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garrybl
Garrybl  (Level: 279.5 - Posts: 6641)
Sat, 19th Apr '08 9:59 PM

WHERE THAI 10 PM 19 APRIL

Bhimbetka; clearly Tallactor should be getting the credit not me.
Both of us had the same reference and I just hit on the precise words.
Still I'm used to finishing behind him on WPs.....
But I deserve that.

Barry

Sploofus Editor
Sploofizz (Editor)  
Sat, 19th Apr '08 10:16 PM

Well, actually, you chose the correct spelling (according to wikipedia, which is our Bible for these).

Tall actor was spelling it Bhimbhetka. That 2nd 'h' is incorrect, as far as wiki is concerned.

While you were typing in your correct spelling, editors were discussing the concept of someone obviously getting the right answer, but NOT the right spelling...now the right WORDING is a different thing, but spelling...??

We had already decided spelling counts!

But OTHER sites have Tallactor's spelling variation...How can editors possibly anticipate every spelling variation?? We have to use SOMETHING as a guide, and for us its wiki.

What is the general consensus of the beta testers? Wiki spelling only? Or manually give someone the points if they have an alternate spelling earlier?

Sploofus Editor
Sploofizz (Editor)  
Sat, 19th Apr '08 10:21 PM

Just to clarify:

I googled Tallactor's variant spelling and only got 520 hits vs 40,000 for the wiki spelling. This indicates that it's a common mistake, but a spelling error nonetheless.

tallactor
Tallactor  (Level: 153.1 - Posts: 423)
Sat, 19th Apr '08 10:27 PM

Every reference I saw spelled it the way I did, so I assumed I was using the correct spelling. To refuse to accept my answer, which used what is clearly a pretty common variation, seems to me simply arbitrary. And to say I misspelled it is simply not true--I used the spelling I found.

garrybl
Garrybl  (Level: 279.5 - Posts: 6641)
Sat, 19th Apr '08 10:45 PM

I think its not appropriate for me as an involved party to make the call; if I were in Tallactor's seat I'd be pretty hosed off though.
I'd like to think spoofus is disinterested enough to make the callon an ad hoc basis.

Regardless of this; the WTHAI is now my main fun on the sploofus site behind WP. Please keep it going!

Barry

larrybus
Larrybus  (Level: 307.4 - Posts: 383)
Sat, 19th Apr '08 10:48 PM

A problem with words from languages not using Latin characters is that there can be several different legitimate transliterations into English or other European languages. Sometimes, transliteration conventions change over time, e.g. Romanoff to Romanov or Peiping to Peking to Beijing. It might take some work to determine if a spelling is an accepted variation. It may have been common, say. 50 years ago or it might be the transliteration accepted in French or German. Or it might be a transliteration based on the pronunciation in a different dialect of the original language.

I'd vote for accepting alternative spellings if they appear in a good number of fairly authoritative sources.







larrybus
Larrybus  (Level: 307.4 - Posts: 383)
Sat, 19th Apr '08 10:49 PM

Give Tallactor the points. It doesn't cost Sploofus anything to print more.



Sploofus Editor
Sploofizz (Editor)  
Sat, 19th Apr '08 10:50 PM

This is Beta testing...there is a bigger issue at stake here then points. We need to figure out how to handle this in the future.

So Tallactor, if there was an established rule that said "Wikipedia spelling only", would you have looked up your guess on wiki to confirm spelling? Or stuck with the sources you found?

Mind you, I'm encouraging discussion here to try to figure out how to handle this problem.




Sploofus Editor
Sploofizz (Editor)  
Sat, 19th Apr '08 10:56 PM

Larrybus

The problem with your suggestion is that the editor has to input every acceptable "correct" answer when entering the WTHAI into the database. How can we ever be sure that we have entered every possibility?

We don't want to have to constantly monitor the guesses to see if someone got it but spelled it differently. We need to have a policy with will allow the game to run without constant moderation.

Would you have a problem accepting that Wikipedia's spelling is the one we use? Mostly because we add the link to the wiki article after the fact, so that is our main source.

pepperdoc
Pepperdoc  (Level: 152.5 - Posts: 4286)
Sat, 19th Apr '08 10:57 PM

I can appreciate having one common source for everyone to check. For WTHAI players, it may mean two verifications before submitting a guess. Sometime the photo isn't on Wiki but elsewhere, so you'd have to find the photo (or KNOW who or where the w/w is) and then go to Wiki to double check the spelling.

I'm trying to envision how all this will play out when you have potentially hundreds to a thousand players...Will people feel more frantic to enter an answer thinking someone will jump ahead of them? Will they get po'd if they didn't check Wiki first and it not count? Don't know.

But, I do know this. I agree with Barry, this is becoming one of my favorite things to do; however, I can spend LOTS of time searching and then get diverted by a topic that's not the puzzle...

tallactor
Tallactor  (Level: 153.1 - Posts: 423)
Sat, 19th Apr '08 11:04 PM

If there was a rule that only the Wikipedia spelling would be accepted, then of course I would have checked there before submitting. But if such a rule existed it would need to be stated on the puzzle page rather than just buried in a FAQ somewhere. Actually, I think this would be an excellent idea, as it would give one authoritative source.

The funny thing about this is that I was very meticulous to get the spelling from my source exactly right, not knowing that spelling was going to work against me.

Sploofus Editor
Sploofernatural (Editor)  
Sat, 19th Apr '08 11:11 PM

Just so you know, about six editors are discussing the fine points of this situation right now. We may not come up immediately with a permanent resolution, but don't think we're ignoring this and all of your opinions.

larrybus
Larrybus  (Level: 307.4 - Posts: 383)
Sat, 19th Apr '08 11:19 PM

I have no problem with making the Wikipedia article heading the primary official answer, although I personally had a problem using "Ny-Ă…lesund". But other terms, like "Four Corners Monument", appear within Wikipedia articles, also.

I would suggest making the official answer list reasonably short. I know it's impossible to anticipate all of the possible spelling variations, let alone all of the name combinations that could be generated by hundreds or thousands of people using different sources. And if someone has an answer, they should be able to check Wikipedia for the official spelling before they enter their guess. Hopefully, most Sploofusers know and use Wiki anyway. And as time goes by, WTHAI players will do it automatically. Just post that Wiki is the official source for names and spelling prominently on the puzzle pages, maybe even a link to Wikipedia.

But allowing some sort of arbitration after the fact for at least a while longer also seems fair, and that's what's been happening in a large percentage of WTHAIs anyway.



Sploofus Editor
Sploofusmaximus (Editor)  
Sun, 20th Apr '08 12:53 AM

Well with the unique answers you all have been coming up with, the lists of answer possibilities are getting increasingly longer! There's one comping up with 57 answer possibilities! I'm glad most of you are enjoying the puzzles (except Smaug) - even with the problems being encountering. We appreciate your input and suggestions along with your patience!

Sploofus Editor
Sploofizz (Editor)  
Sun, 20th Apr '08 1:18 AM

Just FYI - there are currently about 50 WTHAI's in the hopper which we cannot change or add to, so any rulings we decide upon about spelling, etc. cannot really go into full effect until after that queue gets played down. And we are definitely still doing case by case arbitration, during this testing period.

We don't want folks to feel slighted, but this IS Beta testing. There are bound to be difficulties. You all volunteered to do this knowing there would be bugs to work out.

larrybus
Larrybus  (Level: 307.4 - Posts: 383)
Sun, 20th Apr '08 3:07 AM

Let me pre-emptively solve the 57-possible-answer WTHAI coming up. It's "H. J. Heinz Company" or "Henry J. Heinz", right?



nelly
Nelly  (Level: 172.0 - Posts: 1167)
Sun, 20th Apr '08 8:06 AM

lol Larrybus. Obviously the editors can't be spending all their time checking for spellings as well as alternative wording etc so I think using Wiki would be fair enough,as long as it is clearly stated. I entered an incorrect spelling for a WhoTHAI - Count Douku instead of Count Dooku, by the time I had gone to Wiki to check the spelling, someone else had entered it correctly. There were plenty of 'Douku' spellings that came up - but they were mainly blogs etc. It was my lunch hour - otherwise I'd have checked Wiki first before giving away the answer.

ehodgson
Ehodgson  (Level: 136.8 - Posts: 64)
Sun, 20th Apr '08 8:47 AM

Why isn't the correct answer just the one the creator of the puzzle says it is? I can say I've spelled a certain word this way or that way all my life so I should be right.

All this angst and guilt over taking points from someone else is getting pathetic.

kaufman
Kaufman  (Level: 256.8 - Posts: 3936)
Sun, 20th Apr '08 9:46 AM

Ed's point of view has a lot of merit -- just put it in proper perspective and go from there. However, I'm sure some of us will get bored and/or frustrated by a contest in which "the decisions of the judges are arbitrary, capricious and final" ... I know I don't watch nearly as much boxing or figure skating as I used to

ehodgson
Ehodgson  (Level: 136.8 - Posts: 64)
Sun, 20th Apr '08 10:04 AM

I agree there is no easy answer, but, there must be a "right" answer. The decision of the editor must be final whether we agree with it or not. The editor had a definite answer in mind when creating the puzzle and that is the "correct" solution.

How many times have you seen a word in Word Rounds you think is not correct? We don't stop the presses to ask for a replacement question, we just accept it and move on.

lisap369
Lisap369  (Level: 61.1 - Posts: 992)
Sun, 20th Apr '08 11:16 AM

Ok Ed.. you get the award for creepiest avatar to date

Sploofus Editor
Sploofizz (Editor)  
Sun, 20th Apr '08 11:19 AM

Ehodgon's point was also discussed in the Editors' Forum: WPs, Trivia Squares, and Ker-Blunks all have single acceptable answers which may not be the way you spell the word, but it is the way the author spelled it and therefore the only acceptable answer in that puzzle.

Why should WTHAI be any different?

The devil's advocate answer is..the purpose of the game. The purpose is to identify the location. If the player knows the location they should get credit for the win, even if they spelled it differently or identified the rock formation instead of the city and country.

There is no practical solution to accepting EVERY possible answer, so the question becomes, how do we state the rules to make it clear and uncontestable. We really don't want this "I stole her points, give them to her anyway!" and "I got it first, why didn't I get credit?" to constantly come up!

So far rule-wise we are mostly agreeing that the wiki article that most closely aligns to the photo is the acceptable spelling; the editors will be more consistent with correct answers, always including feature + city and county/state/country.

Features we are considering asking for Justin to upgrade are possibly hiding other people's guesses (so no one can steal someone's idea) and having a message that tells you if you guessed exactly what someone else already guessed (and not deducting it from the number of guesses you get to make).

How does that seem? Fair? Doable? Sufficient?

chickfbref1
Chickfbref1  (Level: 120.7 - Posts: 2012)
Sun, 20th Apr '08 11:22 AM

The most equitable solution is to just give me all the points. That's fair.

Me.

papajensai
Papajensai  (Level: 193.1 - Posts: 1025)
Sun, 20th Apr '08 11:51 AM

"Features we are considering asking for Justin to upgrade are possibly hiding other people's guesses (so no one can steal someone's idea) and having a message that tells you if you guessed exactly what someone else already guessed (and not deducting it from the number of guesses you get to make).

How does that seem? Fair? Doable? Sufficient?"

That's brilliant. I can't see any new problem, and I think it solves many.


eesusbejesus
Eesusbejesus  (Level: 75.0 - Posts: 3645)
Sun, 20th Apr '08 11:52 AM

Noooooooooooo, don't hide other people's guesses. Even if I don't know who it is, I still enjoy entering "Smaug," "Smaug's Mom," etc. If Smaug can't at least be offended by seeing my guesses, then I really don't think the game will be as enjoyable. When we first had this game on Sploofus, I think we had unlimited guesses. I used to sit and giggle over some of the puzzles where everyone was stuck and we would just have fun coming up with the most outlandish answers, some of which included other players. As "untrivial" as that may seem, I would really hate to lose even more contact with my fellow sploofusers. 2.0 seems very non-community oriented anyway. Please don't make it even more so.

garrybl
Garrybl  (Level: 279.5 - Posts: 6641)
Sun, 20th Apr '08 12:01 PM

I agree with NOT hiding the other guesses.
When we have a limited number of shots what is not right (from other's guesses) is very relevant to us.
Plus that way we get to see some more sophomoric humor (sorry sophomores!) and why hide that?

nelly
Nelly  (Level: 172.0 - Posts: 1167)
Sun, 20th Apr '08 12:17 PM

I agree with Lodi and Barry. Although I could see it as a solution to some problems, it would take away the fun element of the game for me. Also, it would make me feel as if I was sitting at home playing on my own, rather than enjoying and sharing frustrations with friends. I might just as well look at a puzzle in a newspaper.
Sorry, I can't come up with the perfect solution despite racking my brains!
Karen

papajensai
Papajensai  (Level: 193.1 - Posts: 1025)
Sun, 20th Apr '08 1:36 PM

Okay, that's a problem I didn't see. I take back my endorsement.

gypsylady
Gypsylady  (Level: 142.7 - Posts: 6057)
Sun, 20th Apr '08 2:21 PM

I agree with Karen! It would be kind of boring guessing by yourself. Seeing the other names inspires you to keep searching. Not seeing them would make you feel like you were playing alone.

Marilyn...

pepperdoc
Pepperdoc  (Level: 152.5 - Posts: 4286)
Sun, 20th Apr '08 2:56 PM

Ohh. I hadn't thought about HIDING everyone's guesses...If you do that, where will I steal my ideas???

Other than the silly stuff that gets guessed, which I like a lot, it's interesting to see what track everyone is trying. On a couple of WTHAI, you could tell that a few people were getting into the right ballpark but hadn't bingoed yet. It's kind of fun to watch or be part of the race to the finish.

eesusbejesus
Eesusbejesus  (Level: 75.0 - Posts: 3645)
Sun, 20th Apr '08 4:39 PM

If we get even further isolated in 2.0, it will be like going to the bar but everyone has their own enclosed booth. Every now and then you might run into someone on their way to or in the bathroom and say "Oh hey, I didn't realize you were here. How have you been? Remember when we all used to belly up to the bar and hang out and laugh and make fun of Smaug? Yeah, those were the good old days. Ok, well, see ya. I'm going back to my booth."

kimoira
Kimoira  (Level: 201.7 - Posts: 1190)
Sun, 20th Apr '08 5:01 PM

No don't hide the guesses- some of us do bother to check them so as not to duplicate an answer. Having the program tell you that something has already been exactly guessed makes sense though especially when there are tons of guesses lasting for hours.


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