard, you also own a house."
Impressed, the redneck said, "Amazing!"
"And since you own a house, logic dictates that you have a wife."
"That's Betty Mae! This is incredible!" The redneck was catching on.
"Finally, since you have a wife, logically I can assume that you are heterosexual," said the professor.
"You're absolutely right! Why that's the most fascinatin' thing I ever heard! I cain't wait to take that logic class!"

The redneck, proud of the new world opening up to him, walked back into the hallway where his friend was still waiting.

"So what classes are ya takin' ?" asked the friend.
"Math, history, and logic!" replied the first redneck.
"What in tarnation is logic?" asked his friend.
"Let me give you an example. Do ya own a weed eater?" asked the first redneck.
"No," his friend replied.
"You're queer, ain't ya?"

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 3:09 PM

That was funny!!

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 8:56 PM

a

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Sun, 10th Feb '08 11:29 PM

At 11:25 p.m., EST, I launched a quiz entitled "The Reconstruction Era In the United States", which was ultimately inspired by this thread.

texlewee
Texlewee  (Level: 34.1 - Posts: 601)
Mon, 11th Feb '08 11:41 AM

I noticed a mention of a teacher forcing students to have sex....


WHen I was a teen in high school, there were SEVERAL fresh out of college teacher-hotties that I would have been more than happy to "be taught" by.

Funny though..... Male teacher has sex with teen girl = SICKO !!!! (Not you, Slicko)

Smokin Hot Female teacher with male student? Stuff of legend and Chart Busting music singles (See Van Halen - Hot for Teacher)

acofish
Acofish  (Level: 59.9 - Posts: 98)
Mon, 11th Feb '08 3:27 PM

Tsk,
I happen to believe that many of your opinions appear to be backwards to me and many other like-minded southerners. "Forward" and "backward" are very subjective!

As to the original question, I have to agree with Felix. At my country home in beautiful South Carolina, God help the cretin tryin' to mess with my or any of my neighbors' stuff. Funny, but people from the south know from birth the risks they take when they mess with others' stuff. I could, and did, leave my keys in my truck and my front door unlocked: It's the way it should be! I think there are many great lessons to be learned from the way things are done in the south, and I would be more than happy to debate specific issues with any and all comers...

Mike

acofish
Acofish  (Level: 59.9 - Posts: 98)
Mon, 11th Feb '08 3:32 PM

Clarification:

I agree with Felix on the scum-suckin' thief getting what he deserved. I am not in agreement with any personal attacks on anyone!!

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Mon, 11th Feb '08 3:57 PM

Tex's response was the most erudite and enlightening post on the whole thread. If only they would legalize such liasons between female teachers and male high school students. Sigh, waiting for my progressive society to kick in now.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Mon, 11th Feb '08 4:11 PM

Acofish: leaving terminology aside, backwards vs. progressive views, I was wondering as someone who isn't sure, does it seem to you that on the issues listed by tsk9653 that the south at the very least seems "out of step" with the rest of the country? You might be out of step in a good way, but does the South really seem at odds on the issues listed?

erin0620
Erin0620  (Level: 77.2 - Posts: 737)
Mon, 11th Feb '08 4:58 PM

I was taught from birth to love the sinner, hate the sin.

acofish
Acofish  (Level: 59.9 - Posts: 98)
Mon, 11th Feb '08 5:11 PM

Good question and one I appreciate! I don't think that the south is out of touch with the rest of the country any more. I think that things are closer now than ever before in history, in terms of societal thinking. One important thing to remember is that the demographics of the south have radically changed over the last couple of decades. I really think most of the difference in opinions can be broken down better than north/south. I think that people in the rural areas of the country hold similar values, and likewise, urbanites and suburbanites hold similar values and views. With that being said, the rural populations in the south have always been predominant over the big cities, but that is changing in a very dramatic way, and I don't think the north/south monikers are quite as accurate as in the past. You will find that a person who came up in Podunk, SC has a values system very similar to a person who grew up in Cornfield, IA. By the way, I always saw it as the rest of the country being out of touch with the south, not the other way around...you can't help but love us friendly southern folk...

acofish
Acofish  (Level: 59.9 - Posts: 98)
Mon, 11th Feb '08 5:16 PM

Erin,
Loving the sinner doesn't mean no consequences for the sinner!



felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Mon, 11th Feb '08 8:22 PM

Amen!

erin0620
Erin0620  (Level: 77.2 - Posts: 737)
Mon, 11th Feb '08 8:31 PM

Tough consequences! Mike, perhaps you should move out of the South and to somewhere where theft is punishable by death. Perhaps you can travel through time to the old west so you can hang a horse thief. Or perhaps your blood lust would be sated with dismemberment, move to a Saudi tribe, you can lop someone's hands off. But Biblical and U.S. laws dictate otherwise.

In trying to keep this debate respectful to all those involved, can we please refrain from using words like "scum sucking". It is a personal attack on someone you don't know. You only know how he died, you know less than one hour out of 18 years.

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Mon, 11th Feb '08 9:36 PM

I guess this response is directed at Felix, or perhaps anyone who shares his view of Justice. If the "thief" in this case were someone wealthy, such as Kenneth Lay from Enron or Martha Stewart, stealing money through insider trading, and someone who lost money through their actions came up to them and shot them, would you consider that "justice"? Much like Kenneth Lay and his "good works" in society, this particular thief that was killed volunteered to help the homeless every wednesday. And perhaps unlike Kenneth Lay, this "thief" wanted out of that kind of life. I guess I'm asking if maybe there is a double standard here. Lay stole more in monetary terms than a single thief stealing car stereos could ever steal on his own. So should Kenneth Lay or Martha Stewart be shot for their crimes??

acofish
Acofish  (Level: 59.9 - Posts: 98)
Mon, 11th Feb '08 9:47 PM

erin,
I am suprised at the hostility! I don't advocate death for stealing, but when a thief is taking something of someone else's, he is running the risk of great physical harm!!! When are people going to wake up and realize there are consequences to their actions?????

ladd,
I would call it poetic justice if someone were to have shot Ken Lay.

Again, WHEN YOU MESS WITH PEOPLE AND THEIR STUFF YOU ARE PLAYING WITH FIRE! DON'T BE SUPRISED TO GET BURNED!!!! C'mon in my house Mr. Burglar! Take everything you want! I won't shoot you, it just wouldn't be right! Gimmee a break......

acofish
Acofish  (Level: 59.9 - Posts: 98)
Mon, 11th Feb '08 9:53 PM

erin,
you've known me less than an hour, and I have a lust for blood?!?!?!?! Keep it respectful for the poor criminal, but not for a dissenting opinion?

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Mon, 11th Feb '08 10:16 PM

Maybe she didn't here you. Ever tried listening with you head in the sand?

smokydevil
Smokydevil  (Level: 163.0 - Posts: 5381)
Mon, 11th Feb '08 10:31 PM

Acofish, Erin works with the homeless, and so did the victim. Put it together, they might not have known each other, but they had mutual acquaintances. She knows people who cared about him. I think the reasons she is upset are obvious.

erin0620
Erin0620  (Level: 77.2 - Posts: 737)
Mon, 11th Feb '08 10:45 PM

I apologize for being disrespectful, I agree that I shouldn't have been so aggressive. I have emotional ties to this, but stupidly posted it in a forum. I expected to hear dissenting attitudes, but "scum sucking" hit an emotional button. But I am sorry.

Felix, bless your heart, that isn't very Southern gentlemanly.

rnmorg
Rnmorg  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 690)
Tue, 12th Feb '08 12:42 AM

You need to remember...this guy did NOT break into someone's home. He broke into a vehicle parked in a parking lot of an apartment building. I'd say this is the rough equivalent of coming out and finding someone stealing something from your car in a walmart parking lot and shooting them. It's COLD BLOOD. I'm guessing that the pre-meditation that Tsk spoke of was the act of seeing that someone was breaking in to his vehicle, looking for and grabbing a weapon, running to the car and then shooting without warning MORE THAN ONCE. That is a lot more planning than it sounds like! You don't think that somewhere along that line that the rational thought that he was doing something far more dramatic than the situaton warranted could have slipped in?

If someone stole money or valuables from a drug dealer or crime boss and was shot later, then you would expect the drug dealer or boss to be tried, wouldn't you? Or would you think, well, you steal from a crime lord, then you just get what you get?

People are always so quick to say that they love their country, then totally deny what the justice system is all about. Justice isn't always attractive, it doesn't always sound fair to the bystander, but it is MEANT to apply to all people, and God forbid, if any of you or your loved ones ever find yourselves in desperate straits and on the wrong side of that bench, then I hope you will come to appreciate a fair trial.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Tue, 12th Feb '08 6:39 AM

"So just one more car stereo and I'm gonna retire". Al Capone had to start somewhere. And I believe OJ has kept his nose clean. I'm no gentlemen? How would you know. WOW! You work with homeless. Do you get paid? I work a real job and have been a full time (unpaid) caregiver for the last year as well. What a jerk I must be. Just as you make broad geographical assumptions you seem to do the same about individuals as well. Surely everyone is going to Hell except you. Lmao!

erin0620
Erin0620  (Level: 77.2 - Posts: 737)
Tue, 12th Feb '08 7:19 AM

"So just one more car stereo and I'm gonna retire". Al Capone had to start somewhere. And I believe OJ has kept his nose clean. I'm no gentlemen? How would you know. WOW! You work with homeless. Do you get paid? I work a real job and have been a full time (unpaid) caregiver for the last year as well. What a jerk I must be. Just as you make broad geographical assumptions you seem to do the same about individuals as well. Surely everyone is going to Hell except you. Lmao!

Felix, you are a grown man, you have grown children, I thought only 13 year old girls still used "Lmao". It's hard to take you seriously, especially with such ridiculous arguments.

One, I never said the boy was justified in what he was doing.

Two, I didn't bring up working with the homeless, someone did to explain why I might be upset. (I don't get paid, but I don't think it is buying me a ticket to heaven, I do it for many reasons, admittedly, most selfish)

Three, I never made geographical assumptions, I asked for opinions.

Four, I didn't make any assumptions about you. My feelings about you are based on your many many many caustic posts.

Five, I never called you a jerk, BUT, you are NO gentleman. Will ANYBODY to come to your defense on that point? People may agree with your opinions, but I don't think anyone would call you a gentleman.



acofish
Acofish  (Level: 59.9 - Posts: 98)
Tue, 12th Feb '08 7:35 AM

erin,
I apologize for upsetting you by repeating the phrase that was out there, I meant no harm, and I am truly sorry you are going through this.

erin0620
Erin0620  (Level: 77.2 - Posts: 737)
Tue, 12th Feb '08 7:42 AM

No need Mike, but thank you. Very....gentlemanly

I wasn't minding my temper and I misdirected my anger, thanks for being kind.

acofish
Acofish  (Level: 59.9 - Posts: 98)
Tue, 12th Feb '08 7:52 AM

rnmorg,
"People are always so quick to say that they love their country, then totally deny what the justice system is all about. Justice isn't always attractive, it doesn't always sound fair to the bystander, but it is MEANT to apply to all people, and God forbid, if any of you or your loved ones ever find yourselves in desperate straits and on the wrong side of that bench, then I hope you will come to appreciate a fair trial"

rnmorg,
An interesting comment. In cases like the one of the 70 year old man cited earlier that got off scot free, is that justice? Was justice done in that case? A trial was either conducted or charges were never brought because of THE LAW. I do appreciate the concept of a fair trial, first hand (nothing major, just stupid kid stuff). I could rationalize my behavior that led to that trial, but even as a kid, I knew what I did was wrong, against the law, and would HAVE CONSEQUENCES if I got caught.

erin0620
Erin0620  (Level: 77.2 - Posts: 737)
Tue, 12th Feb '08 8:12 AM

I don't think anyone would argue that theft should go unpunished, I think it was the severity of the consequences, and that someone took it upon themselves to decide and dole out the consequences.

There are consequences for what the "shooter" did as well, and my initial point was that few people in this area felt the shooter should face any consequences at all. We don't know if the "shooter" felt threatened, but signs (including the shooter's confession) point to no.

Again, these were both very young people, I don't think either should be demonized for making tragic mistakes or behaving the way they were raised.

rnmorg
Rnmorg  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 690)
Tue, 12th Feb '08 8:39 AM

Mike: Yes, but what if that stupid kid stuff got you shot? This guy was 18 yrs old, so this WAS stupid kid stuff. As an adult, looking back, do you think you or any of your contemporaries deserved to be shot for being stupid kids? Don't you think this guy's parents would have appreciated the decision handed down by a judge or a jury for his stupid acts over the decision for flowers or donations to a memorial fund?



felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Tue, 12th Feb '08 8:53 AM

Lighten up.

acofish
Acofish  (Level: 59.9 - Posts: 98)
Tue, 12th Feb '08 9:00 AM

I understand things could have turned out much better in this situation, but they didn't, and the blame for that rests squarely on the shoulders of the thief. HIS actions led to the entire situation. When you play on the level of messing with people and their stuff, bad things, to whatever degree, can happen. Unfortunately, one does not get to choose the degree of bad things that happen. If what I did would have resulted in my being shot or killed, I could not blame the VICTIM of my stupidity for his reaction to my actions.

erin0620
Erin0620  (Level: 77.2 - Posts: 737)
Tue, 12th Feb '08 9:20 AM

There are punishments for actions, AND for reactions. If I react to someone calling me a name by hitting them, I am wrong, and could get punished for assault.

acofish
Acofish  (Level: 59.9 - Posts: 98)
Tue, 12th Feb '08 9:28 AM

c'mon erin...gimmee a break!
Maybe the dude should've called him a name instead of robbing him...

larefamiliaris
Larefamiliaris  (Level: 135.2 - Posts: 877)
Tue, 12th Feb '08 10:30 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/7212975.stm


I'm not really suggesting this is a like-for-like story, merely that the theft of something so trivial (in the above case, time)can never warrant such lethal responses.

"As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power." - Quran 5:38

Most Western (and dare I say democratic) societies would deem the above passage from the Quran as being somewhat extreme, yet I see the same sentiments being expressed by people here. I'd invite them to think very carefully about the wider implications of a 'Don't Tread on Me' attitude in a modern world. And that would certainly include tragic and disproportionate reactions to exceedingly 'petty' theft.

papajensai
Papajensai  (Level: 193.2 - Posts: 1025)
Tue, 12th Feb '08 10:53 AM

Is this thread still going on? A sincere request for individual opinions got hijacked by a couple of flame-baiters way back there, and you nice people keep responding to the bait. Let the flame bait die a natural death and ignore the Baiters. Although they are Masters at their craft.

acofish
Acofish  (Level: 59.9 - Posts: 98)
Tue, 12th Feb '08 11:22 AM

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=local&id=5366766

shoot first, ask questions later, or why it is dagerous to confront a car thief with a screwdriver...

texlewee
Texlewee  (Level: 34.1 - Posts: 601)
Tue, 12th Feb '08 11:24 AM

I was pretty sure we had settled the argument wayyyy back... And, as one who has NO problem being the occasional baiter, here is my opinion.....

Where's the line? If we can shoot someone who breaks into our car when we aren't in it, can we justify other killings? (notice the premise that I wasn't in the car when it was being robbed.)

After all, a man who drives drunk is endangering me and my family in a much greater way than one who steals my stereo. If he injures someone, he can be prosecuted for assault with a deadly weapon.

Therefore, I expect license to shoot to kill if I see a drunk about to enter his car near me and my family.

I fully support laws that have been passed here in Texas to allow me to defend myself with deadly force should someone break into my home or car or office while I am there.

But if I catch someone stealing my hubcaps (which might be worth even more than my stereo) and I execute him, I should be punished.


That is apparently what happened, based on the info I read. He caught the man stealing his stereo , and executed him.

acofish
Acofish  (Level: 59.9 - Posts: 98)
Tue, 12th Feb '08 11:44 AM


erin0620
Erin0620  (Level: 77.2 - Posts: 737)
Tue, 12th Feb '08 1:49 PM

Rjenson, are you calling them master baiters?

oldcougar
Oldcougar  (Level: 220.4 - Posts: 1935)
Tue, 12th Feb '08 3:14 PM

I'd call some of these people that & a few other things besides. I sincerely hope they don't call themselves Christians As in "do unto to others"

papajensai
Papajensai  (Level: 193.2 - Posts: 1025)
Tue, 12th Feb '08 3:34 PM

erin--I think the brits would say "wankers".

papajensai
Papajensai  (Level: 193.2 - Posts: 1025)
Tue, 12th Feb '08 3:36 PM

not that there's anything wrong with that.

felix
Felix  (Level: 109.3 - Posts: 2500)
Tue, 12th Feb '08 4:48 PM

General Grant, could you point me towards Appomattox?

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Tue, 12th Feb '08 5:09 PM

I will stir the pot again. I totally disgree that with Acofish that the regional social and political differences between the north and south are a thing of the past. I think all you have to do to disprove this is to see who the 11 states of the old Confederacy elect to represent them in Washinton, compared to the northern states. I do agree that urban dwellers tend to have what I deem more progressive views than rural dwellers. Again, however, I am not saying all urban dwellers or all rural dwellers harbor particular views -- its a matter of percentages.

I find myself in far more sympathetic company when among citizens of western European countires or Canada versus my fellow countrymen from the south. For various reasons, my step-daughter ended up in Alabama. Before she left Michigan, she was apolitical; however, she was radicalized by the right wing attitudes of southerners. She found white racism to be far more prevelant in Alabama than Michigan; she found far more people in Alabama wanting to start wars and intervene in other countries than in Michigan. This is just to give two examples. This was a young woman who couldn't even be bothered to vote up north. She lives in Tuscaloosa, and her father in Birmingham -- urban areas both -- where she has felt oppressed by right wing views.

Yes, it is a relative thing, and reminds me of this story. A few years back, we visited New Orleans, and ended up taking a swamp tour. The guide discovered that one of the women on the tour was from southern Indiana. He started referring to her as a "yankee". My spontaneous reaction: "Hell, where I'm from, we consider southern Indiana to be the south." I was not being completely facetious.


rnmorg
Rnmorg  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 690)
Tue, 12th Feb '08 6:22 PM

Mike: RE: The pensioner shooting the repeat trespasser/thief IN THE LEG.

I hope that you aren't really comparing these cases, are you? THIS case that you cited is the prime example of why we SHOULD have a second amendment for private citizenry. The original case, a young man shooting another over the theft of a personal item while NOT on personal property, is a markedly different circumstance. However, I am unsure of the laws in the UK regarding weapons; is it legal to own and/or use guns there? It's an interesting case, though. I definitely feel a great deal of sympathy for the old gentleman; it must be very frightening to be living alone and isolated and have a gang of thugs target you for this sort of mischief.

texlewee
Texlewee  (Level: 34.1 - Posts: 601)
Tue, 12th Feb '08 7:59 PM

I hate it when people say that people who are willing to give up our rights and allow the government to decide who should get my money have "progressive" ideas.

Most people, I have found, that consider themselves "progressive" pick that moniker simply because they don't like being labeled Socialist.

Smaller government. More freedom. Less taxation. Fewer social programs.....

That's what I call progressive,.

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Tue, 12th Feb '08 8:12 PM

Texlewee, I will give you an example of what I would deem to be progressive. Today, 69 Senators voted in favor of granting telecommunications companies amnesty for the illegal spying they undertook at the behest of that fine son of the south, Geo Bush, Jr. Only 31 Senators could be mustered to fight the legalization of every citizen's right to privacy. These Senators took the progressive position. The 11 states of the old Confederacy elect 22 Senators. Every one of those 22 Senators voted to let the telcos take a pass for their flatly illegal conduct. So tell me about how this north/south divide doesn't exist.

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Tue, 12th Feb '08 8:15 PM

Re previous post. Only 31 Senators could be found to vote against legalizing the telcos crimes agaisnt the citizenry's privacy rights. The point is, none of the 22 old Confederacy's Senators stood with the American people.

acofish
Acofish  (Level: 59.9 - Posts: 98)
Wed, 13th Feb '08 9:47 AM

I reckon the reason you feel in more sympathetic company around Europeans is that you are some kind of socialist. Thank God that there are enough "backwards" people in this country who don't want it to become completely socialist. This discussion is turning into exactly what the War of Northern Aggression was REALLY about...states' rights.

I've enjoyed discussing these issues with y'all, but I am reminded of why I tend to stay off BBS. God bless you all, and have a great day!!

Mike

rnmorg
Rnmorg  (Level: 128.2 - Posts: 690)
Wed, 13th Feb '08 10:07 AM

LOL...so I feel sympathy for an elderly man who is being menaced by a gang of thugs and I'm a socialist? I would have felt the same way about the same man in any country. The house we bought was owned by a 65 yr old who obviously had felt threatened in some way by kids in the neighborhood. Every conceivable "easy access" entry had double and triple locks, as well as bars and/or shatterproof glass. He left us his gun cabinet, so we know that he had firearms. We appreciate the extra security, but it is sad that he felt as though he needed this security in such a safe neighborhood and with neighbors very close by (as someone else in this thread stated, 2 feet away LOL)

Care and concern about other people is NOT socialism, Mike.

ricksdusa
Ricksdusa  (Level: 22.6 - Posts: 69)
Wed, 13th Feb '08 10:43 AM

My opinion? Over in the UK, you CAN own a gun....but restrictions are much stricter. Policemen don't routinely carry guns even, and as a result, gun crimes are less prevelent than over here. I've heard the argument "guns don't kill people, people kill people" but I think that is a complete non-sequitur. I personally have never seen a gun of any kind, chase someone down the street and fire itself...BUT...and here is the big giveaway for me....I've never seen anybody die from a loaded finger. Of course there are a million and one ways to kill someone, but why make it easy? A moment's flash of anger, one bad choice....BANG...How many lives ruined? Just my opinion. I don't feel safer knowing that the person sitting in the car next to mine may have had a really bad day and I inadvertantly pissed him off by not fully appreciating road etiquete. He might be about to go postal. Sure, a tire iron can be a lethal weapon in that circumstance, but I would have a chance to get away...not so much with a nice easily concealed .38 saturday night special.

larefamiliaris
Larefamiliaris  (Level: 135.2 - Posts: 877)
Wed, 13th Feb '08 10:50 AM

"I reckon the reason you feel in more sympathetic company around Europeans is that you are some kind of socialist."


Not really up on world politics then?

erin0620
Erin0620  (Level: 77.2 - Posts: 737)
Wed, 13th Feb '08 11:07 AM

Not related to topic...that much.

In college, my poli-sci teacher said this, and only this, about Socialism.

"Socialism. Socialism is.......socialism is..........it's just bad. Read about it in your books."

Surprise, it was a Southern university.

texlewee
Texlewee  (Level: 34.1 - Posts: 601)
Wed, 13th Feb '08 11:11 AM

"Policemen don't routinely carry guns even, and as a result, gun crimes are less prevelent than over here."

I find that statement to ignorant. How can you POSSIBLY equate that policemen not carrying guns lowers crime?

In the USA, states that have "conceal and carry" laws have shown reduced violent crime rates. NOWHERE has stricter gun control laws effected crime in a positive way. Our Washington DC is a perfect example, with some of the highest violent crime rates in the country, and arguably the most strict gun control laws.

Strict gun laws are in direct opposition with the second amendment. We have the RIGHT to bear arms; not just to hunt, but to protect ourselves from criminals, and yes, perhaps an oppressive government.

As far as the Telco act: I read it, and am fully on board with the legislation that allows what you call "illegal" spying. Its not illegal, no matter WHAT the bleeding hearts might say. We have the RIGHT as a country to monitor communications of foreign nationals. And the Telco act allows us to continue to monitor communications from the USA to foreign nationals. Not USA to USA communications. Get yer facts straight.

I bet you want the illegal foreign enemy combatants at Guantanamo to have equal rights under the USA Constitution as well?

pepperdoc
Pepperdoc  (Level: 152.5 - Posts: 4286)
Wed, 13th Feb '08 11:49 AM


ricksdusa
Ricksdusa  (Level: 22.6 - Posts: 69)
Wed, 13th Feb '08 11:50 AM

I didn't say that policeman not carrying guns reduced crime per se. I don't think that any one factor reduces/increases crime...Gun crime, however, is another story. In my 'ignorant' opinion, the less access people have to guns, the less likely they are to use them. Maybe I'm just naive. I am aware of the value some Americans place on their second amendment rights. If it is placed in its historical context though, I'm not sure whether the argument still holds water. As I said, it is only my opinion, and I'm sure many people will find it ignorant, or misinformed, or just plain stupid. But you can't agree with everyone, all the time can you? Otherwise, where is freedom of thought?

kaufman
Kaufman  (Level: 257.0 - Posts: 3936)
Wed, 13th Feb '08 12:35 PM

You bet, Tex. I want those people, scum that they might be, to be treated fairly, justly and humanely. No exceptions, that's what a civilized people does.

As for the telcos, the point is that what they allegedly did was NOT legal, it was beyond what they were authorized to do. And if they committed those crimes against Americans, I want them to face the music, just as much as their fellow terrorists should.

texlewee
Texlewee  (Level: 34.1 - Posts: 601)
Wed, 13th Feb '08 2:11 PM

Actually rick, that is exactly what you said. Feel free to restate if needed.

And Kaufman, never did I state that the prisoners didn't deserve to be treated humanely. I will, however, state now that I feel strongly that the foreign illegal combatants have NO rights to due process or protections under the USA constitution.

There are specific conventions in place to address them. Our constitution is not one of them.

ricksdusa
Ricksdusa  (Level: 22.6 - Posts: 69)
Wed, 13th Feb '08 2:43 PM

actually tex.... that is NOT what I said. If you'd care to read... I said that the police not carrying guns resulted in GUN CRIME being less prevelent.... not CRIME. It might seem like a little distinction, a petty semantic if you will. However, if you feel strongly enough to call me ignorant for my point of view, then at least have the courtesy of criticising my actual ideas, and not putting words in my mouth. Have a nice day

texlewee
Texlewee  (Level: 34.1 - Posts: 601)
Wed, 13th Feb '08 3:01 PM

Rick, you are right. You specifically stated "gun crime", not crime. I still insist that your statement "Policemen don't routinely carry guns even, and as a result, gun crimes are less prevelent than over here." is ignorant.

I am not saying YOU are ignorant, just that specific statement. I do not equate ignorance with stupidity.

However, It MAY be true that the policemen rarely carry guns BECAUSE gun crime is lower? I don't know that for sure, because I am ignorant ( notice that word again) of the historical crime statistics in your area.

And, have a nice day.

phitzy1
Phitzy1  (Level: 66.4 - Posts: 873)
Wed, 13th Feb '08 6:07 PM

Sock, Shoe, Sock, Shoe...
except when I wear sandals

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Wed, 13th Feb '08 6:21 PM

This has been rather entertaining for me. Thank you all.

1. First, we have Tex, who claims to be in favor of more freedom, but wants the government to "protect" him by invading the privacy rights of every American citizen -- making them less free. Incidentally, Qwest, the one telco that refused to play ball, lost federal contracts in a retalitory move by the Bush administration.

2. Tex, it is simply UNTRUE that the illegal wiretapping extended only to foreign nationals. Do a goggle search, and you should learn plenty. In any event, I do support a warrant requirement before one starts listening in on conversations of foreign nationals. The contrary view is a typical example (unfortunately) of not just southern arrogance, but American arrogance in general -- that is, only the privacy rights of U.S. citizens need to be respected. Only Americans count.

3. I don't see any point in responding to a generalized attack on my beliefs as "Socialist" -- particularly when I'm not even sure what the accuser means by the term. Perhaps you could give me an example of a "Socialist" view that you presume I hold, and they I could respond. It may surprise to Acofish and Tex to learn that I am a member of the Libertarian Party, although I admit to coming to that party from the left, as opposed to the much larger Libertarian contingent from the right. I am in complete sympathy with the LP's strong support for individual civil liberties, including its views on the evils wrought by the so-called war on drugs, and anti-interventionist foreign policy.

4. Anyway, back to the original posting: this guy has a gun, walks up to a guy sitting in his car stealing a car stereo, but instead of calling the cops and telling the thief not to move while he points the gun at him, he just blows the guy away. If thinking that this killing could properly be called murder makes me a "Socialist", I'm copping to it.


tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Wed, 13th Feb '08 6:31 PM

Incidentally Acofish, you apparently didn't notice that near the beginning of this thread, I stated that I wished the north had simply let the south leave the union. So this is actually a point of agreement between us.

texlewee
Texlewee  (Level: 34.1 - Posts: 601)
Wed, 13th Feb '08 7:27 PM

TSK, I reread my threads, and I dont see where I called you a socialist. I stated that I disliked it when people used the word "progressive" when the proper word based on their ideology would be "socialist".

I have and did read MANY reports on the wiretapping, and it still appears to me we have the right to monitor foreign nationals when they communicate within th USA.

Furthermore, I know there is rhetoric regarding the monitoring of US citizens conversations to other US citizens within the USA, but other than wild speculation, I dont see that issue has occurred.

However, If I am proved ignorant by a relevant news thread, I will be happy to recant.

twoxfourman
Twoxfourman  (Level: 82.4 - Posts: 153)
Thu, 14th Feb '08 12:53 PM

If guns cause crime, mine are defective. - Ted Nugent

salzypat
Salzypat  (Level: 156.5 - Posts: 5316)
Fri, 15th Feb '08 3:36 PM

FYI: The topic below is scheduled for ABC's Nightline tonight, Friday, Feb. 15, 2008. While it is not related to the situation that started this thread, it may shed some interesting light on the various paths this thread has taken.


"Castle Law"

It's an age-old notion, "A man's home is his castle." And now, a controversial new Texas law, dubbed the "Castle Law," is putting it on the books?giving homeowners unprecedented rights to use deadly force against intruders. ABC's Chris Bury has the story of 61-year-old Joe Horn, who is facing backlash after using the law to justify shooting two burglars fleeing his neighbors' home.


wordster
Wordster  (Level: 159.5 - Posts: 911)
Wed, 2nd Apr '08 4:01 PM

In the UK this would be murder. You are only allowed to use reasonable force but not when you are outside your property. And all of that does not take account of the fact that it is illegal to be in possession of a gun.In the UK if the police arrested me and I had a gun I would face a year in jail! Not even the police except for armed response units and security police at airports for example carry guns here.
All this said it seems pretty harsh to charge this person with murder under either of our laws. But on the other hand he should be punished. The other person was only stealing a radio. That can't possibly justify killing him. Things need to be kept under control. This is very difficult.

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Thu, 3rd Apr '08 6:27 PM

It strikes me as highly unlikely that a jury in the area where this event occurred would convict of first degree murder, even if the evidence supported that verdict. Indeed, if in a place where a majority of the people think its okay to blow somebody away for stealing a car stereo -- and it appears that this may be such a place -- this guy might not be convicted of anything: it's called jury nullification. In most of my state, Michigan, I would expect the case to be pled out to, or the be guy convicted of in a compromise verdict, manslaughter. In Michigan, that would carry a maximum sentence of 10 to 15 years. (Michigan uses indeterminate sentencing, that is, the sentence for felonies must include a minimum setence that is no more than 2/3 of the statutory maximum.)

tsk9653
Tsk9653  (Level: 113.2 - Posts: 1466)
Thu, 3rd Apr '08 6:30 PM

Also, in Michigan, he would get another two year consecutive sentence for using a firemarm in the commission of a felony, namely, the unjustified killing of the stereo thief.


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